First a lil about me. Ive been framing for 10 years, had a partnership for two, that fizzled so now Ive had my own framing company for two years. Its tough to find a good amount of reliable staff so Ive decided to take the plunge into trim carpentry among other things.
So, Ive framed a two story 1000 sq. ft. addition adn managed to convince the GC to give me the trim and painting too. Now here is my question, what is the order of operations involved to finishing the inside correctly/efficiently. Oak trim is being used throughout so should I prime and paint the walls first then put bare oak up? Stain the oak first, touch up after its up? Touch up before I set the oak? Put up stained trim then prime/paint? I think I have an idea but would like some opinions from those who have already been through this. The hard flooring is already installed so thats not an issue if anyone was wondering.
Also, if anyone has any tips/tricks for trim Id appreciate those too. Not quite saavy with the seach function so links are cool too.
Thanks, any help is appreciated.
Matt
Replies
Man, you rather bit off more than half the pie there, didn't ya.
Ok, assuming trim is new ground for you. Careful. Framing might be all about speed, but trim is all about detail. It takes longer than it takes. You'll need to be able to make tight miters on a wavy wall, tight cope joints at the base where the DW kicks in or the corner isn't square, etc. But you're finishing it. Actually a little bit of advantage.
Instead of the trimmer cussing the framer and the painter cussing the trimmer, you just got you. Least if someone's mad at you, you'll see him in the mirror every day.
I think painting first is a bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. Should I repeat that? You're going to muck up the walls with dust and dings. Paint when you can get the tools out, the place empty, and the floors clean. Prefinished trim is for low end tracts. I say that and I'm thinking here it comes. But I stand by it. A good trim job is one where after the joints are fit, they're sanded so they're as smooth and even as possible. You do that with prefinished, you get the picture. You can't have the slightest gap in a miter on prefinished or it shows. Nobody is perfect. Little things, as well as nail holes, will get filled with stain if you finish it on the wall.
Even on the customs I do, I make the attempt at least to block like tasks into work that resembles production line. Doors for example. I know a guy that lugs everything he needs door to door to do one door and case it, one at a time. Bah. Don't take more than you have to. I walk the house with a marker, a hammer tacker, and two levels. I mark what the swing is on the RO, check the floor for level, and if the hinge side is the low side, I bring it just above level. Then I check the hinge side for plumb, and shim it top and bottom with the tacker. Next opening. Then I put all the doors by their holes, no toolbelt. Just move. Then I grab the belt and the gun, with the levels and shims, and start setting and squaring doors. I do all the prehungs first, then the bifolds and french last.
Now all the doors are in their homes and you have a cutsheet. Dealing with prehungs at least, you can set a stop and cut all the legs for the house, minus a couple of oddballs, at one time. Then all the heads. Put them by their holes. When all that's done, then I fit them. Some, the 45's are perfect. Some, you go back to the saw or tune them with a sanding block. Point being, say it's 75 bucks a door, whatever. You want that four times a day or 16?
I just thought of a side bonus. You can only backcharge yourself if you mucked up a RO or left a header low. I was in a basement once where they must have had the new guy headers and jacks. There were headers anywhere from 79-83 with no rhyme or reason to it. Unbelievable. Nice place otherwise.
I see some advantage to a competent guy handling it all. You can kind of set it up however it works best for you. Just little things, like do you want to fit all the shoe first, then label it and paint it, and install it, or whether its easier to just deal with the finish part of that at punch. You decide, you're happy.
Now that I used doors as an example, I think you'll find life easier, once they are all hung, to label them all, pop the hinges, and move the doors somewhere safe and out of the way while you base and deal with the rest of the place. You don't run the chance of running into them or having them basically just in your way the rest of the time you trim. Maybe on a 1000 foot add it isn't as much of an issue, but sometimes, that gets them out of your way for a good two months.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
RW, thanks for the input. So if Im understanding correctly its 1. Put the trim up 2. Stain trim 3. Tape off trim and paint away. Sounds good to me.
I like your method of hanging doors and trimming them all together. Ive seen some trim guys do what I think is the same sort of thing, but to be honest I really wanst paying attention, so I think Ill incorporate that technique, thanks.
I have done some trim but it all involved cutting a hole in a wall and putting in a new window/door and then finishing it off. They all came out nice so I think I have what it takes, the patience that is. I have a week between jobs so I think I have enough to get it done, maybe some overtime which Im more than happy to put in seeing as how this guy is doin me a huge favor letting me get my feet wet on his watch. Hopefully I enjoy the experience and can use this as a stepping stone to get to my eventual goal of building homes/additions from top to bottom, minus the foundation of course.
