Since I am on the drawing side of things in the homebuilding business working in an architect’s office, I wanted to post a few questions here to see how the ‘guys in the field’ prefer to work. I like to draw accurately and correctly, and realize a lot of techniques are done in the field for a reason. So hopefully some of the experience on this forum can enlighten me.
When framing from drawings, is it easier to have dimensions to studs, or sheathing?
When framing walls, do you sheath then laying down, or when in place vertically?
Do you align the sheathing with block foundation wall, or do you align the studs with the block wall, and let the sheathing ‘hang out’?
If you have time to respond, provide reasons why you work the way you do. This is not some official survey, I am just curious as to why people do things the way they do. Most of the time, it makes sense.
Thanks in advance,
Replies
1) I HATE anything-to-center wall dimensions--Who is gonna measure to the CL of a wall when they're snapping lines? Give dimensions from outside to outside or wall to wall.
2) Concerning sheathing, we do it after walls are stood, but we frame all one-story homes on slabs. Sometimes we sheathe walls after the rafters are on (letting the top edge of the plywood butt up to the bottom of the rafter tails) and sometimes we sheathe flush with the bottom plate (in the event we're using trusses). After missing some top nailing on some of my wall plywood this last house, I'm thinking of "cutting an inch" into my spans and sheathing the walls before setting rafters, regardless.
However, when giving dimensions on plans, it's always preferable to just have that dimension from the outside of the wall plate itself...that way I just hook the adjacent plate to get windows, doors, etc. Sometimes the designer will give a dimension from the outside of the brick, which means I have to hold 5" on the outside of the adjacent plate. That could be avoided; it wastes my time and we all know where the brick is going!
Oh yeah one more thing...on bathroom walls next to tubs, showers, etc., how about giving inside to inside RO dimensions between walls? I.e., for a 5' tub, give a wall-to-wall, inside-to-inside dimension of 60 1/2". That's what's important.
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
"When framing from drawings, is it easier to have dimensions to studs, or sheathing?"
All of our outside wall are measured outside/outside and our interior walls are measured from inside/inside.I like it because once our outside bottom plates are nailed down I just butt my tape right into it and measure to the next wall and then mark that and mark another line at 3-1/2" for 2x4 wall and hold my tape on that mark and then mark the next wall. All interior doors are measured from the inside of the walls. All windows and exterior doors are measure from the outside of the walls to the centers.
"When framing walls, do you sheath then laying down, or when in place vertically?"
Where I'm from the walls go up and the sheathing goes on when the framing is done. We run our sheathing horizontally. It's a regional thing. Other guys sheath the walls before they raise them. No matter what way you do it that's something that's not code or I've ever seen on a set of plans before even when I framed in Cape Cod where we sheathed before we raised the walls
"Do you align the sheathing with block foundation wall, or do you align the studs with the block wall, and let the sheathing 'hang out'?"
I usually run the sheathing flush with the foundation wall but some cases it sticks past if the foundation isn't square or is wavy. I don't want the sheathing in on the foundation creating a shelf if the foundation is bad.
Joe Carola
Edited 3/1/2006 6:02 pm ET by Framer
I prefer dimensions to edge of framing.
Unless it's critical, I prefer all measurements on plan to be frame dimensions, not finish. I'd rather the archy do the head scratching beforehand than me having to do it in the field.
For windows & doors, dimension to center of RO's. That way if the manufacturer changes or size changes, your whole number string isn't effed up. While you're at it, give a rough sill height or rough header height, or tell me if you want the heads of windows & doors to line up.
I sheath walls both ways, but prefer to sheet them laying down, then apply Tyvek as well. Anything to keep me off ladders & scaffolds saves time.
I like to align the framing with the masonry walls and let the sheathing hang over. Most of my work is remodeling, using CMU walls, and the overhanging sheathing usually comes pretty close to the thickness of the parging. Also saves my mason the mental gymnastics of subtracting or adding sheathing thickness.....one less chance for effing up again.
Now, since you asked.........
It's nice when you can include the diagonal measurement of a particular space. I mean, hey, it just takes the click of a mouse in most CAD programs, and it saves us from having to 3-4-5, 6-8-10 and so on when we're trying to square up. Not a big deal, but if an archy ever did that for me, I'd buy him or her lunch!
