This is rather long, I forgive you if you stop reading right now.. but I needed to think it through and any simple ideas would help.
.. so the architect recommends me as a builder for this good-sized addition; only after his first contractor from out of state drags his feet for a year and doesn’t come up with a quote.
As they explain it to me….the clients have been struggling for months and months (24). , yes they changed there minds a lot but the bottom line was that they asked the architect to design them what they could get for $175K. The first estimates from 2 different builders on his first design came back at $280 and $390k. He redesigned and came back with his recommended contractor and a quote of $250. (Of course I am finding all this out after the fact.) I came along and estimated $343. Still way more then these folks can afford. Of course there are circumstances here. The site is difficult and we are talking about very expensive little town in the Berkshires. Expensive property and expensive to build and live here.
Please pardon the length of this I’m trying to make long story shorter. This Architect has some great ideas. He is relatively new in town and it turns out, no real projects ‘completed’ under strictly his design. (It has become apparent that he worked for a big firm) After a great magazine article about him next to his own really nice new small house, in which he was quoted saying that good design doesn’t have to be expensive, houses can be built for as little as $80 psqft. Obviously he irked us local builders a bit because some of us would like to agree but it cant be done around here and he has a knack for making it look like its our fault. For some reason he took a liking to us and gave me a few referrals. Of the 2 houses I estimated for his clients I was always around 180 to 230. His clients always very unhappy and disappointed with me. No go. (third estimate I gently questioned clients expectations first and ended up saying no thanks).
This architects plans are terrible to read. The type of plans where he tries to put way to much on one page (and all in the same thickness of line) and save himself doing a few more elevations and sections. He also omits the tricky sections and also does not specify materials or fasteners and writes the long caveats making the entire project design the builders responsibility. There are no finish details. I got the job. I worked hard with them to come up with plan/schedule/money variation that they can get the essential site work and winterized project done right for the money they have. We ignored the architect because he just hasn’t helped them.. Then we filed for permit but needed the plans modified. Asked him he (took out the tower moved a room) billed them additional 19 hours.. The architect has his fee attached % to ‘cost to complete’ the job.
The client says no way after what we have been through they do not want to pay him $34-plus k for something they cannot afford. I cannot really depend on his drawings they omit critical things and when I call him on it he always says things like “well what would you typically do in that situation”. They compromised with him, based fee on the estimated $200K that they are going to spend for incomplete interior. They have paid him $18k already. Now that the project is in full swing he has offered to bill by the hour for job oversight, weekly meetings and make up the rest of his fee that way. (I think that work may have been in his original fee to begin with). I have talked to him maybe 3 times about the job because I had no need for his confusing answers and shoddy work. Now he shows up and rights the minutes for first meeting and bills them. The minutes basically point out some changes and basically proceed to further clear him of any responsibility. They don’t want him, I don’t need him. What does one do?
(p.s. The addition is under 35,000cft so legally he is not needed in state of MA.)
Arthur
Replies
sometimes the best answer for all purposes is to stay out of it. this is between the customer and the architect, and either inserting yourself or allowing yourself to be placed in the middle is to beg for problems.
You are the builder. You are not the mediator, babysitter, handholder, or keeper of the arch. If you get/stay involved, you will find yourself in trouble with at least one if not both. Keep building and tell Mr. HO that you cannot intervene with the arch, and he's gonna have to make and live with his own decisions. It's his issue, and he has to be a man and deal with it. You may want to help, but you will end up regretting it.
SHG
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
I appreciate what your saying and think your right accept that the relationship is still not cut and dry and since I am building his design, never really will if his design is incomplete. Until now I have tried to not let it be part of my problem accept that his minutes from that first meeting point responsibility at me for things that I had to decide really on his behalf. Somewhere between what your saying and DraftGuy is saying would be great. I will have to see what develops. Thanks for your comments (and reading the whole story.. :)Arthurhttp://www.thesmallbuildingcompany.com
my instinct is to folow along with Blue, but if I werre somehow in a position where i had to work under or parallel to him, I would use his own tricks. Architects are well schiooled in documentation. It is a legal buffer. SGH p[robably has an other name for it.But every time he writes memoes that are in error, write a memo pointing out what the errors are and copy him and the owners. To let his falsifications stand without challlenge implies that you agree should things ever end up in court.But do this in the most silvery, polite, honey dripping language you can think of. Consider it an assignment in English class and you want to impress to flaxen haired young teacher if you need motivation, but get it done. He will likely quit playing games or learn from you and do it right. And you will impress the owners with your veracity and persistence. Don't say things like "you are wrong about..." Say instead, "there appears to be an error on page..."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
i'll toss in my two pennies from the other side of the fence . . .
