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When I talked to a lawyer in Oregon about possibility of a suit against a GC for negligence he gave me the following example, (this actually happened according to him) worker hired to climb a radio tower or some such tower is told by foreman to get his a** up there and get to work. Worker doesn’t particularly like the idea of climbing 80 foot tower without a safety harness. Tells his foreman that there are no harnesses on site. Foreman say get up the tower or you’re fired. Worker then climbs tower and unfortunately falls from there to ground, is killed. Widow tries to sure GC for neglect. What he told me was that the GC could not be sued because of the laws of state say that if you’re carrying Workers Comp that’s all you’re going to get. Very difficult to collect, this case was going to the supreme court in Oregon but it didn’t look good for the widow. I’m not an attorney but this threw a whole new light on what I have been led to believe. It would seem that if you’re carrying WC then that’s all you need even if you’re threatened with the lose of you’re job. In hindsight I’m sure this worker would rather have quit than go up the tower without safety belt.
I was smarting from breaking a couple of ribs from falling from some defective step-up that GC provided and I wasn’t going to get anything more than medical and around 55% of wages. Maybe another lawyer would have a differant example, however I’ve heard laws are still in favor of GC
‘s as long as they have Workers Comp.
MRL
Replies
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Today our helper on our framing crew fell throuh the second floor stair well opening..falling straight through the first floor opening and landing in the basement. About 18 feet. LAid there for about 5 minutes and then got up and was fine. No friggen sh*t!
*Have to agree with FredL. If you doubt him read the article "After the Fall" in the Dec.98 issue of Remodeling Magazine. Similar accident except fatal result's. OSHA, lawyers, insurance companies a real eye opener,get a copy it's worth reading.
*Yep, if I'm ever hurt on one of my jobs, I feel blessed it was me and not an employee.
*The article I mentioned is still posted on the remodeling website. @http://remodeling.hw.net/prosonly/1998/dec/covstry/ Take a couple of minutes to read it, I'd be interested in your reaction.
*Excellent article. Im going to print it out and bring it to my boss. You guys seemed to be under the impression its my crew? No.. Im just the carpenter. Thanks
*'Flash,Who's the helper's direct supervisor... who is he helping? OSHA will roast the Business Owner, the General Contractor, and the direct supervisor on the site. The Owner for having a unskilled individual, on a unsafe site, without adequate supervision; ditto for the GC, and the onsite "supervisor" as being better trained (experienced), and not preventing the injury/incident. (Hot and fresh from the State o' Maine, Fed. OSHA field office contractor seminar.) Fines range up to $7000 per violation. At least (three) evident from your story.1) Fall protection in a unguarded stairwell,2) Training, 3) Supervison
*The (1) sounds true -- but can you assume the latter two? Some accidents are still your own fault, right? Am I naive?
*George....I dont doubt what your saying is true...but it sounds very unreasonable. We didnt have fall protection (but do now) but training and supervision? Come on..this is a construction site. How do you train someone? You hire them and give the various tasks to do. Thats how you train them. You dont put them through any formal training class do you? Although OSHA probably expects you to it just doesnt happen in the real world. And for supervision? How do you supervise your laborer? He was putting in joist hangers...a one man job. Doesnt require a baby sitter. No supervision required. Im not flaming you or anything. I assume you agree with me that its a little unreasonable to train and supervise to the extent OSHA may want you to? And for Fred..you got to be kidding me calling me the lucky one...the worst that could have happened to me (if it was my business) was a lawsuit. He could have been killed. [Off the cuff] Id call him the lucky one. later!
*Yup! He could have been killed, then his wife's lawyers would have killed you (as from the sounds of it you were his supervisor) - probably without even getting to court. If he had worked for me, once he got up I would have "killed" him for being so careless.Luck is all in the eye of the perceiver!Cheers
*When I talked to a lawyer in Oregon about possibility of a suit against a GC for negligence he gave me the following example, (this actually happened according to him) worker hired to climb a radio tower or some such tower is told by foreman to get his a** up there and get to work. Worker doesn’t particularly like the idea of climbing 80 foot tower without a safety harness. Tells his foreman that there are no harnesses on site. Foreman say get up the tower or you’re fired. Worker then climbs tower and unfortunately falls from there to ground, is killed. Widow tries to sure GC for neglect. What he told me was that the GC could not be sued because of the laws of state say that if you’re carrying Workers Comp that’s all you’re going to get. Very difficult to collect, this case was going to the supreme court in Oregon but it didn’t look good for the widow. I’m not an attorney but this threw a whole new light on what I have been led to believe. It would seem that if you’re carrying WC then that’s all you need even if you’re threatened with the lose of you’re job. In hindsight I’m sure this worker would rather have quit than go up the tower without safety belt. I was smarting from breaking a couple of ribs from falling from some defective step-up that GC provided and I wasn’t going to get anything more than medical and around 55% of wages. Maybe another lawyer would have a differant example, however I've heard laws are still in favor of GC's as long as they have Workers Comp. MRL
*speaking of lawyers, if a female barrister loses her briefs, does that make her a solicitor??
