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Discussion Forum

how to find contractors

draftguy | Posted in General Discussion on August 15, 2005 10:49am

Question for all you contractors out there. Our non-profit group provides design services for lower income/urban areas in Columbus, Ohio. Usually exterior, mostly renovation work, some new build, primarily commercial. None of it is stamped by an architect/engineer since we’re mostly conceptual, but we do lots of renderings and elevations, plans, details, rough cost estimates, manufacturer information, code/zoning reviews, etc.. Much of the work involves new storefronts, signage, custom awnings, painting, fencing, lighting, landscaping, and similar cosmetic proposals. Problem is, our clients sometimes have trouble getting contractors to even look at their projects.

I know some of the reasons why. The projects are small, sometimes not in the ‘best’ neighborhoods, budgets are tight, etc.. But not always. Even in gentrified/developing areas, with budgets between 50-100k, it’s still hard to find people. What I’m wondering is, how can clients avoid this? Is there a ‘magic number’ that GC’s respond to? Is there a way to hook up with some of the trades during downtime between projects? Are there people who specialize in work like this? Or any sources to go to besides the phone book? I hate having clients trying to GC their own projects, or subjecting themselves to anybody with a hammer. We spend a lot of time creating big effects with little resources, and it benefits nobody if it’s poorly executed in the end. And these are often the people most in need of help, and the most grateful to get it.

As always, gentlemen and ladies, any and all opinions accepted and appreciated. 🙂

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  1. YesMaam27577 | Aug 15, 2005 11:48pm | #1

    I no longer live anywhere near columbus, so I really can't help much with the core of your question -- how to get contractors to meet with your clients.

    But there are some thoughts that you should ponder -- and that your clients should too.

    Last time I checked, Columbus was a growing area -- lots of new construction in all of the general fields (residential, commercial, industrial......) As a result, most of the contractors can pick and choose among the jobs.

    And if your clients are located in an area where the contractor's tools might be at risk, then what you have seen is going to be the norm. Sorry about the fact that this particular truth might suck the big one, but it really is the hard truth.

    Now here's another truth. America -- Columbus included -- can be a wonderful place, so long as there's folks who notice the possibilities. For instance, Columbus is a big enough town that there is probably a program somewhere that teaches poor folks how to be tradesmen. And another program somewhere else in town that helps other poor folks become business savvy.

    Perhaps you see where I'm going -- and maybe your design firm could get HUGE free publicity out of this -- put the pieces together. Find an entrepreneur who is willing to take on this risk. Then find the people who have recently finished the combined rehab/apprenticeship program. Give them the prints from one of the projects you mention.

    Then put out a press release extolling the virtues of this new "Synergystic" thing that you started.

    Just be sure that you can get the he11 out of the way -- in case it really takes off.

     

     

    Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.

    1. User avater
      draftguy | Aug 16, 2005 02:15am | #4

      "Last time I checked, Columbus was a growing area -- lots of new construction in all of the general fields (residential, commercial, industrial......) As a result, most of the contractors can pick and choose among the jobs."Very true."Columbus is a big enough town that there is probably a program somewhere that teaches poor folks how to be tradesmen. And another program somewhere else in town that helps other poor folks become business savvy."Yes. We've worked with other NP's that have programs for business incubators, which give people a foothold with their start-ups. And about construction:1) Had a former client (a contractor) in the other day, talking about a program to get more inner-city kids into construction. It's offered through the unions or trade organizations (?), and it was city-wide. Last year they had two takers. Two. Out of the entire city school system.
      2) Another NP builds houses with high-school workers, but they only manage to get a couple houses done a year.
      3) The city of Columbus has a 'tool-loan' program that sends a truck out (maybe more than one) loaded with tools for use by anyone within the city. No fees, absolutely free. Another former client used it to get equipment to refinish his wood floors. I thought there'd be a waiting list a mile long . . . he said he got what he needed that day.Not offering these as excuses, but confirmation of your good ideas. Unfortunately, when programs are available, they don't always produce results. More reason to keep trying, though. :)

  2. User avater
    RichColumbus | Aug 15, 2005 11:59pm | #2

    I cannot speak for every contractor… but I can speak for myself.