If you want that outlet centered on the window, tell me and I'll make sure I don't put a stud there.
If your elevation shows a wall sconce, give me a height to center of the box.
If it's new construction, and you want your recessed lights to line up just so, then make a big note, so I can adjust my framing accordingly.
If it's old construction, be aware that your carefully thought out light plan might not work.
If you're worried I might not get a particular detail, give me a larger scale section or plan that tells me exactly what you want done. Inferring things from 1/4 scale plans & elevations is an inexact science at best......especially since we're not allowed to scale the drawings :-)
If I'm involved early on, let's have talk with you, me and my plumber & HVAC guy, and nail down where the pipes & ducts need to go. Let's do this before you give it to your structural engineer, so we don't have to revise the permit drawings later, or build an ugly bulkhead when the mechanicals don't fit.
Unless the job is a one of a kind masterpiece, try to use materials and methods that are common in your area. Hurriedly speccing something out of a Sweet's catalog, that no one around these parts has ever heard of increases the chances of things being difficult.
Go out on site visits with a camera and take pictures of how things are commonly done in the field.
Most importantly, realize that once egos get checked, the field guys and the designers each have the ability to make one another's lives alot easier if they are patient, and respectful.
Whew! I feel better now.
I was wondering, what differance does it make to the guy in the drawing room, what sequence we sheet the walls? With the wall laying down ,or already stood up.
Welcome in to the fray.
;)
You are going to find a variety of answers as we have seen in the past, mostly based on regional differences but sometimes just the framer himself, so double check with theframers in your own area.
I'm a remodelor come up through the trades in various ways and only a so-so framer, so my opinion won't mean as much as some I do design also
I draw with dims to edge of plate, and set plate to foundation edge, then hang sheathing over.
I do dims for opennings to center of openning and call out RO right on the plan instead of making the framer look in a table
Make sure your wall heights show on the plans, and the openning elevations if other than 6'8"f to top fin.
Double check all your load paths, and the 3D of the stairwell - that it actually works
why?
cause it works smoother and avoids as many errors that way
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I second the motion on stairwells 3D drawings and make sure that the stairwell hole is big enough for the stairs including required headroom at the bottom.
Why are stairway openings always wrong? :-) The new Construction Master Trig Pro Trig has a function included with the stair function that tells you how big the opening must be from the top. I don't know why I never figured that out before, but now I do the math before the upstairs floor is framed. I used to put a stringer up when I was building the stairs and measure to double check, but now I can just measure along the floor from where the stairs die at the top and mark the inside wall for it while we frame inside walls.
The blueprints I get are drawn for houses without basements or 8' basements. And our foundations are 9' so it's not that they are wrong they take some resizing at the floor joist stage. The general contractor is so cheap that the prints he gives me are pretty much worthless, they are drawn in his buddys basement I think. I built a house for him off the picture you look at to buy the prints. Alot of the stairs end up with three step winders, or a 8" riser to a 10" tread, not really all that safe. A good example are in those townhouse pics I posted 2 steps to a landing to 9 steps down to 3 step winders to two more steps and barely made it end before the front door.
I use the construction master for stairs, what a time saver over my old method of using a story pole. I have a CM IV is that the one you are talking about or can I go tool shopping again?
I would upgrade. I think it's worth it, especially if you are still useing the IV :-)
Get an Armadillo case for it and that thing should last awhile. Mine got really wet about 2 months ago in that 27 days of rain we had and I thought it was toast, but it dried out and works just fine.
Here's a link that Framer sent me awhile ago http://www.engineersupply.com/calculated-industries-construction-master-pro-trig-4080-calculator.aspx takes a couple of days to get it and I keep a spare.
When framing from drawings, is it easier to have dimensions to studs, or sheathing?
Exterior walls, outside of sheeting to outside of sheeting. Interior walls, inside to inside. To the center on windows and doors.
When framing walls, do you sheath then laying down, or when in place vertically?
On a slab usually standing up because pipes and such are usually in the way when laying down. On a deck ill sheet 'em down every time. Gables, tyvek and ext trim too.