I am also going to have a laborer with me, not so smart but a hard worker, any advice on what he might be able to handle, maybe cut the legs/top for the door while I hang?
Hmm, this is gonna be fun.
Anyone, any other pitfalls I might fall into?
Thanks, Matt
Prime & paint walls one coat first. Stain the trim (but no finish) before installing. Install trim, fill trim holes & imperfections, wipe on any stain where needed, finish trim with oil or poly. Go back and spackle any dings on walls (there shouldn't be but a few), spot prime & paint spots, then second coat all walls and cut in to trimwork. Install all mechanicals like recepticals, plates, vent covers etc., hang sconces and fixtures etc. Finish floor if it's wood. Some like to finish wood flooing after you finish the trimwork and before the second coat of paint....whatever
Go home, have dinner, rassle the kids, rassle the DW, get up the next morning and do it all over again.
After your first hundred homes, swap stories & lies on the internet.
Grow old.
One important thing the other guys have not mentioned ... in addition to "welcome to the nut house forum ... is that you can't use the clipped head framing nailer on the trim. It takes something just a little more dainty.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
So I shouldnt use my Powermaster Plus to put on the base? They make hole fill right?
Matt
That opens up a whole other can of worms. Do you own a trim gun? And, if not what do you plan to buy?
Ha. Yes I do have a trim gun, Dewalt 16 ga, shoots up to 2.5" nails. Have a brad nailer too but Ive never used it, Dewalt 12" compound slide mitre saw, hoses,cords, table saw,screws, screwgunss,all the hand tools. I think Im ready to go, man Im jacked up, havent been this pumped about goin to work since I was, well... since I was framing a house next door to a trio of sassy strippers. Any other tool recommendations welcome.
Thanks, Matt
Maybe buy a new 25' hose to use indoors, and keep it clean for that purpose. Don't need to be dragging 100' of muddy hose through the house. And if you're working alone, maybe a smaller compressor ... that gas powered wheelbarrow compressor might be a bit much.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Got a dewalt electric compressor that I just had repaired from overusage of framing, so I retired he, now shes back! Funny you say that about the hose, I just spliced a 50' today cause I snagged nail,poked a hole. Maybe ill cut 'er back in half, put some new ends on and WA-LAH!
I'll work in any order ... and have any and all the tools we'll need to finish this place ...
so ... that said ...
let's get back to this Striper Joint ...
where and when do ya need me?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Just got your E-MAil the other day. Sent one back.
Now, lets get back to the strippers. Young ones or the ones who are still working way past prime because the spent all their cash on coke when they were young?
doesn't anyone screw and plug oak anymore? We do this with almost all our hardwood trim, and I think it looks better, and the trim sucks up to the jambs much better. best of all, no compressors or hoses to struggle with.
Sorry Robert but that job was 2 years ago, and FYI they were young strippers who were in the process of blowing all their loot on coke. Ha. We got pretty friendly with them but unfortunatelty no stories on closing deals.
later , Matt
One last thought,
Got a jamb level? It's not a must but if you like to use a level to plumb and straighten the hinge side of an door as you hang it one can be very helpfull.
I mark hinge locations on mine because of how I hang doors and it reall speeds things up.
Oops! I guessed I just assumed that. Good one.
Finished a trim job on a 1000 sq.ft. basement a few weeks back. All Oak including soild Oak Doors & jambs. All of the trim was pre stain & Laquer off site. Walls were painted before we started to trim. Worked out real well. One of the nicer Laquer Jobs I have seen in a long time. Just had to remember to treat all wood with care.
Just remember if you do Stain & laquer on site, make sure you turn off all piolt lights before the laquer begins!
I suppose we all have our preferences- and many jobs are different.
I did a 4300 foot home- all wood doors, windows, trim. DF windows, solid oak doors, jambs and trim.
Here is what I did:
1. Prior to sheetrock, all windows were masked
2. Sheetrock up, taped, textured.
3. Primer sheetrock
4. Stain windows. THIS IS A BEAR. Different woods absorbe differently- it took a lot of experimentation to get the wester doug fir windows (Hurd and Pella) to match what the oak would look like. Also installed and stained all door jambs.
