How to build stair into cliff of lake
bhackford
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I was asked by a freind to take a look at a project late last week where they need many stairs to get down to a lake. About 50′ down. 30% slope. This lake freeze, so frost is a huge problem. Anyone done one of these before or seen a good solution? Thanks
Replies
What kind of soil?
Will need to plan a l;anding every fifteen feet or less to be safe, and practical
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No soil test results yet, so unofficially clay and rock.
I have done this by pouring pairs of piered footings into the soil every set of stringers and posting up from those, but never much confidence it would stand the test of time.I have done it by laying a 6x6 as tread in and pinning it with rebar drilled into rock and backfilling with gravel. This needs annual additions of gravel eroded and occasional replacement of a step, but failure of one step does not endanger the whole.I have seen it done similarly with cut granite steps.Anyway you look at it, it is a lot of work to do this on a hillside unless you have a healthy young billygoat working for you as a gopher.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I had a customer down in the Smokies that wanted stairs down to the river from his chalet. It would have been 10 sets of 14' stringers with landings and switch sides (angles, not a true switchback) to make it happen.
Not my idea of fun. I passed it off and a friend with almost no exp. jumped at the job, w.o. my knowledge.
Friend got the lumber delivered, trees cut, some postholes dug out and quit. Just bailed on the guy.
Customer begged me to have a look at the mess, and it was. The Dumbasss friend had started at the top, and tried to work down...AFAIK that is NOT how to do it.
So I strung some lines from post holes he had, loaded the truck w/lumber, drove to the boat launch and loaded the lumber on a john boat and rowed it to the first ( or last) landing/dock. Tied off, built the dock..then first flight, then a landing, then a flight...etc.
It zigged and zagged and the guys wife wanted a gazeebo mid climb, so she got it. Man it was hell.
I saw "friend" long after the fact, and said something about the stairs..he said " yeah, my helper quit, it was too steep, I told the HO it was impossible"
That same HO, paid me 2x what "mr. Impossible" was gonna get. LOL. It was murder on the legs, just building it, I can't imagine actually climbing it on a regular basis.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I'm exhausted just reading your post. Those types of jobs are behind me anymore.
Thanks for the feedback. Do you have any photos?
Nope. I wish I did. I wasn't even digital back then, and the site was a mountainside, falling down to the Tuckasiegee River. Not much way to photo it except from a boat.
Just start at the bottom and work up, and keep the angle of incline under 38 degrees and all should be fine. Landings are good for a rest stop if it is a way long climb.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
There is a really nice set of steps in a similar situation just next door to our outstation at Friday Harbor, WA (San Juan Island). I admire it every year - wondering: how did they calculate this one??I will see about some pix of it for posting.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
cog rail type elevator...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"cog rail type elevator..."
Tel me more about this. I may have a similar need on the east shore of lake Michigan. I got me 110' bluff of clay and snad on a 50% slope.
My application:
Sorry about the double post. But in that pic, my lot begins to the left of that big tall pine sticking out on top and runs 110'. The pine's base is about 110' above the water level, which is about 6' below this pic's camera.
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This is looking north, the other way is the same.
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And from the road up top, looking west:
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Edited 9/3/2007 2:58 pm ET by peteshlagor
Edited 9/3/2007 3:00 pm ET by peteshlagor
there are so many elevated houses of one kind or another, many on clifts....
elevators are the way to go.. 'specially moving or grocery day....
or lazy wins out....
haven't any picks.. Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I don't know what state you are in but be sure you know what the permitting process is. Some states are very strict about any shoreland work and must have state as well as local permits. It can also be a very long process as well.
Thanks, I will look into state permits.
This lake freeze, so frost is a huge problem
If the lake freezes hard enough, it might be easier to build it in Winter from the bottom up, using the frozen surface as a work platform.
Clever. where were you 10 yrs ago? LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Is the digging in frozen ground factor calculated in that theory?
@@ PHOTOS OF STAIRS DOWN BANK
Capron's Landing, Friday Harbor, WAHere are my first efforts at that Irfan program.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Save the pics as JPEGs, not BITMAPs.
For the same # of bytes you get a much larger picture.
Joe H
i've built about 5 sets of stairs to the beach over the years...
if i was in your situation..... i'd pour some landings with QuickCrete..... i'd use a standard PT 2x12 stringer and a PT 2x12 tread... i'd set up a router to rout the stringers for a housed tread... and i'd use a SS or HD Galv threaded rod under every 2d or 3d tread to prevent spreading
each stair flight would be landing to landing , whatever i could get out of a 16' 2x12 with a max rise of 7" ( so my rise / tread would be apx. 7/11 ).... you have to follow the topography... you are NOT going to change that.. so get your Construction Master calc out out figure your first flight..... on your 16' stringer (horse ) figure at least 3 sets of posts ( 4x4 PT)...... make your posts go from the footing to the top of the rail
if you can use PT 2x4 parallel rails instead of balusters... do so..... if your BI requires balusters, then think up something like say 2x2 Trex with a top rail & bottom rail of 2x4 PT
put a landing at every flight.... probably PT 2x6 joists with say Trex planking..... you can start at the top ....... or the bottom... whichever is easier for getting materials up and downMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the info. I am going to take another look at it from the bottom up to see what I dealing with.
