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I’ve got a house under construction that has some pretty serious water problems. I’ll write more in the first post.
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The foundation was put in just after Thanksgiving last fall. It turned cold during the pour, with temps well below freezing. Don't really know if that has a lot to do with the problems I'm having or not. By the time I got a roof on the thing, there was about 3" of ice in most of the basement.
December and January were so cold that I couldn't install a sump pump. I got the thing hooked up sometime in February, an it's been running ever since. The basement floor has a ton of (Fairly tight) cracks in it. I suspect that there was water under the slab that froze and heaved the slab, and may have caused the cracks.
The biggest problem is that the basement has never dried out. When it rains, water runs in at several of the form ties. There is standing water all around the perimiter of the basement, all 4 sides.
I'm pretty sure there is field tile all around the perimiter, both inside and out - There are 3 black tiles running into the sump pit. One of them goes straight out towards the foundation, and 2 of them go left and right like they run around under the floor. That's what the foundation guy said he would do.
The sump pump cycles regularly, even though it's been pretty dry lately. The lot is flat as a board, but I did slope the ground away from the foundation on all sides. It's been backfilled to grade for over 6 weeks. There was a lot of backfill in before that, but it settled regularly.
I guess my question is where do I go from here ? I thought I had hired the best foundation guy in the area. He came and looked at the form ties leaking, and said that happened all the time. He suggested drilling around them and patching with hydraulic cement. The floor was wet when he was there, but I thought it might still be condensation or leftover moisture or something. The only options I can see here are to excevate all around the outside and see what's there, or start busting up the floor.
I really don't want to sue the concrete guy, as he's sort of a family friend. I imagine I'll have to approach him and ask him to pick up part or all of the cost of whatever repairs are necessary.
The interest on the construction loan is up to $18 per day, which doesn't thrill me. I need to figure out what to do soon, and get going on it. The house is drywalled and primed, waiting for a buyer. (It was a spec)
Any input would be appreciated.
*"looked at the form ties leaking, and said that happened all the time."Not around my area, NW Ohio. If for no other reason, they were supposed to be parged to keep water out, and keep the ties from rusting and breaking up the concrete from expansion.I'd get some independent experts in there to evaluate.
*What am I missing here? You poured the floor before the house was framed? On wet/frozen ground?
*I've never seen a basement floor that wasn't poured before the framing started. Maybe that's a regional thing ???The ground was definitely wet, but I'm not sure it was frozen. I was pretty busy during that time period, and work out of town. So I wasn't around when the work was done and don't remember all the details.
*Ron,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Does anybody else have water problems like you. What is the water table in your area. I worked on a Casino a couple of years ago and the water table in the area is only 3' below grade.
*Joe - The foundation has a black coating on the exterior. I don't know what kind it is, or how well it was put on. Typically around here the concrete is 100% finished before any framing starts. The foundation is only backfilled halfway up or so. (More on the corners) It's not backfilled to final grade until the floor deck is on. I don't ever recall seeing anyone put the deck on first.
*The ground is wet enough that you have to have a sump to have a basement. The sump pump runs frequently, so water's getting into it somehow. But water is still coming in between the floor slab and the foundation walls. That ain't at all normal for a new house. I sure as hell will never sell a spec with water standing in the basement.
*Hmmm...you're right, you'll never sell a spec like that. How about some more land information? This old farm field? Did they hit one of the old tiles during excavation? What are other homes in the area doing? How about a test bore out back to find the groundwater level? I guess at this point I'd consider a couple options; either waterproof (not tar, which it seems to be), the foundation, or find out where the water's coming from (if a spring or tile), and take care of it there. If it's not a spring/tile problem, my opinion is that it's the concrete guy's responsibility to fix it. Comments anyone?
*Ron,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Ron,There are two things here -- if the wall was properly constructed it shouldn't be leaking and if the drainage was properly constructed the water shouldn't be standing against the wall long enough to seep in.I don't see any alternative than to excavate outside the wall because although there are many ways of tanking the inside to stop the water, they all look what they are ---- a fix for a leak.Tank the outside of the wall and backfill the whole thing with crushed rock, with an efficient drainage at the bottom would be my suggestion.
*I'm not sure what you mean by "Tank the outside of the wall "
*Joe -There was no styrofoam used. Haven't ever seen that done either. As for locations - Several form ties are leaking and dribbling down the wall. Water seems to be seeping into the basement between the basement walls and the basement floor. Not just in one place - it's all along all 4 walls. It's worst when it rains, but it doesn't ever seem to dry up.
*Ron,sorry for the slang -- apply a waterproof coating or a waterproof membrane.