     

    Unfortunately, your clients are reaping the effects of predecessor’s actions.  Projects such as these have been notorious for slow/non-payment, heaps of paperwork for anything even remotely associated with “revitalization” (ESPECIALLY anything sponsored or overseen by the City of Columbus), huge headaches with warring neighborhood groups (one wants “it” done this way… the other wants it done that way..), etc.  Not to mention that many of the projects, such as this in the past, report to a “board” of some type… and the politics are unbearable many times.

     

    And as much as the city will claim otherwise… they do not have the same inspection/contractor cooperation with these types of projects.  It seems as if the inspector thinks he HAS to find something to justify his part in the exercise.  I don’t know if it is by design… or just the way it comes out. 

     

    In addition, one only has to see the news stories about the Linden debacle to foresee the potential for HUGE issues that go well beyond the normal scope of construction (large buildings were constructed, inspected, etc… then when something went wrong… the contractors were trashed by the news media.  Was it deserved?  Don’t know…. but I know I would have to think LONG and hard before exposing myself to that kind of potential for onslaught). 

     

    When the Short-North revitalization (probably the only successful revitalization project that REALLY worked in this city) was underway… the people involved in the revitalization effort recognized these issues and came up with many, many solutions to pacify the fears.  I mean, let’s face it… the contractor essentially becomes a partner in the revitalization effort (and are really nervous about it). 

     

    To answer your question….

    Anything that can limit the contractor’s exposure in these more-risky ventures will help.  As you say… the money on these projects is TIGHT (and that is an understatement).  We have no desire to do anything that will increase costs… in fact… we will work hard to lower costs if at all possible.  But when something comes up that increases costs (through whoever’s fault)… there has to be a partnership there also (in other words… we can’t take on all of the liability for the “stuff” that happens, when we are asked to bear inordinate risks and reduced profit margins on the front side). 

     

    The neighborhood needs to be unified… and that unification communicated to the contracting world.  If a contractor has to not only deal with the construction project… but also 2 or three different community groups that all have their own agendas… well… we just ain’t gittin paid enough ta dos that thar kinda stuff.

     

    The financing needs to be secured in a fashion that is acceptable to the contractor.  Keep in mind; a certain bank in Columbus is well-known for agreeing to preliminary financing… only to pull final approval at the last minute… AFTER they get the positive press for the initial agreement.  This… or they place such unbelievable requirements on the draws… that the contractor is left holding the bag seemingly forever.  Orrrrr, the bank requires an inspection from their own inspector… and conveniently … inspectors are “unable to do the inspection for at least 4 weeks”.  (can you guess that I don’t care much for these practices?).  I have no desire to have to utilize my credit lines as a bridge loan for a project.

     

    Many times, these projects have bidding requirements that are just plain unrealistic.  If the project is.. let’s say… $4k… and the bid requirements are so detailed that it takes me 4 hours to prepare the bid…. it’s just not feasible for me to do it.

     

    Now… all of this said… I would be happy to meet with you and help develop solutions to these problems, and many others (IF there is a strong interest in doing so… and a general agreement that we are working on SOLUTIONS… not problems).  I have recently decided to close my contracting business (long story)… and have a small window of opportunity during the transition.  If that’s of interest… send me an e-mail with a phone number through the site and I will contact you.  Can’t promise you miracles… but a lunch might be beneficial.

