The bottom level of a garage/apt (28wx40lx16h) was just finished using ICF. The framers showed up to do their thing, started to square things up and run sill plates……..
Things came to a screeching halt.
The lead carpenter got a hold of me and informed me that there were a few problems.
Your building was really out of whack, not square, more like a parallelogram. He informed me that one end of the building was 2″ wider than the other end, one end was out of plumb by 1 1/4″ top is tilted out), your garage opening 16’3″ at the bottom – 16′ 1 1/2″ in the middle – 16′ 2″ the list goes on, He also said that there would be some added cost throughout the framing process and that he would have to increase his bid.
It was then suggested that I withhold some of the payment to the foundation/wall builders to compensate for the added labor that it will cost to remedy their poor workmanship and that they did a really unprofessional job, “hack of a job” as some one put it.
I hired one contractor to do the job who is the distributor of the ICF building materials, he gave me a bid and all but his crew was to busy to do the work so he subbed it out to another crew. I’ve only paid a deposit. He know the sub did a horrible job.
Is it alright to hold back some of the cost to compensate for poor workmanship/quality and added labor it will cost to fix these problems?
Replies
I hired one contractor to do the job who is the distributor of the ICF building materials, he gave me a bid and all but his crew was to busy to do the work so he subbed it out to another crew. I've only paid a deposit. He know the sub did a horrible job.
You have talked to him?
And he said what?
Start there and report back
Joe H
Yes but document, document, document, you must look at it like you would wind up in court.
Photos with levels and squares in them, opinion and WRITTEN bids from the framing contractor and maybe another contractor or two. If inspected what does the building inspector say is he going to red flag it for improper foundation. Could tell foundation guy he has only two choices tear it down and start again or pay any addition costs you occur. Luckly grage doors mount inside the builing opening but if one side is leaning in and the other out thats a problem can be overcome but harder then improper width.
An engineers opion may be of use too. SOUND LIKE NOT ENOUGH BRACING DURING THE POUR!
zella...... 28' x 40' and one end is 2" wider than the other.....
not good.... but really not a big deal
and 1 1/4" out of plumb....not good... but again... not a big deal
framing for the door might be tough
typical 16' door ( i hate 16' doors )
should be 16'-3" rough..... 16'-0" finish
depending on how it will be trimmed... might not be a problem
not trying to make light of the bad work... but it sounds like something i could work with
what are they going to dom come back and fix it, with ICF you get what you pour, lust live with it, you will never see it. Hack yes, but nothing you can do,
I agree Mike. Welcome to the world of construction Zella! I once showed up to frame an 8000 sf commercial building and found it 2' out of square. It had about 8 separate entrances with offsets and reverse gables and, well, it was a mess to think about. We did what any framing contractor is required to do: contact the superintendent and inform him of the situation and wait for our instructions. It turned out that the owner of the building had held up the GC becuase he wanted one of his engineer friend/relative to put in the foundation because he "wanted it done right". After a little hand wringing, they asked us if we could frame the building on that foundation as is. We could and we did at no extra cost.I wouldn't want to be the interior finish guys fighting the ceiling grids and tile layouts but the out of squareness didn't really affect us in any significant way. The situation here is much the same. There will be some additional costs associated with shimming and furring and some rooms will be a couple inches smaller as a result. The foundation contractor should bear these additional expenses. Zella, you are at a major crossroads. You can make the next six months of your life hell or you can roll with the punches. I'd roll with the punches. Find out how much the mistake will actually cost, then withold that amount from the foundation guy, unless he can prove to you that he did his job right. You need to let him give his side of the story. Ask him in a non threatening way and you'll probably get more information from him. Don't do this with other trades around. This is a personal matter and your best chance at getting satisfactory results is to eliminate the emotionalism attached to it.Or, pitch a fit. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You need to let him give his side of the story. Ask him in a non threatening way and you'll probably get more information from him. Don't do this with other trades around. This is a personal matter and your best chance at getting satisfactory results is to eliminate the emotionalism attached to it.
Sound advice, that.http://grantlogan.net/
My mother once said to me, "Elwood" -- she always called me Elwood -- "Elwood, in this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." For years I tried smart. I recommend pleasant.
Elwood P. Dowde (James Stewart), "Harvey"
I usually like that sort of a piece and want to hear things out, but this guys work IS his side of the story. It is bad. What else can he say but to make excuses for it?I sup[pose if it is a case where the owner was doing this T&M with them and refused to pay for bracing....but I don't hear that .
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"I sup[pose if it is a case where the owner was doing this T&M with them and refused to pay for bracing....but I don't hear that ."Even then, the sub has the responsibility to insure that his work will be correct when it's done. Instead of prodeeding without adequate bracing, the sub, who is assumed to be a professional, would either have to stop the job and resolve the contractural issues, or supply the bracing at his own expense, then collect for the "extra charge" later. I think your point is that there might be two sides of the story...and I agree with that. I'd love to hear them.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
hell. lets just knock it down and start over on the sub nuckel
U know some guys that do better concrete work, right?;)
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I agree with most here. Welcome to the world of construction. It's not the end of the world, and it's certainly not reason to cause the job to come to a halt.However...The Homeowner should not be looking at paying a single penny more than the original contract.The GC here... Had the contract for the entire job. The GC hired a crew that was not his own, to make the pour. The GC is then responsible for the hack job.And the GC is responsible for doing whatever it takes to make up for the hack job. At no cost to the homeowner.
If you can't say something funny about someone, don't say anything at all...
2 inch in 40 feet, thats less than 1/16 per foot
how about 10-5/8" outta square???
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HUH? Where did you get that figure from?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
just finished redoing a foundation that was 10-5/8" out of square...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
How did you rectify that foundation IMERC? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
added a 2 to 12" taper to the face of each short foundation wall.....
the footers were where they were suppose to be...
cut the framed end walls loose and reset them to square...
the house is now 15" longer than the call size...
moved the interior walls to square....
added a truss and a TJI to each end....
filled in the new empty spaces....
toenailled off all the framing and finished installing the hardware...
most of the framing was done with 8's and 10's.....
the framing that was set to the long walls stayed put...
walls perpendicular to the long side were set parrallel to the short wals... moved or reconstructed them yo square...
the original contractors did a box wrap type form up but set the form's inside to outside and outside to inside on opposing corners for a 10"wall... the two offset corners cantilevered the footers a bit...
the TJI's and subfloor are still set to the original parrellagram and the trusses (set by a different crew) were set square to the long axis except for last one on each end...
glad it wasn't a hip...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
BTW...
