Hi folks ,I need advice for a shop frame I’m doing at my place .The size is 24’ x 36’ and will be attatched at a right angle to the rear of my existing detatched 24’ x 24’ garage. I have plans from Barns.com but they need to be modified. The roof will be truss’ that I will have made by
truss company. It is gambrel style and the layout for the truss is done with no need for a knee wall under the pitch break. That will give me as much floor area as possible in the loft. However the area at the pitch break is only 6’- 1 “ tall. . The plans call for the truss ’ to sit on a plate attatched to the deck. I’d like to if possible raise this to 7’ to 8’ w /out changing the shape of the roof frame and keeping the truss’ from kicking out.
I also want to have a clear span below w/a ceiling hgt . of 10’ . I was thinking of ballon framing the walls at 12’ or so and attatching
ledgerboard to the walls to hang the joists about 1’ foot from the top plate. But when discussing this w/my salesman at the local yard I was told that either way I attatched the ledger,[ by letting it into a 2†x 6†,(if I don’t use this method it will be 2†x 4†wall),or lagging w/ 3 to 4 bolts at each stud connection] the BI will want engineering info/stamp. This I want to avoid but my town is a PITA, ( Cranston , R.I . ).,stay away bldrs ! Any ideas as to how I can get my floor framed and get the added hgt in the loft ?
What about floor joist? Whats the best cost effective method for framing this? I want it a bit beefier than a standard live load because I will store some lumber up there at times. Maybe 1-1/2 to 2 tons. Am I better off using I-joist at 16 “ depth on 16†centers, or using 2 lvl ‘s and dividing the floor into 3 equal sections and using 2†x 12†joists at 16†on center? The flooring will be ¾ advantech . The building will be on frost walls w/ slab.
Whatever method I use I want to be able to give the BI my plans for structural materials and structural connectors or whatever w/out having an engineer get involved.(I do not mean to offend the engineers here ,honest)
I did look into metal buildings but found I was better off doing it w/conventional framing.
At least I already own the tools to screw up a wood frame ‘-)
Thanks for any help you can offer !
George C.
Ps
The truss co. did design a truss w/ floor ( 1 piece) but they need to have a leg from the pitch break to the bottom floor web which would make the clear room area only 15’ – 5†x 7’-6â€. The hgt is good , but I want to be able to use the entire floor area into the eaves also. That extra leg gets in the way. They also said they could make the truss the same as in the barn plan which is great , if I can get the added hgt . Below I’ve pasted the url’s so
you can get an idea of the room above the shop and also an idea of what the truss’ look like.
http://www.barnplans.com/gambrelroof.html
http://www.barnplans.com/showcase/main.cgi?month=nov03
Replies
cawfy.... cranston ?.. i don't see how you can get by the BI without stamped plans
they wanted an engineer just to change a single window header for one of my customers..
i'd let the truss company do the entire design.. they can give you stamped drawings. but you won't be able to deviate from the plan..
or figure out what you want and bite the bullet and hire an engineer..
most other RI towns outside of Zone 3 will go along with common sense.. but Cranston says no engineer ---- no permit
edit: your question about floor joists got me thinking... i'd go to JT's Lumber and have them take your design and engineer it for I-joists and trusses.. they can give you stamped plans if you buy their package..
i'd think that Douglas or Arnold would do the same
Edited 3/4/2006 2:32 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike,thanks for your quick reply.I will call Jt's ,Douglas and Arnolds.As for Cranston,last yr I had to get a permit for a pic - nic table shelter I built for a customer,was just under 200 sf and the BI at 1st wanted professional drawings and a Eng. stamp.I called around and found only a few places and the cheapest was 1200.00 balloons!After talking w/the BI again I told him the bldg. footprint was actually under 200 sf and he just charged me for the permit(which I thought was unecessary but wasn't going to argue about)and then had to go get signitures from 4 different offices in 2 different places in the city.
What a circus. Thanks again Mike!BTW,Excelent thread you going on the current project.PS any idea how to dress up the break in the roof planes? I wouldn't want to just shingle over it.
i like to do gambrels with this detail..
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piffen has a lot of gambrel details also
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/4/2006 4:51 pm ET by MikeSmith
I like the look of that house. Was it an addition to an existing? i noticed some of the shingles are faded into new(er) looking shingles. Also i cant tell, but the upper corner trim board looks like it seperates the roof shingles from the wall shingles and then overlaps the the top facia board?. Is this just an odd picture angle? do you have more pics of this home?
Thanks.
two separate roofs... here's some framing pics which might better explain it..
