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More like the sub knows he wont get another job from you so why bother doing it right. Nonetheless, Bill told the guy what he wanted, several times (thats “taking control,” no?), he didn’t get it, and that = broken contract I think.
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Guys,
As a fellow looking to have a house built for me in the next few years, I get very worried when I hear stories like that.
I wish Granddad had taught me the trade so I could keep a better eye out for that sort of thing.
FB
*
Scott, My point is that this would never happen on one of my jobs! I take control... And not just a phone call! In my experience people think they can save alot of money by calling out all the subs, but it almost always ends with poor quality or in court!
Yes he did get taken advantage of and the sub should be held accountable... but as I see it, its a loosing battle in court almost always. I may be wrong but that is how I see it .... Mark
*Blue, the guy is waiting to see if he gets paid for the 60 loads. After that comes the bill for hauling it away. Joe H
*Bill...That's the craziest story I'll ever hear about being b out of control!!!!Amazing that b both of you got that far off base repeatedly day after day after day after day!!!!Did you ever think of b going to the jobsite during the work day?????????What a tough lesson for you to learn.near the stream, hoping you atleast take lunch at the site from now on or lose your job temporarily some how!aj
*Amen Blue....I did not want to say it so bluntly, but YES an education cost money no matter where you get it. GO TO THE SITE WHILE THEY ARE THERE! LOOK ANGRY(or at least intelligent about what they are doing) learn what you are doing or pay for your education.
*Keith.. being of slight stature, and not real anxious to argue with backhoes... i usually go to the site and ask some real polite questions.. like why are you doing it this way?how come you are bringing fill onto my site without prior authorization and proper documnetation...and i work real hard at keeping the volume turned down and the sarcasm gone far away..not that the LOOK REAL MAD don't work , course it does... i just like to get in their line of site and stay there till we come to an understanding... strictly business.....
*Aj,I guess I might agree with you if I thought the job was out of control.I can hear you now (or at least I think I can), HOW CAN YOU SAY THE JOB Wasn't OUT OF CONTROL, LOOK AT THIS MESS! THAT NEVER HAPPENED TO ME CAUSE I'M ON SITE ALL OF THE TIME!I say this in response. Have you ever been rear ended while driving a Pinto? Probably not, because you wouldn't be posting if you were. At the very least you'd still be there steaming lobsters...My analogy is this. Is the guy that got rear ended while driving a Pinto out of control? I contend he was not. There are things he could have done to prevent the accident, like not driving a Pinto, or like not driving at all. Are these choices his fault? Maybe so, maybe not. Not everyone that drove a Pinto died in a fiery crash, in fact, few did. Some people liked their Pintos and had good luck with them.The are assumptions made by every one of us each day no matter how many times we say that we never assume. You assume that I didn't visit the job site during the day, but I did. Did I visit the job site enough to prevent this from happening? No. Could I have? Possibly. Was it feasible? No.You say that we both got off base, but I don't think that's true either. Clearly he knew my intentions. That isn't being off base, that's cheating.Frankly there is no lesson to be learned here. No matter how much you are on site, you can't prevent expensive mistakes. Even if you decide to build you own house stick by stick, something stupid can happen, like nailing your hand to a truss and then falling off a ladder (this actually happened!). A person makes a choice based on experience and the information available when the decision is made. I will not choose the same sub for foundation work (perhaps this is the lesson?), but I will not and can not spend every minute on site. For those of you that say you are on site looking over the shoulder of the sub every minute, I guess I would contend that most of your time might in fact be better spent elsewhere. If you can't trust your subs, get some you can trust for God's sake. If they make mistakes, that's one thing, if they cheat, that's another. It seems that some of what I'm seeing here is not really advice as much as it is contractors rubbing their hands together saying to themselves "Good, another one failed at building their own home, next time they'll come crawling back to me just like they are supposed to!" But it's not going to happen. Whether or not there is risk, I like doing this, there is nothing like it!Thanks everyone,Bill C. Smith(a Steppenwolf)
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I think everyone is being a bit harsh here. Bill told the guy to STOP. He didn't stop. What does it matter if he did it over the phone or at the site? The contractor did things that the person who was paying him asked him specifically, in advance, NOT TO DO.
When I do work, if I make a mistake I correct it AT MY COST. Thats all there is to it. I make furniture: lets say someone orders a table with a 32" x 72" top. Do I just, on a whim, decide to make the top 24" x 60"? And then charge the customer more to fix it? Of course not. Should the customer have to visit my shop every few hours to make sure I've not just started ignoring the plans and building whatever I want? Come on...its ridiculous. Its tax time now, should we all be down to the accountants office every few minutes to make sure they've transferred the right amounts from the paperwork we've given them to the forms we are paying them to fill out?
When you hire someone to do work you should expect to get what you are paying for.
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Hotsawdust,
Too bad there's not more of us in this world.