*Worker's comp is pre-emptive in certain cases. If I were a lawyer (ha), I would term the GC's behavior reckless or worse -- beyond negligence, total indifference to worker safety -- which I think would take the case out of the statute. But these laws vary from state to state and some are quite restrictive. There are some interesting constituional questions where the state denies a plaintiff an effective remedy ... imagine if they prohibited such lawsuits altogether even without worker's comp -- or a more realistic example proposed often and recently, gutted product defect liability of manufacturers for, say, electric drills that shock you when you sweat too much (an insulation defect that is the subject of a current DeWalt/B&D recall of electric screwdrivers, including mine, that I bet few have heard of) -- but at the moment what happens depends a lot on the quirks of state law.
*You've obviously never dealt with OSHA. They actually fined me once for not supplying workers with haz-mat info on cedar siding!Pete Draganic
*Andrew, naive.
*Andrew? A laywer putting forth the argument that people can actually be responsible for their own actions? Are you feeling OK? Not on medication, are you? Too much Guinness?
*'Flash, no... I won't write anything resembling a support for your position against OSHA... I've got my new issue of FHB with Breaktime excerpts in print. Repeat after me: OSHA is our Friend... keep it up and have some of the cool-aid dude.(Sorry Joe... you'll see why)Realistically, here's how it goes: Fall protection, Ground Fault Protection, Fire Extinguishers, First Aid Kits, Saw Guards if ripping or crosscutting only, Trench Boxes, Hardhats, Masks if applicable, Safety Fuel Cans, Safety Waste Cans... all are on the list as HOT buttons.Training: Orientation for new employees. Orientation for each worksite. "Follow me, Fire extinguisher here, watch your step there, first aid kit here, all eating will be done here away from the debris, watch you head here, wear a mask if you're helping sand, use the sawguard and pushsticks, etc...Document it.Supervision: for example: "Darryl, get the six foot ladder for that... you're over reaching with the four. And put a piece of plywood down over the hole next to you. Cut the 2x4x8s into 14 1/2 inch blocking, wear the safety glasses... do you know how the chopsaw works?"So 'Flash, there's the nickle tour of OSHA. Pass the cup...
*No, Popular!
*Pete you scoundrel! No MSDS sheet for that toxic material! Oooof!
*toxic -- to humans? I guess you shouldn't eat it ... if you're a bug?Stupidity like this is hard to beat. Oh wait, there's the FAA...
*Well guys, this is one reason insurance is a good thing.Yes, it can be your fault. People hear the stories about so-and-so cleaning up and are pretty disappointed when they try to cash in themselves. I've read many, many cases where the plaintiff loses. One of my favs is where the guy sued for product defect after he tried to use his lawnmower to trim the hedge. See, he grabbed the housing on each side and... not sure how many fingers this cost, but he didn't need any to add up his winnings. Or the guy who lost an eye in a rubberband fight at the office (BIG rubber bands) who didn't get worker's comp because, it was decided, the injury was not within the scope of his duties...
*Screw osha! Just work safely. No matter how hard you try, osha can put you out of business. If you are worried about being put out of business, think of how nice it will be when you are working for someone else.Trip getting out of the truck, slip on the mud, and never have to work again! And all the wc money will be tax free!Screw osha, another governmental leech on society!Blue
*Off on a tangent...FAA recently instituted a new "ticket" writing campaign for citing infractions. Used to be they nailed you, then you got a hearing. Guilt or innocence was concluded. Now, they write a ticket, if you don't respond in 10 days, you're guilty. If you respond, they may give you a hearing.Anyhows...A cargo pilot has a coronay as he's landing and dies. The plane goes off the side of the runway. Nothing big in damage, etc. The FAA writes him up, tries to fine him, etc. Company and family write and call..."he's dead", they say. Regardless, FAA won't drop the charges, seeks cash from his family. An actual quote from an FAA official..."If he doesn't pay, he'll never set foot in a cockpit again." Duh...
*No claim against the estate. This is a pseudo-criminal penalty... At least they're not seeking a prison term!The FAA dumb, dumb, dumb. They're probably tearing up my license this minute...
*b WOWWhaddaforum!!!Free building &/or 'boogerin' advice, philoshical meanderings, Jack's stream (of uncociousness), all the napalm you could ever ask for. . . and now b freelegal opinions. . . one size fits all. .. we could put the rest of the net outa businesss here. . . has Taunton been bought up by Bill G.??? Which reminds meb How high is a mouse when it flies??
