What value per square ft. for heated garage space. 100% obviously not accurate but seems like 50% of house cost per sq/ft. is a little low. I always let my estimate tell me a bottom line price but it is nice to be able to plug in a price per sq./ft. to let a potential client know if their new house plan and budget fit together. I think 65% is the number.
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Replies
In a heated garage the only thing that is missing is the floor system.
You have taller studs, more wall sheathing, overhead doors, entry doors and windows that have to be framed down to match the houses, more sheetrock and mud.
I wouldn't drop the price. I don't drop it. Square ft is square ft. No matter the intended use.
This is off topic but square footage is not square footage. For example, the difference you cite "In a heated garage the only thing that is missing is the floor system. " is significant with regard to overall construction costs of the garage. More to my point though, speaking to you as a framer (I think that is what you do?), I pay my framers less per sq ft for porches and garages than for heated sq footage. That is just the deal I have negotiated with him though, and I have to take the total framing labor package into account; quality of workmanship, responsiveness, price, willingness to do punch work, etc. Likewise, he has to consider how much business I can give him, how quickly I pay, etc. Admittedly on the houses I'm doing right now, the garages don't have windows though, and BTW the studs are the same as used on the house 1st flr. If a customer wanted the garage heated, I'd still pay the framer the same.
Still home building prices can't just be estimated by sq ft prices. Sq ft figures are really only useful to give a direct indication of how big the house is. When a builder gives a sq ft price, that is just a SWAG, and really should only be used in preliminary talks.
Don't take this the wrong way. You are breaking it off in your framer then.
My insurance costs, taxes and overhead are all the same building a garage, porch, house or a doghouse for that fact.
My employees don't ask for less money because we are building a garage.
>>>>>> (I think that is what you do?), <<<<<<
I don't specialize in any one field, I do alot of them good. Thats why I stay busy. I don't just show up and slap stuff together. I know what the next steps down the line are. I know that if I did slap things together the subs that follow me will have a harder time doing their job, thus costing the GC more money in change orders and materials.
Matt, we are from two different areas so I'll give you the reasons for my posts. So it doesn't sound like I'm a ranting lunatic. :)
Our foundations are all poured at one height. Then the houses floor system sits on the mudsills.
But in the garages there is no floor system, so all the studs have to be cut. Could be anywhere from 10-12' studs usually. Then the sheathing had to be all cut as well. The RO's have to framed down to match the houses on the exterior. If we didn't you probably couldn't operate the double hungs either.
Sheetrock gets the oddball cuts, insualtion batts have to be all cut, can't use the precut kind due to taller studs.
If I could use precut studs and sheathing that didn't have to be pieced together I can see a lower framing price. As well as construction costs.
As far as porchs go those aren't too bad, half of ours are over walk out basements. Two stories in the air that cover decks. THat makes for slow progress there.
The sq. ft. number is very much a swag I agree. But you have to have something to throw out there and be safe when you're in that initial meeting. I am trying to not spend my time estimating jobs that are 50% over budget before we get to the beginning.
"No matter the intended use. "Ha!Price a kitchen in comparison to a garage by the footThe two together might come closer to averaging with the overall cost of the house though. Is that your point?Not a sqft guy here
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Matt was trying to come up with a pecentage of his normal sq ft price for a garage.
Why would he drop it? Like I said before insurance, taxes and overhead are not cheaper because you or I are building a garage is it?
Garages in my area are a slower due to the lack of the floor system. Plates usually have to line up and thats where you get the odd ball dimensions for everything from framing on.
My point is why drop the price? If you have it figured out on a house that you can profit for $150 a sq ft, then why try to make your budget tighter by only charging a percentage of that. Then expect your subs to do the same. It's not the subs fault the GC gave the garage away at 60% of the normal rate.
Do the electricians, sheet rockers, insulators, roofers, siders work for that same rate? 60% of their normal price. My money is on no, then why expect the framer too? His bills are just as real as the rest of yours.
A framer would have same work and price, but the other subs would have lower costs in garage, normally.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
By his posts it sounds like his framer is dicounting the garage price. Not sure why.
>> By his posts it sounds like his framer is dicounting the garage price. <<
That's right.
>> Not sure why. <<
Maybe because he wanted the job? I'm not forcing him to work for me. I have another guy who will do it for less per sq ft - same price, all areas - the price comes out about the same. I chose not to hire him simply based on the fact that he is not as professional - has trouble returning calls - doesn't show up on the job when he says, etc.
