I will be undertaking a garage conversion soon and I will be posting questions along the way on this thread and would appreciate anyone who would like to chime in.
The garage is roughly 26’x26′. I will be adding exterior doors and windows, framing a small bedroom and bath, livingroom, a storage area with attic stairs, and framing the floor over the existing concrete floor with 2×6’s and insulating.
My first question out of the gate pertains to framing the rough openings for the Entry doors and windows. What is the proper technique for making these openings? Should I frame the openings from the inside and then cut out the siding (T 1-11) once all the framing is in place?
Mick
Replies
>frame the openings from the inside and then cut out the siding (T 1-11) once all the framing is in place?<
That's been my preferred method. Keeps it all nice & secured until you're ready to fill the opening with a door/window.
John,
Should the existing studs be totally removed from the area for the rough openings so that framing can be done from "scratch"? Or is it more logical to just cut out areas of the studs and fill in? If the latter is best, what is a good way to make the cuts in the existing studs to keep them all flush/level and seperate them from the siding?
I've always cut across instead of all new when I can. I make first cuts across the studs with a circ saw and then finish up with a recip saw or hand saw. Be sure to calculate the height correctly ie rough opening height & widtch and then add the header height and double check that too.
John,
Thanks, that's the way I planned on approaching it. It's always good to get confirmation.
As far as cuuting out the actual siding once the planned opening is framed, I figured I would drill a hole for a reference point in each corner from the inside, snap lines on the outside and cut it out with the circular saw then recip. saw to finish corners where circ saw can't get, or should say stops short. Do you have a techique for marking and cutting the siding that would be better than this? Or is this kind of how it is done?
Are the new doors located where the existing foundation walls are above what will be finish floor height? If so might want to rethink your plan and cut and remove the concrete first. Won't matter for windows.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"If so might want to rethink your plan and cut and remove the concrete first."
I'm not sure I follow what you mean. I planned on framing out the floor deck (2x6 joists---3/4" ply). Then once I had my finished height of the raised floor I would cut out for doors. Am I approaching this incorrectly?
Well I did make an assumption. Most garages I am familiar with have a foundation wall that is anywhere from 12-24" tall above the slab. If you have a slab on grade it won't matter, Depending on how the relative height of your finish floor in regards to the height of the foundation then you may still have a portion of the foundation wall being above the finish floor.
Harder to cut and remove the concrete after the door way is framed IMO.
At the door ways I would open the wall , remove the framing , cut the concrete out and then re-frame the doorway.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The slab is on grade so no problem with concrete being in the way.
Yes, I agree it would be harder to cut out for openings if there was a foundation wall.
Let me ask you this. I will be framing the floor with 2x6 as I had mentioned, and I figure I will set a "ledger" board around the perimeter walls and set the joists in Joist hangers, like you would do with a deck. I have roughly a 26' foot span across the garage. How would you handle the joists as far as layout, can I get 2x6 that long? Or should I run a "beam" across the middle and break it into two halfs?
2x6 span on 16"oc is going to be somewhere around 9'6" IIRC.
I'm wondering if there needs to be any airflow under the floor once it's done, similar to a crawl space...
John,
I was wondering the same thing about air flow underneath, how do I know if I need to allow for that? And how much, I don't know.
"2x6 span on 16"oc is going to be somewhere around 9'6" IIRC."
I'm not sure what IIRC means, could you explain for me?
Hopefully someone else will chime in on the airflow, it's just something floating in the back of my head right now and not sure why.
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly
John,
With the span for 2x6 being around 9'6", how would you suggest I get support underneath when it's on grade, shims?
Well if they're sitting on grade there isn't much spanning going on so span tables are irrelevant then.
There would be another concern though I think. Concrete is always weeping mositure someway. Leave something against it long enough and it will absorb moisture from the CC. I'd look to create a water barrier between the wood and the CC.
The framing will be sitting on grade, but it won't actually be "sitting on" grade fully. The slab has it's high and low spots and uneveness. I figured I would find the highest point and frame at that level, then shim up all the low areas, does this sound logical?
"I'd look to create a water barrier between the wood and the CC."
A sheet of plastic maybe, like prepping a slab for hardwood floors?
