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question:
When the people in the unit above mine (in my newly constructed condominium) flush toilets, it sounds as if the sluice gates of the Hoover dam have
opened. There is also the occasional roar of a tidal wave. This situation is
made worse by the fact that the builder put the plumbing pipes in the
middle of my living/dining room.
The builder of the condominium pats himself on the back as having the best reputation in town… and in general the work is good… (just weak management it seems)
The pipe is white – a vinyl I guess – and opening the wall and adding insulation (there was none) has not helped.
Any suggestions for a good, solid remedy (besides moving)?
Thank you
Replies
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question: When the people in the unit above mine (in my newly constructed condominium) flush toilets, it sounds as if the sluice gates of the Hoover dam have opened. There is also the occasional roar of a tidal wave. This situation is made worse by the fact that the builder put the plumbing pipes in the middle of my living/dining room.
The builder of the condominium pats himself on the back as having the best reputation in town... and in general the work is good... (just weak management it seems)
The pipe is white - a vinyl I guess - and opening the wall and adding insulation (there was none) has not helped.
Any suggestions for a good, solid remedy (beside moving)?
Thank you
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Unfortunately, your solid remedy is in the form of cast iron...pipe that is. To insure quiet waste lines it should have been used. At this point it is a very expensive fix. You may want to deal with this as a construction defect. Talk to the contractor, your homeowners association, the seller and then if necessary a lawyer.
*Deborah, Assuming that the insulation remedy was properly done, another consideration would be to ensure that the pipe is not touching anything on your walls and floor, Sound can be amplified if the vibration is able to conduct itself unobstructed.Just another thought...
*Add another sound proof wall a few inches away from the existing wall.Or, get some drums, guitars,and recording equipment, and use your creative talents to incorporate the gushing sounds into a new rock opera!Call yourself the flushing wonders, or somethinglike that.Blue
*Mike, I assume that since you said that this problem should be treated as a construction defect, if you are a builder, that you use only cast iron. If you do, you are part of a nearly extinct breed.P.S If lawsuits get filed over non use of cast iron, you had might as well call this site "broke time"
*Never, ever have I installed a verticle drain line in PVC inside a living area of a home. I think anyone who does so is acting below the standard of care for a competent contractor. Cast iron is the only option. Is there any real question as to that?PVC has its place (vents, horizontal drain lines in the basement) but under no circumstances would I ever install it in a living area. I would turn the job down. It would be like putting in 14-2 wire for an outlet in a kitchen. Yes, its legal in some places, but it will cause nothing but trouble later.Call it "Broke Time" or whatever you want, but the clown that designed that abortion of a condo should be shot. The general contractor should have a strong letter sent to him. I hope he sleeps well. The poor schmuck of a plumber that installed that mess was only doing his job, but I question how far you can go with that excuse.A good home inspector should have caught that and disclosed it to you when you purchased your condo. Pull out a copy. Most inspectors will fix, repair, or replace items they missed within a couple years of the Report, like termite damage, ungrouded outlets etc. If it doesn't disclose PVC drains, write that idiot a letter too.This whole scene reminds me of the army. When I was in the service, we had a code of the ten things you need to know:The most dangerous thing in the combat zone is an officer with a map.The problem with taking the easy way out is that the enemy has already mined it. The buddy system is essential to your survival; it gives the enemy somebody else to shoot at. If your advance is going well, you are walking into an ambush. The quartermaster only has 2 sizes, too large and too small. The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire. Never worry about the bullet with your name onit. Instead, worry about shrapnel addressed to "Occupant". All battles are fought uphill and in the rain. Tracers work both ways. If the enemy is in range, so are you. War is like love: to triumph, you must make contact. It isn't necessary to be an idiot to be a senior officer but it sure helps. Your equipment was made by the lowest bidder.Good Luck Deborah!
*Yes, PVC is going to be noisy. Cast iron is much quieter -- a remodeler down the road made a point of choosing it. Your builder is a bozo for not know or not caring about this. Replacing the drain is not too expensive ... not is it cheap. But you should not even consider putting up with this shoddy work.
*My work has always been SFR in which I have not used cast iron. Multiple residential is a different story. People can tolerate their own noise much better than their neighbor's noise. The defect is not in the non-use of cast iron but in an unacceptable noise level. Just as party walls are required in multiple residential construction, plumbing noise should be minimized. If it was necessary to do this by the use of cast iron then it should have been done. If it could have been done some other way then that should have been done. Obviously nothing was done, that's a defect.
*Deborah -Does your upstairs neighbor have a pressure flush toilet instead of a more conventional gravity flush? The sound of a pressure flush toilet is very difficult to mask. If that's the source of the noise all the insulation you can put in the wall cavity won't solve the problem, nor will cast iron piping.
*Scooter, Contrary to what you may have interpereted in my prior post,I believe 100% that cast iron should have been used in this appication. The sound of overhead drain lines can be Quite aggrivating. But like it or not, the pvc meets code and general building practices in much of the country. I believe that the homeowner can sue from now on and never get anything but a pile of legal bills. As to the home inspector. Mostall home inspections are limited to visual inspections, with basic testing of hvac,electrical systems, and plumbing systems in the subject property. In order for the inspector to determine for a fact that cast iron was not used for the upper unit he would have to open up some walls or ceilings. He may have been able to hear the offending noise if he flushed the toilet in the upper unit and ran downstairs quickly,but even though this noise affected the lower unit it was not within the scope of his inspection. Unlike electrical problems and termite infestation, this problem does not effect the homes safety or long term structural stability. In my opinion, the only thing the homeowner can do is to appeal to the builder's concern for his reputation and fairness.
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I'm curious, where is this building?, and how many floors does it have? we do know that it has at least 2, any more than that?. In some localaties, metal (steel, iron or copper) plumbing is _required_ for multistory, multifamily construction.
Jay
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Ditto. Working it out politely but FIRMLY with the builder is the way to go. Do so, at least initially, in WRITING, keep copies. I'm sure he has many jobs to sell in the future. Legal action may be more expensive (and aggravating) than simply fixing it, which you may want to consider paying for (or splitting with the builder?). Consider the cost of your prolonged aggravation ... the situation may not be fair, but the point here is your day-to-day satisfaction.
*You might want to check out a back issue (don't know which one, but it was 1-3 months ago) ofFamily Handyman. They talked about a high density foam/rubber specifically designed for noise reduction. It was heavy and expensive but since you've already 'opened the wall' it might bea choice. Fiberglass is not the best for sound reduction. In the meantime, keep after the builder.
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question:
When the people in the unit above mine (in my newly constructed condominium) flush toilets, it sounds as if the sluice gates of the Hoover dam have
opened. There is also the occasional roar of a tidal wave. This situation is
made worse by the fact that the builder put the plumbing pipes in the
middle of my living/dining room.
The builder of the condominium pats himself on the back as having the best reputation in town... and in general the work is good... (just weak management it seems)
The pipe is white - a vinyl I guess - and opening the wall and adding insulation (there was none) has not helped.
Any suggestions for a good, solid remedy (besides moving)?
Thank you