*All I can say, is this type of thing has never happened to me. On site, off site on the phone...... period, never been there. I don't think it's because I'm lucky, and I don't think 60 loads of anything could slip past me. His whole affair just blows my mind. Stop means stop, or there will be a fight. Does'nt anyone say this is my job and my site and you'll do it this way by god or someone won't get a penny?????????? And I can find someone to replace you who will do it MY WAY, you should feel lucky to be here. "those who can, do, those who can't have office jobs"
*Though I think there are several versions like "Those who can, do, those who can't teach" or the one you offer, the real one is probably more like "those who can, do, those who can't, say they can."The difficulty with saying no pay till it's done my way around here is called mechanics liens. It's a little tough to get good title until these little affairs are settled. My guess is that this guy (& his sis) could slip at least 30 loads in on ya. Just hope he doesn't have relatives living in your area.Bill
*Bill....If you read your own post....Day one...hole is not deep enough....you do not reach your sub...My next step would have been to drive to his house...if he was not there...I would be on his tail the next AM and at my site till we both met eye to eye and had an understanding...If I had to be somewhere else, I would have called in an emergency and stuck to my need to straighten out my b two problems with my sub. one being a lack of communication and two being a mistake.Bill...It would not have gone any farther b period.near the stream,ajI will agree to politely disagree with you sir...and I have b no problem with you being your own general,after all it is only affecting you, not me.
*Aj,Certainly you've been around long enough to know that everything that seems like it might develop into a problem simply doesn't. I would go so far as to say that a good portion of everything that I have seen done (at least 10-20%) starts out wrong. You make choices. Some times you are right and some times you are wrong. I am not a bad communicator, in fact I am good communicator, but I am not perfect. The person listening has a responsibility to be honest, or get over his ego trip, or whatever. It takes two.I called the sub and left a message saying the hole wasn't deep enough. Twice. I can honestly say that I thought that was enough, but it wasn't. More fool me. Even with the mistake, I am on budget. You say that if you would not have been able to reach him you would have called in an emergency (?), but how would you have done that, if you read your own post, you weren't able to reach him.Yes, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Hindsight is 20-20. As a matter of fact it should be 5-5 or better. I have admitted that I could have done things differently, but I would have had to refuse to believe what I was told. It's impossible to do business with anyone that way, and I won't. Obviously, you can if you wish. That affects you not me.I am not going to stand beside some guy driving a nail and ask him each time he strikes it whether or not he intends to drive it home as agreed, and repeat same until the job is complete. Sooner or later my head will mistakenly replace that of the nail, and justifiably so.Yes, my actions affect me. Do I still perceive some hand rubbing down by the stream? They would do better cracking a lobster!Near the TV, watching basketball.Bill
*Bill...I'mb Not talking about b watchingthe subs work (ie drive nails)...I am talking about b controlling a site...b No onewould have poured that footing on b my site at a b known wrong elevationb period .Near the stream, not needing a whole page to explain my point...aj
*I still don't know how this could have happened. There must be more to the story than " I told him to stop and he brought in 60 loads of fill dirt behind my back."And if you pay him for the job that he didn't do just because you're afraid of a mechanics lien (which can be removed) then you've decided to accept the job as is so just be happy with it.It looks like your polite confrontation techinque didn't work. I'm a nice guy too but sometimes it's okay and necessary to chew somebody a new orifice. A little yelling and screaming works pretty well sometimes.
*Maybe you just think you don't need a whole page. You are splitting hairs. The two are one in the same. I would think by now you would have realized you can't know anything when it comes to building. I admit there are people that think they do.How near the stream are you? Come up for air.Bill
*What you seem to be saying is that you can't imagine how this happened, so it didn't. He didn't bring in 60 loads. He said he did. It was more like 15 - 20.How do you remove a mechanics lien where you live? How much will it cost you? Have you ever done it? Using your logic, you couldn't have because I don't believe that you have.How do you know if was polite? How do you know it didn't work? Have you asked how it was settled?I'm sorry I got you guys so stirred up. Next time I won't post my mistakes. I'll just say I do everything right like so many of the rest of you seem to. I think talking about mistakes can help someone from making one. No harm was intended.Continued good luck,Bill
*Cousin.....don't let those bastards get on your case, especially aj, resident fen shui master.....it was fun being self righteous at your expense.. but enough is enough....the reason so many of us jumped on you is cause we already been to that school...it took a while to figger that not every one was going to do what they say... and that not every instruction i gave was clear and concise...most of us who were attempting to give constructive criticism (and aj was too, u no..) are hands-on type contractors.... one of my pet peeves is listening to homeowners complain to me that their foundation is screwed up , or they thought they were going to have a dry basement, or they didn't know why they had a charge for $10,000 worth of fill...yada, yada, yada..... i don't get mad at them... i try to point out that most of what they are describing is the responsibility of the General Contractor.. and they reply that the GC told them , it was the Digger's Fault.. so we go thru the litany..did the GC, write the specs for the sitework?did the GC provide for the elevation benchmarks, did he verify that the lot was properly staked out (subject to a survey).. was the GC supervising the