I am visiting some friends who just had their roof replaced in its entirety. The elected to go with a well-referenced roofing contractor who installed CertainTeed “Grand Manor Shangles” throughout. This last week, the place has had multiple leaks, which seem to stem largely from the roof valleys and chimney flashings. I went through the installation manual that CertainTeed published, and this install seems to diverge significantly.
For one, the valley flashingsa are only maybe 6″ wide and are covered by the shingles insead of being uncovered as shown in the manual. Furthermore, the shingles were not woven into each other (as I have seen on others roofs where there was no metal visible in the valley). Instead, the shingles were cut along the length of the valley on both sides, then sealed with tar. Is this normal?
I was also not impressed with the trimming of the copper under the valleys, as it extends into the gutter. I presume this will just lead to widespread overshooting of the corner. Nevermind, the adhesive release strips I still found attached to the shingles and the cover someone installed at the bottom of the roof valley (the pic with the banister), causing all the water to run down the wall.
The flashings around the real and fake chimneys diverges also, with none of the steps one usually finds along the edge between the chimney and the roof shingles. As installed, I suspect that the water runs down the face of the chimney and is then sucked under the shingles through capillary or whatever action.
Any thoughts on how to prevent the current widespread leakage that is plagueing this install? The valleys and flashings seem to be one source but more water is entering elsewhere via the ridges also, it seems. This looks like a big headache… Can this be fixed w/o ripping the whole roof off?
Replies
Sounds like the state licensing board for starters...
constantin.. where is this ? what state ? the techniques are so different from what we would do, i hesitate to start...
are you sure both sides of the valley are cut ?
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i see many potential leaks.. i'd call Certainteed and see if i could get a factory rep out.. somebody ain't following instructions
Hi Mike,At least one side is cut overlapping slightly - imagine an offset running down the lenght of the valley, maybe 0.5" from the center - then seal the seam with tar. I have enclosed another set of pics that shows a different valley in better detail.The roof is maybe 3 months old. They've had a dry summer, so I imagine that was the saving grace until now. The homeowners also know they need new gutters, but I guess I would have done it all at once or not at all. The flashing against the walls with tar and the chimney's is off, no? I simply note how the old flashing (still lurking under the new stuff against the chimney) was applied per the instructions from CertainTeed in a step-wise manner.The location is NJ. I hope that this can be fixed w/o ripping most of the roof off. Also, what could cause ridges to leak?
Edited 10/11/2005 1:54 pm ET by Constantin
well, i'd be surprised if there wasn't a leak in this picture ..
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we'd never flash a chimney that way here ... that's a cut reglet and one piece flashing ... but i do know that it is often done in other parts of the country
this is how a typical chimney would be flashed here..
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as for valleys .... the grand manor is too thick to weave.. so it should either be an open valley ( metal ) or a California cut ( minor roof turns up the major roof , and major roof gets cut neat in the valley line .... major roof sheds onto minor roof )
but i'd have to check my Certainteed manual for their required valley install... Grand Manor may have some peculiar requirements
ridges could be leaking if they were not properly lapped before they were capped..
hard to say without being there
i'd still give Certainteed a call for a looksee
Edited 10/11/2005 12:23 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 10/11/2005 12:25 am ET by MikeSmith
here's a California cut in progress
Ice & water up the valley..
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then minor roof lapping across the valley and up the major roof
then major roof cut neat to the valley line
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 10/11/2005 12:37 am ET by MikeSmith
Mike,Thanks so much for your thoughtful posts and the pictures. If my wildest dreams come true, I'll find out that the HO's took pictures during construction - at least then we'd know for sure how the roof came together, whether underlayers were used (looks like it), etc. Even though our Mansard has none of he difficult roofing details this home does, what I saw up there simply didn't make sense. My own house has a stepped copper flashing similar to the one you posted, so the lack of similar ones around the chimneys simply didn't make sense. I also agree that these shingles are unusually thick. I suppose that is supposed to make them very wear resistant? Time will tell, but I currently believe that my DuraSlate will last longer than this stuff.Many thanks again... do you think proper flashing can be retrofitted without too much damage to the roof?
