OK, the structural engineer just described to me what I would have to do if I want to knock down an 8′ foot section of a bearing wall in my apartment. (The apartment is on the top floor (the 4th) of an old residential brick building.)
This is what his suggestion entails:
1. remove the 8′ section of wall (he says it’s OK to do it during the summer, because most of the capacity of the structure is there to take the load of snow on the roof.)
2. rip up the ceiling and the hardwood floor along where the 8′ segment of wall used to be.
3. notch the joists along where the wall used to be to accomodate a steel beam; this beam’s job is to spread the load that will be transmitted to it by the new structure above (I suppose it will be a T-beam, with the web inserted into the notches made into the joists); this is all assuming that his deduction, based on what he saw in the exposed structure in the basement, that the joists are 2″x8″ is correct; if they turn out to be 2″x6″ we’re hosed.
4. the steel beam mentioned in [3] is supposed to have welded along its top surface 2 U-brackets, one at each end of the beam, to accept 4″x4″ wood columns; the brackets have bolt holes in them so the wood columns can be bolted to the steel beam.
5. a second steel beam along the top spans the 8′ opening supported by the two 4″x4″ columns, and supports the roof.
6. to this we have to add the cost of all the materials, and of bringing those steel beams up to the 4th floor, and patching up the ceiling, hardwood floors, and walls around the 4″x4″ columns and the overhead beam.
My totally uninformed guess is that the whole shebang (materials and labor) will cost at least $30K, which would be more than I’m willing to spend. The engineer will charge me $700 for designing the structural details (size the beams, etc.), but if the project is going to be $30K or more to build, I’d just as soon scrap the whole thing and keep my $700…
So I would love to get the informed guesses on the total cost of a project like this from those with more building experience than I have. Just ballpark figures would be a great help.
Thanks,
-Irv
Replies
Irv-
Not really getting the full picture of what's going on there, and what needs to be done, but at first glance I'd say $30k is a bit high. Again, one would need photos, sketches, beam sizes, etc., to get a more accurate guesstimate, but overall, you'd be suprised how much work you can get done for $30k.
Bob
Depends whether you are in rural Arkansas or downtown Boston but 30K sounds on the high end of things
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm no estimator, contractor, office person who inserts floppy disk things into computors for prices, only a humble carpenter, but I have observed over the years that when $ has to be saved one of the first things to go is steel. Try to get the engineer dude to give you a wood option. Eight feet aint that long. (maybe a little longer if the finished hole is 'spose to be 8')Two- three- four- ml's bolted together is way cheaper. Easier to get up there. You might need a crane if this steel member is heavy enough. Got room for it? Muti-family, I don't know but you might also have to spray some insulation on it.
"I have observed over the years that when $ has to be saved one of the first things to go is steel."
You're kidding there right? $wise, steel is (strength/cost) just about the cheapest mtrl. out there. Though it does depend on the load/span obviously.
Jon
If I understand the description, this retro is a unique design and steel is the only way to accomplish it. I agree that steel is cheaper than wood but wood is easier to work with so the labor can go up with hybridizing steel into it.
In any case, the restoration of the finished surfaces will be the larger part of the cost on this project, from my point of view. This is the greater variable and the thing that is hard to estimate from here.
There are so many parts of a project like this where one thing can lead to another and where the customers demands and sense of style can vary costs dramatically. This job could be done for anywhere from 15K up to 75K - believe me, I've seen it happen - "As long as you're here...".
Excellence is its own reward!
"I agree that steel is cheaper than wood but wood is easier to work with so the labor can go up with hybridizing steel into it."
Piffin,
I agree, labor costs can potentially go way up when using steel, but not necessarily. That may have as much to do with the people working with it not having the right tools, equipment and experience. Working with it is NOT like working with wood. But you know that.
On the other hand, for whatever reason, personally, I think it is not used enough, especially in renovations. Any thoughts?
Jon
I guess that I've lived in places where asteel just wasn't thought of and other places where it was used too much.
In thoise mtns of Colorado yopu would think that wood would be first choice and thought with all those trees around and mills, but there is a heavey influence from the mining industry. Most carpenters out there have spent at least a little time building forms and setting structure in the drifts and tunnels with steel.
I guess that it comes down to what you are familiar with, except for when it gets to special situations.
I'ver used several when depth is a consideration. Usually when taking out walls or posts..
Excellence is its own reward!
I wouldn't know about the prices/ft, but doesn't wood grow on tree's ? *grin*.
Just look around you, and the next job you see put together with engineered lumber, you've got to ask yourself now just why didn't they use steel? isn't it cheaper? Like I said , I constanly see changes to wood, if wood will do.
Another thing maybe just in this area, at least one county won't inspect structural steel, probably because their personnel don't know what they are looking at, ( they just don't do it) If so ,call your PE to go to city hall, pick up the forms,(no faxes) visit the site,look at it, put his little stamp on it( I betcha he burns up half a day @ what? $80 / hour) . cha ching...... add that to your estimate.....lets see 4 x $80 = $320 ..I bet that's the material cost of the wood beam.