the framing matched the foundation...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"some rooms will be a couple inches smaller as a result."or larger...;)
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I can't say I've ever even seen a foundation that was truly square or plumb all the way around. I don't even expect them to be any more. If the framer is worth his salt he'll get that garage on that foundation without much of a hiccup. It might take some creative trim to make it look pretty again, but that's about the only place I'd expect to see any additional cost. If the opening actually needed to be cut I'd pull the gas saw out of the trailer, have at it, and bill for it. Life ain't perfect. Framing certainly ain't either.View Image
I agree with all of you about any good or half way decent framer would have no problem with this foundation. That however begs the question of whether the HO should even pay for any of it. Very #### work , my advice to the HO is offer the GC two options, 1) rip it out and do it right or 2) HO pays only for materials. GC eats the labor involved in this pour.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
At least you are willing to pay the framer for his extra costs. Gene and Joe just want to tell the framer to eat it. Joe seems to want to frame in the garage door smaller or something which might be a viable option. I'd request your sawjob though.My impression is that these ICF walls are the walls of the house, not a basement so all my thought processes are about an ICF wall that a roof needs to go on. I've only worked on one ICF job and it was a slab with ICF walls. We put the roof on it. If it's a basement wall, there really isn't too much to do other than shift the walls in and out as has been suggested. I guess it's a fairly common solution, one that works best with a brick veneer like we've always built on. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Gene and Joe just want to tell the framer to eat it.
Jim,
What in the world are you talking about? I want the framer to eat what???? I said if the framer frames parallel and square, he has no problems. He sticks the foundation in 1" on one end and out 1" on the other end. He doesn't have to mess around with any overhangs. Or he can twist the whole foundation and make it square, but in a way were the one end isn't sticking off 1". It's simple!!
Joe seems to want to frame in the garage door smaller or something which might be a viable option.
Joe seems to want to frame in the garage door smaller or something which might be a viable option. I'd request your sawjob though.
Go back and re-read my first post again. I said to frame it 16'3" the right way and let the mason cut back the foundation. Then I said in my second post if the HO didn't';t want that the framer could frame it to the smaller dimension and the mason would have to fill back in.Joe Carola
I think I got caught up in some of the other responses when I first responded to the OP. I just went back and re-read the original post. It doesn't seem to me that the framer is really being presented as being unreasonable at all. In fact it sounds like he's doing just what he's supposed to do. It doesn't sound like he's making anything sound like an insurmountable feat... just bringing issues to the HO's attention and making her (him?) aware of the fact that there is going to be some additional charges. Seems to be on the up and up to me and can't say I'd have handled it any different.
If, in fact, the framer is just putting a roof on this structure, then you're 100% right. There's really not too many places left to hide the foundation issues. As we both know, you've got to get the kinks chased out of a frame before you start cutting the roof. With no place to chase them... it's gonna show up somewhere. Most likely, as you pointed out, in the soffit lines. Hopefully this thing is gabled and not a hip.
But if the framer is putting walls on top.... and it doesn't sound like it, given that the ICF's sound like they're stacked 18'...... he would have much easier time of hiding it.
You bring up a very good point. A point that I often struggle with. Everyone expects the framer to play the hand he gets dealt for the original bid price and yet is always expected to produce a virtually flawless frame. Regardless of the foundation he's building on. Regardless of the materials he's working with. Regardless of the weather. Regardless of the site conditions. We get my point. And to ask that of the framer, is unfair. I know all too well.
On the last house I completed there was a complicated skeleton of steel in the basement. It was installed by the steel supplier... erected and welded on site...before we even showed up. It wasn't level and it wasn't parallel with much of the foundation (the house was very cut-up). We ended up having to cut some of the steel posts free from the footings to try to force it square. The floor was flush framed to the webbing. We did the best we could with it, but in the end I still had to try to lose 1/2" here and a 1/2" there on consecutive floors to make it 'nice' before we got to the roof. As a result some walls couldn't be squared and sheathed on the deck, runs of joists had to be cut to individual lengths etc. I billed for this extra work..... and am still waiting on a check. Going on four weeks now and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to see it. I'll probably still get a phone call down the road when the tile guy starts complaining about the kitchen not being square.
I shoulda thought a little longer before I made my initial post.View Image
One of the issues that framers rarely think about is how long these mistakes by other actually cost them. The costs to framers are enormous given the fact that they normally are bidding these jobs as if the conditions are ideal. In reality though there is no end to situations that delay the framer and most often, the tiniest delays are magnfied five fold because of the crew.Your situation probably cost you a day at least because of the steel situation. I don't mean just 8 hours, I mean 8 hours for your entire crew. There isn't any way to prove it yet when you turn in a bill for a measley pittance, they act like you are trying to steal the family jewels. The reason for this is because framers are historically behind the eight ball all the time and we just take more #### and let it roll off our backs. We are physically tough individuals and mentally tough too so we tend to mentally minimize the effects that condition affect us we just plod on and get the job done. Their bottom line at the end of the year is severly affected but the actual losses aren't that noticeable. The framers that really understand the deal are framers like Forest, an old framing buddy, that went to work for Pulte. He built the same house week after week. He'd turn out the same house every two weeks. It took perfect conditions for him to perform so consistently but Pulte asked for the best price and promised optimum conditions and they delivered. Every time Forest started a job, the conditions were the same: the foundation was square and level, the grade was finished, the power was in, the trusses were onsite, the lumber was onsite: everything was ready to go without excuse. Contrast that to this discussion where the framer is expected to just push a wall hither and tither. I understand how easy it is to do that, but I also understand that it's faster if the foundation is right and I don't have to make any adjustments. I shouldn't have to measure the dang thing twice! Idon't get paid twice do I?I had an assistant superintendent call me over to a house once after they had walked through studying it with their levels and straightedges and tape measures. He told me that I hadn't cut the packing straps off a window in the upstairs bedroom. We put together a house of 10,000 parts and he didn't find a single thing wrong and he couldn't pull out his pocket knife to cut a tiny strip of thin plastic ....If you detect a bit of bitterness...you're probably right. One bright spot: I'm on the other side of the equation now.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
my post was not to make light of the extra work of the the framer...it was to reassure the OP that the sky isn't falling and that this ICF structure can be saved
here's what i think is being built... based on this
<<<<
The bottom level of a garage/apt (28wx40lx16h) was just finished using ICF. The framers showed up to do their thing, started to square things up and run sill plates........ >>>>
the ICF is the garage.... and it's 16' high
the framer is going to start framing a floor system on top of this for the 2d floor apartment
and ......oh, yeah.... god bless the framers of this worldMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"it sounds like something i could work with"Same here, but it will still take some extra work which costs money. She won't know how much until the framing bill comes in so she should withhold all the payment to the foundation outfit until then, IMO. Sloppy work means there are other hidden surprises yet to be found in the course, and since she is acting as GC sounds like - she wasn't there for the puir and doesn't know if she has voids or other oooops in the wings.