excavation? if unsuitable material was found , did he authorize it to be dug out and compacted fill brought in to replace it?the answer is no, no, no,, and no... so i say ...well why did you use that GC? those are all part of his job.....well"his price was cheaper".. or he said "that's why we have an Excavation Sub"...i think what the guys were pointing out to you is that YOU are the GC... and you can be the kind that sits in the office and runs his business with a phone.. and contracts... or you can be the kind that gets out there and takes charge... there is room for all kinds... those of us who were criticizign you are the second kind.........i gather from your background description thta you are still paying the mortgage with another job.. and thinking about becomming a builder full time..so welcome to the brotherhood/sisterhood... but wether you do it with a phone and contracts,.... or you do it by physical presence and direct supervision, you have to develop a technique for maintaining command and control of your job..hey, cousin Bill, i want to thank you for posting this, it is only when we focus (when I focus) on our mistakes that we learn from them..come on over to the Shed and have a 'Gansett with aj & me, and Ryan... those guys have got a mllion stories about all their mistakes....b me... i'm a Smith, as you know, we don't make mistakes
*Bill,You must have known you'd get some heat or criticism or chuckles or something when you posted this, and I'll give you credit for doing it. We all make mistakes, but it takes some guts to tell the world about them.I've got two lawsuits going down the drain right now, going to lose because there's not enough money involved to keep the lawyers doing their jobs. It sucks to get screwed, but sometimes you just do.Maybe your post will save someone else a similar misery. It'll get better. Good luck.MD
*Thanks cuz.But dag nab it communication was not the problem. Think about it. The guy wanted to sell fill. He could have trucked it in at nite if he had wanted to. The simple fact is that he knows he has some leverage no matter how hard I stamped my feet, made the veins bulge in my shiny forehead, and repeatedly said "period". There are times when that may work (like with my kids), but it doesn't work well with someone that is doing something dishonest and knows it. He expects that response. My god, I bet he sees it a couple times a day.My response was to record phone calls (I live in Iowa, it's legal as long as 1 person knows in civil matters) and take pictures. He eventually agreed to go away for about $1,200 more than his original bid. Sad indeed, but he knows what it costs the GC to delay and go to court. I am willing to accept the settlement because it's worth it to get him out of my hair. You do what works. Will alone does not keep the airplane aloft. Thanks again, by the way would you be looking for some foundation work in my area? Smiths can ALWAYS be trusted.Bill
*Bill...When I put the "brakes on" in my truck, it stops....I do not ask the brakes to stop the truck, then see if it stops the next evening...We all make mistakes...my point is...I would have changed my tactics after day one and mistake one...Day two would have been a new ball game with a sub that was now under direct control or he would have been replaced immediately.I'll explain myself in a few more languages if I can find a translation software...And yes, I make mistakes...I showed up once to supervise a sub clearing a lot for me...fifteen minutes early just to be ready for him...Well, he had been there for an hour already since 6:30 am and not only was he less than ten minutes from completion, but he also had cleared all the small trees that I was going to remove for no additional cost....What a great day that was...But I was still PO'ed that he worked without my supervision....Yes I made a mistake...But I also hire the best, And That's my golden rule...Hire the best...Control your site...Do not allow work to continue when the fan hits the sh*t...near the stream, training new arguing homeowner attack lobsters...ajPS...when they come to get you...boil them and eat them....b or be eaten!...you always have choices man...
*Thanks MD,I posted it so other people could read it and say to themselves "I guess it could be worse". I was honestly surprised by the people that seemed to want to pile on. I forget that some people only feel good if someone else feels bad. Oh well, they feel good now too.Good luck in court, you'll need it (talk about loads of fill).Bill
*Aj,Post on the day your brakes don't work. You will understand what I mean. Someone will tell you that they installed a parachute on the back of their truck, and you were an idiot not to have thought of that before.Best of luck, and I mean that.Crabs are easier to teach, but man do they itch..Bill
*Smiths are foolish with their money too!near the stream,aj
*We are so different...I just replaced brakes on my main money making truck that has to be dependable for the next 16 weeks...The brakes weren't totally gone...but I didn't want to be doing them in season when they are supposed to be working for me...not me for them...We are different...near the stream, sending you the crabs as you desire,aj
*Ok Bill...truce....time to work differently but drink the same beer....the next few are on me anytime...near the stream and nearly 70 degrees and sunny!!!aj
*Agreed. Instead of buying me beer, just send me the money. I am a Smith after all.BTW, didn't they film "Deliverance" in the Adirondacks? Have a good weekend.Bill
*Indeed we are. Did you replace the engine and tranny too? Just to be safe? Some one will tell you that you should have. Someone will tell you they have two engines in case one fails. Someone will say there is a need for three. They will be right in certain circumstances.Crabs trained, last seen driving pickups toward the mountains.Bill
*Bill...You're right buddy...drive the truck till the whole thing just falls apart daily along side the road....ten days in a row...After all that is the right way to have a foundation poured...ten days in a row....This thread....indescribable....near the stream,ajAnd the Deliverence thing...Whats that all about??????...I suppose my Momma where's Army boots and and and and and so there AJ!!!!...cause I said so....Oh well....You're the man....the Smith man....almost a Fusco...but you'll need to add graphics...maybe Joe will lend you a hand...Time to release b the lobsters....