>A sheet of plastic maybe, like prepping a slab for hardwood floors?<
makes sense
Wouldn't hurt to drop a sheet just to be safe right?
I am going to be making one half of the garage (livingroom) area cathedral and the other side over the bedroom and bath will be for attic space. Would 2x8' be acceptable for support? There will be support underneath from the one bedroom wall out about 10-12' and then another 5' further down at the other side of the bath wall.
Lot's of stuff going on there structurally... are you removing existing ceiling joists to make the cathedral? What's there for a ridge? and what's supporting the ridge at each end?
2x8s for... where?
"2x8s for... where?"
They would be the ceiling "joists" for the bedroom /bathroom/storage room and at the same time be the floor joists for the attic.
"Lot's of stuff going on there structurally"
As far as what? I don't need to remove anything to have one side of the garage cathedral, just leaving one side the way it is, and the other side is being framed from floor to ceiling right down the middle pretty much.
"are you removing existing ceiling joists to make the cathedral?"
None to remove.
Gotcha! What's the spans for the 2x8s? Just a ceiling & attic load right?
Yes, just a ceiling and attic load.
The span across the whole garage is 26'
If you picture standing in the garage looking to the left (side). I will be framing for a small bedroom on the left, starting from the front exterior wall out about 12'. (1st partition wall). Then the bathroom will be next to that, and that will be 5' to the next partition wall. From that wall to the back exterior wall will be a storage/workshop. So that would span about 9'.
So, would you say 2x8 is the size to go with?
I'm missing it.. whats the longest distance the ceiling joists will run unsupported? Or to word it a diffent way, what's the longest distance between supports for the ceiling joists? That will be the span. If there are any intermediate supports along the length this cuts the span into 2 separate sections.
Ceiling joist spans:2x8 on 16"oc will span 18' max2x8 on 12"oc will span 20' max
I was trying to give you an idea of the layout along with the spans on the last post and guess I confused you.
The spans will be aprox. 12'-5'-9'
So it looks like from your info that 2x8 would be fine, correct?
Can I get 2x8 long enough to go across entire length? Do 2x8 even come in lengths that long?
Check your local yard for the lengths available but I don't think it's impossible, but long lenghts tend tom come with a premium price.
2x8 will meet & exceed the minimums. Unless there's a plan to put a lot of storage in the attic space with those spans I'd use 2x6 and use the shorter lengths to save money. (2x6 on 16"ocs spans 15'-6"). The shorter 2x in any width/length tend to be cheaper per foot. If these were floor joists were were talking about I would go with the widers joists but since there for ceiling joists the $$$ can be better spent elsewhere. There won't be any noticeable difference once the DW is on.
Any particular reason you want to use joists for the floor? Leveling issues, perhaps?
"Any particular reason you want to use joists for the floor? Leveling issues, perhaps?"
You got it. Also would like to insulate between the joists. Might end up laying hardwood floor in the livingroom area.
What's the alternative if no floor is framed? carpet?
I'll go with the 2x8 to be on the safe side in case the attic fills up.
If I was to go with the shorter lengths as you mentioned, what lengths would you use? Just overlap them and nail them together? I would imagine that there would have to be support directly underneath any "splices" correct?
I was thinking 16's would work. break them over the walls so you don't have anything hanging out in the middle creating weird movement on the middle of the finished ceiling. There will be some extras, mayb euse for blocking.
go down to the Tavern to see my latest helper. 104188.1
Sounds like a plan.
John,
I'm going to use 3/4" ply for floor and attic space deck. Any particular type such as "CDX" or another that should be my choice?
I'd use advantech for the floor decking if you got it in your area otherwise a 3/4 tougne & groove would be good for the floor. For the attic, 3/4 anythig would be good, maybe even a 5/8 or 1/2. The 1/2 ought to be stiff enough with ceiling joists at 16oc (they use 1/2 on 24ocs for roof deck so ought o be fine for an attic floor).
I'm not familiar with advantech, I'll check with the local suppliers. Is advantech a special kind of ply? Would this be something HD or Lowes would stock?
You think that 7/8" "waferboard" material is strong enough for the attic floor? I have a bunch left over from previous project?