5. Clearcoat windows and door jambs. Utilized a a waterborne urethane. Brush applied.
6. Mask off windows and door jambs
7. Paint walls. Without trim you can really fly.
8. Cut all trim. This took a major effort to get the pieces cut and fitted well without nailing them. Numbered pieces
9. Stained and clearcoated trim. Spray finish CAB Acrylic lacquer
10. Nail up trim. Putty holes. Touch up walls. All done.
Could have saved some time, but given the size, it was multi weeks anyway. Laying perfectly finished stained and lacquered wood onto perfecly finished walls gives a very nice finished product.
Stain grade finish work is incredibly unforgiving... Doors and windows on this project were over $60k plus install. Trim was another $18k. 6 circle top windows, which required custom fab of the oak trim...
Good luck
A
We're in the middle of trimming our current project and for the last week I've been working with two of our general carpenters who are new to trim/finish work so I can appreciate what you're going to run into.
On the high end stain-grade trim jobs it does work well to trim with unfinished wood over primed walls and have the stain/finish guys do their thing before the walls get painted.
Having said that, you're probably better off with the more typical senario of painting everything first and touching up when the trim is done. I'd recommend painting everything, paying close attention to the proper mixing/stirring of your paint to avoid color/sheen matching problems when you touch up later.
If you take out some paint up front for your touchups later you'll be a closer match than scraping leftover paint out of a 5 gal pail. Two weeks ago the painter touching up an oak stair of mine couldn't match the flat sheen of the original paint with his leftovers and will have to repaint the entire wall for what should have only been a shot glass of touchup paint.
As for the oak finish, if it's natural oak with no stain it will be easier, but staining isn't that hard if you're consistent.
Lightly sand everything with 320 to remove burs, surface dirt and fingerprints. Leave this step out only if your material is very clean, smooth and you're feeling lucky.
Keep staining very simple and wipe it on and wipe it off. Stir the stain as you go, watch for fingerprints, use good light. Avoid trying to match another stain if at all possible for your first shot. If you do make samples that include lighter and darker shades of the same wood for each stain mix.
For a good solid introduction to finishing, brush on polyurethane is very good since it produces a very strong finish that is somewhat forgiving to apply. Using foam applicator brushes is good, a high quality varnish brush is better.
Gloss poly is tougher so it is used for base coats and other sheens are left for the last coat. Using a satin finish will help mask some of the trim imperfections that will occur so go with this unless the client is insistant on gloss.
If you must finish the stuff on site and odors of the oil-based poly are an issue use the water based poly, but once you start a project with one don't switch since they produce completely different looks (the water based stuff is clear while the oil based imparts a slight color tint).
Apply a coat of sanding sealer (buy a galon of the same brand of the poly you'll be using), lightly sand, apply a coat of poly, lightly sand, another coat of poly, lightly sand and the final coat of poly.
Apply the poly in a place with as little dust as possible since it takes a while for the finish to dry.
Probably the easiest way to screw up an otherwise great trim/stain/finish job is to misunderstand filler and putty. Some are applied before stain and produce a different look where they fill the oak pores so avoid these unless you are skimming the entire surface with putty or are very very careful to not spread it around. Basically a bad idea unless the entire wood surface is skimmed with it.
The other type of putty is colored and applied after the trim is installed. For red oak with various colors and tones from board to board don't try to use one color to fill all nail holes. I like to use two or three colors covering the spectrum from light to dark, spreading a small glob of each on something handy. Simply mix a little of each in the middle and you'll have any color. The variation in putty color helps mask the holes much better than a single color. Wipe this putty off with a rag with a little mineral spirits or a dull ring will dry around each hole.
When filling nail holes it will become apparent that some sections of each board are easier to fill. Nail holes straddleing strong color transitions and on featurless smooth sections are very hard to conseal. Nail holes on the face of trim that is viewed most directly show up much more than those angled away. Faces of trim that are hit by the most direct light also show nail holes more redily.
Don't get carried away with nails. If you're in doubt don't add another. Use as few as possible and as many as necessary.
Buy all your trim at once, hopefully from the same batch/lot from the mill. The quality of oak trim varies all over the place so hand select for even color and grain. Even if it's from the same mill cut a slice at the job site from one end and compare to all sticks to see how much variation there is. Each time a cutter is replaced the profile changes a little. Separate any slightly differing profiles and simply use them in different places without mixing the two.