*Day nineteen....spent the day defending your right to have had difficult time being in control of a jobsite....I wonder how well things are going on the site while you spend the day here at breaktime....Just the kind on GC we all want.....near the stream, going back out to enjoy the rest of the sunny day here....not worrying about the placement of one nail...not today...not tomorrow.
*Sorry, Aj,I was joking like I thought you were with the Smith thing.Again sorry,Bill
*I am sorry to have made you angry. Bill
*I may be WAY off base here, but I think most of the heat you are taking here is because all of us, before we WERE the GC sub'd for a GC that did not know their ass from a hole in the ground. And blamed all the things that went wrong on the incompetent subs(us). I see you as a "side job sammy" as may others. And I also think there is more to the story.With that said, you are probably a good guy who I would'nt mind drinking and having a few laughs with, I just would'nt want to work for you. I have many friends like that. Are you coming to the bash at Petes this summer? Keith CPS. and get off the computer for a while, you have a site that needs some attention!!!!!!!
*It could be that it it impossible to prove who knows their ass from a hole in the ground, but I think most everyone knows an asshole when they see one. I think it is worse to be an asshole than not to know the difference between your ass and a hole in the ground, and worse yet to be both. I am neither. You can believe me or not. It's my guess that you won't. If you READ what has been posted here, I think you will be able to tell who the asses are. They make assumptions and call people names. When they do that for a while I respond in kind rather than turn my cheek. If you can't tell the difference from the posts you are right about one thing. You shouldn't be working for me. How do you know what needs to be done on my site? Rough grade is done. Plumbing is in the ground. Perk test is done. Electricity is ready. House to be set Wednesday. As I said I know all of my subs from here on out except the roofer. I make the cabinets and do trim and half the cabinets are made. Nothing to be done today that hasn't been done. Seems you assume more than I ever did. I may be way out of line, but did you job dog run away from being kicked too much and you've decided to take it out on someone you don't know? Stop taking pot shots at people and maybe you can work for your friends again. I do. Maybe a lot of your friends can't trust the work you do.Some of you may have scared off some of the people that were participating in the thread on a civil basis, and I was warned about you in email. The behavior here has been rediculous, but I've seen it before on the internet. People decide they rule and anyone that disagrees with them is not welcome. That's the bad thing about posting anything, anywhere, but to those of you who have emailed, don't let it bother you. The best way to counter the effects of bullies is to take your beating. Eventually they leave you alone, and you can meet and talk to the people that you want to. Having said that, sure, lets have a beer and forget the whole thing. BillP.S. Look after your job dog before you start beating your wife!!!!!!
*they'll call you "loads of fill Bill"
*Amongst other not so nice names I've been called here, it seems yours at least shows some humor and intelligence. But actually it should be no fill Bill, because it disappeared. I was loads of fill Bill only for a day or so. Or how about billed for no fill Bill. Or maybe just..Fill
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At least JLC has the integrity to delete posts and kill threads from Diy'ers and homeowner types. Nuff said!
*
Or maybe just
Filly Billy
View Image
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Ok, I'm rereading, and realizing a few more things that need to be clarified:
Day 2 footers poured already. Concrete trucks don't pour footers by themselves in an instant. Were they formed on day one, or did they do that before they poured. How long did that take. How many yards of concrete was placed, how long did that take and where were you?
Day 3 wall forms up, same questions as #2, how long did it take to form and why did you not at least leave a note saying STOP, seeing how you are never there.
Day 4 walls stripped ( when were they poured I'm wondering) Secretary says they'll take care of it.
Where were you when they poured( are you starting to see a pattern here), are little knomes working at night or what.
Day 5 OK,so now I see that you are getting your jobsite progress from the neighbor, telling you about the dozer in the garage. You are REALLY on top of this job huh.
I'm not a name caller, and I have really gotten a kick out of this thread. I love it when someone sees that a CG gets a fee for nothing, right. I would stick with your day job and leave the building to us. We work 12-14 hour days so this stuff does not happen , and so that there is enough left to feed the family. Man, I love this .
*
Are you speaking from personal experience as a diy'er? Sounds more like snuff said. PERIOD. (did I say period like a real GC?)
*I never said that GCs don't do anything, did I? The thing I've learned from all of you guys is that you really feel threatened by someone who GCs for himself. Hey I suppose that's natural, but my god do you have to be such a jerk? If you don't love this why do you want to turn the knife so many times?You're not a name caller? Get real. Read YOUR posts. What prompts you to jump down my throat for basically no reason? Then you completely blow a gasket when I defend myself?I can tell you love it. I catching it for all of the jobs you didn't get.