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Mike I agree with you.
it sounds doable even with ICF's (I think he said ICF's and Not SIP's) although that is still doable.. In my humble opinion..
Yes, it absolutely is fine to withhold his whole amt due until you know what the backcharges are going to total
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Your building was really out of whack, not square, more like a parallelogram.
So what, as a framer I have to snap lines anyway and take my tape out and check for parallel and square. No extra times added there.
He informed me that one end of the building was 2" wider than the other end,
So what, pull one end in 1" and the other end out 1" and make the building parallel. No extra time there
one end was out of plumb by 1 1/4" top is tilted out
So what, what does that have to do with the framer? He snaps his lines square and parallel and that's it. If the foundation is sticking past the framing on one end and in on the other end, you have to plaster somewhere and that's the masons job. Has nothing to do with the framer. I make my framing square and that's it. If it's out of plumb, mason has to fix it, not the framer.
your garage opening 16'3" at the bottom - 16' 1 1/2" in the middle - 16' 2" the list goes on,
So what, he frames the opening 16'3" like it's supposed to be and then the mason comes back and cuts the foundation plumb. Not the framers problem. No added cost there either.
He also said that there would be some added cost throughout the framing process and that he would have to increase his bid.
Additional cost for what?. Are you telling him that he's supposed to frame this thing following the foundation and making it out of square and trying to cut everything so that the ridge is level and every rafter has to be cut different?
Ask the framer if he snaps his lines square and parallel if there is any additional charge. Is he charging you extra to square up the foundation???? He's supposed to do this anyway!!
What am I missing here?
The foundation being out of square is not the framers fault and should not cost any extra to square it up. It's not like the foundation is way out of level and up and down like a snake and he has to cut every single stud to make the top plates level.
Edited 12/18/2007 4:34 pm ET by Framer
Joe, I thought it was an icf job. That means the walls are all done and now it's time to put on the roof. He's trying to square up the top plates. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,ICF or not, what does this have to do with the framer unless he's following the out of square and parallel foundation? If the framer is told to follow the foundation, then he has to charge more money to make things work, if not there's no extra work for the framer to square up his sill plates.If they can't fix the garage opening and make it 16'3", what does it have to do with the framer? He can follow the smaller opening and nail his jamb in and then the mason has to come back and fix the gap.Joe Carola
Edited 12/18/2007 4:45 pm ET by Framer
I am totally with you on this one. The framing contractor is blowing smoke at the client here. From the description, this is the foundation of a project, and not an ICF-all-the-way-to-the-roof job.
His line about how the out of whack start will plague him all the way through the frame job shows how much he is full of ####. He should be called out on this one, and you have given a very succinct piece-by-piece response to his whining.
This framing sub would be stricken from the sub list if he tried to pull this on a GC. Sounds as if he is trying to cheat a soft touch.
The problem is that now that he has taken his position on his "extra work" with the owner, he is thus dug in, and probably willing to bully and browbeat his way out of any valid argument the owner now gives. The owner is in a tough position.
"...what does this have to do with the framer...?"It might not cost the framer anything in terms of time or materials and it might cost him a lot of time. I can't answer that until I understand the scope of the work being done by the framer.The ICF walls are 18' high. I'm assuming that a roof and overhang is going to put on there. There might be siding installed on the outside. If the plans call for it to be sided and a 12" overhang installed, will the homeowner accept or want an overhang that varies in width by an inch or more? I wouldn't accept that. If the plans call for siding, does the framer now have to furr out the wall so the siding is paralell with the fascia? That's how I'd insist it be done. Another fellow might not care and would allow you to custom rip the soffit system. But...the soffit system might be beadboard running the long ways? Would you like to look up and see a unit of the bead board tapering off?Sometimes the soffit systems are composed of continuous soffit vents with exact details that might look odd because of the un paralell lines. There are a lot of reasons why the framer might incur extra costs. The interior rooms might be set up with an intricate pattern on the floor or ceiling and require that the interior walls be exactly parallel. I know for sure that I wouldn't accept the interior framing out of square. I've lived in a house like that. I could see every corner in the house wandering off into some obtuse or acute angle. Once the framer drops down into the house, there might be significant design decisions because the room sizes are 2" smaller overall. Sometimes, the designs of the house are tight and a 2" shortage turns into a nightmare. I can say with certainty that when I frame a house where all the measurments are clearly listed, and they work, the job gets done a lot faster. Time is money. This mistake by the ICF person might not cause a single penny of extra charges. It could add as much as fifty hours. We won't know that till we do a little more discovery. One thing that I do know....it already cost the framer some time. He discovered a "major" issue and had to explore the house looking for more. I'd bet that he's wasted at least one hour and maybe more already. When you are supposed to be throwing down the lumber and you have to tell your crew to "hold on, somethings not right", the money starts adding up fast and usually the framer ends up holding the bag. I'm surprised that you are so willing to suggest that this framer isn't due the money that he's entitled to if he encounters extra work to make this job right. How about the ICF guy just come and move the walls over to where they belong? Why do the framers always pay for EVERYONE ELSE MESSUPS AND NO ONE PAYS FOR OURS?Funny, Frank and I just had this conversation yesterday when I asked him if he'd ever left a door jamb out of plumb 1/2". The trimmers would flip their gourd over a 1/2" and the framers should work miracles with a 2" error and not expect anything for their wasted time. I don't understand it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Good detailing Jim.It has become so obvious that you, me and Joe are all getting different ideas of what this scope of work is so i was getting confused and had to go back to re-read the OP."The bottom level of a garage/apt (28wx40lx16h) was just finished using ICF."That tells me the first (bottom) level is ICF, it was just finished, and the framer showed up to start framing the second floor. So he has to set sills on the IF square something like 8' up in the air. Once he does that, he frame happily away, but the ICF walls will not line up with the second storey, so that is where the extra time comes in, making it look right.
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I agree Jim:
The difference between working with a square level foundation and a crooked a** one is night and day.
I had one framer, nickname Yosemite Sam, bitching up a storm on a bad foundation.
From then on, I checked every foundation before the framer showed up so that I could make the foundation guy fix it, or at least give the framer a heads up on what to expect when he got there. I also made myself avail when I knew something was screwy so that we could quickly problem solve and get the crews working.
Fast only works when it is right
Framer, you nailed it (no pun intended).
Framer, you nailed it
And always on my snapped out squared up lines.........;-)Joe Carola
I'd first offer to the contractor to come back and fix it to acceptale standards. That should get him in the game to understand the situation if he is shucking his responsibility.
Is there anything that will be visually unacceptable if he does not fix it? There might e some stuff that he must fix so that it will work for you. Once you have that resolved, then define with the framer what the additional costs will be for whatever is not fixed by the foundation guy and withhold that and a reasonable amount more for unforseens.