*Ron-you don't know enough about what was done- you are at the mercy of the people who did the work.so much for that part.no doubt the floor has been compromised because of frost heave- nobody's fault but yours. (sucks to be king don't it?)you gotta get rid of the water before it finds its' way in. Isn't a foundation anywhere that can stand to be submerged and not leak- unless that is what it was designed for.I doubt that your subs did much wrong.Are there gutters on the house? What kind of hole was it? Did it collect water?How you fix it depends on what went before.building is easy till you do it...
*Ron,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*I borrowed a digital camera and took a few pictures today. The first one is the leaking form ties.
*Here's the northwest corner. It's probably the wettest spot.
*Here's a shot of the sump pit. You can see the hose at the top of the picture that goes out towards the exterior wall. The ones to the left and right go along the inside of the walls.
*This is the south wall. It also stays wet quite a bit of the time.
*Are you saying that you are bringing the OUTSIDE FOUNDATION DRAIN into the basement to be pumped out by the sump?????????? Tell us you didn't do that!!!!
*Having seen the pictures, Ron, I'm even more convinced that you'll have to excavate outside against the full height of the wall and foundation to backfill with a crushed rock or similar draining material. At the same time you can re-waterproof the outside, but the main thing is to get the standing water away as soon as it collects.
*Ron,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*I can't see anything but re-excavating the foundation fixing the problem. You need to approach this on two fronts.The first would be to waterproof the walls - what was done is just rated as damp roofing.The second is to use nothing but porous material for your back fill. Depending on what is locally available, pea stone around the tile with a silt screen over the stone, than bank-run sand up to grade or a little below.If your fill will allow the water to pass through to the tile, it won't be against the wall to seep in.From what you describe, the wall was treated in a pretty standard manner. Probably would have worked under different soil conditions, but your case required someone to make a decision to upgrade as conditions became apparent.The suggestion of an old field tile being in the area is a strong possibility. Had it happen to me once.I just received the latest issue of FH (#140). It has a good article on waterproofing.TerryOne thought, just have that new helper you hired wandering around whenever you show the house. If she doesn't go downstairs, no one else will either.
*Ron - Terry has made the important distinction between dampproofing and waterproofing. The difference between unprotected dampproofing with the original soil and waterproofing (say, Tuff-N-Dri) with bank run, mirafi fabric and a protection course is substantial.The other issue is how much drainage fill (crushed stone) there is under the slab. With these conditions (high water table) there should be at least 6" of stone with the perf pipe perimeter and possibly underdrains (side to side connecting the perimeter) as well. The cracks in the slab could be from hydrostatic pressure of water not able to get into the perimeter system or, worse, water introduced from the exterior. I would normally use an underslab waterproofing membrane as well, not just a vapor barrier. I know, it doesn't help you out now.Is it possible to get down to the exterior perimeter drain and take it to daylight? I think that would help a lot. Plus waterproofing ....Jeff
*Ralph, Joseph:It's a regional thing, probably. Where the land is ultra flat and you can't run the exterior drains to daylight, many run then to the interior sump crock (a heck of alot easier to maintain than an exterior sump at the bottom of a manhole)In over 1,200 inspections in NW Ohio and SE Michigan, I've seen 1 exterior sump (and that was yesterday!)Ron,You definitely have a water problem. You really need to get someone who knows local conditions to take a look (and i notthe guy who did it!)
*Bob,
View Image© 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*O.K. guys - I appreciate all the input. You've basically confirmed what I expected anyway - Excavating the outside is about the only way to go. I guess the only question now is who's gonna pay for it. To address a couple of questions - Yes, the perimeter drain comes into the sump pit. I've never heard of doing it otherwise. Running it to daylight would take 1/4 mile of pipe, several easements, and would run under a two city streets. That ain't gonna happen. The lot is dead flat, but I put the top of the foundation 2' about the curb height to make sure the water would drain away from the house. The lot was a field a while back - My Uncle farmed it 10 years ago before it was a subdivision. I haven't seen any evidence of field tile, though. I know there's stone under the slab, but I don't know how much. So let's assume I dig all the way down to the footings on the outside, and replace all the drain tile. (The concrete guy used the 3" black flexible stuff, and I will probably replace it with solid pipe) Can I put some sort of waterproofing material on the outside on top of what's there ? Seems like stripping all the old stuff off first would be a nightmare. I've heard you guys talk about filter fabric laid down over the gravel that's around the drain tile. Where should I look around for that ? I don't think any of the area lumberyards carry it. I could take more pictures if it would help any. But my helper isn't available this weekend. (sorry Terry)
*We have had a couple of basements that had water problems. The walls were dampproofed like Ron's though we did not have leaks at the ties. The first house had a flat site and a footer drain that we ran to a dry well. The first spring the owner called to say that there was six inches of water in his basement. We pumped it out, installed a sump and the problem went away. The next spring we got a call saying that the pump was running continuously and there was still some water, less than an inch on the basement floor. We put in a second sump which has worked well for the past ten years. They run very often in the spring but have succeeded in lowering the water table. The second house we built last summer on a couple of old tennis courts, dead flat but we were able to run the drain outlet to daylight at the far end of the site. This spring, after carpet had been installed the carpet was found to be wet. The outlet showed only a trickle of water coming out. We drilled a hole to install a sump and a geyser erupted from the hole in the floor. The only explanation we could think of was that we had opened up a spring when we had blasted for a rock ledge in the middle of the foundation. When the water table connected to that spring rose, it followed the rock up beneath the slab and created that pressure. The sump easily took care of the problem but we will now run a drain line from under the slab to daylight if we can. Ron- I hope you can figure out just what your problem is. If you can't figure out the cause, it will be tough to find the cure.