Do you align the sheathing with block foundation wall, or do you align the studs with the block wall, and let the sheathing 'hang out'?
Sheeting flush with foundation that way I can see my chalkline when drilling holes and setting my wall. It amkes it a lil bit easier sheeting too because you have a little ledge to sit your sheets on, vertically.
Matt
"Go out on site visits with a camera and take pictures of how things are commonly done in the field."
That's one I forgot...for example, the most popular plan we do for one builder shows a 5' free-standing kitchen wall being precisely BESIDE the beam for the living room. That makes the beam a 24' double LVL, versus a 10' dbl. 2x12. We've already moved this wall several times (with the super's approval) to make things SO much easier.
And speaking of kitchens, how about giving us precise dimensions for furr-downs (cabinet soffits), and whether those dimensions are finished or rough.
Oh, BTW thanks for being an architect who cares enough to ask...ain't too many of y'all out there anymore!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
I usually build from the ground up; foundation to finish. I'll agree with most of the responses and the ones I don't isn't so much that I disagree, but just do things probably more like Framer (though probably not near as efficiently): Sheathing horizontal, stick frame most of the roofs, etc.
Since I do draft residential house plans occasionally for other builders, I try to develop builder-friendly plans.
So one of my pet peeves when working off someone else's drawings is the floor framing superimposed over the foundation plan. (I didn't encounter this much 'till the last 3 or 4 years....)
Now, it can be helpful to have such a drawing to help the framer, but picking detail on the concrete layout through all the notes and details on the floor framing can be a PITA, especially where there are a lot of seismic imbedments, anchors and heavy reinforcement schedules.
Separate sheet for foundation and it's sections and elevations, please.
When I was a framer we did the sheathing both ways--it was nice to put it on while the wall was laying on the deck being built because we could measure across the diagonals amd hold it square while sheathing and nailing the sheathing with a nailgun was a breeze. Standing the wall up and wrestling it into place, especially a long one, was another story. We could also sheath right over window openings and cut them out later.
We also sheathed some walls after they were up. Often, in those cases, the plywood overlapped the rim joist and even barely overlapped the foundation (by an inch or so). I felt that made the wall attachment to the house much stronger and kept wind and rain out of the joint where wall met floor deck (if not overlapped).
Seems to me that we sheathed garages horizontally (but then had to block all the edges of the plywood) and houses vertically (and no blocking at edges).
I'm a truss guy, not a framer. So this is from MY perspective.
"When framing from drawings, is it easier to have dimensions to studs, or sheathing?"
I don't really care. But what I *DO* care about is that the plan makes it obvious which one is dimensioned to. Like if there's a note on the plans that says something like:
Exterior walls are dimensioned as 4". Interior walls are 3 1/2"
"When framing walls, do you sheath then laying down, or when in place vertically?"
Most guys around here do them after they're up. I don't have a good reason to offer as to why.
"Do you align the sheathing with block foundation wall, or do you align the studs with the block wall, and let the sheathing 'hang out'?"
I'd say 90% of guys here have the sheathing flush. About 10% make the studs flush and let the sheathing hang over. I don't know that there's any good reason to do either.
A couple of other minor points -
Like someone else already mentioned - I hate walls dimensioned to the center.
I also hate exterior dimensions to brick. The brick isn't there when the house is framed, so why dimension to it?
I'm always happy to see someone taking an interest in doing their job well, and learning what the guys "down the line" are looking for. Thanks for asking.
Boss, I agreed with everything you said till you got to the brick part.
If there is brick, I want the dimensions from the brick, on the exterior dimensioning.
On the interior, I dont care what you do, just make it obvious and stay consistent.
blue
One more thing:
NO OPEN STRINGS!!!
Why do you want dimensions to brick?
Memory is a child walking on a seashore. You can never tell what small pebble it will pick up and store away among its treasured things.
I prefer that all dimenions pulled on the exterior, be pulled from the outermost surface. This helps to eliminate confusion when I encounter a wall that has half brick and siding above.