On the subject of floor/attic deck. Is it acceptable to nail off with air nailer or does it need to be screwed? I know screwing is the better way to go, but obviously much faster to nail it off with the gun. I figured I would run a bead of Pl Premium Adhesive on the joists and nail off the ply, but if it "should" be screwed off will do it that way, as I'm not the type to "short cut" things and compromise the finished product. Alot of theses little things I'm not sure off, which is why I appreciate this forum, I learn alot from guys like you who take the time to help out. Much appreciated.
I know for sure that I saw advantech at Lowes. I'd be surprised if you can't find it locally.
Glued & nailed will be fine. Gun nails will be fine. Keep an eye out for overpenetrating. The attic deck I'd think about not gluing in the event that it has to come up in the future to access electrical.
Is the advantech the plywood that has a type of wax coating?
No, I didn't plan on gluing the attic boards.
What do you think of the 7/8" OSB that I mentioned for the attic deck? Is that stuff strong enough at 16OC ?
I will jump in here. Yes , as long as is is a rated structural panel. Look on the face and you should see a stamp marking as such and within the stamp there should be a short table of acceptable spans .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks guys. Yes I can use the OSB.
Is the advantech the wax coated boards?
Yes, it looks like wax but it's actually glue. Another thing that'll stand out is that it'll say Advantech on it somewhere.
Posted previuosly,
On the subject of floor/attic deck. Is it acceptable to nail off with air nailer or does it need to be screwed? I know screwing is the better way to go, but obviously much faster to nail it off with the gun. I figured I would run a bead of Pl Premium Adhesive on the joists and nail off the ply
PL and ring shank air nails would be fine.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I have a Porter Cable framing nailer, do they make "ring shank" nails for this gun?
Stick nailer? If so I also have an old one and the answer is Yes.
Any Senco nails or other brands that have the same degree of rake of nails in the stick should work. I can't remember off the top of my head what the degree is though.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Do you know which Porter Cable nail gun you have? FR350 full round head 22 degree plastic collated nails. FC350 33 degree clipped "D head" nailer. There are several different kinds of ring shank nails. You can probably find them locally too. This was just an example from Amazon.22 degree nails
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_hi?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=22+degree+hot+dipped+galvanized+ring+shank+nails&x=6&y=2832-34-degree clipped head paper tape collated stick nails
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_hi/002-7252148-2938420?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=33+degree+ring+shank+nailsAlso, the other post on the stand-up screw gun, my Home Depot rents those pretty cheap if you aren't going to use it frequently.
Sorry for delay in response, was away for a few days.
I have the Porter Cable FR350 Round Head Framing Nailer.
Do you know if HD carries the "ring shank" nails for this gun? Would you say a 2" nail would be suitable for the 3/4" ply? Or should I go longer?
On the subject of Plywood. I am going to try to locate the Advantech 3/4" sheets for subfloor as recommended on this thread. I saw a product at HD that sounded similar to Advantech, it was Advantage I believe, aprox. 3/4" T&G. Is this product a good substitute for Advantech?
Also, I will be tiling the floor in the bath and was thinking about using the Schluter-Ditra for a base over the "Advantech/Advantage". Is the one layer of Advantech enough for the Ditra base or will I need to add to the base?
2" - 2.5" will work. If you can I'd lean towards the 2.5" iwhich'll give you ~1.75" of rings into the joists vs 0.75".
no idea on advantage vs advantech... thought i saw it at lowes one time.
not a tile guy but there's a tile only site i can't recall rite now that i'd expect to have a good answer.. mebbe someone can post it???
I ended up picking up a box of 2 3/8" ringed this morning, it was that or 3" on the shelf.
I found some info I received from a rep from Schluter a year or so ago that had a specs book on the Ditra and according to that info, a 3/4" subfloor at 16 OC is an acceptable base for the Ditra. So, looks like I will go that route.
The product at the Depot is called Home Advantage and "supposedly" the same as Advantech (says Homer). I did a little research online and didn't see much difference between the two, but would like to hear it from someone who is familiar with the stuff. I may be laying some tomorrow, so will probably go with the HD product as it is right next door.
What is the proper amount of space that should be left on tops and sides of windows and doors for rough openings? For example if I have a door that is 8' high and 5' wide, what should the exact opening be? Is one half inch on each (top/sides) good?