If there are delays, does it cost you? If so, you should ask the foundation contractor to reemburse you for any additional carry costs. It is not unreasonable to charge for your extra time, though I would not. My goal would be to get thru it as quickly as possible with satisfactory results.
Good Luck
Once you have that resolved, then define with the framer what the additional costs will be for whatever is not fixed by the foundation guy and withhold that and a reasonable amount more for unforseens.
If the framer frames square, what additional cost does the framer have?Joe Carola
"If the framer frames square, what additional cost does the framer have?"I'll take a stab at that.>>>>He might have to start off a couple hours to make the sills square in the first place, above and beyond what it might be if the base were close to right.>>>>>but far and away more than that - the way I uderstood the opening description here, this is a two story building with the lower level being the ICFs. To me that implies that the sheathing and siding is intended to run on down over the ICF foundation continuous.
That means that he will need to rip a lot of custom shim to glue and screw to the attachments built into the ICFs from the second floor deck to the designated bottom. On a house this size, that could be another day or so for a couple of guys.I don't know, but I think we would need to know the design specs before passing judgment I do get a hint that the framer could be trying to drive a wedge into the owners pocket also, but that is also conjecture. I am not even sure at this point who the GC is. My sense was that the ref to a GC made by the owner was only GC of the foundation. The fact the framer is bringing these concerns and cost aadjustments to the owner tells me that the owner is the real GC, not the foundation contractor.In any rate, the owner should keep control of the money until things are clear in her mind who is responsible for what, and that things are done right.
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He might have to start off a couple hours to make the sills square in the first place, above and beyond what it might be if the base were close to right.
Piffin,
I love you man but I have to disagree with you 1000% on that one. How in the world could it possibly take anyone a couple hours to square up a foundation?? You have to square it up and check every foundation anyway. He already measured the wall being out of parallel 2" on one end, so how long does it take to make a mark 1" in and 1" out? C'mon Piffin, you're reaching way out on this one.
this is a two story building with the lower level being the ICFs. To me that implies that the sheathing and siding is intended to run on down over the ICF foundation continuous.
That's not true. I framed on one and the siding didn't run over the ICF foundation.
The bottom line here and my point is that if the framer can frame it square, what extra's is he talking about? I'm talking framing and sheathing. Garage door opening regardless if he frames it 16'3" or to the smaller opening, it doesn't cost him anything extra.Joe Carola
"That's not true. I framed on one and the siding didn't run over the ICF foundation."How do you know it's not true Joe? You got a copy of the plans?I don't either, but I have done more of these where the siding did run down through than it didn't.So I am making my suppositions based on my experience and you are doing the same based on yours.I ain't gonna argue until I see the plans, photos, or hear some information about this job that tells me. I was just trying to answer your question how it CAN cost the framer more.
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this is a two story building with the lower level being the ICFs. To me that implies that the sheathing and siding is intended to run on down over the ICF foundation continuous.
That is what you said and I was saying that what makes you assume that the siding has to run down over the ICF?
How do you know it's not true Joe? You got a copy of the plans?
I didn't say I have a copy of the plans and wasn't saying it wasn't true on his house. What makes you think that the siding has to run down over the ICF?
No one here has an argument anyway because we don't know what happened yet.Joe Carola
"What makes you think that the siding has to run down over the ICF?"It doesn't HAVE to.But it is just as likely that it does as that is doesn't.
You want ugly? Build on a 16' tall ICF wall with no siding to temper the look.Ya knowwhat?Now that I read the description a fourth time with Mike re-quoting it, I wonder if the OP meant that the both levels were garage down under and apartment on the second level making the total wall height something like 16' with 8' ICF garage and 8' framed wall above....sweet dreams. Give Joey a hug for me - if he lets you up from his latest pin technique wrestling...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
sweet dreams. Give Joey a hug for me - if he lets you up from his latest pin technique wrestling...
I can deal with him and his techniques, It's my wife I have to figure out what to do with. She gets way to nervous with him and causes him to not concentrate when he's wrestling. Yes, I know she's a mom and worries but she makes him nervous. Everyone keeps saying that they can't wait till the day Joey throws me on my back and pins me.........Joe Carola
If the foundation guy cant fix all of the problems, then the framer and perhaps garage door contractor have extra time to get it right.
Time is money so it costs more for the framer.
If it takes 5 minutes to verify the foundation is square it takes 20 to 30 minutes or more to figure out how to adjust an out of square building to hide all the crooked stuff. Then perhaps studs need to be cut to different lengths so more time for the framer, then perhaps interior spaces need to be adjusted so that the baths and kitchens stay square and you hide the sins in the carpet area.
I learned to do foundation checks and make the foundation guy fix the work rather than torture the framer. Foundation guy will try a little harder next time if he knows I am watching.
You get what you inspect, not what you expect.
If the foundation guy cant fix all of the problems, then the framer and perhaps garage door contractor have extra time to get it right.
Time is money so it costs more for the framer.
I'm the framer and I'm told to snap my lines square and parallel on an out of square foundation and a foundation that is not parallel, what extra time is involved? You have to take your tape out and find out if the foundation is square no matter what. Once you find out that it's not you just move your marks in or out. How much extra time can it possible take you guys??
If it takes 5 minutes to verify the foundation is square
What do you mean, "if it takes 5 minutes"? You have to take the 5 minutes anyway, don't you? Or do you just come in there and just snap lines and follow the foundation without checking? I'm still not following the extra time to do something you have to take 5 minutes to do anyway, unless you don't square your foundations and just trust them. I would never do that in a million years. What good framer would go in there and just snap lines on a foundation without checking it for square first.
Right away he found out that is was 2" difference with the parallel measurement.. It takes half a second to say that one side has to come in 1" and the other side has to go out 1" or check the side walls for square. Now you snap the front and back walls parallel and check the two sides for square. How much time does that take whether you're using a diagonal to diagonal measurement or ad multiple of 3-4-5 measurement, or a construction master.
If the HO or Builder doesn't want the foundation in and out 1" and the framer has to make things out of square, then there's more framing involved, but I'm not talking about that.
If it takes 5 minutes to verify the foundation is square it takes 20 to 30 minutes or more to figure out how to adjust an out of square building to hide all the crooked stuff.
If it takes you that long in extra time to figure out how to square a foundation, then charge the guy for your 20-30 minutes extra. I still can't understand how it takes that long to adjust a line for square. Use a construction master before you even make the first mark and you'll know what the square should be from the start.
I'll say it again, why is it costing the framer extra time if he squares the foundation anyway and is told to snap his lines square. This is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about following the foundation and adding more time for framing.