I've also worked on about 1000 homes that had brick. The dimensioning is pulled from brick on 99.5% of them. On those few houses that do otherwise, I'm constantly in a state of confusion and mistakes are numerous. Of course that leads to problems associated with the trusses because if I'm confused, then the truss designer is confused too and there will be a higher chance of errors.
The most typical problem situation is a second story room that borders an entrance. If the entrance has a two story wall with brick, and the opposing wall of the room has siding (because it's normally over a roof), then problem can occur if we all arn't on the same page. I've set gables wrong in these situations that I had to shift. Quite often the heels have differnt heights, one allowing for the brick, and one allowing for only a wall. The overhangs sometimes have to be adjusted for width to compensate. It gets tricky.
All of this trickiness wouldn't be eliminated because dimensions are pulled from brick, but it generally eliminates the chances that different sized projections will be needed.
blue
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this - I have rarely ever worked around brick, so I can't see how you layout the frame to a brick wall that is not there yet. You would have to tack up a stick hanging over the deck 5"or whatever to hook the tape onto....???
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, we almost ALWAYS work around brick. Therefore, almost every house that we do has a brickledge. I can think of very few exceptions.
The foundation plan shows the dimensions from the brickledges. This is the technical footprint.
When you compare the 1st floor plan to the foundation plan, the dimensions will be the same. If you didn't do that, the numbers would be changing. All kinds of problems could start cropping up when you do that.
The architects generally assign a dimension of the brick at 4" because it's a nice tidy modular number. it works for me.
When I need to layout the centers of my windows I do one of three things: 1)I do the math, subracting the four inches, or 2) I "burn" four inches when I lay my tape down, holding the 4'' mark on the exterior rim whic is the outside wall line (OWL), or 3) I burn eight inches by laying my tape down with the 8" mark aligned on the interior wall line (IWL).
This might very well seem confusing to anyone that hasn't worked with brick very much, but I started my career building brick veneer houses and I've never seen the windows dimensioned from the frame, when a brick veneer is called for. The confusing situation are when the brick only goes partway up the wall and in those situations I've learned to scrutinize and study the dimensioning to be sure I'm pulling from the proper place.
The logic behind this is that all exterior dimensions are pulled from the outermost line of the building footprint.
blue
"I don't know that there's any good reason to do either."Somebody mentioned that he likes to be able to set the weight of the sheet on the foundation while he nails when the sheathing is laid out to be even with the foundation.for me, we usually sheathe then stand the wall. But also from a standpoint of weather and infiltration, I like to hang the sheathing about an inch below the bottom of the wood, over the crete.
reason - The poured conrete wall is never perfect. we build the floor box out and the walls on it, then drop the sheathing down over the crete.Then the siding gets to drop another 1/2" or so. Keeps all that wind and water away from the joint between crete and wood.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Wouldn't the sheathing that is in contact with the foundation have to be treated?
blue
It is not in direct contact with the crete, except maybe in a few spots. Most runs 1/16" to 1/4" off the crete, which as you know is never as poerfect as we carpenters would like ti to be.I gotcha on the mental burning the dimension. seems easy to incorporate errors unless you are used to doing it. I know they usually use 4" but that is not really best. The brick is 3-5/8" and needs a drainage plane, then the sheathing, so if I had braick top work to I would be dimensioning for at least 4-1/2" to stud, but 5" would be safer and better.But I'm sure if i lived in your area, I might learn different.
That is the point of things for this OP here, He should know what is prevailing in his area! Not genericly around the country.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, the architects use a 4" dimension to designate brick, but we don't actually build it that way. That fact tends to confuse the newbies when they start out their layout career.
We build our brick pockets using a utility grade 1x material with 2x4 blocks nailed to it to create a 4 1/4" pocket.
The problem with creating a deeper brick space occurs when the brick meets the window and door brickmolds. Instead of butting up against them, there will be a gap because the brickmold would have to increase if you have a deeper pocket.
41/4" has proven over time to be an adequate pocket. It give the mason enough finger space and it also creates enough air space to do the job.
blue
To the guys who sheath walls before standing them, how do you keep the dang plates straight? Pull diagnals to make sure the thing is square is a no-brainer, but what about bows up or down in the plates?