Leave enough gap to get whatever you're using for air sealing (insul, foam, etc.) in there and it'll do it's job. Too much and the window seems to flaot too much (maybe not even fit if they're flanges involved), too little and you can't get the tip of the foam can in there. 1/2" gap is usually good.
In regards to staggering the seams on the subfloor, do the seams need to be staggered at half lengths? For instance with the first row I have a two full sheets and about a 7'.5" sheet.
What would be the best way to stagger the following row? Start with a 4' then a full-full-3'5" ?
the 4' offset is optimum. and your 4-8-8-3.5 is right.
4' offset worked well.
What size 2x should I use for door and window headers? 10"?
Should they be nailed together or should a piece of 1/2" ply be sandwhiched between to equal width of 2x4?
what's your opening width & what's above? 2x10s work for most everything for headers. I use 1/2 ply in between to get them flush, make the ply a little small so they don't interfere with the rest of the framing shoot them together with 16s from both sides
I have a 5 'wide French Door and several standard size windows with plenty of room above for 2x10's.
The french Door is 8' high so with the floor being raised to accomodate the 2x6 framing for subfloor I'm going to have to cut into the double 2x4 "top plate" (don't know if that is the correct term) and remove a 5' section so I can install framing for the French Door. I'm worried that I might weaken the structure cutting a piece of the top plate out like that, but I don't see any way to provide temporary support until I get the header in. Is there a certain way to approach this that I'm missing?
is it just a roof sitting on these walls or is there another floor of living space?
and does the joists of said roof or floor of living space land on top of this wall or the adjacent wall?
2x10s built into a header will work fine for your 5-0 door.
Just roof sitting on this wall. Center of the door will be directly under point of roof ( I believe this would be a "gable" roof?) This side of garage will be cathedral ceiling so no joists are running across the top plate, just the roof joists (or rafters?) which form the pitch.
on the gable end there's no live load or snow load transferred down through it to speak of, just the weight of itself. You can go down to a 2x8 header if you want and avoid cutting the top plates.
I don't know if I explained it correctly. The double 2x4 that frames the "top plate" is 8' high (the bottom sits on the slab). Now that the floor is raised, that double 2x4(top plate) is now 7'5" off the floor. The door going in the wall is 8' high, so I'll have to cut through the double 2x4 (top plate). It seems to me the gable end will hold itself in place when the top plate is cutout and studs are removed for reframing. Thoughts?
yes, the gable end will hold itself up long enough for you to do your framing.
8' high door isn't common. Most are 6'-8" and then add jambs to make the RO ht somewhere around 83". Is it an 8' high door?
wha'ts the plan for restoring the stiffness of the plate once it's cut?
Yes, it is an 8' high door, and yes that is an uncommon size.
"wha'ts the plan for restoring the stiffness of the plate once it's cut?"
Where the plate will be cut out will obviuosly be where the framing of the door will go, so that will be supported by the framing of the door correct?
yes, but there's a lateral stiffness that the top plates create to keep the wall from bowing or wobbling/shaking everytime the door is closed or slammed or when the wind blows on it.
What would you recommend I do to create that lateral stiffness?
what's in the area above the door in the gable end framing? I was looking at a model of it this morning and couldn't come up with any great ideas. This is going to be in the vaulted area?
Yes, it's going to be in the vaulted area. If your looking at the garage from the front, the door is going on the right side wall, centered. As far as what's above the area where the door is going in, it's just basic framing. The top plates are at 8' from slab and then 2x4's are cut to follow the pitch up and they sit on top of the top plates.
Build a shelf above the door that runs from the wall one side to the wall on the other. Make it deep and anchor it well at both ends and all the way cross the exterior wall.
Think of a beam laid on it's side. There was a thread on this here at BT in the past. The shelf can also be placed outside the building and double as a small roof to provide some weather protection to the doorway.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I'm not really following what your describing, could you explain it a little more to me please?
Try this visualization.
A house floor has a beam (shelf) upon which the joists are attached( studs in the wall) and the flooring (wall sheathing). Have that picture?