Joe Carola
Edited 12/19/2007 10:35 am ET by Framer
In this situation it will take substantially more time to figure out what has gone wrong. One of the biggest mistakes a frame can do is to proceed with their frame without fully understanding all the ramifications that an adjustment will make. Two inches might not make any difference at all, but it might make hours and hours and hours of difference. Every situation is different. In this case, decisions have to be carefully weighed to determine the best course of action. For instance, it might be wiser to shave off the 1" bulge in the ICF foam and live with a coldspot. There are a lot of factors not known. If they furor everything out, will it cause a problem of overhanging and water intrusion at the base? I understand your point about simply moving a wall line a couple inches and have done that on thousands of walls. I knew that it didn't affect anything though after about ten seconds of pondering. I have had situations though that immediately sent up a warning flag and much more serious ramifications were apparent. A rush to judgment there could be disastrous. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I am still with you on this one, and have some direct hands-on experience with such a foundation, and one even a degree more complex because, a.) it was an ell and not just a rectangle, and b.) one wall needed to be stickframed up to the ICF top between two badly out-of-position ICF endwalls.
In this case we had no one to blame but ourselves, having built the ICF foundation (our first). The out-of-square and out-of-plumb numbers exceeded the busts this OP is speaking of by a factor of two. Bad layout and bad bracing made the foundation job a terrible one.
Armed with a PLS5x X-Y-Z laser, ladders, chalklines, paper and pencil, two 100-foot tapes, two of us resolved how we would proceed within an hour and a half of measuring, remeasuring, deciding which walls we would try to closely track, and which ones would get the hang-in or hang-out, and most of all, how the basic plan dimensions had to change to get a new squared set of lines for building.
It caused a re-do of the truss layout, one new drawing emailed as a .pdf to the truss plant, and a new detail for the water table board that separated the stucco-finished ICF from the wood-framed clapboarded finish above.
Had the foundation been reasonably on, dimensionally and square, the layout and line snapping would have been done in less than 20 minutes. Our extra time was spent scratching our heads and deciding where to add or subtract run dimensions, then resnapping some lines.
As for extra time in framing, above all this? None.
As for the extra time in framing between bad ICF at the walkout wall? Very similar to the wobbly garage door opening thing. Maybe 5 minutes for a skewed or scribed rip in stock at each end.
What in the world is the big deal here? Framers encounter foundation busts at more or less severity at the beginning of every job.
Don't they?
Gene, congrats on being able to react so swiftly and solve the problems and provide the solutions in such a timely manner. I've been on framing jobs where I couldn't get superintendent out there in less than five or six hours which effectively shuts down the job. Your situation didn't address the possibility of having to furr out a very substantial portion of the exterior and interior framing. I think perhaps you might only have been dealing with faulty foundation work. This is faulty main wall work that will require substantially more time than 20 minutes.Like Joe said, it normally doesn't take any more than minute or two to make field adjustment but I've also been involved in situations like this that take considerably more time. Every situation is different with different needs and solutions. What type of exterior finish was applied in your case? Was there any furring needed on the interior? Were you able to adjust everything so it was square and parallel or did you compromise those attributes? Did you pay your carpenter the $108 dollars for the delay? I came up with that figure by multiplying 5 men by 20 minutes and used a $65 per hour basis. For me, a 20 minute delay is significant because $108 means a lot. When you multiply that figure 50 or 100 (or more) times per year, it adds up to 5 or 10k, which might represent 50% or more of a framers profit....if he actually makes a profit (few do). The reality is that many of the delays on job sites involve a lot more time than your situation and most of the lost time is hidden and not really understood by the framers themselves. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, I re-read the followup post done by the OP in which he/she speaks of the furring, etc., that will be necessary to "make the siding look right."
I missed that before.
I agree there will be some extra carpentry here to turn this sow's ear into something resembling a silk purse.
In our case, we had a stucco finish on the ICF, a big and bulky water table board at mudsill/rimboard height above the ICF, and very rough and rustic waney edge pine claps above that. All that was necessary on the outside to beautify things was to bulk up the water table, and fur it a little along one wall.
One wall has enough runout that wood furring was required along an ICF bedroom wall, going from zero to 2.5 inches of boost. Without doing that, a tile or wood floor job would make the bust show badly. But lo! An executive decision was made to do the floor in stained concrete, and no furring was done. Without a lineal pattern to the floor or ceiling, the runout in the wall is really not seen.
In our case there was no framing sub. No one to "hold up" but us.
End of that story.
But let's get back to this masterpiece. Let's begin with the decision to build the lower level in ICF. Let's question that decision, by asking, what in the world is gained, economically, by building with a system that costs so much. If you have done any ICF cost studies, you know it ain't cheap.
Since the lower level space is just garage/shop/storage, why wasn't it built more simply, just getting the ICF work in to get above grade, then to top it with an easy-to-build stickframe thing?
For a high-R wall assembly, a "super-Mooney" arrangement, 2x6 on 24 centers, furred on the inside with horizontal 2x2s, then bagged and shot with Dens-Pac cellulose, would certainly have done for Zella what she is getting with her ICFs, and for far less cost and hassle.
Gene, I like working with folks like you who are willing to make executive decisions quickly. The kwirky builders insist on perfection and stubbornly refuse to go with the flow, then beef about the extra charges. Good on you for being flexible. I'd have a problem contracting something 16' high myself with ICFs but they say it can be done...this threads tells me that you better have a well experienced quality crew. The costs for the walls might be secondary to their desire to build something concrete. I don't know, maybe the op will explain. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"I'd have a problem contracting something 16' high myself with ICFs but they say it can be done...this threads tells me that you better have a well experienced quality crew."I saw one house going up here, just from a distance.But I notice that they put up the first floor IFC's and poured that. Then put up the 2nd floor ICF's and poured that..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
That's how I saw the two story ICF's. They pour the first floor walls and extend the rods up. They put the deck on, then stack the second floor walls and brace them down to the wood deck.That system appeals to me. We may go for it on one of our flips. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hey, if you can work with a crooked foundation just as easily as you can work with a square one, then good for you.
I cant and dont expect the framers I hire to either. I think it is unreasonable to tell any contractor to make shinola out of someone elses ****. That has gone on for the last 15+ years in our industry and I dont buy into it.
If you really time yourself when you have something out of square vs. verifying it is square, and starting to build, I believe you will find that it will take a lot more time when it is out of square.
i am not telling you to listen to me, I am just sharing my experiences.
so...... jeff (? )....
here u r...
new contract house going up... digger dug a good hole...
foundation guy you used for years, pours.... you're doing due diligence..
they strip... digger backfills..
and lo & behold... foundation is 1" out of level
and 2" out of square....
now what ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
dig it out and start all over ;)
Build on it. Leave it for the following crews to make look good. ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Good Morning Mike:
Well, if I did my job right, I was up on the wall after they stripped the foundation and did my foundation check and found it prior to backfill. If it was this week, since I threw my back out, I would not do it till after backfill but that is another story.