He sounds inexperienced. If he just worked for a large firm, it might mean he learned just enough to be dangerous. In a smaller practice you wear a lot of hats, in larger firms it's just the opposite. It sounds like he was a designer, but got enough exposure to the other parts to think he knows them. Unfortunately, you're finding this out the hard way.
It also sounds like he's had a lot of other people in the 'background' doing the support work on his projects, and now he's muddling his way through the dirty work. Depending on how you feel about it, you could sit down with him and be honest about what your expectations are. He could be a good source of future projects that are the kind you want your outfit associated with. And if he's new he'll need someone he can depend on. Or, and no less important, you may want to run screaming from his projects specifically so your name isn't dragged down with them. Hard call to judge.
As far as this addition goes however, maybe he's burned his bridges already. Most architects i know would bend over backwards to make things right. It sounds like the homeowner's baby, let them make the decision.
i'm glad you didn't immediately resort to the 'ego' cliche (sometimes it's inexperience, sometimes error, sometimes ego, or all of the above). i respect the fact that you're being diplomatic about it. There needs to be an equal partnership to make it all work. Unfortunately, that's not happening yet.
Edited 9/21/2006 1:35 pm ET by draftguy
I'd never talk to him again and explain to the clients that I'm saving them money in the long run.
blue
arthur... if there is an architect , then who wrote the contract ?
my bet is there is an AIA contract... did you sign it ... ?
if it is AIA i bet the relationships are all spelled out
i think what you are saying is that the design and construction documents are incomplete ? is this right ?
so how are they going to get completed ? by the architect ?
of course... if not then by whom ? what does your contract say.... who wrote it ?
you can't alter his design unless you assume the liability and you can't use his design as a starting point for an alternate design unless you are willing to run the risks of copyright infringement
the team is a triangle.. the three points are you , the builder
the Owner, supplying the money
and the architect , with the design.... some of the design is still in his head and has not been conveyed to the other two members of the team
your owner also wears another hat... the owner of the team... he is the one who is really in the driver's seat.. if he won't take the reigns ( sic ? )
you are just going to have to muddle thru
when the team is all going in the same direction, it's great..
but a team in conflict is going to make for a bad project
mikethere is an old contract that I have never seen. To date every job I have ever done with Architects has been a real team effort inspite of the horror stories I always hear and have seen. While I am aware of the scope and different AIA contracts I have only actually been a part of one or two. But I have never been privy to the contract between Archi and Client. Is it normal for the builder to be a part of that, especially if I arrive on the scene a year later ? I usually just end up asking at somepoint what the deal is, can I call them or not. Then when they visit I treat him/her as boss design present the issues and we usually all solve them as a team and with his/her approval or ideas. Since they didn't want to deal with him anymore when I showed up, I never called him to tell him I was using I-joists instead of having posts in the basement etc. He gave no foundation engineering or section of its connection to the house. I had to figure it out with my concrete sub. But they lost space in their walk out basement because they could not afford the extra work that would be needed to give the floor plan he thought down there.. I did not call him about that either. Is that really the case what you say about altering his design? If he has been paid for the design is the owner not free to do with it as they want on that particular project?http://www.thesmallbuildingcompany.com
the owner can build from it or not.. but if you alter it ( deviate from the plan ) you assume some of the liability
what i am really looking for is YOUR contract.. who wrote it ?.. usually if there is an architect involved , they write the contract between the Owner & the builder, and the Owner & Builder sign it
it's kind of unusual for an architect to not be involved in the contract if the Owner paid the architect