*Where is the hate coming from Luka? We are all people here. What have I done but defend myself against blind hatred? What enjoyment can you all get from acting like a pack?
*
Listen, you are the part timer GC who walked into a room full people doing it for our living and started whining about your problems. We did not seek you out. You just don't like hearing the truth. So just go hack together your new bigger house with a walkout from your vast capital gains on your last house, so you don't have to pay taxes. Bug off.
*
HAHAHAHAHA
I don't hate you, Bill. I was having fun with the name bit. I don't like mob mentality, no matter what the focus of the mob is. I wouldn't join a lynch mob if you paid me. BOTH sides here have said a lot of things that were not needed, derogatory and inflammatory. A lot of things that I would be ashamed of, had I said them. I don't see a right and wrong side in this issue.
That being said, I DO like to have fun with words, and I can't see quelching my sense of humor just because someone might think I was joining in. If it'll make you feel better, you can call me screwka lewka or something.
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*I gotta say I don't know why there's so much hostility toward Bill. So, he's not an experienced GC? So he's screwed up his own house? He's allowed. I'm not a mechanic but I just put new head gaskets on my wife's car. Now the "check engine" light comes on all the time and I've got a trouble code that tells me the mixture is too lean on one side of the engine. I screwed up my car and I'm allowed to damn it!!! No mechanic is gonna tell me I can't screw up my own car if I want too!!! I'm with Bill...I'm gonna burn the damn car!!! That will show you.By the way, anybody know anything about Fords?
*Model ? Carb or injected ? Did you do the minimum teardown or did you take EVERYTHING from there up apart to clean, rebuild, and/or reassemble ? Having replaced the head gaskets and now having a new, too-lean condition, the first thing I would suspect would be the head gaskets. Are you sure you got them on correctly ? On some models you can put them on, and they look correct, but a hole in the gasket will be sitting in a place it shouldn't. (Usualy the gasket is just flipped over from where it should be.) If you didn't get the head bolts torqued well enough, you could even have a leak.Before you go taking those heads back off, get your small propane torch out. With it turned on, but not lit, and the car running, aim the torch all along any injector tubes, and around the body of the injector, as well as along the edges of the intake manifold. If the car starts running better when you are doing this, you have found a vacum leak. Plug the leak, (new gasket, or tighten bolt, whatever), and you should find your lean condition corrected. The procedure is the same for a carb, but you don't have the runner tubes to go over, just the carb body and the intake manifold edges. Some people prefer to use wd-40 for the test, but if you find a leak, you may have to clean up the mess in order to fix the leak.If you don't find a vacum leak this way, that doesn't mean you still don't have a leak. Also, a lean condition is most commonly caused by a vacum leak, but it can be just a simple adjustment of the carb/injector.You could also have left a vacum hose or two unconnected. You could have cracked a vacum sensor module. There could be leaky hose/s. Possibly even a leaky dashpot on your brakes. Etc etc.
*
"House to be set Wednesday" hey wait a minute. Is this a freakin" trailer house? C'mon, you gotta be kidding me. Manufactured housing, modular home or whatever you want to call it? That's not being a GC building a house at all. I'm gonna laugh myself silly.
*
It wouldn't take much laughin!
It's panelized, now I'll duck again.
Oops almost forgot to say your magic GC word. PERIOD.
No wonder you don't work for friends. You probably don't have any.
*hey keith, you're starting to sound like a bully , reign it in son,........i think we all have made mistakes in supervision, or judgement of what we thought we could rely on from subs.. or whatever...i'm thankful to cousin Bill for sharing something with us that for most of us is a not even painful memory... but if you dig deep enough and are honest... you'll remember the last time you screwed up.... and the time before that... and the time before that...and then you'll think ahead to the next tie it's going to happen... and it will..b unless of course, you're a Smith, hah, hah, hah
*Sorry Luka. You're right I've said some things I shouldn't have. It's hard not to. I'll tell you what, I'll end it here. I won't post any more (though I did really want to respond to one or two more things down there).best of luck and sorry again, in fact sorry to everyone else that I've offended.Bill
*AWWRIGHT BILL !!!!View ImageYou're right, I've been there, and it is very difficult to walk away leaving some things unsaid, or unresponded to. I did it just the other day for the first time in a long time. It wasn't any easier than last time, for some reason. LOL You'd think that as you got older it would get easier, but I find that it is getting easier to stick my own foot in my mouth, and harder not to stick the other guy's foot in his mouth. View ImageAnyway, c'mon over here and belly up to the bar and buy me 'nother drink. hahaha. I'm getting tired of that bitter stuff, I'll take a 50/50 cranberry juice and fresh orange juice.