Poured foundation 2" out of square is expensive for the foundation guy to fix.
I would tell him that I am calling the framer and any extra costs the framer has is coming out of his pocket. I would then give the framer a heads up and tell him what he is dealing with. Because I gave the framer the heads up, he will likely eat the extra layout time cause he knows what he is getting into. If he does charge me it will be minimal. (Probably $150-$300 I would estimate from my experiences)
Re. 1" out of level, I would make the foundation guy fix it. Last time it happened to me was about 16 years ago in Wilmington, DE. For some reason the foundation guy decided to send his foreman out there with a chop saw and I watched him shave the top of the foundation off. It took him most of the day and neither he or I will ever forget it. After that, framers loved working behind that foreman because he checked his walls pre-pour from there on out and they were tight. If it happened today, I would suggest they look into non-shrink grout and float the top level with non-shrink grout. (I'd make sure the product is approved for the application but am guessing it would work AOK.
good answer...
a heads up to the framer for the out of square is a common courtesy
the 1".... hmmmmm
i'd shoot all of the bolts and find out where the problem exists.. then decide if i was going to call the foundation guy....
fix it myself....
or have it shimmed...
the grout ?... i don't know.... are we really gaining anything there ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
its really hard to understand how anybody can pour a foundation out of square and unlevel.. It doent take much to check it while forming. I guess some people dont know what batter boards are, and dont used them. the simple string line will save your life.
it is hard to understand... yet it happens all the time
to the point that i find it remarkable when my foundations are square & level... one of the reasons i use Fall River Forms.... hasn't disappointed me yet
as for the rest ...i think it must be the "good enough" mentality
it also has to do with the nature of the beast...
working in a dirt excavation.... setting batter boards ( what are they ?
how many jobs you see them on ?)
you have to plan locations for the batters so they will not be in the way of the excavator
then he has to make sure his spoils are not going to block the batters
then the form guys show up .. and they're still forming as the concrete trucks are lining up
if the concrete sub doesn't maintain control.. the result is outtasquareouttalevel....
the atmosphere has to come from the GC..... site prep... excavation.... forms & pour.....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,I frame on top of block.I don't frame over any poured foundations, but either way they should be square. When they're not, it's clearly obvious the masons don't check and are a bunch of morons for not doing so.Joe Carola
Joe, in theory it is get a poured concrete basement wall perfectly plumb and square. In reality though, the cost associated with that far outweighs the benefits. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
Are you saying that most poured foundations are out of square, plumb and in and out?
When I framed in Cape Cod way back when we always framed on poured foundations. I can't remember how good they were though.I do remember one foundation on a garage was 4" out of parallel in the front. We framed on top and the mason came back with his concrete saw and went to town and made a lot of dust.Joe Carola
i'd say that most are...
unless the GC makes it his business to insist that everyone work towards the goal of square & level
but the average tract house ?....... no
there again.. depending on the PM or the company SOP....
a lot of GC's are gC's... they don't care , so why should the subsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i'd say that most are...
Mike,
So that means you guys are used to squaring up your out of square foundations and snapping the lines in the right spot without any problems and wasting to much time scratching your head..................;-)Joe Carola
well........... yes...
but for the last couple years... i only use Joe... always level... always square
but my early training tells me that 2" outta square is not a big deal.. and 1" outta level ain't either...
basically... i lay it at the GC's feet....
"you don't ask , you don't get"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
but for the last couple years... i only use Joe... always level... always square
What a great name.......Joe Carola
I'm saying that out in the rural areas, the basement wall guys know that the top of their basements will be exposed forever. Many of them have decorative forms that emulate brick. They are a lot more careful about the final pour because they know their concrete is a finished product. Others build their basements with block and they are usually perfect. In the city in the large subdivisions, all the foundations are hidden behind a brick veneer. The foundations could easily be out of square as much as 2" without causing any fundamental problems about getting the frame squared up. Most of the poured wall carpenters can do much better than 2" out of square though. Most foundations are 1/4 to 3/4" out of "perfect". They are level for the most part but occasionally, in cold weather, they tend to wander a bit about level. I think the carpenters are probably less diligent about getting the concrete level when wind is blowing snow in their face at 10 degrees. The fundamental reason that these foundation end up out of square is because of the technique that they use to square them. They work from their footings (duh!). They snap square lines on their footings, then swing in their large forms and set them. They tie together a corner and plumb it up with a level. Their forms are not machined pieces so a level might be laid up against a bulge, giving a false reading. In general, during the last few decades, the foundations have been well within tolerance levels. It means nothing to me to have to push a sill plate off the corner 1/2". It's all hidden in the 3/4" airspace of the brick ledge. Basically, there will be a 1 1/4" airspace for the first 18" of the concrete basement wall, then it narrows down to the 3/4" airspace dictated by our framing and brick-rack. In essence, there is no cause for alarm. All is well in MI basement-land. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I have been screwed big time by foundation contractors when they are required to pour brickledges.
Pulling their measurements from the brickledge instead of the outside of the foundation. Not a big deal until you get into cut up houses.
But in my case the front porch was centered on the front of the house, after they measured wrong a few times they were a foot off. With windows and dormers stacked up on top of each other from the first floor to the roof this F-ed up alot in a hurry.
I have dealt with issues like the OP stated, one house was 3-1/2" out of square, it took me a little more time to fix it, but I'd rather fix it right as soon as it's found rather than chase it to the roof. Thats when it starts to cost real money, chasing something floor after floor.
I stopped bidding like everyday was going to be at 100% production, now I look at it as about 75%. Delays and mistakes take away from production and they happen so I learned to account for those as best as I can. And when an issue comes up I could care less I already figured a few into my bid, so I can fix it like I want.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
Edited 12/21/2007 6:51 am ET by MattSwanger
It's not the brick ledges that screw things up, it's the cut up nature of the designs. I first started seeing these extremely cut up designs in 1987-88. At first, I struggled with my squaring because I was using techniques that were more appropriate with simpler rectangles. Obviously the foundation guys were struggling too but they had an advantage because they could snap line for checking on their footings. As we began to see these designs on a regular basis, fewer were screwed up like you've described. I have seen a entire basement walls moved because of setback issues though. A lot of the mistakes I've encountered were because the plans were dimensioned in non-uniform ways. I think we all face challenges regarding foundation and the realitys of needing a square frame. Some are much worse than others but I think it's a necessary evil for framers to learn to roll with punches. Perfect foundations are a worthy goal but in many cases, everything about them is hidden and it really doesn't matter. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It is the cut up designs giving them fits, all shapes and sizes stacked on top of each other. Like stringers compound error adds up fast if not addressed.