so.. what does YOUR contract say ? anything about the duties , responsibilities, relationships ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Because they expressed no interest in dealing with the Architect when I came and because they did not offer explanation of thier contract with him I used my regular contract for residential renovation. It makes no mention of the Architect other then referencing his plans to be used..but does spell out HO and builder responsibilities. This is a real education for me. I really appreciate the input from you all. Don K as well. I like the reference to trusting your gut which is basically how I do business. You have made me realize that I do have more connections to this guy then I wanted and maybe I should have been more attentive to this to begin with. He just sort of pushed his way back into their lives and they resent him.Don, do I need to be concerned. about the fact that I resolved issues without consulting him? Can I just start a paper trail now.. list these things and why I did them and list every single inconsistency in the prints from now on for the record? and / or do I have to have his approval on each one? Of course I guess this ties into his contract which I know nothing about. I am amazed how much building I have been able to do without really getting into contracts with Architects on them. He mentioned to the client that he needs to be on the new contract we are going to draw up. The original one is 8 months old and we only started last month. The client called me up asking why? I said I wasn't sure exactly. This poor woman is intimidated by him I think.. and thats why I think I am trying to find a solution that I might normally try avoid. She called me up this evening asking could I modify the revisions for town files and she is going to tell him on Monday, that they do not need his services anymore. (I stalled.) so the plot thickens... help!thankshttp://www.thesmallbuildingcompany.com
Ovolo - let me try to answer your questions, but read what the others say too. I don't claim to have all the answers by any means.
- do I need to be concerned about the fact that I resolved issues without consulting him? Not really. That's more a function of what the relationship is. If you don't involve him, it may limit his liability - but this is important if anyone questions it and if you did it wrong.
Can I just start a paper trail now.. Absolutely. It can be short too. "This will cover the situation as it exists now. As future problems become evident, we will contact your office directly if the owner instructs us to do so."
list these things and why I did them and list every single inconsistency in the prints from now on for the record? Yes, and no. I wouldn't detail every single thing, especially if there are a bunch. I would say something like, "There were numerous areas where the drawings were conflicted, incomplete or inaccurate. Some of the most significant ones were ..." Like I said earlier, given the politics, I wouldn't necessarily be looking to start a pizzing match. Delivery can mean a bunch. If it's written well, you can call him an idiot and he'll be happy to hear it.
and / or do I have to have his approval on each one? Don't necessarily need his approval. That's more of a liability issue. It doesn't sound like litigation is expected, so that's one benefit. If the building department is happy, that's another one . Make sure you explain to the client that if there are (building dept. or construction) issues later, they may have to spring for another design professional for some approvals. Of course I guess this ties into his contract which I know nothing about. That's mostly between him and the owner. I don't know of many localities that insist the parties go forward if they don't get along. Might be worth the ho investigating, or you running past your lawyer.
I am amazed how much building I have been able to do without really getting into contracts with Architects on them. Could be good or bad or a reflection of the type and size of work you do. Get used to it. Bigger projects are likely to have stamped drawings and while not perfect, in many cases, you and the archi need to be able to make it work. This could be on the job training for you.
He mentioned to the client that he needs to be on the new contract we are going to draw up. One word - NOT. The original one is 8 months old and we only started last month. The client called me up asking why? I said I wasn't sure exactly. Honest. This poor woman is intimidated by him I think.. and thats why I think I am trying to find a solution that I might normally try avoid. I have no idea what your skills are. Your job is to get the place built. And theoretically, so is his. But it sounds like he may be getting all the gravy and half the meat on the job, leaving you with dry bread. Be careful about letting her get you into the middle of this. You may want the job, but at the price of making an enemy? She could turn on you too.
Shoot me a private e-mail if you would like. I'm trying to get an apt ready for next week, but will find some time to answer you. (I only have the bathrooms, heat, kitchen and Hot Water heater to do.)
BTW - if you want to make sure that a poster actually sees what you wrote, you need to address it to them individually. Posting it to Mike only got it to Mike. i happened to be following the thread and saw my name mentioned.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Ovolo-
To follow up on Mike's concerns, make sure that your contract with the owners is clear, particularly as it outlines each party's responsibilities. It may be that the architect's problems are a result of a poor understanding of the mutual responsibilities of the design contract.