From what I've dealt with building stairs on rocky build sites I'd also go with the idea of putting in landings and span between them.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Thanks these look great. How much drop in total? Thanks
Is the digging in frozen ground factor calculated in that theory?
It was more of an off the top of my head observation than a theory, but to the extent securing the structure to the planet requires anchoring in rock, it shouldn't matter. Having a frozen solid base might also reduce any potential problems associated with dropping stuff (i.e. tools, materials) into the water. If
I suppose a floating platform or dock might serve the same purpose if available, but ice is free. Plus, skating to work sounds like fun.
Thanks. This is a great idea.
About 25 years ago we were approached by a friend who had just bought a house on Lake Champlain atop a 30 foot cliff with a slope over 60%. The rock on the cliff was mostly shale which weeped water and was flaking off. There was a series of dilapidated log ladders leading to the lake. He asked us if we could build him a set of stairs to the lake.
After examining the rock I told him that we could take one of two approaches. We could drill and bolt steel platforms to the rock and built atop those. I estimated that this would cost over $20k, 2/3 what he paid for the house. The second approach was to build the stairs on top of stilts, finding ledges where we could and bracing the stilts. We could anticipate that the stilts would have to be checked regularly and moved or replaced as needed.
Since we couldn't really guarentee the longevity of either plan, our friend chose the stilt route which we built for $2500.
Over the years we added more stilts, braces and cables at a cost of $300 every five years. Ten years into the life of the stairs I got a call from my friend. "You know that big rock that supports the middle platform? It is now in the lake." I went to see the damage. I walked down the stairs to the platform and the stairs were still completely supported by the numerous stilts and cables we had added over the years.
Could we do this set of stairs following the prevailing codes? Absolutely not, but it showed me the value of redundancy in any design.
We recently replaced the original stairs by jackhammering platforms at the necessary locations and pinning masonry platforms to the rock. We will see how these hold up to the onslaught of the spring waters.
cliff stairs to Lake Champlain - 2012
by Schelling in reply to bhackford [original] on Tue, 09/04/2007 - 11:39
"About 25 years ago we were approached by a friend who had just bought a house on Lake Champlain atop a 30 foot cliff with a slope over 60%. The rock on the cliff was mostly shale which weeped water and was flaking off. There was a series of dilapidated log ladders leading to the lake. He asked us if we could build him a set of stairs to the lake..."
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Hi Schelling. I'm new to this forum having joined in order to reply after doing a search which returned your response to "bhackforfd's" original question back in 2007.
I'm in a simlar situation now (2012), also looking to build stairs down a cliff to the shore of Lake Champlain ...but from scratch. By my reckoning you built the stairs you describe 30 years ago and did some repair work about 5 years ago. Would you consider taking a look at my project?
Tim
BarneyPoint@gmailcom
MORE DETAILS ...
Per your request - more details.
Attached are a few more pix - in jpeg.
The stairs at Capron's Landing are done in pt 3x12s (2.5x11.5".
The treads are secured by lag bolts to sections of alum. angle stock. I think this is easier and less prone to rot that routing slots (which would be a large job).
The rise is 7.5" x 11.5 for the tread.
There are 57 steps, including five landings for an appx. rise of 36'.
The landings are nicely done, sitting on 10" concrete columns and cross braced. Makes you wonder about forming up all the colums and getting a pumper truck in. Or enjoying the old fashioned brute force method. Humping concrete up and down the slope was probably good exercise.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Here are some similar stairs I built a few years ago... 120 steps / 8 landings ... these were mostly pinned into ledge but had a few concrete footings. At least like I did, you'll have a decent view while you work.
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This is great. Where is this..... just general body of water?
How high is it? Now you raised the water area due to frost? How did you know how high to raise the "water dock/deck area"? You pined this with rebar with epoxy to the stone? Concrete where there was soil?
Why did you pick this route and how did you know to go down then right the down more then left and so on? Do you map the out or just make it work as you went?
What is this like to maintain? Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the questions. I enjoyed building those stairs, although it took almost a summer of weekends.
"How high is it? Now you raised the water area due to frost? How did you know how high to raise the "water dock/deck area"? You pined this with rebar with epoxy to the stone? Concrete where there was soil? "
It's in the Boothbay (Maine) area - Barter's Island (accessed via drawbridge, so no barges for lumber, thank you). The top of foundation is about 130' above sea level. The steps (120 of em) start at about 110-120'. I did not build the pier and float - but I cut oaks for pilings and had a marine contractor drive the pilings (gravity/hydraulic ram and crane). The elevation of the dock is determined by the tide levels.