Oak varies a lot so color match as you go so a door casing doesn't start out dark on one side and light on the other. Look at your trim before you start staining/finishing so you don't end up with some ugly trim that needs to be replaced when you're halfway completed. The light and dark shades need to be mixed in so they don't appear to change color abruptly and one side of a room doesn't appear to be darker than the other. The best looking stuff goes in the most visible areas and the ugliest goes inside closets.
Don't rely on putty to mask bad joints, it won't. If you absolutely have to fill a joint don't fill it all with the same color or it will stand out like a sore thumb. Vary the color along the joint until it blends in. Bad cuts will be impossible to hide completely and are very easy for someone to pick out so keep them tight.
There is so much to know about good quality trim that it's impossible to list it all without writting a book, so let us know as you run into issues you're not sure about. There isn't anything you'll run into that trim carps haven't dealt with before.
Keep in mind that stain grade trim takes much more time than paint grade trim and don't be surprised if it takes 10 cuts or more to get a decent joint to close up. It might take 4 times the hours for stain grade and you're new to it so add a significant amount more for the learning curve.
As an example, last friday after a week of practice and working together the two carps on our crew that are pretty quick learners, just lacking trim experience, installed 1/4 the trim that I did working alone. They were wore out trying to keep focused and implement the techniques they were taught. Learning good trim is not easy, but it gets easier the more you do so don't let it get you down.
I highly recommend planning your trim projects to work on the hardest areas when you're the sharpest and digress to the easier stuff when you're brain is fried or frustrated. It sounds childish, but start on the inside of closets and the least important rooms and your skills will noticably improve by the time you're in the main rooms.
Casing doors becomes many times easier if the framed openings are straight and aren't wider than the door jams. There are good and bad ways of dealing with door trim problems and it will make a significant statement about your skills to the GC and other trim carps so if you're in doubt it's a good time to ask someone how they deal with it.
When working with a laborer or assitant carp they usually end up doing most of the prep and stain/finish work on the trim. That portion of the job is somewhat time consuming and can be done well by someone with little experience if they are closely supervised.
As for actually installing trim, your helper needs to be able to cut very accurately or they are more trouble than they're worth. Most times you're better off cutting the trim you're installing. Typically trim carps work individually to help keep a high level of concentration.
If a helper isn't skilled enough to actually install trim, he could always precut to a slightly longer length to speed up your work. Cutting 1/2" longer than needed is probably safe, but reinforce to him how expensive miscuts are. The danger in precutting all your trim is it's hard to recycle miscuts. Remember 1/16" short on staingrade is as good as 1".
Personally I work on the door jams that are the tallest and widest so miscuts aren't wasted (keep in mind the color and grain matching!). Often one side of a jamb will be slightly longer, even if it's just 1/16" always start there.
Once it's installed a helper can be good for filling nail holes if done properly, again it takes someone with good detail skills or the nail holes don't get covered as well as they could.
There will be numerous gaps between the trim and walls that need to be filled and painted if the trim and walls are prefinished or it won't look right. For stain grade I like a low-grade paintable clear caulk. The higher the grade, the harder it is to apply as thin caulk lines and clean up also gets harder. Good caulking is extra important with staingrade trim since the touchup paint needs a surface that allows a clean transistion with the wood. Rounded caulk joints, caulk residue on the wood, and other nit-picking things are a no no or the results look poorly. T-shirt material is ideal for wiping off caulk and a narrow putty knife makes removing excess caulk from tight areas much easier. In corners don't allow the caulk to build up or it doesn't paint well.
The absolute best advise for caulking is to use less than what it takes to fill the gap, wipe the joint to smooth it and reapply sparingly to the areas that still have gaps. This goes fast since you aren't wiping off a lot of excess (never drag excess caulk along a wall or it takes 5 times as long to clean it off).
When painting thin caulked gaps don't use a regular brush or it will be three times as hard and won't look as good. At Wal-mart go to the art supply section and buy a $5 artist brush about 1/2" wide with an angled bristle pattern. This works just like a full size cut in brush but in miniture. Just paint the caulk and any scrapes and try to avoid heavy ridges and clearly defined transitions with the existing paint.
When evaluating the quality of a trim project I'll first look at the overall shading of the trim to see how well the color variations were dealt with. Then I'll move to door reveals and operation (we hold our trim carps accountable for the fine tuning of the doors since some settling/movement/shrinkagle always occurs between door install and trim so if something significant is wrong with the doors the trim guys need to bring it to our attention before they start). Then the trim reveals around doors and windows. 1/32" variation is ok but not great, 1/16" is too much for high quality work. Joints should be tight and not covered up with putty. Trim should appear flat and not bulging over high sheetrock. Base should appear verticle and not wave in and out at the bottom with sheetrock goofs, especially in corners.