*Ron,A lot of the landscape gardeners use it in connection with drip-feed irrigation of tree roots -- you may find it at a Nursery supplier.I would respectfully disagree with the recommendation to backfill with sand over the gravel or crushed rock -- the sand will leach down into the gravel. I'd use gravel all the way to the top.You'll have to find out what waterproofing material was used on the back of the wall to decide if you can re-coat it.
*You can get filter fabric in 3' and 4' widths at Home Depot and wider heavy duty fabric from irrigation and/or septic system suppliers. If you go to the trouble and expense to exhume your foundation you'll still need the perf pipe to collect the water from the bottom of the field and then run it to a dry well deep enough to collect the water below foundation drain depth and then it is pumped out. And cap off and seal the hole into the interior sump. One of your pics shows tie hole leakage way up on the wall. That part of the wall has got to be pretty close to finished grade. If you are getting leakage that high up that could indicate that the roof runoff isn't being diverted far enough away from the house, especially if you have introduced some slope when grading the property. And it indicates that the waterproofing is substandard.
*What type of soil? I've heard of one construction where they backfilled with porous sand, gravel in a clay site and it created a 'bowl' where the water flowed towards the house. How about the gutters? Is water from the downspout carried well away from the house? What is on the outside of the house where the leaks are coming from the upper form ties?Interior sumps are standard around here, but they must be pumped out and away from the house, not into the sewer drain.
*RJT - The soil is red clay. There may be just a touch of sand in it, but not much. It dries hard as a brick. The gutters aren't on yet. This pic of the front of the house might give you a better feel for the situation.
*Joe:"The exterior drains should run to a dry well if possible. If you install a sump in the house it should be to collect water getting in not bring it in to pump it back out"Read the messages. i if possible ....Yep, but in may places it isn't possible, and you do what you can.
*Ouch!! Sounds like an area that shouldn't have basements. Since you do, the common way to treat that problem is to build the slab and footings on a layer of crushed rock and drain underneath and around with 4" drain tile. If it leads into an inside sump, it's no big deal as long as the water is pumped out and away from the house so you don't have a repeated cycle of pumping the same water. You should definitely not backfill with the same clay material. Backfill with gravel or coarse sand and cap with the clay material so it grades away from house. Make sure the top of your footing drains are BELOW the floor elevation. I can't believe how many I see that are too high and thus useless in keeping water out of the basement. If you need filtered drain tubing, it is commonly available at any supplier that sells drain tile to farmers to use in their fields. It goes through areas where you find water sand pockets in clay fields. It is also commonly available at any building center where I live. I suspect part of your problem is that you are not pumping the water far enough away from the house and it keeps flowing back into the basement area. It also sounds like you have a normally high water table. If you see mottling of the clay and it gets grayer colored as you go down, you have a water table that is high year around. The only way to handle that is to have a system as I described above. If you have your floor sitting on the original clay, you have a real problem! Good Luck
*> I suspect part of your problem is that you are not pumping the water far enough away from the house and it keeps flowing back into the basement areaI don't think so - I have the sump hose run out the gront of the garage and into the street most of the time. That way the water runs down the curb into the storm sewer.
*Bob,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Joe - By "dry wells", I assume you mean something that's basically a sump pit outside the foundation ? Then you'd put a pump in each pit or something ?
*As far as who is going to pay for it.Unless your foundation installer had either a water-tight guarantee or the freedom to upgrade the water proofing and pass the expense on to you - It is the builder's problem.I assume he installed his tile and damp proofing as per your agreement/contract. Basically the builder is solely responsible for determining what the needs of the site are, and make adjustments in specifications that the site may require.No more pictures? No more advice.Terry
*Joe, I'm going to agree with Bob; I build in Michigan, and I've never seen a drywell or exterior sump pit. All of them drain back to the interior sump. I think it has something to do with the amount of clay; very little perculation (particularly in my area); so once your drywell fills; it'd stay filled. Not saying it's a good idea, or right, or nothing like that (hehe, since my own house has it's own "special" private sewer down to the creek), but it is the way it's done here. Perhaps AJ (I think he works in MoTown), could tell us different.
