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Just had hardwood floor installed-#1 common white oak. I’m disappointed in the number of shorts used in floor and the process of staggering pieces. Too many 1′ pieces used in concentraded areas and too much stairstepping. Of course installer said “I’ve done it like that before” From the number of floors I’ve had installed over the years I know that’s not the proper installation. My question is-What is the mix of lengths or average length in a 25 sq ft bundle and what is the industry standard for layout? This is about 2000 sq ft that I’m considering he might have to take it all out. Thanks for your help!
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I've only done one (my own) but it seemed obvious that you've got to disperse seams and short pieces and do it in a random-looking way to avoid visual patterns. The installer sounds like a hack. In the Bruce flooring I used, I was pleased by the variety of sizes - I had feared getting lots of short pieces. But there were about equal numbers of 18, 24, 54, and 72" pieces. About 50% more of 36, 42, and 48" ones. Really had 12" pieces? I can imagine using a few near the edges, but they'd mostly be useless, IMHO. I'd be upset at more a couple of 3-gap stairsteps in 2000 sq ft and would insist on any 4-gap stairsteps being fixed. Not that I RTFB when I installed mine, but I just pulled out the Bruce instructions. And I quote, "Be attentive to staggering the ends of boards. . . to avoid clustering end joints" and they show 3-gap stairsteps in their illustration of "incorrect alignment". Get the installation instruction for the flooring that was used. Seems like you can at least insist that the guy follow the instructions even if he's not (obviously) an artist. -David
*Rob, two problems manifest in your post. First, is the grade of flooring, #1 Common, which will include all the shorts, where a Select and Better would have few 18s, many 42-48s, and several 72+ inchers. We completed a red oak floor today, using a Select and Better grade of 2 1/4" strip flooring, with lengths to seven feet included.Second, your installer either didn't anticipate the problems, or was inexperienced in utilizing that grade/size of flooring. Shorts can be culled into closets, or end pieces where they're less noticable. If the cull rate is excessive, above 5%, you would have been better off with a higher grade of flooring. I estimate a 5% cut/cull waste in each job using #1 or better grade material. This last job had a cut/cull combined waste of 3 percent. This coupled with a faster rate of application, (due to less cutting in) reduced the 10% premium cost of the Select material to perhaps 5% in my estimation.
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New To this Forum:
Great reply George! But what happens when we run into those folks that don't like all those "shorts" in the closets or under the subzero etc? It hasn't happened much but...once is probably enough.
Unfortunately I have run into too much cabin grade prefinished material(not the salesman here) that have a slew of shorts. It gets so frustrating and when there are no places to "cull" as you describe or just plain mineral streaked garbage, the jobs always come up short. And some salespeople can't get it thru their heads! They lose out...I lose out after having to back and finish the job when another load of garbage comes in.
Thanks for your input!
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Rob.
Joseph Fusco
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*The 2 1/4 Select White Oak I just bought in 19.5 sq.ft. bundles was well distributed in lengths but did include a number of 8" - 14" in each bundle. It's a 5 bundle room with about 2 bundles under cabinets and appliances (with the pattern of door openings and appliance spaces I decided to just do the whole room in oak rather than break patterns and piece in plywood under the cabinets). I was able use most of the short to mid lengths under the cabinets and appliances and save longs for the center, visible area.The label said clearly on its face (not on the back with the small print instructions): "ATTENTION INSTALLER: Rack the entire room before nailing to randomly distribute lengths, see instruction on back."The cost differences among #1 common and Select, red and white seem to vary as much with supply as with what you'd logically expect. On this job I'd planned to use #1 in hidden areas and Select in the open but the spread was so marginal I used all Select. White (which I needed was actually less that red) which is not always the case.Non-usable waste (knot to be removed) was only about 1" in 3 bundles. Lost a little ripping at one wall (to match old run, new room is narrower than old room)). Most of the rest was cut offs too short to be usable at the end wall. I've got a router set up for flooring jobs with a 3 wing slot cutter bit and guide bearing so I can quickly re-groove the end of any cut off strip of usable length and work it into the floor anywhere it fits. Haven't figured total waste but I'd guess its under 3%. An interesting thing has happened with WIDTH, however. As some of you suggested at my "wood was under linoleum" post, I transitioned from old to new strip floors with a 6" plank at 90 degrees to the run of the strips. I carefully aligned the run of the new strips with the run of the old. The first new strip went down exactly in line with an old strip. Both new and old strips appear to measure 2 1/4 in width. But after about 12 strips were down I checked alignment for square to transition and parallel to old run. They were dead on those criteria but the new and old strips were offset by about 1/2"! I can only guess that a) there were minor differences in widths of new and old or of some individual pieces or b) that with the nailing machine I was snugging strips together more tightly than in the old, hand nailed floor.
