Hip Truss Question from a Stickframer
Timuhler
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Monday, we’ll set hip trusses on the frame we are on. I’ve only every done hip trusses once and that was while I was still in school and just a newbie framer.
So what tips can you guys give me?
Here is what the house will look like http://www.mascord.com/plan_details.asp?PlanID=1231A&PlanGraphicID=2612&np=true
Here is the layout http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph…93238A1F984027
The main pitch is going to be a 4.75″-12, even though the layout shows 5-12. We have to lower the roof because of height restrictions and the front/back gable will just match the height of the main roof.
Any pics, tips and tricks are welcome. Since I haven’t done this before, I’m all ears 🙂
Replies
You've got a telescopic forklift? Right?
If so, and provided there is room, block up on the ground and build the whole hipset there, then hoist the assembly up. Done.
Edit: By the hipset, Tim, I mean everything from the twinply girder on out. Your stepups above that should go on the plates. I hope your trussie was good to you and dropped the topchords of the stepups and gave you a nice lay-on!
Edited 8/15/2006 7:10 pm ET by Gene_Davis
The yousendit link is no good.
Could ya try it again?
Try this Boss
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=1C1D819964E3F87C&[email protected]
I've been looking over the truss drawings and I'm so ignorant that a lot of the language is new for me :-)
I don't think it has a layover, but I've got no pics of the jacks.
Tim, you only have one hipset to deal with. It's a rather lengthy one, but not too tall.
Like Gene said, lay it down and build it on the ground. Becuase you're a novice with these things, keep it simple. Don't try to put the entire jack package together even though you could.
In most instances, we also keep it simple. That means that we'd only install the jacks J7 and up. We'd just toss the smaller end jacks into the "attic" and let them ride up when we set it with the crane.
The jack layout shows two J14 very close together. I would be inclined to switch my layout to 16" oc after I layed out the J13. That would make it easier to nail the hangers on the J14, but usually the LUS24's (hangers) are fairly simple to get nails into, even in close quarters.
I'm not familiar with the way your truss company does their endjacks but I think that your j1 and j2 jacks will have a short bottom chord that nails into j3. That's my guess and I'd be half the farm on that. You won't need hangers on such a short jack. They aren't showing any.
I'm assuming that you "A" girder is two ply. That drawing is not consistent though and I wouldn't bet the farm on that guess. You'll have to follow the "notes" on the individual "A" truss spec sheet.
I have several tips that you should take heed too. #1 don't do anything till you've studied the entire truss package and understand exactly where every truss goes. You'll have to understand why everything goes where it goes and know how they will connect. Before you start your walls, you should have this entire roof in your head. You'll need to know every wall height, every heel and where every hanger goes. If you get stumped, study the actual truss. #2 When you build the hipset, make sure it is flat and not too wavy.
blue
I couldn't see any details on the paper work, truss numbers and stuff. The picture came up on my computer screen the size of a postage stamp for each page.
Well, I have a lot of observations and comments. 1. The truss designer is fairly new/unskilled or doesn't give a crap about his work. This sucks.2. They didn't give you the most basic info about how to lay out the hip trusses - The setbacks. You need the dimensions from the right end of the building to the face of the girder "A", as well as the dimension from the corners of the building to the face of hip jack "J3". The layout of all the trusses is pulled from that point.3. You don't need a hip frame - This is a california hip. On the jacks such as "J14", the top chords reach al the way up to the ridge board. 4. I would want to know for certain that trusses like "A6" have bearing where the vertical web comes down. If they don't, you've got problems.Also make sure the vertical is in the right place.5. The layout of their gable studs doesn't start in the center of the gable trusses. I've never once seen anyone lay gable studs out that way.6. No way would I go for ~50' trusses with 2X4 chords. Once they get that big they need bigger chords and oversized plates for handling stresses.7. The loading wasn't applied correctly to girder "A7". The designer just used whatever loads the computer threw on there, and didn't double-check 'em. Very amateurish.8. If the right end vertical on girder "A7" was in tension instead of compression, it wouldn't require a brace.9. The webs in truss "A1" could also be flipped around to eliminate braces. 10. Trusses like "C3" and "C1" could easily be interchanged or set backwards in the field. The designer made the webs symmetrical, but didn't plate the truss symmetrically. That's a problem waiting to happen.The same thing is true with trusses "A", "A1", "A2, "A3","A5", and "A6". And ditto with trusses "C6" and "C7"..I could go on, but I'm getting tired of typing. If you look in the lower right-hand corner of the truss drawings, you'll see the initials "AMD". (under the date) Those are the initials of the truss designer. My suggestion would be to set up a meeting with that person, and ask some questions. Tell 'em you wanna see a VRML image of the trusses. The Alpine software they use can do that. (They use the same software I do. I posted a couple of VRML images in my "boogerin" thread if you want to see what I mean) That will give you a MUCH better idea of how the whole thing will fit together.Ask for more dimensions and information. And insist that they fix some of the problems I mentioned.Other than that, everything looks fine.(-:BTW - What company did this?
Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.
Interesting and excellent comments Boss.
You've identified one of my pet peeves about truss companies. These are worse than we usually see. Our truss companys actuall warn us not to rotate the trusses but this company didn't bother to warn against it even though they built them asymetrical. The "A" girder would be especially troublesome if they didn't notice the slight difference in the webs. The thing that especially irks me is that even though I see the difference in web design, I still don't have any clue which end goes where.
I've never seen gables layed out like that either. Ours either have a stud at the peak, or they are spaced 1' from the peak. I wish all truss companys would always leave us the space in case we have to recess a vent.
I agree about that setback info for the girders. It will be simple stuff to measure the jack bottom chord but we shouldn't have to rummage around the pile to get this basic info.
Good call on the desiner experience.
blue
Hmmmm... the image would not open on my screen. Sounds like there aren't hip trusses but instead a series of steps. In which case everything I said is wrong.
I attached the PDF file to this post so everyone could access it easier if they wanted to look at it.
Bumpersticker: I'm not tailgating. I'm drafting
O.K. - I guess the danged thing doesn't WANB to be attached. I took forever to upload, and it looked like it was there. Don't know what happened....
DW and I were lying nude in bed last night. I moved closer and said "I am going to make you the happiest woman in the world." DW says "I'll miss you."
One truss company supplies most of the trusses around here. For hip roofs they provide a girder truss, a hip truss that goes in at 45 degrees to the girder, a mirror-image set of hip jacks that hang off the hip truss, and then commons that hang off the girder (if needed). They install 2x8 as uprights in the girder where the hips come in so there's hanger nailing. Very simple to put together, no hip blocking needed. Is this what your shop does?
"For hip roofs they provide a girder truss, a hip truss that goes in at 45 degrees to the girder.....Is this what your shop does?"
I don't do that unless I absolutely have to. (Like a scissored hip)
There are a couple of things about that kind of hip that I don't like. First is that it takes special hangers, which are a pain to put on. And you can't have a very long setback without getting into problems.
Second is drywall - How the heck are you supposed to hang drywall on one of tose corners? Which way do you run the sheets?
Dear Abby, My boyfriend is going to be twenty years old next month. I'd like to give him something nice for his birthday. What do you think he'd like? From Carol
Dear Carol, Never mind what he'd like. Give him a tie.
So, if I ordered a hip roof from you, would I get a series of step-down trusses, and if so would I have to then block my hip line for the plywood edges? Or, would I get a layover assembly like Gene speaks of? Just curious, having never done it that way.
Also, kudos to you for thinking about the rockers.
I think most everyone around here sends out a "hip gable" with their step-down trusses. But how hip trusses and corner sets varies widely from one region to another. It even varies a lot from one truss company to another in the same city. So it's worth asking anytime you order a set of hip trusses.
Why do irons have a setting for permenant press?
It seems like you really know your sh#$. Unfortunetely, most truss packages in my neck of the woods (NW) are sent out similar to this one. I think the truss companies here assume that the framers will just figure it out and send out the packages and info with very little info. I wish the paperwork I got had as much info as you just described. Maybe my next house I'll have you do the design and just have my local company build em.
Thanks all for the comments. I'll get to them in more detail, but I'm on my way out.
Boss,
I forget the name of the truss company. We've had problems with truss companies around here in the past and have only used this company 2 times, maybe 3? and they were simple gable roofs.
Boss,
Thanks for the info. I'm really glad I posted now :-) I'll try and figure something out. The salesman is extremely hard to locate and the company itself when we call makes it really hard to find someone who can/will talk to us.
This is part of the reason why we don't use trusses much. In our area it is just a real pain to work with the companies. If we are too demanding, they tell us to just take a hike.
Trusses I've set over here come from Woodinville Lumber. I've had one or two occasions to call their designers and get input. Not a bad outfit to deal with, and oh yeah the stuff I've put up actually fit.
"If we are too demanding, they tell us to just take a hike."
That stinks. Unfortunately I don't really know any fabricators in the are I could refer you to.
But it doesn't sound like this is a company I'd want to do business with...
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I was just wondering what you meant by #7? Are you refering to that 6' hole (truss A7)?
"I was just wondering what you meant by #7? Are you refering to that 6' hole (truss A7)?"
Yup - I was talking about the space from web 1 to web 3 where no loading is applied.
I've always taught designers that on a girder truss, the loading is the FIRST thing you look at when you pull it out of the layout. That way problems like this one are prevented.
Why do they call it "Oriental Strand Board"???
You will have a layover. You've got one on top of the stepped downs and one over the back side of the b3's and b4's.
A8 is a cute truss. I've never seen one shipped like that to us.
I noticed in the specs that you have an abundance of lateral bracing. It gets confusing to locate those members once the trusses are standing so sometimes we use construction marking paint and paint a neon orange mark on the trusses when they are still packaged up. It makes is a lot easier for me to inspect for lateral bracing after the rookies tell me that it's all done.
blue
"You will have a layover. You've got one on top of the stepped downs and one over the back side of the b3's and b4's."