While there is probably nothing that you can do about the homeowner and architect's conflict except for ducking, you can make sure that a similar problem does not arise in your own work. The fact that the homeowner is unable to deal forcefully in one conflict indicates that the homeowner may behave similarly with you. It is up to you to prevent this from happening, mainly by soliciting the homeowners input and actively listening to what they have to say. Remember that you will be the last one paid and you need to make sure that there is money left for that last check. Don't do what this architect seems to be doing, pushing for more work and a larger project whether that is in the interest of the client or not.
Very good points made by all. The most important to me is draftguy's take on schooling the poor fella. I would go into his office and sit down with him. Tell him what you have told us and don't candy-coat it. Maybe show him some of his competitor's drawings where the density is right and the needed details are shown. You're in a small town, and so is he, in a newly built house. He's not going anywhere and neither are you (right?) so I would hammer things out sooner than later. He might actually appreciate it.
Ovolo-
You seem concerned about these minutes. Do what Piffen said - go back over the minutes and point out the "errors". I represented a lot of them, and those minutes take on a life of their own, years after the fact.
You need to stand up for yourself. Not to be nasty, but if there are problems and errors, document them. "I said, he said" is not a good way to start. It need not be in a letter that the owner sees, but it needs to be in a letter (or e-mail) and you should have some proof of sending it (proof of mailing costs about 65 cents or so at the PO and personal delivery costs zip). You can say lots of nesty things in a nice way and get away with it if you do it carefully and nicely. See, those English classes were good for something.
Last thought, is if you feel that he's over his head, walk now. Don't jeopardize your reputation based on poor plans. There's another thread around here about trusting your gut. Read that one, at least twice.
Don K. (Attorney - Builder )
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
“As they explain it to me....the clients have been struggling for months and months (24). , yes they changed there minds a lot but the bottom line was that they asked the architect to design them what they could get for $175K. This Architect has some great ideas. He is relatively new in town and it turns out, no real projects 'completed' under strictly his design.â€
I would have questioned his abilities from the start. He should have been able to give his client an estimate of the building by the fact that he is designing a building for a total cost they wanted.
All new architects wants to make a big name for themselves. Whenever anyone asks me for the name of an architect, I name some who are well established and are not on an ego trip to make a name for themselves but rather design a building with the client in mind.
“This architects plans are terrible to read. He also omits the tricky sections and also does not specify materials or fasteners and writes the long caveats making the entire project design the builders responsibility. The architect has his fee attached % to 'cost to complete' the job.â€
Sounds like he likes money, lacks the expertise needed to do a good job, and quite possibly does not know what the building requirements are in the area. That may be the reason why the out of town contractor was “dragging his feet.â€
“The client says no way after what we have been through they do not want to pay him $34-plus k for something they cannot afford. I cannot really depend on his drawings they omit critical things and when I call him on it he always says things like "well what would you typically do in that situation".â€
My first thought when reading this was is that the architect is “Dumb as a box of rocks.†Also do you not have an approved set of plans which are approved by the city planning department. If I did not see that big stamp which states that they are an approved set of plans I would not even consider giving a bid or estimate.
Ethically I think this guy is way out of line.
Everyone should read the article at http://www.fminet.com/global/Articles/EthicalPracticeSurvey.pdf
In order to protect your interests in this job, you need to remove him from any and all transactions as soon as possible. Clearly, he is lazy and incompetent from your description, and his work does not benefit you or your client.
Removing him as a the contact person makes you the contact person in the eyes of the homeowners, and serves your business best in the long run.
I am hearing more and more horrier stories about architects these days. Most think the house YOU are building is THEIR personal baby, and let the OWNER be damned. The last story I heard from a distant friend of mine, included an architect ESTIMATE to build "HIS" house to be $350,000. Actual cost, $750,000. When I talk to the friend about his project he constantly said "the architect said, and teh architect wanted . . ." So I suppose this was partly the owners fault in not laying down the law, but 100% plus cost over run?
I think architects like the art and don't have a clue about the science. Sure, not all, but this fits most of the stories I hear.
Many of these companies are just paper pushers. The days of having someone start at the bottom and learn a trade are gone at least for now. I think when the economy go down some it will help the situation. Where I lived in CA in 1980 about 75% of the contractors wither quit or left town. The good people were left and doing better than ever. We no longer had to contend with the slick talkers. Too many people today shop on price alone and get less than they pay for and do not listen to those who really know. Like they say when it is to good to be true it usually is.