Do you have to chalk a line on the deck or pull a string line to make sure the plate is in line and nail it in place while sheathing? We pre-sheathed one long wall last year that had a very slight upward bow--not so good since it was a quite stiff shear wall that didn't want to suck down tight. With a well cut (tight joints) 2x6 doug fir, 16" oc, with horizontal blocking at 4', wall it's not exactly easy to get anything to move.
Trout:
You can essentially square the whole wall to the sheathing. Mark each stud where the sheathing should break and make sure when nailing off the sheathing that it's on the marks. Sheathing is straight and square so it's impossible to screw this up when doing it this way.
Seeking perfection in an imperfect world is a fool's errand. Making something look perfect is a whole 'nother story . . . .
dos..
convention is:
dimension from exterior of FRAMING to exterior of FRAMING.. the sheathing is not part of the dimension
on interior strings , i prefer : thickness of wall- face of wall to face of wall-thickness of wall -face of wall to face of wall... etc..
i like the center line of openings for dimensioning.. unless you have a detail that has to be hit.. like cabinets flanking windows
and give the string and check it against the overall for agreement
sheathing depends on the background of the framer, most framers in the US frame and sheath on the deck, aligning the plate to a snapped line and squaring the frame before sheathing..
some areas of the country sheath after the wall is up and plumbed & lined,
in wind /seismic areas the sequence gets a little more convoluted because of the requirement to tie the sheathing from sill to wall to wall to plate..
the foundation dimension is typically the same dimension as the framing dimension, so.. the outside edge of the frame aligns vertically over the ouside edge of the foundation.. but this is a theoretical. since the foundation is often slightly out of square or dimension, but the frame has to be true so adjustments are made
these are conventions.. and most conventions follow the same as Architectural Graphics Standards
anything varying from standards should be detailed to convey the intent of the designer to the builder
on brick .. if it is veneer, then it is normally supported on a ledge and is usually outside of the framing dimension line
if it is structural, then it is the frame, and the face of brick becomes the dimensioning point
this should be made clear in a section drawing Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
convention is:
dimension from exterior of FRAMING to exterior of FRAMING.. the sheathing is not part of the dimension
Mike, I've only worked for one architect that dimensioned that way around here. Since it was an oddity, most of the suppliers weren't aware of that and you had to study the details to determine that it was done this way.
If all the contractors aren't on the same page, the house will end up being 1" short in both directions. Since the foundation contractors didn't notice that detail, because they probably never see a wall section sheet, every house for that builder was undersized 1" in both directions! Unfortunatly, that 1'' was often critical and we always had to make a decision on which room to cheat. It causes unnecessary headaches.
blue
blue.. i know for a fact that the framing dimension is the standard reference
i also know that lots of people don't known that, which doesn't change what the standard is
if you don't dimension to the framing, then why dimension to the sheathing, why not the siding ?
or.. if the sheathing changes from 1/2" to 5/8" or 3/4" does the house shrink accordingly ?..
the dimension on the plans is to the framing.. IF... the builder wants to include his face of sheathing in his calculations he can... but he must know what the effect will be on the outcome
think about it... are the plywood corners supposed to lap ? if so ( given (2) layers of 1/2" ) which way do you adjust the 1" difference .. from front to back or from gable end to gable end.. or do you round- robin it so each side is only 1/2 out "
...........to be continued ..........Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I'm not challenging what the standard is. I am explaining what happens when only one architect uses the standard in a region that never sees it.
Why not dimenion to the siding? Because the siding sits outside the foundation.
if the sheathing changes from 1/2" to 5/8" or 3/4" does the house shrink accordingly ?..