*This is a curious thread compared to another that started a day earlier with a question about using TJIs for roof rafters. Then JimL chimed in with his experience as a owner/builder using them for his roof structure. He seems like a nice guy, BillC seems like a nice guy. Two guys GCing their own projects. One of them is being screwed on his job site & treated like s**t on this web site. Curiouser and curiouser Joe H
*Thanks Luka:Did suspect a leak but didn't know about the propane test.Yes, I had everyting cleaned and the heads reconditioned. Everything except the injectors.Heads torques according to specs, I'm sure the gaskets are positioned correctly, I'm not such a great mechanic that I'm confident enough to miss small details. I pain over every bolt.I'll definately try your trick for finding that leak.
*Bill,Thought I'd add my two cents here. What triggered the negative responses you got on this thread? I've got a couple of thoughts on that.Most contractors on this board,(and most in general I believe) have worked their way from the bottom up. That is to say they didn't start out as a GC right out of the box. They paid their dues laboring, sweating, making that big decision to strike out on their own, with no safety net. You are trying it from the top down. You've been involved in building a couple of homes, and you think "hey, contracting is pretty fun, line up some subs, check the job each day, write the checks, I could make a living at this." All while drawing your salary and benefits in your day job. Don't be so amazed a some of their reactions.Also, you have insisted you have nothing to learn from this except that the decision to go with that sub was wrong. That comes across as a very arrogant attitude for someone as obviously green as you are. You have lots to learn.Think about the trouble you've had, and then try to imagine a third variable you haven't had to deal with. The customer. You are the GC and customer. If you had a customer you would probably be eating the cost of removing the footings, backfill, you wouldn't be able to make a decision about changing the entrance to appease the neighbor,so easily. As a GC, you sometimes have to fight the subs on behalf of the homeowner, and sometimes the homeowner on behalf of the subs. Theres more to running a building business than writing checks and making phone calls. Maybe that's the lesson you need to learn.John
*Well, that was well said , John, and i think it set just the right tone.. i know Bill swore off responding, because it was degenerating into nothingness.. but you did offer some nice insights ..
*Nicely spoken John. Couldn't have said it better. Anyone who thinks they know it all should aughta rethink their position.
*John...great post...Another point...We all read these posts from our own perpective and I think our perspective is way different than Bill's...I think Bill originally posted his ten day ordeal to illustrate how impossibly bad his sub was...It never dawned on him that we would read it as an example of his own inability to manage and control his jobsite to his and "his customer's" satisfaction.Of course the factor all exhibit from time to time, "I'm not wrong, they are," is also at play here to(o)....What happened to Fusco anyway...is his log in name Smith or something now??And my bone of contention was not to do with "how many years I worked my way up through the system"...mine was the simple rule of "burned once, lesson learned, burned twice, three times, ten times..it might just be impossible for that lesson to be learned!!!...Was an experienced GC necessary?...I don't think so. Every single one of my customers would have successfully stopped that out of control jobsite by day three...End of story...Sorry for your troubles Bill but you were the ultimate enforcer...The GC...Just my take on this...I could be wrong...near the stream, glad the rest of the project is smoothly sailing along!aj
*John and AJ hit my feeling also, I just was not as nice at getting the point across. I'm just usually more outspoken on these things that's all. I think the communications was the problem. When verbal does'nt work you switch to nonverbal, wait at the sight, go to his place whatever it takes for a face to face conversation. Phone sometimes just don't cut it. I also wonder why the foundation sub seems to work for every other builder and nobody expressed any problems(he was recommended I'm assuming). But get on this job and he's trying to rip him off and sell him fill. It could be, or there could be more. But that poor guy can't defend himself here, and people don't generally go bad just like that. I'm done now....got to go try to find or make some friends....Bill said I did'nt have any. See ya
*Mr. Smith,After reading this little firestorm you started I feel I should keep my mouth shut- but I can't. I fear some sort of injury from the attempt.If you feel you want to become a builder and cannot look at your actions and decisions on a daily basis and ask (and I have a feeling this is a problem)"What did I learn today", "How can I do this better", you will be a liabilty to anyone you contract with. Clients and subs.If you can look at your experience and say I have nothing to learn from this--- I don't know what to write- this comes to mind. RATS LEARN FASTER!
*Bill...We love ya buddy...just don't try to build in our neck of the woods till ya iron out these little ten day goof ups...I hope you get pissed at all of this and figure out how to work with all your future subs in a way that always allows you, your sub and your client to feel great about having done business and more than willing to work together again...or just agree to disagree and go your own ways...lessons learned and noted...And be brave enough to walk back in here in the future and hang out with us all some more...We're tough sometimes, but we like come back kids to(O)!!!near the stream,aj
*wow man. Like let's just remember that we are on the INTERNET. It is very easy to vent and get mad and say things and yell and whatever when you are faced with nothing more than a computer screen. What a great place to release the tensions accumulated on a jobsite where everything seems to be going wrong. Just remember, you do not have to defend yourself to anyone. We as users define how intimate the exchange will be. We as users decide how personally to take the whole thing. My question is, who was more offensive, Breaktime participants or your subcontractor?My grandmother is 86 years old and she says to me that she learns something new every day.