Edited 10/11/2005 1:55 pm ET by Constantin
cons.... i think someone was trying to save money..
the tar on the clapboard tells me the sidewall flashings were no good, so, instead of pulling the siding off, replacing the flashings and then redoing the siding in conjunction with the roofing .. they just tarred it and hoped for the best..
seems like there may have been a lot of hoping for the best on that job
hoping for the best usually results in leaksMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Good Morning, MikeThanks again for your analysis. I sent the pictures to my GC in MA who is doing our house and he just about bounced off the chair. The flashing detail issues even I could see, but he (like you) went into a lot more detail regarding what was done with the siding, the scarring to the shingles, the underlayment schedule, and all the other specific things that CertainTeed spells out in their installation manual.I also wonder to what extent the ridge and hip roofing was done properly, as I cannot see the "exhaust" vents up there. That's not to say they aren't there, I just need to climb up and take another look. Presumably, the wood of the deck has to cut back to expose something to vent into said venting shingle, right? Because their remedy in the main part of the house was to retrofit 3 Aluminum round vents. They also left a power venter in place, even though someone (and not necessarily them) has stepped on it and had broken the shroud that protects the house from water damage.I was also not too enamored with finding an empty McDonalds soda drink up there.I need to do some investigating this morning to find out if a permi was needed, pulled, etc. Also, we need to understand whether this installer is a CertainTeed-certified installer, and if so, where the lifetime warranty paperwork is. I also want to review their contract to see if my friends specifically declined to renew the step-flashing and other details where old meets new. Calling CertainTeed begging for them to send a rep out here to have a look might also be a good idea.In other words, looks like a busy morning.
Well, here is an update.As best as I can tell, the local township doesn't do roofing permits or inspections. The contractor is a big company but not CertainTeed-certified. He didn't know what a California-cut is but claimed that the roofing as installed was done that way. Your description (dominant vs. small roof) for the overlapping pattern does not seem to have been followed though.He also claimed that stepflashing was impossible because the old flashing had been grouted into the chimneys. My BS meter is now ringing at full-tilt because I don't see how difficult it is to remove old flashing and grout and properly set a new set that is stepped like the chimney in your picture. Allegedly, he will be back tomorrow to re-do the flashing.Outside the roofers responsibility is the ridiculous valley design that the Architect/Builder used in this place. Having a valley project into or exit right next to the corner of a house seems like a wonderful way to keep carpenters, roofers, and other people busy and the house wet. Allegedly, a carpenter will be on the way to re-do all the dormers and other exposed pieces of wood. However, do carpenters usually weave in the flashing? I thought that carpenters were there to apply wood over the flashing work done by the roof guys. But then again, what do I know.
Edited 10/11/2005 1:59 pm ET by Constantin
so, cons... what is your interest in this project...just a friend ?
be careful about semantics... the roofer may just have a bad way with words
i'm confused, so far you've mentioned NJ, Long Island and Mass... how did Mass get into the equation..
sounds like a fun situation..
keep us in the loopMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sorry for the confusion, Mike... I live in MA, my house under renovation is in MA, these folk live in NJ. I have a very good relationship with my GC in MA. Lets just say that my friends in NJ are very good friends and that they spent a ton of money to have the best roofing system (they thought) they could have installed. When the roof started to leak during the latest set of rainstorms, they asked me to come down and help assess the situation.I wasn't part of the roofing decision, as I would have advocated insulating the roof with an insulated deck to get rid of the ridge vents, etc. expand the conditioned space, and decrease their HVAC costs (some of their furnaces/air handlers are in the attic). But you already knew that I would lean in that direction, didn't you? :-PBarring a reconfig of the roof system, I would have steered them in the direction of DuraSlate or similar products. If the idea is to imitate slate, why not imitate really, really well? :-) However, I'm not convinced that these installers would have done a better job with the DuraSlate considering how well they did with the CertainTeed stuff.
Edited 10/11/2005 11:21 pm ET by Constantin
Grand Manor is a great shingle.... it certainly deserved better than this ham & egger gave it
for ridge vent i like ShingleVent II... and the Grand Manor has a special hip & ridge shingle to cover it..
the stupid mushroom vents are de'riguer in a lot of different areas of the country..
especially in the mid-west
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have but one word: Speechless.