Yes, unless the architect knew in advance what the sheathing dimension was going to be. In the 80's 1" foam was popular and every house was drawn assuming 1/2 Celotex fibreboard. Each of those houses were shrunk to accomodate the extra thickness sheathing.
the dimension on the plans is to the framing.. IF... the builder wants to include his face of sheathing in his calculations he can... but he must know what the effect will be on the outcome
I'm telling you what the outcome is: no one will notice and the house will be smaller than planned for. Alternatively, the brick space will be larger and the brick will hang over the brickledge by 1/2". That in itself isn't a problem, but the framers would have to understand before they framed their deck and hang the deck over the foundation wall around here, because we don't run the sheathing past the wall. The sheathing sits flush with the rim.
think about it... are the plywood corners supposed to lap
No. Our plywood does not lap the corners and therein lies our regional differneces.
blue
our plywood corners don't lap either..
just so we're not arguing about the same position...here's an example :
if a wood framed / ply sheathed house is 24' x 36' ... what is the size of the frame ? is it 24x36 ? or 23' - 11" x 35' - 11" ?
and what is the size of the foundation ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
blue... here's my source:
AIA Ramsey & Sleeper's Architectural Graphics Standard : 6th edition
Appendix : Conventions for Architectural Drawings, pg. 653
masonry walls are dimensioned out to out
framed walls are dimensioned "face of stud to face of stud"
and the dimension tic mark actually sits in at the inside of the sheathing line
but .. the overall dimsnsions are face of stud to face of stud
7th Edition uses exactly the same figure, only it's on page 752 ..
i stopped buying AGS after the 7th edition.. i think they went to 12 editions and now it's on CDMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Any idea where the best price is on the CD?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
google on Berryvale Software.. my Chief Dealer in Maine..
they sell it .. i would imagine you could maybe find it on Amazon alsoMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Now I know where that architect got his idea to dimension from the outside of the frame! LOL!
That particular archy was an uncle to my guy Ben. The uncle was an idiot. We had to make some serious alterations in their houses because the plans were drawn with 9" runs going upstairs and the city would only accept 10" runs. That 15" difference in drawings vs reality played hell with the arched opening leading to the great room.
The architect sent out some unbelievably stupid detail telling us how to deal with the situation and we promptly burned it in the firebucket. We built it ourselves and the architect had to come out to look at what we did, so he could draw it. He was a pompous #### and he treated his nephew Ben like dog terds.
blue
Mike, that's a good question!
I'm going to assume wood siding or vinyl siding.
Our foundation would be 24 x 36 and our outside wall lines (OWLs) would be 24 x 36. The osb would be flush with the rim and the rim would be flush with the foundation. The siding thickness would add to the overall dimension.
blue
so with 1/2" sheathing, your frame would be the 23' - 11" x 35' - 11"
doesn't make sense.. does your 4th stud move over 1/2" ? ie: is the center of the 4th stud laid out at 47 1/2 " ?
i know that masonry walls ( not veneer ) are dimensioned from out-to-out...but framed walls are face to face and the sheathing be damned..
are we on the same page ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
doesn't make sense.. does your 4th stud move over 1/2" ? ie: is the center of the 4th stud laid out at 47 1/2 " ?
Doesn't make sense? !!!
Of course it makes sense. You are obviously overfocused on the sheathing layout at this point in the discussion.
Seriously, the stud layout is only perfect on the lower walls anyways, so it's not really that big of a deal. Since all our houses have brick down, the upper walls will have an extra 4'' space anyways, so we know how to deal with layouts that don't fit a piece of plywood perfectly.
Now, to answer your question: we lay our studs out by marking the center with a big black marker. So, when I pull the layout, I hook my tape on the end of the wall and jsut mark the 16,32,48 etc. That puts a stud directly centered on each seam. That works for the first wall, on one side only.
so with 1/2" sheathing, your frame would be the 23' - 11" x 35' - 11"
I guess you could say that, except that when we talk about pulling measurements from the outside wall, we always mean outside of sheathing. If perchance we want a dimension pulled from the outside frame, we will explicitly make it abundantly clear because that is not the norm.
Heres a pic of a typical wall section. This particular drawing depicts a wall with brick veneer. You cant tell from the floor plan, but the brick only goes up to the bottom of those windows.
I've circled the exterior wall dimensions. The side walls show 8 1/2". The rear wall shows 10 1/2". That tells me that I have a 4" frame wall on the side and a 2x6 framed wall in the rear.
Notice that no dimension is pulled from the outside of the frame. I honestly don't remember ever seeing a dimension pulled from the outside of a frame wall, when there was brick veneer involved except for that nasty uncle of Bens.
