Hope you guys can help here. I’m building, by myself, a FIREROCK fireplace. For a little history on the construction you can look at this link to the Johnbrige forum. Most of the thread is on my tile job.
http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=46056&page=4&pp=15
I’ve just installed the brick ledge and am now thinking of the best way to proceed in covering the chimney from the ledge on up. I would like to save a little weight if possible but will take the recommendations of the experts. Options are to use a thin brick (pricey), regular brick or apply something like QUIKWALL Surface Bonding Cement (how do you flash this?). Whatever I use, according to SHMBO, it will need to be painted to match our painted brick house.
My other issue is that I can’t find an internet resource on how to brick a chimney and keep it level. No place to set up level lines. Do I rely only on my level? Do I leave a gap between my chimney and the brick?
Sorry for all the questions at once.
Replies
Bump?
Slow down and bring us up to date from scratch.
First, I can't tell what that thing is in the photo, whether cast concrete, or????
Second, I read 4-5 posts at john bridge and saw nothing about a chimney. can you give a link or clue where to start so I don't have to read an encyclopaedea of non-related information?
Third, please define your use of "fire rock. There is a hearth and face material by that product name and it is also a generic term for a drywall sheetgood.
Fourth, you confuse me by talking about a painted brick home but that doesn't show in the photo.
Try and present the information in a more organized manner so we can figure out what you have and what you want, please.
The only Q I can answer right now is that brick is laid by using a level to keep it right.
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Sorry for the confusion. Here is a link to the FIREROCK fireplace. It will save you from reading through my posts. It is an Atlanta based company. The fireplace is a masonry product.
http://www.firerock.us/
As far as the painted home, if I use brick for the chimney she wants it painted to match the house.
OK, You are talking about ..I see now ...The chimney portion that rises above the roof, right?The fact that this company ( three different meanings now for 'Firerock') provides a chimney section cast as a brick ledge tells me that you can lay up brick on that exterior. If you were to be using thinbrick or a cultured stone, you really would not need a ledge. It would probably be easier for me to lay brick than to fiddle around with slimbrick on this. The company should also have some clues and detailed advice. For instance, a typical masonry chimney is built with the exterior brick veneer separated from the flue by a space with certain reasons, so they should be able to say whether they recommend that or solid pack.You will need to know what method to plan your framing cuts and how you will do the roof flashing too.If you choose brick, be aware that some brick is made to be painted and others will deteriorate fast if it gets painted.And you will want to decide how to cap it. Again - check with the manufacturer for their recommendations.I thought you were asking about the veneer finish on the interior where the photo showed.
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Thanks for the quick reply. I just emailed FIREROCK with those questions, it's not in their literature.
I have already framed the opening for brick and can reduce it if needed. I'm now stuck until I decide what to veneer with.
Thanks
From their FAQ page -
"13. Can Fire Rock support a brick or rock load above the roof line?
Another positive benefit of the Fire Rock system is the Bricking Flange. This component allows a masonry veneer above the roofline without having to build a special support structure all the way through the house. The Fire Rock system will also support a traditional chimney pot or other decorative masonry finish."That confirms that the brickledge they sell is designed to support the load of the brick.I also came across a statement that their product does not expand from heat in the same way that typical masonry does, so the space between brick and the core would only be needed for detailing the flashing.The best flashing detail is a through flashing rather than let in. I am not sure just how I would do that with this system.
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I looked up "through flashing" and found this link:
http://www.copper.org/applications/architecture/arch_dhb/flashings_copings/wall_flashing.html
What keeps the brick on top of the metal flashing held fast? Is this typical chimney flashing?
I was planning on trying this method which I found on the web.
Dog gonme it man, you search good - or well!;)Those are good details and a good site!"Let in" means the counter flash is only let into the brick mortar joint about half an inch. It is probably more common and it works to keep water out about 80% of the time. But if you can use lead to flash all the way thru, you are certain to capture all the water that penetrates the masonry and divert it to the outside of the step flashing in the shingles.The brick stays in place more by gravity than anything else I guess. Your attachment has more to do with showing the base/step flashing than how the counterflashing works thru the masonry.
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When you decide what the veneer is, bump the thread.I advise strongly against slimbrick. Cultured stone would be OK, but even trickier to flash. Brick is what I am predisposed to see there.Others may have different opinions.
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I'll have to rebuild my fireplace sometime in the next couple of years, and I was thinking about this product. I saw it at a JLC Live show.
So, how was it to put together?
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
I have it on my list to consider too. My best mason died this year hunting moose.
And he wasn't even as old as I am.