It was 7 spec houses. For the guy I did hire it kept at least one of his crews busy for 2 months. And there are a bunch more lots once we get some sold signs. Like I said, you have to consider the entire package. His guys had work. He has a brand new full sized SUV and a brand new pickup. Looks like he is doing OK to me. I don't think he is hurting too much - I just didn't fund his family trip to the islands this winter... BTW - nobody funded mine either ;-)
If you have enough business to just say - this is the price - period! More power to ya. Hopefully you are very busy and your crew(s) were out making money for you today.
When I used to work for home owners, I wasn't flexible on my prices - that's a different game. That's not the way it works in new construction - not around here anyway. I'm not saying I bargain with every sub. But if a package price seems a little high - yes I bargain. If the guy says he has no flexibility, I just tell him "I'll get back to ya", or "I'll let you know if I can work with that $number". Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. They know the game... I like to keep with the same subs as much as I can - but I still have budgets I have to work within. No sub is selling something I can't buy somewhere else.
Couple of things.
How big is the garage? I have built attached 1, 2, 3, and 4 car garages. Gable roof, hip , shed? 24 x 24 or 60 x 36?
Once had a G.C. ask me essentially the same question about a porch , looking for a framing estimate on a bid for a house. I started asking questions and came to find out the porch was a complete 12'wrap around with full roof hipped at all corners. Double 6 x 6 columns with routed edges, exposed rafter work and sheathing, full pedestals and cornice blocks, cascading stairs all side. Costs more to build it per sq. ft then the house did to frame and finish.
Years ago out here no one talked about including garages in the cost, it was a given (course no one mentioned that the framers just included an up charge to the house sq. ft. price to build them either), installing windows was a framers job as were all the felting , ext. doors and any soffit work for cabinets or hvac..
Doesn't work that way anymore. price per sq. ft of actual house hasn't kept up with inflation so now everything is an add on.
What you pay generally translates into what you get, be it a tool , a truck , or a framing job.
I guess what it boils down to is why are you having to discount the garage? Are you doing that to stay competitive in your area?
By heated do you mean totally finished, trim, paint, the works? Are your homes built on slabs? Just trying to get a handle on what you are asking for. A little late I know.
I don't know what the OP is paying his framer, but I would run as fast as I could from someone who wants to discount garages and porches. I mean the studs cost the same as the studs in the house, and there's the extra effort to put in the garage door headers and what about all the porch beams ? I try to stay away from a sqare foot price too, I just name the price for the job and list what it includes. If the hiring party wants to break it down into some sqare foot number on their own time, that's there perogative. I don't list it on my bids. Matt,
The house I'm doing now has 6397 living and 8566 total covered. The porches count for 1100 square feet and have 17 arches. The two garages total another 1200 feet. Could you tell me how you would offer to pay these in relation to the rest of the house ?John
I've been lurking on this boad a long time, posted a time or two as well. This thread strikes me as typical of this place. Guy asks a pretty straightforward question, and gets an argument in response. If it weren't so funny, it could drive you crazy.
Back to the original question: anybody have a rough number they use to get a fast and dirty guesstimate on garage construction costs as compared to overall home consturction costs?"If the trout are lost, smash the state."
100%
Fair enough dovetail, if that's your first guess, it's your first guess.
I think "garage" even a heated garage, and I don't see any floor framing, or a finished floor, but there is slab cost which might be pricier than some foundation choices. I don't see paint on the walls, or even finished tape seams in the drywall. I don't see interior trim on the windows. I wouldn't expect any savings on framing (and maybe even some increases in framing costs as others pointed out), or exterior finishes, but I would expect some on interior finishes. "If the trout are lost, smash the state."
I mentally jumped back to the OP's question in which the phrase "heated" was used. I take "heated" in mentally and picture finished.
Finished as in hard trowelled floor, insulated, rocked taped and finished,, wired , well lit, painted , any openings trimmed to match the house trim, electric opener on the insulated garage door.
I was a high .. maybe 85% finished (no plumbing, no cabinets), but for framing... 100%
In my area, 95% of the garages are attached, and couldn't be seperated without changing the house. For the other 5% that are detached, they must "look" like the house. I can't tell you how much a garage costs in relationship to the house, I can only say that I think that the idea of dividing cost by living space to get a price per foot is flawed. I think the price divided by total covered will give you a much better solution. In the long run, you get what you pay for.
Edited 1/29/2007 11:17 pm ET by KirkpatrickFramer
Seemed pretty straight forward to me, too, but all of the variations on the question are good to hear. I know about garage framing and house framing being the same thing. Also electrical is pretty much 100% But how does it break down in the end? The price per sq.ft is thrown around a lot in my market...lots of owner builders and realtors weighing in. I always look at each component of the house and get a whole number that way. I'm just looking for some consensus and back up in the garage percentage.