*
I still say only contractors, auto mechanics and doctors do work that specifically been requested NOT TO BE DONE and then expect to be paid for it. Yeesh.
*
i By the way, anybody know anything about Fords?
Only that they are 'found on the road dead'
b everyday!
:-)
Whew! what a thread!
*Hey Keith,"At least JLC has the integrity to delete posts and kill threads from Diy'ers and homeowner types. Nuff said!"What the hell is that all about?Does that mean I shouldn't post here? Maybe someone should get rid of your posts!!!!!!Not a very nice ATTITUDE pal!Gaby
*hey , Mongoose boy, did yu put yur order in fer yur tee shirt yet,.. if yu woud only take care of business instead of thinkin keith was talkin 'bout yu...we already knew u were hopeless....talk about paranoid!
*fixed or repaired daily
*He got me cheesed with that post. I know it wasn't directed at me but it's not very encouraging for others either.Anyhooo...I got my order in a while ago. I hope they counted it. Maybe I should confirm eh!Gaby(Hopeless boy)
*
Sorry to whine, but I have to share my experience of the past 2 or so weeks.
I'm building my third house. This time I get to keep the capital gain on the sale of the old one because I've lived in it 2 years. Thus I'm going to build a bigger, better house with a walk out. I know it involves fill because of the slope in the land, but I wand side entry in the garage anyway.
Day one Sub digs, and I find the hole is 1 1/2 feet shallow. Darn, I figure. I'll have to get the guy out to dig some more. Give him a call. No response. Call again no response. left a message both times.
Day two, footings poured. Damn! Call him again. Leave angry message with secretary twice. No response. Do I have him dig them out?
Day three, Inspector's been there, wall forms are up. I call then drive over to see the guy at his office. No where around. Later on I get a call. He'll take care of everything, just wants me happy. We'll sweep some of the front yard off and build up the back yard behind the driveway which will now need to be filled more because of the added height.
Day four, forms off, I'm starting to realize how much fill were talking about. Yikes! I call him & talk to his wife, she says he's got it covered. They'll take care of it.
Day five, the guy's workers (none older than 20) are back filling! I'm told by a neighbor they were using a dozer in the garage! I call to ask if this is common for them. He's not around. I tell the secretary to stop everything until I get a call from him.
Day six, between noon and 5 supposedly 48 loads of foundry sand (sand used in casting metals) have been brought in to fill the driveway and garage! I call and ask the secretary what is going on, I asked them to stop yesterday! Side entrance into the garage will never work because there is no way to get acceptable slope from my drive to neighbor's yard. Neighbor's scared stiff. I tell him I will make it front entry.
Day seven, I get a call from the sub. I said it's front entry now because there is no way for the drive to work because it's a foot and a half high. He says he'll do anything to make me happy. I tell him I want to know how much he is going to charge me for the fill, and that it is hard to believe there are 48 loads there, delivered between noon and 5 the day before. He corrects me. There were 60 loads. He will get back to me with the tab.
Day 8. Nothing.
Day 9, I call, leave message. He calls back. The reason he didn't call me back with the figure is because his sister (she owns the trucking firm that moves his fill) hadn't sent him the total yet. I guess I can't ask for verification of the quantity of fill now, huh?
Day 10, today, I call. Secretary tells me "there out there working now" I ask what they're doing, she says "they're removing all of the extra fill since you won't be needing it for the drive next to the house. I tell her to get them on the radio and tell them not to move ANY of my fill until we get this settled. Too late. All fill is gone and the garage is still short a foot and a half of fill toward the rear.
He calls, tells me the cost so far. They are charging for the fill, but not for it's removal. I'm ballistic. Only a third of the fill would have been needed if they had dug the hole deep enough in the first place. He has already used the fill elsewhere. My garage still NEEDS fill. He needs to pour the spaces where the garage doors were to have been on the side and cut the spaces on the front. We are already $5,000 over budget with no flat work! I can honestly say I can't ever remember being this mad.
Oh, by the way. He poured the pad for the post in the middle of the third stall.
I got three good references on this guy, and he does work for everyone.
Anyone out there having a better day?
Bill
P.S. My plumber and electrician are on the site with smiles on their faces and everything they have done is perfect. Thank God there are some good people out there!
*Wow, What a story. You have got to be the most p/o'd person in the world today. And to think, this is the beginning of the job. Am I to assume you are doing the contracting on this house? Is this the first time running a project like this? I certainly am going to wish you better luck as this goes on.Is this sub only the excavator/foundation guy or are you going to shock me by telling me he's framing/finishing too? Man, I hope not.And to the referrals, were they from your friends or his? Not hard to believe I guess that you could miss some warning of some kind as to his work. Bummer. Sometimes, esp. in the foundation and grading work you will find that you need to be real clear (set grade and batter boards etc) with these guys. Some, will just do it how they wish and occasionally that just doesn't jive with the whole plan. "We can make it work" doesn't cut it on a custom, non tract house on anything but flat ground.I think you've seen enough and need to get a handle on this soon. best of luckI'm sure those guys are smiling. I did, until I thought about you. Best of better luck.