Red,
When I replaced a a load bearing wall in my house (26') I checked out all my options. Engineered lumber would have been ~18" deep and had to be tripled. Mtrl cost ~$1200. I was able to buy a 10W26 I-beam for $280 that had 2.5x the strength, and obviously only 9.75 deep. By going that route, I was able to cantilever it 4', opening up a host of new floor plan possibilities not available with wood.
You say that,
"maybe just in this area, at least one county won't inspect structural steel, probably because their personnel don't know what they are looking at,"
How hard is it to pull out some span charts. You don't need to be an engineer to calculate that stuff. It's simple arithmetic. $ for $, using steel for longer spans is often, IMO, the most cost effective solution if it is easily available.
I'm posting a pic of the completed job.
I agree, cost effective for the 26'. This guy is only doing 8-9'. The welding (custom connectors he mentioned) cha...ching, I'm probably wrong here but the apartment building he mentioned (muti-family), the city might want some kind of fire stuff sprayed on it cha cha cha cha ching a ling... not a diy-er project.
Nice job on the oak.
"cha cha cha cha ching a ling... not a diy-er project."
Red,
Yes, not the typical DIY, but there are some out there who do take on challenges, and attempt to work to standards higher than the pro's. For an 8'-9' span, steel still seems like it could be optimal. As a DIY, it would probably take me ~day and cost less than $200 in mtrls. Maybe I should be a "pro" remodeler. LOL
I guess my point was that in general, steel is a very cost effective option for load bearing beams, and should not cost much to integrate IF the renovator has the proper tools and experience.
On the other hand, for anyone with nil experience, Yeah, go with wood.
BTW, Thanks for the comment on my oak covered I-beam. Incidentally, is is covered in solid boxed 3/4" red oak, bonded to the bottom of the I-beam with a bed of RTV silicone. The bottom corners were beveled in such a way as so that the glue line is hidden. Every one who sees them (there are two beams) thinks that they are solid beams.
Jon
I'm amazed that a welder isn't standard on all job sites... i have 3 and a plasma cutter and 3 sets of torches on the job i'm on now... (rehab'b a mississippi river view warehouse into loft apts...) but i love steel... if you cut it short... weld it back up and start over... it's green ... one old buick makes alot of steel studs... and i use alot of used steel.... I tend to tell the engineer what i have and will it work for what i'm do'n... if it will.... he draws it up... new steel is maybe 20-30cents a lb... used it's 2-3 cents... i put'n in 12 16' steel beams now that would have cost me maybe 3k (with the brackets) I got em for free or a little trade out... we have about 20 balconys to build on site... i'm still round'n up material for those...
but back to the question... I'd guess if you went to a small metal fab shop... showed em what was up and if they do install work... they jump on all the structural stuff and be happy walk'n out with 3k .... $200 if they are crackheads but then you'd be missing all ur stuff but thats another deal...
pony
i started out with nothing.... and still have most of it left
A slightly better pic
First, let me thank you all *very much* for your replies. Your perspective is very valuable. Also, let me apologize for not replying sooner.
As to the project's location: Parking Hell, AKA Boston, MA.
I didn't get to ask the structural engineer why steel for the lower beam and not wood. He'll be on vacation for the next 2 weeks, so I can only speculate until then. The purpose of this beam is to take the two point loads at each end and spread them as evenly as possible over the length of 2"x4"-stud wall below. Maybe steel, being stiffer, is better at load-spreading than wood?
To be fair, he did not specify steel for the top beam; for all I know it could be wood.
I am glad to learn that I may have overestimated the cost...
-Irv
"Maybe steel, being stiffer, is better at load-spreading than wood? "
That's it. With wood flexing more, the greatest load would be transfered to the two joists nearest the ends of the insert beam where the pockets catch the posts and load from above. .
Excellence is its own reward!
First question is where are you?
Second question is does your proposal allow for the possibility of an exposed beam below the ceiling, albeit nicely boxed and finished as appropriate?
Third question: you're on the top floor of a 4-storey walk-up; is this a typical railroad flat, circa late 1800s, NYC style? if so, your floor joists are probably 2x10 brutes (unplaned, full or even over-sized); the rafters in the ceiling might be 12s.
I would say, $30k just for the work you talked about seems awfully high. I can almost build a basic one-bedroom bungalow for that (my cost). But the answer to question #1 has a lot of bearing on the final bill.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I have a friend whose brother's son-in-law's gardener just had the identical thing done for less than half that price.
The contractor took his whole family to DQ for dinner, besides.
; )
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
LOL
as was the case with many of the replies to your query, my first question would be, Where are you located?
I am a framing contractor in an area with a population of approx. 150K, and a moderate cost of living. Having had a little experience in removing bearing walls, i will agree with the other respondents in saying that $30K seems excessive. If i am visualizing your situation correctly, it sounds like a 3-5 day job (structural portion, not finishing) for a qualified contractor. Of course, there are costs involved in such a project other than just time and materials. Equip. rental, addit. ins.,etc. Still, i think your projection is high.
Also, unless prices are drastically different in your part of the country, steel is your best bet. I have found engineered lumber to be double or triple in price compared to steel.
-Carpentrydude