Now rotate it 90 to the left. See how the floor beam becomes the shelf and acts to stiffen the wall?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I must be brain dead on this one, I can't seem to get the visualization your describing. ????
install the 2x inside the wall and nail to the studs to replace the cut top plates. see the attached pic. carry this feature around the room and it looks like it was designed in from the start and not hiding anything of significance.
Bingo!! Thank You! I am in a brain fog, am operating on about 4-5 hours a sleep every nite for the last 2 weeks and can't make sense when I try to answer questions here. Time to just sit back and read .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
you in a brain fog? thought that was me. baby's keeping sleep at a premium but think we're turning a corner now.
Yes, brain fog,.
Best friend was just diagnosed with cancer and I am MIL sitting at night as the old woman has mild dementia and the DW of friend is spending as much time as possible at the hospital. I remember the child induced brain fogs, not as well as their mother does though!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Ouch! Hope you understand if I don't offer to trade places with you.
No problem.
I would much rather be holding new borns.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
OK, I see now, thanks for that attachment. Would that be 2x6 material? How would you secure that to the studs? I guess it would have to be spliced together to span side to side, correct?
Only thing I can think of is to toenail with some struct screws. Use th elongest piece possible as close to centered over the door which'll be the only piece(s) doing work. The rest won't be critical since they're jsut a carry through of the design feature so the joining/splicing won't be critical other than something flat & tight.
I used a 2x6 in the pic but a 2x4(dbl) would be the minimum. 2x6s would give you a nicer shelf er... design feature.
The wider the better, again think of the depth of a floor joist , the strength comes from the depth. Use Simpson tie straps to tie the studs to the beam(shelf), if you can't span the distance so you can extend one piece past the end laps of the other. edit for spelling They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Edited 5/28/2008 10:34 pm by dovetail97128
Yes, I understand what your saying about depth.
Do you think toenailing would be sufficient to support the weight of double 2x6 across 24+ ft.?
How would you go about finishing this beam..er....design....as far as looks?
I wouldn't rely on toe nailing alone. A cleat nailed face nailed or screwed across all the stud faces, metal ties or blocks as discussed earlier would be my preference. Wrap the framing material in finish lumber and treat it as a long plant shelf or display shelf. The actual "stiffener" can also be made up of ply glued and screwed to both sides of a single framing member. Be creative, you can have a real accent feature if you work on it and get creative with things like this.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"metal ties or blocks as discussed earlier would be my preference"
Can you describe how you would use the blocking, size? spacing?
option #2: in lieu of the design feature you could just extend the header as long as possible inside the wall.
How do you secure the individual pieces of header between the studs like in the attachment when the "sides" of each piece (header) is blocked by the next?
that was just a quick idea... the header will be long, much longer than original and you'll have to cut the gable studs to make room for it. See the attached.
Build the header 1st, temp tack the upper & lower 2x to the header, temp support the header & 2x to the wall where it'll fit in. mark the studs and then cut the studs. Remove the temp tacked on 2x's from the header nail them to the studs install the header. Add additional studs at the ends.
edit to add: for length of the header, i'd go 3x the opening width.. 3-0 cut out of plates = 9-0 header for this option
Edited 5/29/2008 10:58 am ET by john7g
Great info, thanks.
I've seen somewhere where it is advised that you add a strip of 3/4" ply under the base of the door to be installed to lift it up so that it doesn't sit directly on the subfloor. Is this the correct way. oir should the door be placed directly on the subfloor?
Haven't heard that there's an advantage to setting the door on the 3/4 but there's a pretty good advantage of flashing the area where the door will sit before install to stop water damage beneath the door. Rot that I've seen on entry doors is of the jambs at the bottom where the end grain whicks up the water from the bottom. Can't remember the name right now but there's a hybrid jamb out that has composite at the bottom 1' of so and wood for the rest. If you use ply be sure to flash over it.
What is the proper way to flash doors/windows? I wasn't able to find any quality info on my searching so far.
There's a bunch of good articles on FHBs (reasonably priced) pay site (click on the Become an Online Member Today). Have you looked there.
Building Sciences has good articles as well. 1 on drain planes and a few flashing details http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-105-understanding-drainage-planes/?topic=/buildingphysics/moisturecontrol/rainpenetrationcontrol/flashing/main_topic
Basically you flash it the same as a window, bottom piece 1st, set the sides next so they overlap, set the door/window and then set the top piece to deflect the water out. You'll jhave to cut & bend these up from a roll of flashing.