The finish, filled holes and paint transistions should look good when viewed from a typical distance in light typical for the room. Crown base and door/window casings are thus held to slightly differing standards reflecting how humans actually see them. Then closer examination will tell volumes about the quality and thickness of the finish, how the trim was nailed, amount of caulking used and any issues that might pop up over time. There is nothing hiding trim or the final finish of the room so it's very hard to fake a good job and get away with it when dealing with someone who is detail-oriented.
Halfway through buy yourself a good ($100) finish blade for your saw and it will sell you on the difference in cut quality between disposible blades that have a lot of runout and one that's really flat. Besides in the long run having a good blade resharpened will be cheaper than buying disposible blades.
Have a good time with your project and be easy on yourself--there's a learning curve to everything. On bad days when nothing seems to line up or is cut short I'll grab a broom for a half hour to get my mind clear and get back at it.
Cheers,
Don
Idaho, it sounds like you've been where Im going. Thanks for the input, Ill post as I go. Im gonna try to start it this thurs but we'll see what happens.
Thanks, Matt
Matt,
In this day and age we have a huge advantage over our forefathers. We can quickly pick up new knowledge and skills from the internet, mags like FH, and the numerous great books.
When I started as a finish carp I faked it, sort of. My mentor was a retired builder from one of the upscale ski towns in Colorado. The stuff they would build was often unique with elements that they've never seen, let alone installed before. He instilled in us the importance of stressing, to clients and those you work with, what you can do, not what you have done. When something new comes up find out what you can, from wherever you can, start slowly, do quality work from square one and by the time you're done you'll be halfway decent at it. My first two months as a finish carpenter included oak stairs, mahogany trim, epi decks, hickory floors, slate tile, log trusses and a whole lot of stress, but it turned out to be a great experience learning how to learn quickly as you go--how to fake it.
Last week a small face-framed cabinet needed to be custom built for a unique wall opening. Our cabinet supplier was swamped and couldn't get to it, the two finish carps at work that have their own cabinet businesses on the side were busy on another site so I put it together. The cabinet gurus were surprised and said they didn't know I could build decent cabinets. Little did they know that, once again, I faked it.
Best of luck,
Don
Edited 11/1/2005 12:13 am ET by IdahoDon
Excellent post, very insightful.
nice to hear such enthusiasm -- good advice.
Excellent information Don!
Could you explain this sentence: "Casing doors becomes many times easier if the framed openings are straight and aren't wider than the door jams."?
blue
When the thickness of the wall exceeds the width of the jamb stock, applying door casing can be a bear. We're talking jamb extensions (often tapered) or carving out the sheetrock or installing casing on a cant.
"Could you explain this sentence: "Casing doors becomes many times easier if the framed openings are straight and aren't wider than the door jams."?"
Blue,
What I had in mind on the first part of the statement was the straightness of framing on either side of the door that might bow away from, or into, the wall.
In other words framers that crown all studs in one direction often create crowned walls that will eventually need to meet straight door jambs. If the sheetrocker doesn't fix it then it becomes the problem of the door guy. If the door guy can't do anything, which he probably can't, then it gets handed down and becomes the problem of the trim guy.
We try to select the straightest studs for door openings and use double full-height kings on interior doors, crowning the kings in opposite directions, but moisture loss makes it a crap shoot sometimes.
The second part, "(walls) aren't wider than the door jams," is a poorly worded way of saying that keeping trim flat is easier if the jamb and wall are the same thickness (width) so the back of the trim doesn't need to be thinned (or the sheetrock cut/bashed) for everything to match up. Too often sheetrockers leave thick joints around door/window openings, don't understand what a sheetrock shim is, and don't check anything prior to throwing rock up.
As the finish guy I've also been the defacto quality control nit picker. At each stage of construction our carps are expected to check for potential problem areas so when I get to hang and trim a door in an opening that has 3/8" crown at the latch, or the wall is 1/2" out of plumb, I work backwards and "firmly" show each guilty carpenter where they could have fixed things before it became a problem. Sheetrock is subed out, but our carps still straighten the walls (shim/trim) before the sheetrockers start so we have someone onsite accountable for every stage of construction except tape/texture.
:-)
Ooops. Huck and I were typing at the same time. He said it better. :-)