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and yes , it was a 16x28 addition
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/4/2006 6:25 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 3/4/2006 6:26 pm ET by MikeSmith
I like that 'swoop' detail a lot Mike. In general, gambrels don't appeal to me at all. In fact I don't even like framing them. But that is a sharp looking detail. I love a green roof with weathered cedar too... something very classic NE about that.View Image
Mike,I read the posts of that project when you posted it,very nice work as always.Heres another question,Should I ask the truss co. to provide a longer section of top web to shoot past the lower roof plane,(will see him tomorrow).Or would it be better to just add some 2 x material scabbed onto the top web to accomplish that detail? Do you slide your lower plane roofing material under your facia or sub - facia ?The roof on the small dormer is flat,any particular reason you didn't mimic the gambrel ,is it a historical thing? I'm thinking of adding a small dormer also,very small,only 2' wide for another access for 1" x 12" materials. The reason I ask about the roof is I would like to make the dormer a gambrel also. Now,I have an idea that at 2' it will look too pewny(?)..er small. Suppose I could make it 4' and make 2 windows?
I don't want to cut into the truss' as I suspect it would cause more brain matter and $$ to be used.Just fit the windows between the rafters. thanks Mike for all your efforts/time & experience. george c.
the top chord of the upper pitch extends just past the top chord of the lower pitch
and a 2x4 subfascia frames the detail... the sheathing slides up under that slight extension
on the dormer... the upper chord just keeps extending to form the roof of the dormer
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/6/2006 9:28 pm ET by MikeSmith
Thanks Mike for the info on the detail for the top pitch. I also liked the swooped eaves on your project. Very nice work and something that someday someone will say.."why the heck did he bother with that.." and others will say.."look at that can you imagine taking the time to make something work well and make it look good too.."Reminds me of some of the houses in the Norwood Ave section of Cranston between Broad St. and Narragansett Blvd. I was working indoors on a property which had a neighboring house that once had the same details but had been all covered over w/ new roof and vynil siding.The swooped roofing,eyebrow windows and woven corner shingles and gingerbread all covered up or removed. What a bummer. I had heard that TOH was/had done a project in that area. Never seen it on TV though. thanks again Mike ! george c.
cawfy.. driving thru the old sections of providence and cranston is a real eye opener.. unbelievable about some of the details you see if you slow down and look closeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I got your email, but didn't respond to it. I don't answer questions by email. See: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=69426.1Sounds like what the truss company told you was pretty sound. I do have a couple of thoughts you could run by them.If you want more clear height inside, you could raise the pitch on the steeper sloped roof or raise the heels of the trusses. You could get a wider room by doing the same thing. If you want to be able to store stuff up there, ask them to design the trusses with a 60 PSF live load (or more) rather than the typical 40 PSF. If you absolutely can't stand gambrel attics, try looking at a gambrel scissor set on a kneewall with a truss floor. That would give you use of the full width of the building.I think that's what they have in this pic: http://www.barnplans.com/images/trusses.jpgAdding a beam down the center would give you more design flexability. But persnaly I wouldn't want the beam and posts if it were mine.
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.
Thanks Boss for the reply. Thanks for the post you mentioned,don't know how I missed it. I talked w/the truss guy this am and he's going to see if he can add some interior ceiling hgt. But if he cannot I will go w/the original plan. Will find out tomorrow. Thanks for the help and the quotes. george c.
You have thought this out well, and it CAN work, but the devil is in the details. The points of conection are what can fail and that need engineering. I wouldn't do this without at leat a conference with my PE( I don't need stamped drawings for permits but sometimes pay for the liability sharing.)
I was going to suggest that the truss company can save you a lot also. negotiate with them what you want and can give up. With them, the engineering is included.
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Piffin thank you for your response. I talked to the BI today and showed him the drawings that I got online and explained that I wanted to modify them ie the floor plan/and hgt of interior of loft. I told him I was having the truss' and I - joists designed by the truss co. and everything is cool there.When I asked if there were any stock solutions to my particular question about balloon framing (as in the connections)he said he couldn't tell w/out a drawing. I told him that I was working w/ a professional plan maker (?), (not an Archy) he said as long as it was in the plans and had cross sections he would accept it. Of course they have to be realistic,a connection that will work.But,if I can get something from the truss maker that will raise the hgt I think I will go that way (I have to see him again tomorrow).Because if balloon framing will be the only way to get the hgt,then I will need hangers for the I - joist (more $$) or add a ledger let into 2 x 6 walls (more time). I may just accept the hgt that the truss co. can provide.Yes,the details,the BI is more afraid of them than I,and rightly so I guess. Thanks again Piffin for the response. george c.ps,I enjoy almost all the posts that I read here on breaktime and am very grateful for all of the experience shared,the humor,human condition..and the Limericks