Customer calls me up and asks me: “Are the floors in my new house designed for 500 PSF? I want to buy a front loader washer and that is what the sales person says is required. ” My answer was a quick “No”. I explained that that would be highly unusual and further more asked him to check back with the store to see if 500 PSF was really required. I assume he meant 500 PSF LL + DL, although I’m sure he personally had no idea what any of the terminology meant. Later he told me that he had decided not to buy the front loader… no further explanation. Then, the other day, I read something very brief about beefing floor systems for front load washers to control vibration caused by the spin cycle….
Anyone know anything about this?
BTW – did a search and found nothing…
Replies
Uhh..... I don't know what PSF is, and I've just built a brand new house with two brand new front loaders. One sits on concrete, the other on a floor package. In my opinion there's nothing different in the floor requirementssd between T/L and F/L. All washers shake like hell, regardless of type. Deign the house accordingly.
Scott.
Pounds per sq foot. If you have an engineered floor system - either I-joists or floor trusses, it would normally give the PSF on the design/layout sheet.
Concrete floor would be no porblem. Most normal wood framed residential floors are designed for between 40 and 70 PSF.
I think I'd want to beef up a wood floor for a washer and dryer, front load or not. I have Kenmore front-loaders, and they spin at 1200 rpm and shake like mad. They're on concrete basement slab now, I wouldn't try putting them upstairs.
Edit: 500 pounds per square foot? That's (very generally) saying that your full washing machine transmits over a ton and a half of weight to the floor system. I'd try to size for maybe 100 psf or 150 psf under a washer and dryer, put a bearing wall or basement supports under them, and try to place them near the end of a joist span.
Edited 11/27/2005 11:08 am ET by JonE
"500 PSF"? That's stout, man.
>> "500 PSF"? That's stout, man. <<
You betcha!!!!!! that's why I asked the Q!! I kind of wonder if it is maybe so that for almost any installation the washer manafacturer can blame house construction on excessive vibration.
Front loading washers spin much faster than regular washers, and they spin in a horizontal plane.
The big problem is when you use a front load washer on the second story of a wood frames house. The shake is un-nerving. I have installed laundry rooms on the second floor and build a 10" high platform for better ergonomics, I also install a vibration dampener under the platform 1/2 rubber of any type should work (I've used old welcome mats). Most front enders offer a selection switch for fast spin and normal spin, running on normal works much more quietly. I also eliminate the extra rinse cycle.
running on normal works much more quietly. I also eliminate the extra rinse cycle.But that is defeating what the whole purpose of a Horizontal Axis machine does. The high speed spin helps to wring out all the excessmoisture, which in turns means you don't have to run the dryer aslong.
Butch, your right, not to mention that you paid alot extra for that performance. I would not install above first floor unless I built an "isolated" platform for it. However, you can get top loaders with "energy star" ratings, which may be a good compromise for second floor laundrys.
My front loader on second floor without vibration dampeners fell apart after 2 years, the Frigidaire tech said it is because of the whole vibration thing, and they do not recommend it on second floor. If I ever bought another one, I would buy the longest extended warrantee availale.
The laundry in question is indeed a 2nd floor installation.
I'm thinking that if a platform were to be used, it should be built at framing time - super sturdy and glued, screwed and tattooed to the framing... On the other hand, not sure how the installation could be both dampened and/or isolated and extremely strong... Maybe I'm on the wrong page here... Or, maybe the dampening would just take the form of a rubber mat under the washer. Remember I'm talking about houses built for the general public - not DIY spare no expense construction...
Hmmm, interesting to hear that a Frigidaire could fall apart when installed on the 2nd floor. I have had one installed in our former basement for 3 years without complaints. Now it's installed on the 2nd floor of my new house... should be interesting.At my in-laws, I built a 18" high platform from 2x6 and 6x6 to elevate the washer and dryer 18" off the ground (this was in the days before they made the platforms w/drawers they sell today). Despite very heavy use, that frigidaire washer hasn't shaken itself to pieces.BTW, the reason front-loaders tend to be heavy is the judicious use of concrete in them. That helps dampen the vibrations that a uneven load imposes. For a great top-loader look no further than the GWL10 or eqv. from Fisher-Paykel. Fantastic washers, though the dryers aren't so great.