It's so awesome to come here and read blanket condemnations of a profession.
That's why the internet is free... at least you didn't pay for those comments.
Sometime when you get a chance, read the survey at http://www.fminet.com/global/Articles/EthicalPracticeSurvey.pdf
i took a quick look at that survey.The only two references i could find referring to designers/architects was a one-sided personal response about architects getting the 'owners to like them over everyone else,' and something about bid-shopping.i can only respond from my own experience, but as far as the first comment, archs often have an established relationship with the owner long before the construction process begins. That's not an excuse to give the cold shoulder, but i could see how it might seem that way to someone new entering the picture. And there are designers who try to cover their failures by picking sides, sure. But i don't see this as being endemic in the profession. i try to put a lot of effort into being as realistic with budgets as possible, because i hate looking stupid in the end. i also hate reworking a design, especially if it's due to my own ineptitude. Fear of failure does wonders. And i depend on the builder to keep me from my own faults.As far as bid-shopping, that'll only take you so far before it bites you. If i find someone i feel good about and trust i try to treat them like gold, regardless if they're not always the lowest price. But if a client wants a lower price, sometimes they shop around. I try to stay out of it if this happens. But most projects i've worked on had strict rules about this, and if a bid comes in over a certain percentage it's the architect who eats it by redesigning the project . . . for free.
You mean you don't "think the house THEY are building is YOUR personal baby, and let the OWNER be damned?" You must be the exception. <G>
mom always said i was special :D
Your mom must be a smart lady. What about the name of that school?
That survey was done across the board of construction management people. Other materials I read have shown that there are architects who are unethical that will design things that does not meet the needs of the owner.FMI is a construction consulting firm and I thought it would be good for people to read the results of the survey and be aware of what is really happening. I think it was in 2005 that the government made it a law for a company to have a code of ethics. If the construction industry does not police itself. The government will and make work for all of us. It will cost us more money to do business and make it more difficult for us.
Speaking of blanket statements, you take the cake! I clearly was relying personal observations and made plenty of cavates. Nothing blanket about it. You on the onther hand just malign and twist my post with a flat out statement. Look in the mirror. Now if you have glowing archy stories, by all means post them. Unlike you, I have an open mind about these things and am confident that someone has a great story. As for me, I hear NEARLY nothing but problems.
You would agree that for an archy to miss an estimate by over 100% is a tiny problem, NO?
"Most think the house YOU are building is THEIR personal baby, and let the OWNER be damned."That's not a blanket condemnation? Sorry, my bad.
So Cloud most is the same as ALL?
What public grade school did you attend. I will be sure I don't send any children there if you are so kind as to let me know which school to avoid. Thanks for the information in advance.
Ignore the urge to feed the troll.You can hear happiness staggering on down the street
I can't imagine what you mean... :)
Quote from my original post
"Sure, NOT ALLl, but this fits MOST of the stories I hear."
NOT ALL is blanket?
MOST is the same a ALL?
Stories I hear?
Talk to a lawyer.
I believe that under the new copyright laws, if you build it, the archy can sue you.
"I believe that under the new copyright laws, if you build it, the archy can sue you"The homeowner already has a license to build that one house. Now if he tries to duplicate it in a another place, etc. Or if it makes up plans from from his revised plans then the the copyright laws would be involved.
If the HO pays an archy to design a house for the HOs the HOs own the copywright. Or so I was told by my archy.
If the HOs haven't yet paid the archy he still owns the copyright.
Edited 9/25/2006 1:22 pm ET by john7g
That's not the case. Well, it may be the case that he told you that, but it's not the standard case that the copyright transfers at payment. I retain the copyrights on all my designs.
Interesting. You got me thinking if maybe my memory was skewed but I do remember him offering the velums if I felt so inclined to take them. After he explained his policy of not using individuals prints for any other project except maybe to show to prospective clients I felt they were best left in his hands. May be why I'm a repeat customer...
Hey, here in the Houston area you can get this 3467 sq ft house for $82 / sq ft.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
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