Nope - This is a california hip. The top chords on the jacks extend all the way up to the ridge board.
"I agree about that setback info for the girders. It will be simple stuff to measure the jack bottom chord..."
But what if you want to lay the trusses out before they arrive?
We ship a lot of our trusses on a crane truck. The framers lay the walls out before the truck shows up. You can't do that without the correct info.
Q: Why do men name their penises?
A: Because they want to be on a first-name basis with the person who makes all their decisions.
But what if you want to lay the trusses out before they arrive?
regional difference.
We have a standard $250 charge for starting a job without the trusses delivered onsite. We need our trusses on the first day, at about the third hour. If the trusses aren't there, we need the entire spec package. If that's not available, we don't start.
blue
blue,
Can you post or send me some pics? Any pics of trusses?
What kind of pics you lookin for? I may have some.
Anything and everything :-)
Okay heres a few. Blue has alot of good ones too.
Some more for you.
Heres a low pitched valuted set that I framed in the mud. My lacer is a relatively light 1x. Your girder is significantly longer and subject to flex and I'd probably lace it on the bottom chord, near the heel with a 2x6, well lapped. I'd still just grab it in two places without a spreader if I had that stronger lacer.
I did have a major girder crack in half in my early years. The fix was surprisingly easy: we nailed a 2x12 on the bottom chord at the break. The bottom chords were entirely snapped and had a slight gap! We were lucky that the hipset was over the walls already and the operator could ease them straight down rather quickly. We re-hooked and re- riggd to finish moving them into the proper spot.
We do so many of these that we know what/how to hook them. Mostly, we don't do anything special and just hook them at the top chord of the girder. Small ones will go up with only one cable. Larger ones get two cables. Real large ones get two straps. We normally use steel because the plates ruin the straps.
blue
Was it my tired old eyes, but did anybody else notice the hip having unequal pitches, AKA "bastard." I thought I saw, in plan view, hips at something but not 45, and with hips crossing corners, unequal overhangs.
According to Boss, this thing needs to go back to the drawing board, for a huge litany of valid reasons. But I am thinking it is built already and sitting on lowboys out in the yard, or maybe it is even on site.
Should be fun hearing back from Tim.
I don't know that Boss said that it had to be rebuilt. There might be a few things to look.
blue
Gene,
It is a split pitch roof, but the height at the plates is all equal if I'm reading the truss plans correctly.
We'll get them first thing Monday, so I'll post pics.
"...the height at the plates is all equal if I'm reading the truss plans correctly."
I'm not at home, so I don't have the PDF file. But since they didn't have a picture of the jack trusses, I'm not sure whatthey did.
Did the truss company give you any more info? Like layout info?
Not really. I called the designer and he said the girder truss is 6' in and otherwise 24"oc lay out that is fairly self explanatory.
Did he tell you where the layout for the end jacks started?I'm kinda guessing they started 2' in from the corner, but don't really know.
There are 2 basic ways that I do dual sloped hips. First - You keep the fascia lines at the same elevation, keep the same overhang length, and vary the heel heights. I do this 95% of the time.In this case, the ridge board would NOT go over the corner of the building.Second - Match the heel heights and vary the overhang length so the fascia lines match. In this case the ridge board WOULD go over the corner of the building.
I'm at DonK's house tonight, so I won't have any tag lines...
Hey Tim the roof doesn't look to bad, but I am a truss guy.
Build the hips on the ground, and crane them into place.
Set your girder truss up vertical and nail the plys of the girder together. Then toenail all of the mono trusses to the girders with 16d gun nails. Then put your hangers on the monos. Your girder may pitch up to a flat spot, and the point where the pitch meets the flat spot is where your first mono gets set. Pulling the spacing in either direction. When yoy hit the other side of the flat spot pitch point thats where another mono goes, doesn't matter what OC it is. Then pull the spacing from that truss again.
You end up with off sized sheeting but it fits this way. When you set the hip set, make sure the heel heights are the same, making your facia level. Once you have the heels the same and everything is nailed in place put your facia on and then check your points. If everything lines up from the facia to the girder to the peak start sheathing.
Build your gables on the ground as well, sheet them then put the ladder overhangs on them as we talked about some time ago. Once its nailed in place it's ready for sheathing.
Fire away with the questions man, I'll help you as much as I can.
I've done it a couple of times and it's easy... if the truss company sent a nice, easy-to-read plan view of the truss locations. Set the girder truss first, then set the hips at 45 degrees over to the wall corners, then set the jacks. They should send you a bunch of mondo hangers with the trusses, and you'll be shooting a whole bunch of hanger nails in the process. Kind of like the Geico commercial... it's so easy, even a cave man could do it.
T......Make sure that the hip pocket is square on the top double plates, divide the width of the house in half and watch out for the outside walls making sure they are the same width at hte back of the hip as they are at the endof the house...close enough is not good enough.....and double check walls for plumb.....you can probably tell that I learned the hard way a long time ago.........I just remind myself that the top double plate are the foundation of the roof.