I need some creative juices and have none at the moment. If anyone has an idea on this, shoot it at me.
I have an HO who ran individual conductors (4 in all 6AWG) in conduit to feed a sub in his basement. The conduit runs along the wall surface in the garage and ends nearby the main panel which is in the garage. HO asked me to make the elec panel hookup for him, as it’s out of his league and to find a way to finish the conduit run over to the panel. The main is a flush mount Square D panel. The garage walls are rocked, so I have the dilemma of how, how do I cleanly, and professionally get the wires to go INTO the wall at some point above the panel, and then make them do a sharp 90 down towards the panel inside the wall? It has to look clean.
The HO thought that running liquid tight from the point of the conduit termination to the panel would work. So he bought about 9 feet of it which is pretty much about as much that is needed. But LT doesn’t bend sharp, it bends at a gradual radius and the bend would have to be in the 2×4 wall and there is still the problem of doing a 90 angle onceI poke thru into the wall cavity.
Ideas?
Replies
Pyrotechie,
I may be misreading the situation, but there are pretty neat PVC "L B" ELLS with a removable plate that would make the corner neat and easy. I would bet you could get a size you could glue that "liquid tight" right in to the PVC ELL, then go with rigid PVC on down to the box.
(Sorry, I just remembered you said "flush box" and the "sheetrock is on".) Maybe you need remove some sheetrock AND use the ELL.
Edited 5/3/2005 11:22 pm ET by Fonzie
Yeah I thought similar to as you said. The problem is I need to somehow keep it neat, plus per code L bodies need to be accessable. The L Body would have to be on the inside of the wall so that I could make the 90 turn downwards towards the panel. To me that's a no no?? Or is it ok to bury an L body inside a wall?
Once again I am not an electrician but I believe that if there is not a connection made in the LB ( in other words just used to make the turn) it could be buried, but then you could use a regular 90.
One issue is wire bend radius.
Edited 5/4/2005 12:16 am ET by RASCONC
Once again I am not an electrician but I believe that if there is not a connection made in the LB ( in other words just used to make the turn) it could be buried...
Nope. Article 370-29: "Conduit bodies, junction, pull, and outlet boxes shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade."
I should have used a little different wording. I can see not "burying" as in the last part but I still think that the only downside (and probably why it reads this way) is that it would make for a hard fish or pull if you wanted to add (or replace) a wire or two. Like I said at the end, why not just use a real 90?
Thanks, I stand corrected.
Edited 5/4/2005 8:45 pm ET by RASCONC
The reason he can't use a 90 degree bend in a piece of conduit,flexible or not is because the radius of the bend will put the end of the conduit 4" out from the face of the wall.
That's why they make a 90 degree connector.The back to back distance for a 1" or 1 1/4" connector is probably less than 2".He's been given that advice twice now by electricians who actually do this work.
Could you replace drywall with a plywood access panel? Put it up with screws and paint it to match?
Big Macs - 99 cents
If I'm reading this correctly, you've got a surface-mounted conduit (EMT? PVC?) that you want to disappear into the wall in a neat professional manner above a flush-mounted main breaker box.
I don't get the reference to 'liquid tight,' unless you use that term to describe PVC conduit. Anyway...
Running 4 x 6-ga. I think you need to be in 1" PVC, so you run that into a surface-mounted 4x4x2½" PVC box to make a turn down the wall, in the plane of the wall, and then you run a short piece of conduit from the box down into an LB to make the turn into the wall, 90-degrees to the plane of the first one.
Inside the wall, you snake down to the main panel and pull up from there. I think I'd snake the wire up before I installed that LB into the wall, myself. Probably be a heck of a lot easier to assemble that way. You can splice the new section of wire to the old inside the 4x4 box with water-tight wire nuts.
Clip the conduit to the wall where it's exposed nice and straight, and all is very neat and pro.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
You do not state the size of the conduit or type. Also is the approaching conduit horizontal or vertical?
You do not need a 90º in the wall in either case. A conduit system needs to be designed so that you can [easily] pull wires into it. In any even, you will need to do some drywall surgery. It's rather short-sighted to install the sheetrock before the conduit is connected to the panel.
Assuming in 1" conduit horizontal, I would put a 90º right above the panel and tilt in [called a kick] and use maybe a 10º to go straight down to the panel. You will need an eliptical hole. Don't forget a support is needed within 3' of the panel.
Liquidtite Flexible Metalic Tubing could work, I guess. I've never seen it used in this situation. Since this is a garage wall, it may be best to use a fire-caulk [$10] to seal the gaps because it may be a firewall.
Too late now, but you're not supposed to install the wires until the conduit system is complete.