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"how was it to put together?"Hoping you can use screws?;)
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I have done it by myself, which is challenging physically due to the weight of some of the parts. It goes together with thinset and Im told you can put screws into it for brick ties ;<). It also allows for rebar if you get tall enough. Firerock has more concrete in it than Isokern and is thus heavier (2500-3000 lbs total - I had to cut out my floor and pour a heavier footer) but stronger. I bought this from the local dealer who usually charges $900 to put it up, whch they do in about two days in new construction. Cost of the kit is $2,500 to $3,000, less than half of a full masonry job. Due to my schedule, trying to save some $ and putting this in an existing home, I decided to do it myself. I had to get up this morning to my wife saying the roof was leaking!? A few days ago by accident, I cut a hole in the singles with my sawsall! I thought I had patched it well enough.
I am in the home stretch now and just trying to figure out what to veneer my chimney with and how to best flash it.
All suggestions welcome.
Edited 11/26/2007 10:14 am ET by pwd
pwd.... if you are going to lay a brick face, you should be inserting brick ties into your Firerock joists as you lay them up.....
bring up your corners first....checking your courses for level with a long level or a straight edge & level
you can run mason's line & corner blocks from corner to corner to keep your courses straight in both planes
figure on a 3/8" course joint & a 3/8" head jointMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the info Mike. I have a question about the spacing of the ties. The chimney is 22" square and I have a 32" brick ledge. Which leads me to believe I will have 3 1/2 bricks a side or four If I don't cut. The FIREROCK chimney is made of 6" tall blocks. Where should the ties be and would you insert them in the block or use masonry screws? I ask about the screws because there is not much room to insert the ties into the block except on the ends.
Also the Strongtie ties at HD are for wood walls, are these okay or too long?
Also I'm not understanding the two plane method with corner blocks.
Thanks
Edited 11/26/2007 5:52 pm ET by pwd
6" so you'll wind up with almost 2 courses between each joint on the Firerock
i'd probably install one tie in each joint face staggering left & right
a brick tie is a bricktie wether they get nailed to the sheathing into the studs or they're inserted in the joints of the block core that makes up most chimneys
the two planes are vertical & horizontal... if you run a string line ( with the mason's corner blocks ) from corner to corner... you then lay to the line with the course
the lead bricklayer usually lays up the corners ,, then the other bricklayers stretch the lines to the corners and lay to the line
same thing on a chimney... just a shorter distance between corners
to start your corners you start at the bottom ... lay up about 3-4 courses... then drop a plumb line to the corners... fasten a string to the ceiling ( or some framework ) and to a nail at the bottom of the corner
the corners get laid to the plumb line
the courses get laid to the corners
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/26/2007 6:10 pm ET by MikeSmith
Thanks Mike, only one or two more questions. I saw the line block at HD but no one there could tell me how to use them (they said to hook the cut out over the rebar!!???). Is a line block the same as a corner block? How do it work?
line block & corner block are the same
you wrap the string around the block, stretch it and hook it on the corner.... naturally you have to make sure the corner has set enough so the block won't pullit out of position
here you can see the wooden line blocks on the top course
View Image
and here you can see the plumb lines for the corners
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/26/2007 6:52 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 11/26/2007 6:53 pm ET by MikeSmith
I see now, Thanks!
Mike, what type of mortar do you recommend, S, N or a custom mix?
Okay, maybe only one more question. How far off of the chimney does the roof sheathing need to be held back? What fills the gap, only shingles and flashing?
my understanding of the code is that the sheathing doesn't have to be held back.... but the framing has to be 2" clear
and yes .... theh flashing & shingles fill the gapMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Would you use S or N mortar or a custom mix? Sacrete or quikcrete?
i've always used type N...
but here's a good article on the use of the various types
including a picture of the kind we buy ( Iron Clad )
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/mortar-what-type-need.aspxMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
My next question is how do I create temporary chimney flashing or waterproof my chimney as I build it. The chimney is 22" square before being bricked which will then make it 32" sq. I am ready to cut the roof sheathing and have an idea. First, cut the roof slightly larger than 22", stack and mortar the pieces to full height. Then use roll aluminum flashing cut to size for temp flashing (this may he harder to leak proof than I think) and then cover the entire chimney with heavy mill plastic secured over the flashing at the bottom with duct tape. I can then at my leisure start bricking the chimney from the brick ledge on up.
Is there a better way or am I all wet? ;<)
Edited 12/1/2007 1:54 pm ET by pwd
"how do I create temporary chimney flashing "Bituthene or Ice and water shield. Smaller rolls available as Vycor
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Put it under the upper shingles and on top of the side and bottom ones? It will stick to the top of the shingles? If so, you are da man!
I found the Vycor at Lowes in a 9" width.