*I'm starting to get over it a little, but I know I'll be staring at the ceiling in bed tonite.No, he won't be doing the framing, let alone flat work. His entire foundation bid came in second, Because of A LOWER BID ON THE FLAT WORK! Can you believe it? I chose him because his total bid wasn't the lowest bid of the three, just like I was supposed to. Just goes to show you never get what you pay for, you always get more or less.All of my other subs are known to me, with the exception of roofing/guttering and as there are nothing but gables and 6/12 pitch, that should go much more smoothly than the foundation. I hope I didn't just jinx myself. Foundation work has always been the dicey part of the building process as far as I'm concerned. All of the other contracts are pretty much cast in stone, but around here the foundation contracts don't do anything but give them permission to do whatever they want and charge me for it. Why is that? Can't they assume some risk? Everyone else does.I would like to say that I learned something from this, but I'll be darned if I can think of what it might be. I can't seem to forget the fact that the entirety of my college tuition came to a smaller amount than what this jerk cost me.It's OK if you smile or laugh, thank god something good is coming of this! If you come across some guy with a bad attitude in the next week or so, assume it's me. Just be glad that bad things happen to other people sometimes too. Thanks for writing,Bill
*Bill:Wow - what a nightmare! That's why I try to spend as much time on-site with my subs as possible.If you i are going to pay him in full for his mistake I'd let him wait a couple months. Oh yea, and don't return his calls during the 2 months!
*hey, this the same driveway in your last post... the one you planned on ... and now the digger has it all screwed up?sorry, Bill, this is commonly referred to as a "failure to supervise"what does your contract say? how come you don't know how much this was going to cost? why is there extra fill comming in? how come you don't stop this job? what do the plans show? is there a septic system? town sewer? 1.5' off on grade is MAJOR problem...youshould know all your material quantities before the job starts and they should be part of the specs...there should be a bench mark that the digger is going by, even if its an ASSUMED grade.. at least it's your ASSUMED grade..until i'm out of the ground, i'm there all the time...i'll be the gopher, i'll be the rod man, i'll set grades, batter boards , coodinate with the neighbors, be the extra laborer... and when the foundation sub is there , so am i....i locate the window bucks, lay out the foundation bolt locations, check grade, go fer coffee... you name , i do it...some guys think i'm a PITA, others appreciate the help and the extra pair of eyes and having the decision maker right there...guess which ones i hire on the next job..once the foundation is stripped and we check grade and square, i start to relax.. but not beforethis is supposed to be your house... sounds like its your diggers idea of your house..fix it now or forget about it... you gotta know when to hold em, and when to fold em...sorry for your troubles, nobody deserves that ..
*No doubt you are right about supervision. Depth was set and marked prior to excavation.As I said there are no foundation contractors in my area which will supply what you might commonly refer to as a contract. It provides protection for the sub, but none for the builder. As I said, every other sub provides a contract which spells out performance. Maybe in your area the foundation subs are forced by market to provide that additional protection.Obviously I've been lucky in the past. I wish I was able to stay on site, but alas, I am not yet able to be a full time builder. Hopefully, within the next year or so..At least measurements come out right.Bill
*Same story different day. If you are the general, you must babysit...period! You set sub grade elevation, and when they get the first hoe load at the correct elevation, YOU SAY now make it this elevation everywhere..... period. If you are there and are shaking YOUR head NO.. they know they won't get paid. If you are not there it is there word against yours. I can trust all my subs, I'm on site alot, I'm reachable on a cell phone or at pager always. They also know not to assume much. I hope you can break free to be on your own soon, cause the after 5pm supervisors get a real reputation fast. When you do make it out ,the subs will be gunning to get you back, and your prices may be a bit high for awhile.
*Deja vu, Bill. We had similar type problems, only our contractor WAS there supervising. I know what those sleepless nights are like! Hope it goes better from here!
*Hate to sound like a sour apple Bill but thats typical for a homeowner playing general contractor!!!These subs know your not a professional and you get treated as so.. It's not right, I agree but YOU have to take control of the job as the general not the subs. Sorry Mark
*Um, I don't understand, are you going to vent that foundation or not !!!!!!
*Let me get this straight.He dumps 60 loads that you don't need, and then expects to get paid for them?!!!See you in court sonny!blue
*Chisel Head - "thats typical for a homeowner playing general contractor"? What??? No, that's typical of a homeowner being taken advantage of by a sub, otherwise known as fraud. There are laws to protect people from this kind of thing. Being treated as a professional has nothing to do with it.
*More like the sub knows he wont get another job from you so why bother doing it right. Nonetheless, Bill told the guy what he wanted, several times (thats "taking control," no?), he didn't get it, and that = broken contract I think.