~Peter
Yeah, too late now. This is where the HO was trying to do it themselves. Then got stuck, so the HO didn't know better. He figured he'd pull the wires in the PVC close to the panel, then scratch his head to figure out how to get it in. When he couldn't come up with something he decided to give up and make me scratch my head on it.
It's rather short-sighted to install the sheetrock before the conduit is connected to the panel.
This is a subpanel for a new finished basement. This is an add on long after the house was built, thus the presence of the rock being already installed.
Dinosaur is leading you in the right direction.
Cut in a 4x4 box size hole in the dw. If it is not to high above the panel box, you will have room to slide a piece f conduit down to the box and secure it with a box connector. If you can't get the conduit in, use the Lt inside the wall, connected to the 4x4 box and the panel top. Next use a 4x4 box extension on top of the flush mounted box in the wall. Run your exposed conduit to the box extension and make the connection.
Done, and professional looking. we have used the stacked box arrangement many times to transition from surface mount to in wall conduit.
One note of caution. You may need to add some sort of blocking in the wall to hold the flush mounted box, and be careful cutting in dw above and existing panel. You don't know where those existing wire are inside the wall!
Dave
Good point, Dave. All the wires happen to be in the stud bay and enter the top of the panel, to cutting the DW carefully is a must indeed as these new sub wires will enter from the top as well. As for getting bracing behind the wall to support the 4x4 box...good point. To do that I'll have to cut a slot as wide as the stud bay to get a support in to hold the box and secure the support to the adjacent studs. So no matter how I look at it there is DW surgery as one poster noted. Still, it'll look fully professional and that the goal.
Rock is cheap. Cut holes, install conduit, patch holes. Leave it to the HO to repaint.
Why can't you set a box above the panel and come out of the back of it with a 90 degree seal tite connector?
If you really want to do it without tearing out the DW, first fish a wire through from you entry hole at the top of the wall to a selected KO in the panel. Ideally enter from the top, but at least try hard to pick a spot there there aren't likely to be other wires and conduits in the path. Some probing may be advised.
Next, assemble your conduit, complete with all elbows (sweeps if possible) and the coupling for the panel. Plan it so that it can be snaked through your entry hole.
Feed the top end of the fish wire through the conduit (you might want to change out the stiff fish wire for flex cable or durable cord). When the fish wire is through, feed the conduit down into the wall. Use the wire to pull it into position.
Never liked the look of a bend coming out of a wall. It isn't an issue in an industrial setting or hidden above a drop ceiling but exposed in a house it screams. Mostly planning and routing of conduits can be employed to avoid this sort of situation by getting runs above ceilings or otherwise concealed. Too late for your situation so on to remediation.
Two methods come to mind that I have used in similar situations:
First is to surface mount a box and then come out of the back with flex or liquid tight 90 degree connector and then on down to the panel. The box has to be removable to allow access to the 90.
Second method is to mount an old work box, appropriately sized for the conductors, in the wall and then to mount a box extension to the front of it. When calculating box size you can include the extension. The conduit comes out the bottom of the box inside the wall.
In both cases the conduit or cable is run into the box, or box extension, at the surface. A blank plate finishes the installation.
For a little better look you can use a weather tight box or box extension.
4LORN...I hear you. I like the second option and it sounds very much like the option that Dino and Dave suggested earlier on. I'm sure this might "irk" some people, but it's one more reason why I DON"T like a flush mount panel. I prefer a surface mount. In this case a surface mount would be no issue. When I install flush panels I always try and talk the client into having an access panel "built in" so to speak on the top or bottom so that future wiring can be easily added if the need arises. Saves time, money and of course a future wall repair.
In this case it's a townhome. They were all built with unfinished basements. Since a large majority of people today are finishing off their basements you'd think that it would be spec'd out (if using a flush panel) to put a conduit junction in the vicinity of the panel so that a sub can be added later or add'l branch circuits. This house is only like 3yrs old, just wish they'd have thought a little more into the future.
Then again, why am I debating it? It got me a job and some cashflow, small job, but hey, cashflow is cashflow.
If you have to flush mount a cb panel and want to plan for some future circuits, add a couple of 1 1/2" conduit stubs from the panel trough the top plate.
I checked with my inspector and he was ok with this for 4 or 5 pulls of romex with out derating , as long as the conduit ("duct") wasn't over 6" in length. I leave a pull string in the empty conduit, and note inside the panel detailing the limited number of wire that can be pulled in. A health chunk of duct seal setting on the top of the stub above the top plate or cover it with duct tape keeps the conduit from being a "fresh air intake."
Dave
It sounds like you might have to mount a junction box about the panel and run the conduit to it. Then remove or chisel out the rock and then off set a conduit into the top of the panel. Then replace or patch the rock. Does not sound like you have much of a choice. That seems to be the quickest way that I can think off. Sorry, I know that is not what you wanted to hear.
Wade