Edit:See following posts for the attachment.
blue
Edited 3/4/2006 6:38 pm ET by blueeyeddevil
Attachment:
look richard.. they're dimensioning to the foundation lines and telling the builder to back everything off that
View Image
the thing that's screwing this pooch is the brick veneer... they're treating it like it's a full masonry wall
i tol u & tol u.. the convention is out- to -out for masonry and face- of- stud to face- of- stud for frame.... your niche of the country has developed a hybrid for their brick veneers
anyways on a properly dimensioned and true foundation .. the frame will line with the foundation and the sheathing will be proud of the foundation.. there will be a plumb line from the sill to the band to the shoe , stud & plate...
take my word for it.. or ask some of the architects lurking on the site....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
anyways on a properly dimensioned and true foundation .. the frame will line with the foundation and the sheathing will be proud of the foundation.. there will be a plumb line from the sill to the band to the shoe , stud & plate...
Now hold on just a minute there buster. I don't mind you tellin' me that the Architects convention is to dimension from frame to frame. That, I won't argue with you. But when you start saying things like "properly dimensioned" and "the sheathing will be proud of the foundation" then we're going to have a disagreement.
In all my years, I've never framed a house that was intentionally built with the sheathing proud of the foundation.
blue
why in the world would you want your sheathing sitting on the slab?dimensions on the plans are always for the frame not sheathing or drywall. do you actually chalk all your lines a 1/2" in from the foundation. i'm not trying to sound like a jerk, just interested.
RTC
Sorry, can't answer RTC. I've never framed on a slab.
blue
well i've never framed on a basement.
Err, Sorry Mike, those dimensions are from the outside of the brick, to the inside of the drywall. There isn't anything dimensioned to the frame on that drawing.
It's obvioius that regional differences are in play here.
blue
another way of looking at it would be on a an 8' module (laying the sheets down )
the frame would be 3 sheets x 3 1/2 sheets ..... the only way that works without fudging is to make the frame ( face of stud to face of stud ) a true 24 x 36
as for ben's uncle being an architect and an azz .. what does that have to do with the conventions of dimensioning ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
as for ben's uncle being an architect and an azz .. what does that have to do with the conventions of dimensioning
Coincidence? Or is there something else there?
blue
I've just been sitting at Blue's feet to learn from him.Apparantly, when the siding is brick, he does dimension from the siding face
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sheathing is straight and square so it's impossible to screw this up when doing it this way.
I'll have to pass this on to the lumberyard minions so they can start ordering our regional osb a little more square. :-)
Seriously, we've had sheet end cuts 1/8" out in 4', so putting them together end to end on a long wall we'd either have a bowed wall that would shed water with a flat roof, or something resembling flat if lucky (although the studs would then be out of plumb to match the osb even if the plates were flat).
We've had carps use that method and try to get by with a 1/4" gap under the ends of the plate--and complain about having to resheath it after they can't get it down to the deck. Why build a flat deck if the wall plate is only going to sit tight on the ends (or middle) of the wall?
>>"Seriously, we've had sheet end cuts 1/8" out in 4'
Youch! Thanks for the heads up. Never had a problem with that (even with a truckload of 3/4" Chinese ply that one former boss got at auction for low $$$). Not to "ding" anyone, but what brand were you using?
I guess from now on, have to keep an eye out for that. What a PITA. Ply (&OSB) is made in a factory -- you'd hope they'd have to try to end up with cut ends off square!?
Seeking perfection in an imperfect world is a fool's errand. Making something look perfect is a whole 'nother story . . . .
Ply (&OSB) is made in a factory
Once saw how OSB is cut: the sheets are moving 50 mph and a blade on a diagnal track zipps across at 100 mph, lifts, returns and zips the next sheet. Apparently we had a bunk cut after the rookie mechanic was working on the 100 mph saw.
Trout, we used to use that method and when the deck didn't meet the wall, we'd raise and ship the deck up tite. Since the walls were straight, this technique was/is a very fast and easy way to plane the decks perfectly flat.
blue
Trout, if you want your wall to be straight after it's raised, you better have it straight while you sheath it.
There are several methods and snapping the line and toe nailing the wall to the straight line is probably the most common. When we use this method, we toe nail every 4'.