Question# 247 - Can I use the 1/2 width cement block to start with on my brick ledge instead of brick until I exit the roof?
Question #248 - Can someone direct me to instructions on installing Firebrick in my fireplace?
yes..
&
firebrick .... get a recipe for fireclay / mortar
if you have the space... lay your firebrick full.. if you don't .. lay it on edgeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike what would determine enough space? The mfg says to lay on edge. The back and floor are full depth firebrick while the sides are halves.
Here are a few pics of recent progress.
Today I finished stacking to full height, tempoararily flashed it (vycor) and tarped it while I study how to lay brick. I am also going to install rebar and grout.
Thanks for all the help.
are you talking about the firebox ? for your firebrick ?
your FIREBLOCK mfr. must have a lot of diagrams about what they recommend
if i were building a fireplace from scratch... i'd download a copy of Count Rumsford's fireplace designs
that would give me the inside dimensions of my firebox.. and my firebox would be 4" thick , because my firebrick would be laid full width in a fireclay mortar..
to save money .. most fireboxes are only 2 1/2 " thick because they lay the bricks on edgeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
hey.. looking good with the brick ties
View Image
you going to cut your roof back to allow the veneer and a space ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We can get the cream white firebrick that is only a bit over an inch thick with special order too.
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i laid up my first fireplaces on edge..
my masons told me they burn thru.. that hot fires need the full 4" and the refractory moartar mixMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The fireplace is what FIREROCK calls a Modified Rumford. This is from their page. A difference I see is that my throat is at the back of the box and the brick set flat might mess up the draw. I have the 36" model.
I will cut the roof again when I start laying brick. I left it small to assit with the temporary flashing. The framing is set to give 2" clearance after it is bricked.
Fire Rock Modified Rumford Firebox
Traditionally, a Rumford fireplace is a tall, shallow fireplace designed by Sir Benjamin Thompson, Count Rumford, born in 1753 in Woburn, Massachusetts. Count Rumford was known for his investigations of heat and fireplace design. Based on their design, Rumford fireplaces reflect more heat, and have streamlined throats to eliminate turbulence and carry away the smoke with little loss of heated room air. Additionally, the Fire Rock pumice-based construction reflects heat much more efficiently than traditional masonry products.
View Image
For that classic look, Fire Rock offers a modified version of the Rumford fireplace. The Fire Rock Modified Rumford firebox incorporates three of the fundamental design characteristics associated with the classic Rumford:
The opening is taller than it is wide.
Have a radius lentil.
The back of the firebox is straight up, with no inward angle.
However, unlike the traditional Rumford’s shallow depth and widely angled sides, the Fire Rock Modified Rumford is a full 22 1/2" deep to accommodate larger logs and gas log sets. If the customer desires the wide angled sides, the unit can easily be modified at the time of installation by the installer or mason.
DIMENSIONS
Firebox Size
30
36
42
48
Opening Width*
32 ½
38 ½
44 ½
50 ½
Opening Height*
34 ½
43 1/8
43 1/8
51 ¾
That is very modified.A pure Rumsford will have a ratio of 3:1.A 36" wide penning will have a back that is 12" wide. that makes the side walls angle much more to reflect heat out into the room. The openning will also be taller than it is wide, because that is the shape of a flame.
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I suppose I could build the firebox more like a Rumford and fill the space with rubble. I still would need to figure out the air flow to the throat.
No, don't change that design.
I was commenting for general information, not to try to encourage you to tamper.FP design is a complicated formula, full of variables. Size and shape of opening, of damper, and of flue and chimney height are all interdependent and affect how well it heats and whether it draws or not.
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i think i'd stick with your FIREROCK recommendations..
refractory mortar can be had a most mason supply yards.. they usually sell it in 10 - 25 lb. black plastic bags
ask them for a recipe to mix it... straight refractory is almost pure clay.. it takes months to set and the bricks keep squeezing out the mortar ( don't ask how come i know this )
i had the recipe when i built Adverse.. for setting the thimbles..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"stick with your FIREROCK recommendations.."Absolutely!
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Thanks, will do.
I now have a question about how the firebrick on the side of the fireplace will meet the stone surround. Since the inside of the fireplace is not square to the front, any brick attached will have it's inside face protrude more than the outside face. Is the brick supposed to touch the back of the granite surround? Or is it supposed to be caulked and thus you need to leave a little space. Does it need to be cut square to the face? How do you determine the amount of the space if any? View Image View Image View Image Thanks in advance!
you need a scale drawing .... in section & plan so you can do your layout
the firebrick firebox should butt up to the back of the face.... look at the mfr's diagramsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We'll, I think the only layout will be setting it dry as a trial run. There are no diagrams, they basically don't care about the finish, they only sell the parts, a part of their business I think they could improve. I don't think there are that many DIY'ers out there doing this and thus they don't have the need to provide that service.
my masons cut an angle on the firebrick there where it butts behind the face material.