*Along these lines, we went to a bunch of open houses today of new homes. I saw a wide variation in the finish of the hardwood floors. How do the pre-finished floors compare to finish-in-place in terms of cost, durability, ease of installation, and owner satisfaction?
*Rusty, with so many variables in your question, coupled with a variety of suppliers, installers, and usages... it's impossible to say with any certain degree.I like traditional 3/4 inch thick flooring, and I believe it offers the best overall value if everything is done correctly: Selection of material, prep., layout, installation and finishing.For certain applications, a prefinished laminated flooring may match the Homeowner's needs best... I refer them elsewhere for that product. An example: Install and finish a new wood flooring material in the same time as carpeting. "Can you do it today? Can I have it incolors? How about patterns? Can you do it today? We've a party tonight, and I want a new floor."
*RustyAll the prefinished that I've seen have slightly i chamferededges so that minor vaiations in thickness that would have been looked after by sanding do not look too(o)unsightly. . . but these chamfers b SCREAMat me, and, to my eye, detract from the look of the floor Bigtime. I kinda like v-groove on wainscotting, cabinet doors or ceiling t&g, but not at all on flooring. But this issue doesn't address your actual question which I'll leave for others who have installed them!!-pm
*Ken, I sell the job, I select the material... now. (Implied learning-curve.) A sad fact is: Most suppliers would rather stiff a one-shot homeowner, than a professional installer or contractor. Promise me quality and give me garbage once, and no business of mine will grace your doorway ever again. On a slow year that would be a few less sales, on a good year...? Add the referals to your construction buddies, or lack thereof too?
*Roger that. Those chamfered edges make it look like a tinker-toy floor rather than traditional, solid construction. In the few floors I've done I've ALWAYS found at least a couple of places in each floor that require a cross cut or ripped piece that won't get hidden by baseboards or some other trim (e.g. trimming in around a hearth or making a transition between rooms or the other surfaces). The usual solution is to use a raised saddle or trim piece to hide the cut. I happen to think that's just as ugly as the chamfer and a tripping hazard for older folks if it's in a traffic path. The pre-finished, chamfered stuff makes it difficult to handle a fully flush transition when the chamfer has been removed or the finish removed to recreate a chamfer.
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I have to agree on the look of the chamfered adges, and then explain why I use them anyway. Sure, its not the perfect floor, but when you install a pre-finished floor yourself it's competitive in price with good carpeting. In (at most) ten years that carpeting is going to need replacing, while the oak floor will outlast me. As a do it yourselfer, I can redo a room with prefinished flooring in one day start to finish and not have to worry about sanding dust and fumes all over the house. Perfect? No, but a lot better than carpet when you're already living in the house and always seem to be working on it.
Carlos
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I don't like the look of chamfered edges either. I'm planning on using prefinished flooring from Century Mfg. produced just up the road a piece -- it has square edges and is very good quality.
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Is this a full 3/4" thick product?
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I don't mind the look of beveled edges as much as I disike how it gathers crumbs. You have to sweep the length of each groove and then try to flip the dirt up and out at the end of the run. Am I the only poster here who does some of the housework? -David
*Housework: Noun. To Work on Houses. Refurbishment.Renovation. Repair. Construction. Alteration.Yep, we do that. Did I miss anything? :)
*G.W.Sounds about right to me. . . I'm gonna print that one up in 80 point Bodini Bold, hang it where the "little lady" can't miss it!!!Man that dish water plays hell with my calouses-pm
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Just had hardwood floor installed-#1 common white oak. I'm disappointed in the number of shorts used in floor and the process of staggering pieces. Too many 1' pieces used in concentraded areas and too much stairstepping. Of course installer said "I've done it like that before" From the number of floors I've had installed over the years I know that's not the proper installation. My question is-What is the mix of lengths or average length in a 25 sq ft bundle and what is the industry standard for layout? This is about 2000 sq ft that I'm considering he might have to take it all out. Thanks for your help!