Think like a drop of water.
Edited 5/30/2008 8:01 am ET by john7g
Thanks for the links, will check them out.
How do you bend the flashing like that? Can I get sheets of flashing other than the rolls? I find the rolls hard to work with since they always want to roll back up when I unroll them for cutting.
The garage siding is Texture 1-11 nailed to the studs with strips of 1x nailed vertically. When it comes to flashing my openings I guess I need to flash (overlap) directly onto the siding correct? With vinyl or wood shake siding one would remove siding, install flashing, overlap onto sheathing, install door/window, then trim out and replace siding, obviuosly I don't have removable siding, so I guess it's just overlap the flashing onto the T 1-11, install window/door and trim right?
Also wondering how to properly install drip cap considering the situation mentioned above.
Usually don't like to ask to many things at once, sorry.
I've always bent flashing in place or on the decking with 2x4s and hammers. Nothing fancy but effective. Roll flashing is all I've seen and I don't think anyone really enjoys working with it. Have you seen the recent threads on metal breaks? 105238.1101333.1
the t1-11 adds a challenging factor that I haven't had to work with yet. Maybe cut the top cut a little loose to allow the head flashing to roll in and then some caulk? Is there any reason why you can't pull the t1-11? I mean, it's only held on with nails usually and they can be pulled. If the 2x battens are covering the nails that makes all the easier to hide any nail pull-throughs.
The T 1-11 has lattice and ivy attached all around which would make pulling off the sheets "not ideal" if you know what I mean.
"Maybe cut the top cut a little loose to allow the head flashing to roll in and then some caulk? "
What do you mean by cut the top a little loose?
Would it be totally wrong to nail the window flange directly over the siding?
>Would it be totally wrong to nail the window flange directly over the siding?<Not much wronger than that. Find a window that doens't have flanges. Before metal and vinyl, windows had no flanges. But you still end up with a flashing issue.
On the top of the door, if you make your cut on the t1-11 a little wide (loose) you may have enough clearance to work the flashing in by rollig nad pushing. Just a theory though.
ivy & plantings... I understand but does the client want a sound product or nice plantings? An unsound product will never be right and always cause problems whereas plantings can be moved, will regrow and the issue is only temporary. Which is more important?
Edited 6/1/2008 4:20 pm ET by john7g
I would normally never consider installing a window with the flange over the siding, but then again I never installed a window that only had one layer of T1-11 on the studs, so had to ask.
I already have the windows, and they are flanged, so non flanged windows are out of the question.
What do you think about this, I cut the hole for the window from the inside (it's all framed from the inside already). Then once the hole is opened, I cut the opening wider from the outside (about an 1.5" or so) with circ saw (set just enough to cut siding) to make room for the flange to sit on the framing studs, and it will also allow me to pry the siding out a bit and slip flashing between before installing window?????
Trust me I know what you are saying about moving plants vs. proper installation, it's a no brainer, I'm just trying to think if there is another way, other than that, massive amount of batten boards, trellis, ivy......
But if it has to be it has to be......
>cut the opening wider from the outside (about an 1.5" or so) with circ saw (set just enough to cut siding) to make room for the flange to sit on the framing studs, and it will also allow me to pry the siding out a bit and slip flashing between before installing window?????<
That could work, it'll give you room to work the flashing in on all 3 sides as well before setting he window. Going to have to dream up something for filling in the overcut area to cover the window flange.
What is he going to do about the bottom of the window? You can head flash with no problem, but all that does is move the problem to the bottom of the window. There it may be possible to cut the flange off and make a "Z" flash that would start inside the building and end outside and over the siding.
Carps have fought this since single wall T-111 has been around. Caulk and maintenance.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
good point that I missed and good solution. Glad some one's checking this for me. I haven't had to mess with t1-11 so all I have is purely theory.