Another spot they get a little screwy is daylight and walk out basements. Thats another story though. Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
Yes. Some of our worst situations have been on the walkouts and daylights. They pose certain challenges for both the foundation contractors and framers alike. Our system of dealing with the walkouts and daylights evolved and changed 180 degrees from when I first started. I used to build these wall first, working from the bottom up. In later years, we'd build the rest of the deck first and then align the walkout with the deck. We'd work from the top down. That solved ALL of the problems before they had a chance to take on a life of them selves. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, could you tell me how mudsill/slab gap was grouted? Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
We didn't do the grouting. The builder was going to handle that himself. He was going to use some grout that he had experience with that came in cauld tubes. From our point of view, it didn't need any grout at all. Grout would be a substitute for the steel shims. He could have filled the voids with expanding foam or some form of caulk or even a mortar mix. I'll ask him the name the next time I see him. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'd appreciate knowing how that works. We use a foam sill sealer that gets compressed under the bottom plate... energy star and all that.Steel shims have never been seen in these parts... are they wedged? different thicknesses? Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I was surprised to find out that steel shims were rare here too Holly. One place told me that they would cut all I want at $35 per hour plus materials. Another offered them at .70 each. I thought that was humorous. Back home, we always got a stack of them with every beam delivery. We also got a stack of them with every stanchion delivery. They were so common that we'd normally just leave the extra 5 or 10#'s laying around and they'd get bulldozed over or tossed in the dumpster. Frank will bring a couple hundred pounds back from MI when he gets back from the holiday. I'll get the dang things UPSed if I have to. They are a darn handy thing to have around.Oh yeah....they do come in varying thicknesses and most are relatively small; about 3" x 4". Some are 1/8" and I've seen them as thick at 1/2". Those are rare. The most common thickness is 3/16". When Frank started with me, one of the lessons he remembers was me telling him "you can tell who the real carpenters are because they ALWAYS have a small supply of steel shims in their truck". I've lived by that creed. Regarding your foam: The foam takes up the small voids that would allow air to pass through. If you used the expanding grout, you would be able to eliminate the foam because there wouldn't be any space for air to pass through. If you shim every stud, the grout would be overkill. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
We used to snap the foundation ties off after the forms were stripped on basements here.
A nearly endless supply of 1/8" shims that are 2"x2". And at the price of free we never argued. Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
I was surprised to find out that steel shims were rare here too
I haven't framed in a few years, so I haven't bought any lately, but the local lumber yards used to carry them. http://grantlogan.net/
My mother once said to me, "Elwood" -- she always called me Elwood -- "Elwood, in this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." For years I tried smart. I recommend pleasant.
Elwood P. Dowde (James Stewart), "Harvey"
Thanks for that tip. I didn't check any of them! I like the snap tie idea from Matt too but they don't do basements here and I've never seen anyone with a set of forms. They all rebuild every set of slab forms here which I think is an insane waste of time and money. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
We just finished a job here in TX that had a slab out of level by 1". It also had wavy edges. The anchor bolts were useless....some of them were sticking out 8", some flopping in the breeze, some within 1/2" of the edge. We just sawzalled them all off.The 1" dip and waviness also had to be dealt with. We just proceeded like normal and built our walls straight and square and of course, sheathed them before standing them. This procedure makes the task of getting the top plates true very easy and accurate. It does expose all the gaps at the bottom though.After standing the walls, we then started the process of leveling them. Starting at the worst corner, we drove a wood wedge till the wall was plumb. A quick check verified that the top is level (duh!). This is not a complicated process. We've done this for decades on all of our attached garage walls which often are slightly out of level. After shimming the corner, we simply shims the voids that appear everywhere else. Our standard procedure is to pound a few steel shims under every stud and bearing location. It's actually a very quick process and structurally, it's as strong as any fix available. The voids between the shims can be filled with insulation or grout. On this application, the builder chose to fill it with grout.In MI, most of our basements were poured with a brickledge and many had a layer of block laid on top to provide extra depth, beyond what a standard set of forms could pour. The block jobs often were level, but the masons didn't have the skillset to square up these foundations, nor did the builders care. They knew that the framers would square it up, using the simple solutions that Framer has already mentioned. The brickledge feature meant that brick would be coming up from grade to somewhere up on the house. That meant that there was an airspace available to hang the framing off the wall without any concern for aesthetics. This is a key consideration when starting out a frame. Heres my point. In MI, the outlying rural areas didn't cover their foundations with brick because of the expense. This meant that the foundation contractors had a higher responsibility to get those corner s perfect. As a result, the rural foundation contractors used different systems to accomplish their goals and could be relied on to supply a more accurate foundation. The contractors building in the city subs understood that they had more flexibility and delivered exactly what they needed to: a foundation that was close enough for the framer to install their frame square and level. Summed up: if you were out in the rural areas, the corners of the foundation would be almost perfect every time. In the city, they would be within 1/2" or so and usually very flat and level. In both cases, they were "perfect" for my purposes. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Your replacement for the anchor bolts was?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
anchor bolts. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm with you. Measure twice and pour or lay once.
We are not building the space shuttle here, but we gotta take pride in what we do.
You've misunderstood Joe.He clearly has stated that his solution to a foundation being out of square is to align the sill plate square and ignore the concrete. And he is right. It is that simple and normally it's a thirty second fix. He also stated that if the builder told him to leave the sill plate out of square that it would take more time and money. You guys agree! And I agree with both of you. This case however was a lot more than a foundation. Joe and I have been talking about two different situations and it took a few posts to understand that.As a rookie, I built my first house on an unsquare foundation. My mentor helped me layout the sill plates and convinced me that I wouldn't like to see the house hanging off the foundation along the drive. Big mistake. I hated looking at the entire house out of square that 1 1/4" more than I would have hated seeing the wall hanging off the foundation a little bit. I learned my lesson the hard way. To this day, I don't understand why my mentor advised me like that. He was an anal son of a gun and I never remember him building any deck out of square. I have puzzled over his decision a thousand times. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I understand Jim.
If you find your own square, it is pretty easy. It will take a few minutes longer but is not real challenging. I remember before I did foundation checks having to meet up with the framer to decide which walls were going to hang over the foundation and where we were going to put Z flashing. He probably lost 20 minutes or so for his 5 man crew. He was a smart framer. He bitched enough so that I always did foundation checks after that.
Hey, if you can work with a crooked foundation just as easily as you can work with a square one, then good for you.
Jeff,
Anyone can. Don't know why your framers can't. Are they incapable of squaring up a foundation and making the correct marks? Do you have to hold their hands? You making it more than what it is.
I cant and dont expect the framers I hire to either.