>>>>>I mean the studs cost the same as the studs in the house, and there's the extra effort to put in the garage door headers and what about all the porch beams ? <<<<
Thats the same thing I am trying to say, the labor rates are the same. Sure there aren't cabinets and plumbing, but neither do bedrooms and closets. Do those get lumped in with the garage too?
>>>>The porches count for 1100 square feet and have 17 arches. <<<<
That sounds like a house I framed last year, I even got to finish the porchs. Bead board, and hardi board. I love arches!!
View Image
BTW I thought you wanted some carpenter pencils for the barrel vault advice. Email me an address to send them to.
Edited 1/30/2007 6:18 am ET by Stilletto
I can't see the plans from here... Sounds pretty complicated. Couldn't say. Like you said though, it all boils down to the overall price for a job. I think we all agree on this. Sounds like you may be supplying the materials too.
BTW - On the houses I build, porches are nothing more than roofs with temporary supports where the columns will go later. Concrete or brick floors. If there are any arches or similar the boxing and siding guys does that stuff later. No groin vaults or anything like that; ceilings are flat or sloped.
Unless you are building generic houses, I can't see how a ballpark figure can be even close. Many heated garages are just as nice as any interior space.
Our current project has a precast garage floor and a room under it. Add radiant heat and it would have an ideal amount of mass to make the garage as comfortable as any slab can be. Acid stain the floor and it's as good looking as any. We have a number of windows and doors every bit as expensive as the rest of the house.
Garages aren't just garages anymore.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Obviously your current garage project does not apply. Congratulations on having such a nice project. But you can build custom houses with a normal garage without them being generic. Maybe you missed that step in building your business.
With all the work that goes into any heated garage (insulation, ducts, sheetrock, trim for the sheetrock, etc. I didn't think your project was all that different in construction from any normal living space.
Maybe I'm missing something.
Regardless, my intention isn't to say you are building plain jane garages, rather to question if your costs for all that work are any less per square foot than something like a large slab on grade bedroom.
A garage door is every bit as expensive as a couple of bedroom windows. Any other exterior door in the garage is many times as expensive as a simple interior one. True, there are some economies of scale in a large square garage with simple trussed roof, but often it seems contractors are too quick to assign costs of shared items to the main house.
For instance, in your garage estimate do you include half the cost of any shared walls or foundation? Many argue the main exterior house walls have to be there and leave them out of the calculation altogether. This is true if we are talking incremental costs in a decision to build the garage or not, but if the garage is 100% going to be built no matter what, then the square footage costs should include half of any shared areas to get a realistic picture of each.
If the garage juts out away from the main house then there is probably a larger proportion of foundation per sqft than other areas.
If the utilities are located in the garage the sqft cost of that area should be shared by all the conditioned areas as a percentage. Garage space isn't free, never has been, never will.
How is the driveway into the garage priced? As part of the garage or separated out? If it's simply thrown in to the whole house pot as a necessary evil, perhaps it should be assigned to the garage, or at least what a driveway costs above basic sod.
I can't comment on how or why framers, sheetrockers, etc. agree to throw in garage areas for dirt cheap, since we work T&M and can't see how any of those areas require less materials or man power to put up.
Good luck with your quest.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I'm with you on all of that. I know the costs are close but have been looking for the % swag number to present to the civilians at the beginning of negotiations. I think I'll move up to 70% and let the detailed estimate take care of the number after that.
Thanks for the insight.
As you say, garages are a somewhat cheaper to build than regular interior space, but if it's heated, the "somewhat" becomes more like "a little". 65% seems pretty low to me. This whole thing about trying to plug in square foot prices is only good for initial guesstimates of house prices. It's not how builders price custom homes.
Sorry for dragging your thread off on a tangent.
How about this.fully finished living space costs APPROXIMATELY X in my area, for a certain style and trim level.The garage costs APPROXIMATELY 50-60% of X. Standard garage/ insulated, rock no tape, 1by trim.The basement costs APPROXIMATELY 25% of X, unfinished. finished to first floor level, it is 100% of X.This is in the midwest, where things are cheap, and basements are common, and $100 a foot is not unreasonable for quality construction with basic finish level, and no octagons or eyebrows, or barrel vaults.
65%
SamT
Guys that don't do things correctly the first time.....then argue that they did nothing wrong.....if made to agree to fix the problem, rarely put the time and effort into truely doing it properly. they'll just look for the quickest fix to appease you and get their money. JDRHI 84310.51
I still like the 65% number for the rough number over a cup of coffee. I just can't get away from answering that question. I should probably do a detached garage estimate and settle the question. But then that really doesn't do it either. Detached and attached can't be the same, either.
And even the same sized attached may not be created equal. Say if one has it's complete own roof but shares one house with the house and the other is simply under the living space in the main "box" of the house.