I believe that this is the best way to obtain a quality product. If you are working on uneven slabs, I think I'd be thinking about filling the voids created with some form of grout.
blue
<if you want your wall to be straight after it's raised, you better have it straight while you sheath it.>Does this also apply to when you are nailing soffits on your wallwhen laying on the ground?I found out the hard way when nailing 12" soffit on a wall we built on the deck that if there is any we waws in it that it will be next to impossible to straighten after the wall has been raised. The soffit on edge is very rigid espicially when nailed with a 2x2 on the wall and a 2x4 on the outside edge. So afterthat I started stringing/sighting walls before nailing soffiton and eliminated the problem. Does that make sense? I'm also very anal and the bowwas less than a 1/4", but on a outside wall with rafters I wantit dead straight.
Does this also apply to when you are nailing soffits on your wall
when laying on the ground?
Yes Butch is does!!!!
That very fact was the lightbulb that went off in my head during my first year of my apprenticeship. I couldn't wrap my arm around the framing techniques that I was doing until one day, we were having a beverage and talking about the job and the boss said "if you build the overhang with a bow in it, and nail it tight to the wall, the wall will mirror the bow." With that statement, the lightbulb went off and ever since then, I build everything straight right from the "gitgo".
If you are very anal about how straight you want your walls and overhangs, this is the best system for doing them. With your wall laying flat, install your straight overhang. We keep the fascia edge of the overhang true and butt all joints perfectly parallel. This insures that the entire length is true. We then nail it securely into the frieze and when we raise the wall, the wall will remain straight because the overhang is ridid, like you've discovered.
When you straighten the wall, it will generally have long gradeful bows that are very easy to eliminate. I normally start by plumbing the center of the wall as a starting point and when I put my eagle eye on the wall, it will be perfect nine times out of ten on walls up to 30 feet. On longer wall, start with two plumbed points and the wall will be true.
One other critical element for having and maintaining really nice straight true long walls: don't cut any of the top plate out. That will significantly weaken the wall and doesn't do anything but please the grandpappy carpenters that are dead and buried.
blue
70364.34 in reply to 70364.28
There are several methods and snapping the line and toe nailing the wall to the straight line is probably the most common. When we use this method, we toe nail every 4'.
Thanks for the info. It makes sense and we'll be giving it a try next week.
Trout, one other thing. Before I set the plates up to be tacked on the line, I install some metal strapping that will wrap up and hold the wall from sliding off when we raise it. I use brick ties at 8' intervals for most walls.
blue
The only reason to put sheeting on a wall after it's up is so the wall has had a chance to settle a bit.It's easier and more cost effective to put the sheeting and tyvek on the walls when you're building them (laying down).It's better for the building to sheet afterwards, after the house has settled a bit.
Framing is a necessary evil for me so take the following for what it's worth.
When working for a GC who had an in-house draftsman (actually a female drafts-hottie) we'd have the dimesions of everything on a wall measured from one point in the order they are marked on the plates so we simply pull a tape and transfer the measurements without a lot of dorking around with center measurements of openings, incomplete measurements, etc. This does require more work on the drafting end to make sure everything is correctly sized, so that has to be worked out within your organization. The guys in the field won't trust that you actually know the exact RO's so they need to have the information to double check.
When framing from drawings, is it easier to have dimensions to studs, or sheathing?
If I'm laying out a wall, I'm working with the studs so having to subtract for the sheathing is one extra step. It doesn't really matter, just add a note to the plans one way or the other if it will make a difference. Maybe my houses have always been built 1" wider and longer if drawn to sheathing and I didn't know it.
When framing walls, do you sheath then laying down, or when in place vertically?
On first floors when the walls are in place, on second floors while the wall is down.
Do you align the sheathing with block foundation wall, or do you align the studs with the block wall, and let the sheathing 'hang out'?
The second sill plate is set to the exact dimensions of the build and the rest is built off it. If we framed to match the foundation we'd never have a square corner.
"This does require more work on the drafting end to make sure everything is correctly sized, so that has to be worked out within your organization."Actually, if the drafthottie was using a good CAD prigram, it was no extra work at all.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!