I will repeat what I said earlier, caulk is what has been used and relied on for years, whether covered with trim or not, window behind the siding or mounted to it. If I was going to go through all the work to flash the bottom of the windows I would just reside the dang the place and do it right to start with with something other than T-111. Oh and one other thing, T-111 has a required primer to be used with it. failure to do so will void the warrenty.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"If I was going to go through all the work to flash the bottom of the windows I would just reside the dang the place and do it right to start with with something other than T-111."
I agree, but I'm not getting paid to do that :)
" Going to have to dream up something for filling in the overcut area to cover the window
The window is going to be trimmed out with 1x4, that will cover the cut.
build a shelf to hide the structural component beneath and call it a design feature.
16" stagger is fine on floors.
gun works great, just keep an eye out for overpenetration. i've got an autofeed screwgun and it's great but it and screws aren't a necessity. gun nails will work great for you for this application.
What kind of autofeed srew gun do you have John? Cost?
the autofeed is an old Quckdrive. Mechanically fussy until you learn the tricks of it and only made worthwhile due to a few finicky clients that were paranoid about squeaky floors. I haven't looked at current pricing on them.
PL & ringshanks from a gun will do just as well.
Thanks for feedback on nailing/screwing the ply and gun info guys. I'm going to go with the Pl and ringshank nails.
I'm not quite sure the best way to approach framing the floor. I have a 26'x26' square garage. Should I actualyy have the joists resting on the slab at the high point (for support maybe?) Or should I clear the slab alltogether. (To answer Darrells post, The slab is "way" bumpy. I wouldn't even think about trying to lay ply over it, that's the reason for floor joists).
Second, what lengths should I use for the joists? Should I run a double 2x6 down the middle and run joists on both sides or should I break it into three sections with less span?
Third, If I set the joists about an inch or so over the highest point to avoid any high spots, how should I go about supporting underneath in such a tight space?
I'm just tossing out ideas here...might be valid...might be crazy...It just seems to me that 2x6 floor joists is a) a lot of work and b) a lot of space.If the floor is uneven, what about pouring leveler on it first, then the XPS, then subfloor? It should give you a much higher r-value than joists + bats and will save you some room.The one catch would be interior walls, but it doesn't sound like they'd be load bearing, so maybe that's a non-issue?
Thanks for input Darrel,
Not into going with leveling material etc... i know it's probably more work going with joists and all, nut that's okay. Height isn't really an issue with the cathedral ceilings.
I'm just trying to figure if the joists should sit on the slab and have to be "scribed' or if I should raise them to ride over the slab (high and low spots) and then how I would shim them up. I guess if I have them sitting on the slab I could just use two 14' nailled together to span across. Just not sure the best way to attack this.
Don't scribe, it's a massive headache.
Divide the floor area into 3 sections divided by 2 girders. 2 sections at 8' spans and the remainder to fill the gap which'll be cut out of a 10'er (probably be around 9'3"). This'll keep you within the span limtis of the 2x6. Yes, span is an issue whether you're 1" off the deck or 100'.
Since the floor is not flat I'd set the girders & rims on shims made from PT scraps, (ply or 2x). Might be easier to rough shim it first and then install all the joists and then come back to get the level/flatness to your desired limits.
Install the hangers to the rims & girders on the bench (or flat on the ground (if there is any flat area)) then set them in place. Rims & girders can be made up from 16' & 10'ers. Shim them under each joist location so you don't have to worry about span issues on the rims & girders (maybe strecth to everyother one if you want).
This'll keep you in normally stocked lengths (ie. lower costs).
see attached.
Thanks John, that's exactly what I was trying to figure out. I wasn't sure if I could break it down the middle or if I would have to do three sections like you mentioned.
Yes I agree, scribing would be a "massive headache", didn't want to do that, I was just unsure if the joists would be better off laying "on" the slab. The way you drew it up is exactly the info I was looking for.
What's the best way to make up the shims. Should I lay a flat piece down and then shims between that and the girders or just thick shims? The highest point is about 1.5" off the slab.
Thick shims would be my choice. Be easy to cut on either the TS or MS.
breaking down the middle would've been great if the floor was flat enough to be supporting the joists along the way, but since you've got to elevate it to clear the undualtions of the slab, you got to follow the span crieteria. I'd check the local yard for SYP 2x6s (or at least something joist quality) and not the hit or miss stuff at the BBs.