*After just starting a job in Pa that's goverment run.(Va Hospital) let's take a look at what I have to deal with on a daily basic.VA's own Q/A people who are clueless on everday construction work. A Inspecter thought that he could pull himself up into the ceiling by using the ceiling grid.Army Corp of Engeneers These are the people who can't make it in the real world and get hired by the goverment. Thursday a ACE inspecter asked me if I had a safty material sheet for nails on site????????????????????????????????????The Osha inspecter (on site all the time) is checking to see if our safty glasses are a apporved type for use. His list was last updated in 1989. "Gee guy see this little mark that it meet's all.........."and people ask me why it cost's so much to build now??????????
*b My luckest guy story is a laborer who was stacking plywood on a roof of a three story building. You guessed it....a wind gust picked him up and sailed him across a busy street. Not a scrach on him but a strange order and a stain on his jeans........ b and yes it's a true story
*Need I say again and again....sign me blue too,Near the stream, J
*bill,Holy cr*p my pants batman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Near the stream, filing no flight plans today,J
*If she's hot....oh baby!!!!Near the stream,J
*Terminate tangent. We're losing Patrick.
*Similar thing happened to a buddy, on top of a flatop commercial building. Wind caught him, went for a sail, if he dropped the plywwod it was going down on his crew. Bailed out just before he went over the edge of the building. by the way, here in Nova Scotia, even a good simple wc claim can get backed up for three or four years (by which time you've probably lost your house). The latest thing in the OHSA line, i forget the term, but the concept is 'shared responsibility'.That is, if i am on the same site and I even have an inkling that you, who I don't know from Adam, are not working safely, I am on the hook if I don't stop you. This concept may even reach back to the instructor in trade school who was responsible for teaching safe practice. Ten years later someone screws up, forgets what they are taught, who will take the fall? just guess.
*No construction site can be made either idiot or accident-proof. Despite the best of intentions, injuries can and will occur. To stave off, or at least minimize legal damages, consider a "Read Me" file. It's a three-ring binder with sections on various safety issues. One section contains sheets for "toxic" materials such as Pete's evil cedar siding, another section for basic site safety for stair openings and scaffolding, etc, another for tool safety.Have a sign-off page inside the front cover, and have the crew initial off either weekly or monthly indicating they are familiar with the contents. No initials, no paycheck. Safety sheets for the job at hand can be moved to the front section if desired.Just an idea. As the crew does the mandatory sign-off over coffee and donuts, who knows, someone may actually learn something new.It can be fluff, or it can be taken seriously. In an investigation, though, it may minimize the wrath of OSHA.
*Pattrick:Answer to your question: How high is a mouse when it flies? As high as your ceiling when you throw the mouse. Applies to both computer and animal mice. Am I close?Bill:An MSDS for nails. Hmmm. In the autobody industry we were warned by firms that specilize in OSHA compliance to make sure we had MSDS on file for copier toner, white-out, anything we sanded, like the primer on fenders. Now the rules say an MSDS available by electronic reproduction ( FAX Machines) is accecptable, as long as employees have acces to the FAX service. Saftey-Kleen has this service for about $300.00 a year. Now you need a laptop to get these faxes to your job site. Get it, now you have a reason to get a laptop for the job site, so you can also check into Breaktime while the employees are not downloading MSDS sheets.Good luck in PA,Frank
*Mongo, exactamundo! Must be the snacks.
*Bill, as the other "Bill" would say: "Ah feel your pain." (It works better with an Arkansas accent.)Have a cigar... it's the Gov't way. (Definite references to Oval Office activities...)
*FrankDefinitely warm, the trajectory is an important detail. . . and speaking of warm . . . it's been 52F during the last two days in south eastern Ontario. . . gollee, and not yet Easter (course E's a liddle late this year)!
*Mongo, isn't it possible/probable that the guys will get their fingers pinched in the binders?Another lawsuit awaitin'!Blue
*Well, Mongo is definately onto something here. F'rinstance: if you don't have a current IIPP (Injury and Illness Prevention Program) ON SITE! you will be in violation of some absurd OSHA reg.Another thing, awhile back I took some const. management courses at the univ. Had an OSHA inspector come in a couple of times to talk. I distinctly remember him saying that CAL-OSHA had over 4K rules/regs. Further, he said to be in compliance with some meant you were in violation of others. I asked him how we could be expected to know all the regs. He responded by saying even he isn't familiar with much more than 100 or so.It's a money grab. Headen' for the stream.
*Andrew, my sweet, just how long have you been practicing law? ; ) "Fault" can be determined (honestly and dishonestly) many, many ways. And you will find that this little truism is what will keep you in Estwings and nails! Fondly, Patty