I found that the best way to fasten PT to ledge was to drill a 1/2" hole using a hammer drill. Start with a 1/8" bit, then switch to the larger one and it goes quite fast. #4 rebar fits snugly in that 1/2" hole and can be driven in for a tight friction fit. I was worried about rust, but haven't seen any. Didn't use epoxy with the rebar - and the project has survived several storms with 60 mph winds.
Oh that second long run of stairs - that was assembled on the barge, and lifted in place by crane. It's made of 3 double stringers, vs. 3 single stringers on the rest of the stairs.
"Why did you pick this route and how did you know to go down then right the down more then left and so on? Do you map the out or just make it work as you went? What is this like to maintain? "
The route was picked by working top down, locating the landings in the most convenient/secure spots. Made sure that no 2x12 stringer would be longer than 16' - both for ease of handling and procuring the lumber. When one landing was completed, rather than mess with storey poles and water or laser levels, I'd cut a prototype stringer, tack it in, level it out and start the next landing below the last riser. Usually it's easy and a good use of materials to go in a straight line, but often, then site suggests another route. Amazingly, the drawings I made before starting almost matched the as-built.
All steps were 8.5 x 9.5 x 40" wide. I spray finished with a coat of Cabot's translucent stain and so far, the maintenance has been nil.
So working from the top down you tied on? And where always hanging on while working? Did you just wear a harness? You also used existing trees to connect the stairs to the ledge?
So for each set of stairs, how many pieces of rebar/nails hold the stairs to the ledge/tree? Do you have any more detailed photos that you could post or email me of the attachments? Thanks again for your help.
bhackford -
Yes, I did tie in with safety line at several points. I used one #4 rebar, drilled a 3" deep x 1/2" diam hole into ledge for each post. On the average I'd say we used 4-6 pins per landing. If I did it again I'd get a gasoline hammer drill rather than the Bosch. I did not tie in to any trees.
If I did it again, I'd try to build from the bottom up, but that presents a lumber delivery problem.
I'll try to post some more photos with some details.
Pete
I don't have any in-progress photos, but here you can see the details of the supporting structure. Beams were doubled 2x8 and posts were 4x6 or 6x6. Mike suggested housed stringers, which I think is a good idea. If you cut your stringers as I did here, they will need some support in the center if they run a full 16'.
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This landing is pinned into the large outcrop of ledge you see on the left, then catilevered over a beam which runs parallel to the cliff. This one definitely called for a safety line.
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2x4 diagonal bracing stiffens up the stair carriages. Risers (not installed yet here) help give it a more solid feel as well.
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One other useful tip is to make yourself an inclinometer out of a 2x4, using a scrap of wood hanging from a nail as a "pointer" - draw in angles between 30 and 50 degrees. The inverse tangent(rise/run) gives you degrees of slope. You can get a sense of where the next stringer will land with this makeshift tool.
Good luck with your stairs and post some pictures when you're done.
Pete
Edited 9/10/2007 12:58 pm ET by shearwater
NICE!!!
Looks like you've got a good helper there too.
shear... that is fantastic !
did you build the house too?
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I STILL AM bulding this house - so yes. In the photo you may note it is still lacking a porch, there is a tent where the fireplace is being built, and the basement is still just Tyvek. It is mostly a DIY project, a timber frame, and is moving at a snail's pace, especially compared to the stuff you and your crew do! I may do a photo thread on it some day, once I'm more content with the progress. Thanks for asking.
remember the tortise & the hare.....
i'm bettin on youMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yeah, I'm with the others, very cool project. Bit of a harsh climate for me, but I'd relish the opportunity to build something like that.Huck said it first. I just agreed with him.
I see a Luge in the winter...LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Know anyone able to do this in Saratoga NY?
We need to repair or replace the concrete and wood stairs (and shed) from our yard to the lake 3 flights down. Anyone interested? C an you recommend someone in this area? Thanks!
You'd be better off placing your query in the "Help Wanted Work Wanted" forum.
Looking to give the methheads on the beach, easy access to your place ?
;o)
Not a beach situation, but I have a neighbor who lives on the other side of the foothill/ridge from me.
I seriously considered putting steps into the ridge to make it easier for either of us to vist. Would have made a nice little nature walk as well.
But I soon discovered that the easier I made it, the more the methheads who also live over there... Were over here stalking around my place. So I gave up the idea.
I take it there is no real problem with that sort of thing in your area ?
=0)
They do this stuff in Northern New York along the St Lawrence River all the time. It is all rock. They usually drill and anchor into the rock and tie the stringers onto the anchors.
River does not fluxuate level much so there is usually a landing of sort above the high level mark and then removable ladder down to the water.
Can also do a small floating dock with stairs or ramp on pins attached to the dock from the landing. You have to remove the floating dock and stairs/ramp before the frost. (good business in Northern New York)
The stairs typically will angle up the embankment so that they are running at a reasonable pitch (I would guess that 30 % is aok since a typical residential stair is more than that but you have to figure loosing some space due to landings)
Sounds like fun