>> I also eliminate the extra rinse cycle.
I tried to do that a couple times, for conservation reasons, didn't go too well with DW. She's of the "more is better" mindset. As in: wash some clothes after they've been worn for a couple hours, a bath towel after one use, ... you get the picture :-)
i think the salesperson meant 50 psf.
carpenter in transition
That's what I thought. That's why I asked for clairification from my customer - and I imediately stated that it must be a mistake. The floor is actually 10 PSF DL, 50 PSF LL for a total of 60 PSF. I need to talk to the sales person to get some appliances ordered, and I'll check it then.
We recently did a kitchen and laundry remodel where the client purchased these high-end front load washer and dryers. I have found that it pays to have all your appliances delivered before work starts and go through eash installation manual throughly. Things are changing so fast now that state-of-the-art is constantly changing. The washing machine came with all sorts of requirements, one of which was to place a piece of 3/4 ply under the washing machine. Needless to say we did not do this because of the aesthetics, who knows what will happen because of this.
We are constantly encountering loopy requirements for appliances, especially the high-end stuff from europe. These appliances look awesome, but are not readily adaptable to how we build here.
I looked at the Maytag website and found the installation manual for a front load washer. All it said about the floor is, "For best performance the washer must be installed on a solidly constructed floor. Wood floors may need to be reinforced to minimize vibration and/or unbalanced load situations. Carpeting and soft tile surfaces are contributing factors in vibration and/or tendency for a washer to move slightly during the spin cycle. Never install the washer on a platform or weakly supported structure."
Odd, since it's preferred to install a front-loader on a platform, for easy access.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
My folks bought a Westinghouse front loading washer and dryer way back in the late 1950s, and used them until they passed away in the 1990s. They sat on the floor in the corner of the kitchen. I don't think anyone ever thought of putting them on platforms for easier access back then, but I don't remember that they were particularly difficult to load or unload.The washer did make quite a bit of noise and vibration when it spun the clothes - I remember being in the basement goofing around at the workbench, which sat right underneath the washer, when that thing kicked into the spin cycle. It sounded like it was going to come right through the floor. :-) No harm done, though...Mother used it several times a week for nearly 40 years with no problems.
Many years back my parents had a Bendix. It was in the basement, on a poured concrete platform that raised it maybe four inches. I don't know the story behind the platform, but basement floors back then were often only an inch thick, so the concrete may have been poured to assure a solid base.Re the general floor issue, I would think that it should be adequate to somehow stiffen the floor to spread the load. This would probably be a good application for a cementatious tile substrate product, mudded to the existing floor.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Sounds like the salesman talked himself out of a sale by sloppy reading, unless there was a typo somewhere
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
My customer ordered something else instead. We have an agreement with Sears (of all places) which is great for me because I don't have to hand hold the customer.... (It's called Sears Commercial Sales) They sell many brands and my co gets a small cut and the customer a discount so everybody is happy. Sears get's to sell this customer a $4200 range, $1200 range hood, micro, DW, Disp, fridge, Wash & Dry. This guy has expensive tastes too. It's great for me cause all I have to do is 1) charge customer for extras and 2) pick up the phone and say "send me the appliances on x day". Still not sure a about 500 PSF floors though... Personally, I think it's a joke!
Of course it's a joke!Everyone knows that washeres don't have square feet. They're all hexangonal with round rubbers
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>> They're all hexangonal with round rubbers << Would that be the same as foot condoms?
Matt:
We have the Bosch Nexxt washer and dryer in our basement. Very pleased with the cleaning and drying performance. (Be sure to read instructions regarding filters that work on both clean water supply and discharge water; our washer told us to clean them out!). When the washer spins to wet-dry, it sounds like a jet taking off.
Since it's on the concrete floor slab, vibration isn't an issue - but you may wish to contact the w& d vendor to see what their experience has been on joist-supported floors (i.e. any somewhat irate calls regarding vibration?).