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Thanks, I'll do that.
how's it comming ?
we want pics !
on the way to Charlotte tomorrow... but i got my laptop with meMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It has come to a stop until after Christmas and New Years.
Here is a pic of the Firebrick progress and a link with a little cut and paste about refractory mortar.
FYI, for those who ever put in Firebrick, there are lots of mortars out there along with lots of confusion.
http://www.rumford.com/articleRefmortar.html"Many fireplace masons are not familiar with refractory mortar, or they confuse it with fireclay mortar. Masonry fireboxes are often laid in ordinary Portland cement mortar, sometimes with a little extra cement in it or perhaps with some fire-clay added to make it "fire-clay mortar".This is not surprising since the major building codes have been unclear, inconsistent - or silent - on the subject. The ICC codes, which are just now being adopted in many states, require refractory mortar for the construction of fireboxes, smoke chambers and flue linings...The problem with using ordinary mortar is that Portland cement can't take the heat. Oddly, Portland cement retains its strength up to fairly high temperatures but deteriorates as the temperature cools down through about 600 degrees F. Eventually all that's left of the mortar is the sand and fire-clay with no cement binder. The mortar has no strength and easily falls out of the joints - especially if they're wide joints.Refractory mortar, on the other hand, is made with high temperature cements and carefully selected aggregates that don't expand and tear the mortar apart when heated."
so... what recipe did you end up with ?
and where did you get the skinny firebricks ?
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
that thin look more like refactory bricks..
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The vendor supplied the firebrick. He likes the thick on the bottom and back, says that becasue of the refractory nature of the unit, some of the splits were breaking if used there. The splits only go on the sides.
The recipe I used was half and half S mortar and the special firerock mortar. They say it is special but not what is in it. So, feeling that I had already messed up, I located an outfit in town that makes refractory mortar for industry and I can get a 50 bag of powder for about $30. They asked what rating I wanted, I had no idea, so he is going to give me something that is rated to 2,200 degrees. They sell from there all the way up to booster rocket resistant ;<)
I know that for years most fireplaces were built with regular portland cement, so if after 100 years I have to replace the brick already installed that will be okay.
Hey, is it July already and I'm still not finished!?
I need help pricing for a decent mason to brick the exterior of my chimney. I've got 32" square about 8 or 9 feet tall. It's on a one story roof with a brick ledge in the attic. I'm not getting much interest for this small job and am not sure I want to do it myself. I was thniking 2 days work for a mason with me carrying and mixing and was looking to pay around $500. And it's only a short fall from the roof. Is this unreasonable?
Here is a pic.
Guys I know could do that in one long day, unless the size or brickledge is somehow rough.But they make five hundred a day too
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Mike could do that by coffeetime! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
We could get those thins for linings in wood stoves pretty easy thru stove dealers.The old fireplaces here have thins laid flat. Uses a lot of mortar but really looks nice. My mason can get thins for redlining them with the same look, so they must not be a hard item to find
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good morning to you, too...
client meeting... Christmas party.... pick up the ailing computer...... banking...
then on the road to Charlotte...
Merry Christmas to all ... and to all a good dayMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ju8st got the book you sent yesterday and just finished another book same day. Must be destiny reading. Carole says she likes this author - has read his other stuff.drive safe
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14 hours... great time... smooth sailing... the honey do list from my daughter is daunting thoughMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
wouldn't that be a Pappacan list?
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see.. in this pic.. buckley is laying the firbrick on edge... the way most do..
but i was told that if you lay them flat , you get a better firebox
takes longer, uses more brick.. and takes more space.. but..
View Image
notice the pre-formed smoke shelf / throat sitting on the square bucket..
that is what determines the size / shape / angle of his firebox
was thinking about this today... just about convinced myself to put a fireplace in our next house... just about
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/20/2007 10:00 pm ET by MikeSmith
They will burn through but are replaceable.We have relined several that were a hundred years old.
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I bought a "special" mortar from FIREROCK to assemble the unit back in March and am afraid it has sat too long while I diverted to tiling my floor. I'm assuming it is a refractory mortar? Where else can I get this mortar?
It is possible to buy a tub of premixed refractory mortar for a small job too.What determines if you have space - When you lay the firebrick lid flat, you use more mortar an the size of your fire chamber gets smaller. So draw a line 4" inside of the shell you have and seel if you can tolerate that for fire log size.
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