I guess your framers don't have to because by the time they get there you have already been there to square up and check your foundation to make sure it's perfect right? You have already ripped down a foundation that might have been 3/4" out of square, right? You don't wait till your framers get there to do this, right?
So, if for some strange reason you didn't fix an out of sqaure foundation BEFORE the framers got there and the foundation was out of square 1", would you shut the whole job down and tell the framers to go home and find another job,(wishful thinking) or would you and the framers square it up and deal with it?Joe Carola
Joe:
The framers around here are pretty darn good. (Many of them anyway)
Some are not.
No, I dont hold their hands, but I also define the scope for all the trades and make sure everyone is responsible to do their job right so that I dont have to hold their hands.
Many builders say they are babysitters. I am done babysitting and wont work with trades that require it.
Jee whiz, thanks for all the input. I've come to enjoy Breaktime, even when I don't have question to post.
I have attached a sketch of the building after a couple of the framers measured things up and shot some heights using a lazer. The sketch should answer any questions about what is going on. The only thing I will add is that the ICF(16') walls were done in two pours. The bottom 8' are pretty square and plumb, the upper 8' is where thing get out of whack.
I am just a home owner with minimal building experience but I do work involved in fabricating theamed enviroments and signs using computers, CNC routers and printers. That said, I do understand the process of construction and farication of things that need to meet certian criteria. Because I do not have a lot of building experiece I elected to pay someone to build me a shop with an office on top. I asked for bids for the different phases and went from there. I didn't expect everything to be right on, I just expected a better job done. That is what I was paying for, competent people that are good at their trade. Seems to me that this was a bit far out to be acceptable and pay some one top dollar no less.
I inatially recieved a bid from the ICF guy, but his crew was to busy and he lined up someone else for the work. I have talked to the ICF guy and he is really apologetic about the poor work the subs did and has asked me what I feel would be an appropriate way handle this. When the subs did the walls I was around a bit and helped out with a bit of labor, picking up trash, going to the dump, unloading forms, moving scaffolding.... I even took them out for lunch and beer when they finished up. They were nice guys, they just did a really poor job.. I like the comment from someone about there are two side to every story and then the reply that the work done was the other side of the story.
The framing, siding, and finish crew I hired are really good friends and woud never take advantage of me or anyone else for that matter. He simply told me there would be some extra labor involved to make things look right. He didn't say "like you are totally hosed and just tear everything down and start over", he said we can work with what we have and everything will come out all right. He said we'll frame the top level square but it will just take a bit of extra work getting the bottom to match up.
After a bit of measureing he came to the conclusion that the north and west walls were fairly plum and square so he decided to use theso two walls to work off of. The south and east walls are not square or plumb and have a fair bit of a bow to them. He also noticed the south west corner had a rather large buldge to it, 1" plus. He said it would take some time to shim/fir out the siding so it matched (was plumb) with the upper level, and also the buldge on the s/w corner would take a bit of time shaving the foam down. Also decided it was best to push the east wall sill plate out 2" instead of splitting the 2" between the west and east walls, he said if you pushed the west wall out it would force you to re-run a square line for the north wall, which would require some firing work there. Better to just have to match two walls and not four. So by pushing the sill plate out on the east walll 2" a 2 x 6 plate would miss a bunch of the anchor bolts, then the sill plate had to be bumped up to a 2 x 8. The floor joist will hang inside the ICF walls, so the bottom plates of the upper walls will sit directly on the ICF walls. The walls are 2 x 6, which will sit on a 2 x 8 sill plate on the east wall. Either 2 x 8 studs will have to be used or the interior walls will have to be firred out , so I will not end up with 1" ledge at the bottom. Seems like these thing add up after a while.
Then the garage door, a bit worse than I originally thought. It is 16' 3' at the bottom, 7' up it is 16' and at the top it is 16' 2". The inside faces are also not sqaure to the inside and outside wall faces, theres some more extra work. This wall also curves out 1" in the top 7', this adds more work...
Well, thanks for the help and suggestions. I'm not one to hang on to things and will just go with it because I know everything will work out in the end. I am just having a hard time paying some one a lot of money for some really poor work. I once carved a rather large mantel piece that was 11" to long for the rock work it was to sit upon. When I showed up to install it the GC said "woah that's not right". I said "um your right, can't we cut a bit off or each end to make it fit?" He said "no, you're going to have to make another one that is 11" shorter". I now have a really nice mantel in my office, that's called "wall art".
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That is clear as a bell - almost. Thanks.Looks like you are in fine hands there. He has ID ed the problems clearly and has a plan to deal with them instead of letting them cascade and deliver themselves to you one on top of another. Just find a method for tracking the costs you run into caused by the this hack attack.To clarify - this ICF will be covered with siding top to bottom, right?
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One more Q if you don't mind?That detail for hanging the floor inside the forms flush to the top of them - that leaves several inches between floor framing and the wall, right? How are you spanning that and preventing problems when the floor framing shrinks, and what kind of hangers are you using? It seems like a bad detail to me.Or is the top of the wall formed with a pocket all along it?
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You confirmed what my suspicions were. That is a freakin nightmare. Instead of getting in and getting out and making a few pennies, the framer now will be set back in his schedule as well as losing real dollars because he won't be able to truly calculate his losses on this deal unless the entire job was bid as a time and material job. Blend-o-rama is a profit killer to framing crews.I'm glad I'm not there working on that one. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Ah...I misunderstood.I thought there was a gc involved in all this. I didn't realize that you were acting as the GC.Well in that light...The sub you hired... Hired somebody else instead of doing it himself. The sub you hired should eat the consequences of his actions. You should not be paying for extras caused by the sub's sub's quality of work. The sub should be paying for those extras. They were HIS sub's work. The work that HIS sub delivered, is the cause of all the extra charges. In other words, you should be back billing your sub, and he should subsequently be back-billing the company that HE hired.
A man, convinced against his will...
Is of his own opinion, still.
~Anne McCaffrey
why not make the suppler stand behind his work, knock it down and redo it
Situations such as this can get very ugly very quickly. I cannot stress enough to communicate, communicate, communicate! Document each call and note sent to your GC. If you send him emails, create a folder or print each one.
The key is to get to the understanding of what is wrong and how it will be remedied. No legitimate builder with a reputation at stake would leave a job poorly completed. Allow yours the opportunity to correct his sub's errors - but don't let him off of the hook. If you can keep the discussions calm and rational I am certain this will work out. There are standards to build by, and consequences if we don't. Communicate your displeasure, allow your builder to correct the problem, but document all the way.
By the way - I do think it is okay to withhold payment for unsatisfactory work only if you have clearly communicated your displeasure and explained that the work is unacceptable. Do not do it to be spiteful and not communicate the underlying issue but to maintain an upper hand in negotiations.
Mike