We've got the Bosch front load also - the small one designed to mount under a counter. Axxis I think. Anyway, we have installed on the second floor bathroom, and I don't notice any vibration problem. Floor is 10" joists, 16" centers with plywood, hardiboard and tile. The span is only 6' there.Generally speaking, if you have a second floor washer, you need some form of protection from overflow. We just added a floor drain, since it was the bathroom. I don't know if those pans would count or not.
I live on the second floor (wood) over my wood shop, clear span 26 ft ceilling. We just bought a new Maytag Neptune (current model)front loader. It works great, some minor vibration during spin but does not shake the house or cause any other problems. After doing a lot of reasearch we picked the Neptune since it was the only one designed to run on a wood floor. I never would have thought about it but a friend bought a Whirlpool, has it on a wood floor and it shakes the house real bad, rattles the dishes in the cabs.. Did a google search and found many comments about front loaders and wood floors all mentioned the excessive vibration caused by all front loaders including the older model Maytag Neptune. Somehow Maytag fixed the problem and we really like ours.
We have the whirlpool, a wood floor (9.5" I joists 16" o.c. 15' span, 3/4 osb decking) and don't notice vibration more than any other washer - I was concerned about this and thought about rubber pads etc., but no problems. The washer is very heavy to install, but my hand truck (and I) would have collapsed at 500 psf, so its not THAT heavy.
These washers are expensive, but why should I have all the best tools and my wife not. She loves the speed and capacity of the washer and dryer. It really is faster. I would venture that any modern house, coupled with some attention to leveling the washer, should be fine.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
I guess there must be other factors that come into play, sounds like your floor is better than most. The only first hand experience I have with the whirlpool is my buddys house. 16 ft. 2x10, 16 oc. 3/4 ply. Washer is located right next to the common wall with the interior partition, masonary wall underneith. Makes the house feel like you just put a quarter in one of those cheap motel beds.
>> 16 ft. 2x10, 16 oc. 3/4 ply. << That's overspanned even without a frontload washer, etc.
Well not really, I forgot to mention there is a beam in the basement, span of 8 ft another at 10 ft. (rough numbers)
That makes a difference.... :-)
OK - I talked to one of the commercial (builder) sales people today. A different one than my customer had talked to. Apparently the washer in question is a Kenmore but actually made by Whirlpool. She looked it up and the found that the washer/dryer needed a floor capable of supporting 600 # if the units were stacked. If not stacked the floor below the washer needed a floor capable of supporting 400 #s. So I don't know where the 500 PSF came from but it was likely wrong - even the sales lady said "500 PSF!!!! that would be a concrete floor!!! "
On the other hand, if the floor below the washer had to support 400 #s and the washer footprint is roughly 2' x 2' that would be 4 sq ft or 100 #s per sq ft. The floor which is 14" tall open web trusses is designed to 60 PSF, so I'm glad my customer decided to get a different washer.
Had I know about the whole thing ahead of time, I'm guessing that an extra layer of 3/4" floor sheathing and maybe some extra strong backs between the truss webs would have distributed the load well enough... The extra floor sheathing would have caused flooring/door problems though. I guess really the right answer would have been for the floor to be designed for some extra load which would probably amount to an extra floor truss in that area.
Here is an update... Now the customer tells me he did order the front loader... I told him to get a rubber mat to but under it. Anyone got a specific type of mat for a recommendation?
I was told the rubber mat will make it worse, be best to check on it before spending the money.
Yea - I was kinda wondering if it might give it more of an ability to shake around...
I have a front loader on the second floor...on TJIs. No special platform or vibration damping.
This thing is dead quiet (zero vibration/resonating) compared to the Kenmore top loader that we replaced, and we're running it on the top spin speed.
500 psf? As you figured out, he misread.
I've installed 2 of these (my house and a rental unit). I did nothing to the floors ('standard' construction, existing houses). I DID experience the shaking effect, subsequently took a lot of care to level the units, and have had no problem since.
I have a Maytag Neptune stacked unit on my second floor. Didn't do anything special. Very little shake. Definately a lot less than a typical top loader. My floors are 80 years old 10" joists (all vary between 9 1/4 and 10"), approximately 16' on center with 11 foot span, and 3/4 inch T&G flooring that is loosely attached.