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How can i Change there mind???? Help

| Posted in General Discussion on September 19, 2001 02:12am

*
Our church Board just voted to have the 3 furnaces in our church replaced. The furnaces are 30years old and are Carriers. they are replacing because they think they might not make it through the winter.

hears the problem. they want to replace them with Janitrol. They only got one bid and it was from the son-in-law of one of the members. I told some of the Board members that janitrol would not last nearly as long as other companys. I consider Jantrol “Junk”. The price would be over $16,000 for the whole job.

what do you guys think??? was this a wise purchase?? and how could i change there mind.

thanks

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  1. Bob_Walker | Sep 16, 2001 06:49pm | #1

    *
    There is absolutely no way to predict whether a furnace is going to not make it thru the next winter.

    30 year's is "average" for older, naturally drafted furnaces, but plenty of them make it well past 30.

    How likely is it that all three would die at once? So, if 1 dies, replace it while the place doesn't go completely w/o heat.

    The heating guy I used to use in Pgh when I lived there used to advise to live with what's working: if the old stuff breaks it's usually easy to get going, even if jury rigged, newer stuff needs fancy parts which often have to be ordered.

    OTOH, newer stuff is a lot more efficient and might pay for itself pretty quickly.

    As a home inspector, I don't see many Janitrols in NW Ohio, and I never see new ones, but that could well be a regional thing. (The 30+ year old Janitrol in the apt I just moved into is working fine, and you don't see cast iron heat exchangers anymore, but it desparately needs a tune up. I think my landlord is becoming discouraged about renting to a home inspector)

    Most (all?) furnaces are made at 1 of something like 4 or 5 furnace factories and then get "private" labeled, so I wouldn't worry unduly about installing Janitrols without specific info.

    I think anyone who's spending that kind of $ without several bids is putting a bit too much trust in the big guy upstairs. Especially where there is a potential conflict of interest. Some of the hottest politics I've seen have been within church congregations!

    1. piffin_ | Sep 16, 2001 08:13pm | #2

      *I don't know much about furnaces but I know board politics - Stay out of it if you value your relationships. Friendships can last longer than furnaces. You NEVER get every body agreed on something like this. In view of that, I always bid more for jobs under governing boards like this, whether school, hospital, or fire dept. Instead of pleasing one or two people, I need to please eight or ten. It gets harder when they don't all agree.

      1. jon_ledebuhr | Sep 16, 2001 08:57pm | #3

        *thanks,the guy who will install it is a one man operation. they are going with him because they want to "help him out" he has several kids and a wife in school. They are not positive that the furnaces wont make it through the winter, but they want to be safe rather than sorry.the model they will be installing is a 92% efficient, which is a BIG improvement from what we have know. I just worry about the reilability over many years. If Janitrol is as good as other companys why dont you see it in many places.thanks

        1. Bob_Walker | Sep 16, 2001 11:41pm | #4

          *There was a good article in Consumer reports 2 or 3 summers ago which is probably still useful. Check it out.One man show? At least get some other bids, make sure this guy isn't too low!(A guy I know went into bankruptcy way underbidding a job for the club he belonged to. Apparently no one stopped to consider the consequences of going going with a "friend's" bid which was way under the uther 2 and ended up driving him into the ground!)

          1. Wayne_Law | Sep 17, 2001 11:24pm | #5

            *This is tough. I've been through it myself. You have to assume the role of the wise man, and can't appear emotional or political yourself. Here are a few thoughts.I'd recommend several bids. Then, if the church still wants to go with him, even though it's more money, they can do it with the full knowledge of how much extra they are spending in order to perform this "ministry" of helping someone out. As for one brand vs. another, they won't listen to anyone who they do not perceive to be an expert. So, if you want to persue this you need an outside opinion, such as data or reviews in published articles, or the opinion of someone like a building inspector, a service man who sells several brands and is not one of the bidders, etc. If you don't have data or an "expert" I don't think the discussion will be productive.It may be wiser to budget for one furnace a year for the next three years. Save the one pulled out for spare parts. That way, if one of the others gives out, it will be cheap to swap parts. Three furnaces at once will be a big budget hit. It also (you don't have to bring this up to people who won't listen to it anyway) gives the church a chance to evaluate the new furnace and the installation. Suppose the new one is noisy? How would you know until it's too late if you did all three?It might be unwise to make up (or appear to make up)special rules just for this guy, but any contractor should give the church a certificate of insurance. Your insurance policy may require that any contractors the church hires have insurance. If he isn't insured, you have good reason for not hiring him. If he causes any damage (gas leaks, etc.) is your church willing to be without coverage? If he gets hurt does the church want to cover it out of their policy? Is a license required in your area? Will the building inspector accept his work? If you propose these rules, of course they would have to apply to anyone you consider.The other wise move is to obtain support before the meeting. Talk to people privately in the weeks before a decision and at least plant enough doubt to get them to neutral. And if you can gain the support of someone respected by the people pushing for this guy, you would have an ally in winning him over.

          2. jon_ledebuhr | Sep 18, 2001 12:23am | #6

            *thanks wayne,the problem is that all the data in the world wont change there minds. They are only going with this guy because they are "trying to help him out". They dident see any other bids so they dont know what eles could be done.I would not be surprised if he was not Licensed or insured either.the main problem is that all of the board members know very little if nothing about furnaces,or construction.There doing this as a good-will gesture, granted a very expensive one($16,000).

          3. Wayne_Law | Sep 18, 2001 11:34pm | #7

            *I see you're in a tough one. I will pray for you and your church, that the board will make a decision that's best for the church, and for you, to have the wisdom when to speak and when to let it pass.Perhaps after things have long calmed down you all might want to consider changes to how the church is governed. In our church we have separate bodies for different types of decisions. Theological decisions are made by elders/deacons. Budgeting by a finance committee (with approval by the entire membership). Facilities decisions are made by a Building & Grounds committee. Church dinners by a fellowship committee. The point here is to appoint people with the right knowledge to the various committees. That way, people are only making decisions on things they know something about, and more people can serve, it's less work for everyone, and the results are better.

          4. Bob_Walker | Sep 19, 2001 02:12am | #8

            *Maybe you should remind them that a poorly installed or maintained furnace can produce deadly amounts of carbon monoxide.Question: if an oprganization's governing body negligently selects an unqualified worker to perform work that harms someone, could they be held liable?SHGLaw, you there? Interested in this question at this time?

  2. jon_ledebuhr | Sep 19, 2001 02:12am | #9

    *
    Our church Board just voted to have the 3 furnaces in our church replaced. The furnaces are 30years old and are Carriers. they are replacing because they think they might not make it through the winter.

    hears the problem. they want to replace them with Janitrol. They only got one bid and it was from the son-in-law of one of the members. I told some of the Board members that janitrol would not last nearly as long as other companys. I consider Jantrol "Junk". The price would be over $16,000 for the whole job.

    what do you guys think??? was this a wise purchase?? and how could i change there mind.

    thanks

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