*Jason,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Joe, I completely agree; that's why, in my area, I feel that I'm one of the better builders, but don't make as much money as the others. On any new home, I bring in the excavators and find the water table, both by excavation and checking the local soil department; if it's high, I build high, and pay the price in additional fill. I've only built one house in ten years that the sump pump EVER runs, and it's my own (hence my "secret/special" drain). It ain't right, it aint' good, but it's the way every new home is built, probably for the past 30 years or so around here. I don't argue or fight (flat land here, wouldn't do any good), I just build above the table and never have any trouble.
*Jason,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Some of you may disagree but a proper drywell is a precast concrete perforated ring set 40% full of gravel and wrapped with Mirafi filter fabric or equivalent.Ron - we have red clay here too - it doesn't drain here either. But if you have a substantial backfill area full of porous material outside the foundation walls it will hold a lot before leaking into the basement.Jeff
*Hello, Ron>Quite a bit of posting here. You found an exciting topic for all of us.Built homes in Iowa for year, with heavy clay and a high water table. Couple of observations:1. Water is obviously comming into the ground, and along your exterior walls.2. More water is going all the way down to the floor and gurgling up through the cracks. You nor I know what the water table is, which could be a whole other problem, impossible to fix.This is a waterproofing issue. I would take a back hoe and a big crew and excavate the foundation all along the perimeter, right down to the footings. The whole she'bang. I would also take a ditch witch and excavate a downhill trench about 50 yards away from the home. I'd put in a large drywell, as big as you can, and I mean really big, ya here me? Either form one up your self, or just excavate a hole, and put about 50 tons of large (2" rock) gravel into it. Hopefully, it will be big enough to hold a rainstorm's worth.I'd install a waterproof membrane all along the exterior concrete, not just black jack, or whatever you have painted on, but a real membrane, like the peel and stick you put on roofs, right?I'd lay about 10 tons of large1" rock to small pea gravel (bigger stuff at the bottom) along a fairly deep trench going below the footing. In the middle of this I would put a 4" perforated ABS pipe, and run it down the trench away from the home. The landscape "fabric" generally plastic with holes in it, which I get at the garden store or at HD.I'd put a second 4" ABS on top of the footing and run it into the lower ABS at the trench connection. No pun intended.I would bust out a couple sections of your basement floor and make a nice big sump pump, in case the water still gets in. You can also inspect what the heck is going on below when you demo that. Alternatively, have you though of filling the rascal up with water, and making it an indoor lap pool?Did you have a soils engineer advising you of the water table, and approving the basement plans? If not, why not? I'd sure hire one now, if I were you, and get him to advise you of the issues, and sign off on a fix.Good luck.
*If you have water table problems just putting in a big "A" drywell by itself is not going to alleviate the problem. Why does a standard method of foundation draining call for runing your pipe to daylight with proper fall? (Rhetotical question). Since in your case you have no way to run the drain to daylight by gravity alone, your drywell must include a sump pump. Otherwise all you have is a large extension of the underground lake that you already have surrounding your foundation. Remember the old saying, "Water seeks its own level"?It's still a good idea to dig it all out and apply proper waterproofing and while you're in there it's not that much more to make sure your water collection system is in properly, below the slab and with means to move the water away from the foundation.Your situation reminds me of one of the problems encountered by the prefab swimming pool installers. High water table but with dewatering techniques allowed the installation of the pool but if the pool was not filled almost immediately after installation it would pop right out of the ground shortly after the dewatering stopped.
*This is an excellent article on foundation drainage, placement of drains, filter fabric, backfill and grading.http://www.jlconline.com/jlc/archive/foundations/foundation_drainage/index.htmlJLC August 2000 (sorry, couldn't find the URL) has an article on installing plastic dimple fabric. FHB issue 95 has an article on dampproofing v. waterproofing that compares a wide range of materials and systems, with an eye to cost and the DIY factor, including the dimple fabric.I can't advise on the water under the slab, but i used to have water pouring in my basement walls, heavy clay soil, a very uneven foundation (formed with boards), and a small budget. Getting something to stick to a dirty wall eliminates most methods, so i ordered dimple fabric from a company called ICE, out of Fridley MN (612)784-8406. It comes in rolls in a choice of widths and 65.6' long, but an example is that the stuff 8.25' tall is 39 cents a square foot. Easy to put over old work, it ships UPS, and it DOES NOT leak. Also, you can backfill immediately.I used it recently on a new wood basement with similar stellar results. I cannot recommend it highly enough as a waterPROOFING material. If you decide to go this route, there are a few tricks i learned to make it go even easier i would be glad to share. Google "Dorken" for more info. Come to think of it, this material is also used on damp slabs...
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I've got a house under construction that has some pretty serious water problems. I'll write more in the first post.