What does the "SYP" stand for that you mentioned? (SYP 2x6's)
Southern Yellow (or yella) Pine.
Lot's of the 2x at the BBs I've seen doesn't seem to be good wood for joists. I don't know for sure since I use a local yard (which usually includes a conversation of what I'm doing with it to help better match products to uses) that delivers for free but thought i'd put that in there just in case you were shopping BBs.
Gotcha
I try to stay away from the BB's except for the basics. Local yard used to be free delivery, but now charges a $20 "feul charge" which is totally acceptable to me.
Good info on joists. I would have never thought about that.
John,
I'm going to be heading out of town until around Mem. Day. How do I find this thread when I get back to continue posting on it? I figure it will be "buried" by then. I'm not familiar with the particulars of this site.
2 Ways
click on the posts numbers next to 'Navigate This Discussion' at the bottom of your screen. Get back to your original post (OP). Click onthe post number at the top right of that post and you should then see that number in your address bar, if it is there, save it to Favorites. attached a pic to help.
Or
If you get e-mail notifications just save one of those and click the link in the e-mail message.
And maybe there's one more way...
In this post there's a Options at the bottom left. In that drop down menu there's an option for book mark this page but I think ought to at last do the 1st step above to ensure you're saving the right address.
'til Memorial Day? Tha's 1 helluva vacation (or at least I hope it is)!
"'til Memorial Day? Tha's 1 helluva vacation"
A few days before Memorial day, Not all play unfortunately :)
Thanks for info. I pick this thread back up in about a week and a half. Appreciate all your info so far.
What dovetail said... go for it. sorry I missed that.
I cut from the inside with a recip saw using the RO as the guide. But driving a nail through and snapping lines is quick too.
And good point about walls on curbs like Dovetail pointed out.
About the air flow under the floor, I read a thread about crawl space insulation recently.
The main points seem to be:
1. Insulate the concrete and the foundation walls, not the joists.
2. Provide conditioned air exchange. I am just assuming here, but maybe hole in the floor (like a floor register opening) and then small duct that goes from the crawlspace to outside with small ventilating fan in the middle of the duct. The fan should be boxed for accessibility. The most recent issue of FHB has an article where one builder has a forced air duct system that returns top floor air to the basement. I always thought this may be a good idea and was happy to see somebody else thinks so, as well. I also say to vent this air to outside (in spite of the wasted conditioned air) because of the reasons below:
In the crawl space thread, someone raised a question about returning the crawl space air to the living space. I don't know about this. I don't know what the condition of the crawl space air would be even if the space is well insulated. Can somebody comment on this, especially from experience? If you've insulated the walls and the floor with either foam boards or spray on insulation, and provided the air exchange and have a way to check the air condition, even just by a nose, what is it like?
My biggest worry would be mold, but big enough duct and fan may keep this space dry, and you can make the system closed to the living space. Try the hvac stores for the professionals and see which in-line ventilator? moves enough air, then go one power higher.
Make sure this crawl space will be permanently closed to mice or chipmunk. Under the entry threshold I would line with metal sheets and never assume 2x wood or caulk or insulation will keep these animals out. I might even line the space where sill plates meet the foundation with 12 inch sheet metal and bend the rest up to the studs. If this garage is heated in winter, it would be a magnet to all kinds of animals. Garages usually have a space in the side or back that never gets looked at, so I would think about this now.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Kic,
Thanks for info. I'm a little confused though, as I am not going to have a "crawl space". The floor joists will be grade level and pretty much be an inch or so off the slab just to account for uneven concrete.
Are you saying that I shouldn't insulate between the floor joists?
Sorry about this late reply. No, you should definitely insulate. I think I did not have a total mental picture of your plan. Crawlspace was my assumption. I think somebody already said it in this thread. Use vapor barrier on the floor, make sure the barrier edge is sealed to the wall and use fiberglass insulation. Sorry about that.
Obviously there will be code concerns you'd need to look into. But, that aside, is there really a need for floor joists? What if you throw down a vapor barrier then 3" XPS sheets, tape, then subfloor? Just like a basement? It's save you a lot of wood and framing and 3" in height.
If you need airflow, perhaps the dimpled plastic subfloor product for basements might work as well.