    1. User avater
      draftguy | Aug 17, 2005 05:56pm | #8

      Sorry about the late response. A lot of information there . . . thought I'd give your fingers a rest. "one only has to see the news stories about the Linden debacle to foresee the potential for HUGE issues that go well beyond the normal scope of construction (large buildings were constructed, inspected, etc… then when something went wrong… the contractors were trashed by the news media."Which buildings in Linden? The new library? The streetscape improvements? The new fire station? The new elementary school? (hope it's not the last one . . . I was one of the designers on it)Agree with a lot of your points. We present projects to several area commissions (Victorian Village, Italian Village, University Area Review Board, etc.), and they're a pain-in-the-a$$. That said, I think they're also a necessary evil. They limit the creativity of people who can do better, but they also demand more from the people who just want to throw something up and call it a day. Unfortunately, I think there are often more of the latter than the former.Your point about contractors becoming 'partners' on projects is interesting. Something I'd heard about in the past, but hadn't considered as an option here. Something to think about . . . good point. And the financing issue is very true. I think our clients need to be much better equipped to begin a project. It's too easy to be casual about it, put it off, etc.. It's not fair to the contractor when that happens, and we probably need to be better at prepping our clients for the realities of the construction process.Sorry you're getting out of the business. And we're always interested in hearing potential solutions. If you have any ideas/want to meet, feel free to contact me at [email protected].Thanks for the input!

      1. JasonPharez | Aug 18, 2005 06:20am | #9

        Draft, maybe I missed something in previous posts, but WHO is providing the financing for your projects? (I.e., actually building what you design.) Also, speaking of media coverage, how about conveying those who choose to provide you with contracting services to be "the good guys"; it would drum up support for you among other contractors while providing them with free advertisement at the same time.Jason Pharez Construction

           Framing & Exterior Remodeling

        1. User avater
          draftguy | Aug 18, 2005 08:44pm | #13

          "WHO is providing the financing for your projects?"Usually, the clients themselves. But, depending on the situation, they may apply for special grants or low-interest loans sponsored by the city. If they fall within certain pre-ordained areas they can get a matching grant for up to $3000 per address (i.e., a storefront with 3 addresses could get up to $9000 from the city for exterior renovations, but only if the owner puts up an additional $9000 of his/her own money). We have a finance director who helps with the paperwork for the grants/loans, but we don't actually finance anything ourselves.And your idea about 'media coverage' is being addressed, to a point. We're in the process of organizing a large volunteer force (architects, contractors, etc.) that can be paired with projects to improve efficiency, in addition to projects we handle ourselves. All participants would be prominently displayed on our website. Maybe not the most wide-ranging 'coverage,' but it's a start. On some special projects there may be permanent displays for donated time and materials. An example is a recent neighborhood war memorial we designed, where the donors will have their names inscribed on a steel display panel. A good idea, for sure. Wish we could do that for every project.

          Edited 8/18/2005 2:40 pm ET by draftguy

      2. BobKovacs | Aug 18, 2005 02:06pm | #10

        Patrick-

        I sent you an email yesterday- hopefully you got it.

        Regarding "finding contractors"- does Columbus have any small business training programs, minority programs, business incubators, or contractor training programs?  Newark, NJ set up a great contractor training program that ran 4 times in the past two years (I taught the estimating classes), which help a lot of contractors straighten out and grow their businesses.  Unfortunately, it was geared toward getting contractors into the school construction program here (which 99.9% of them were WAY too small for), but many of them would have been perfect for the types of projects you're talking about.  If you can find similar programs there (or maybe created one??) you may have some luck getting some contractors on board.

        Bob

        1. User avater
          draftguy | Aug 18, 2005 08:47pm | #14

          Sorry . . . our email provider went down yesterday. Got your message, will respond back, thanks!

        2. YesMaam27577 | Aug 18, 2005 11:30pm | #17

          Regarding "finding contractors"- does Columbus have any small business training programs, minority programs, business incubators, or contractor training programs?

          I lived in Ohio until about three years ago. Like most lifelong Ohioans, I thougt that Ohio truly was "the Heart of it All", and that Ohio's approach to small business incubation, business training, etc,  must be world-class.

          I now live in North Carolina. Amazing how wrong I was.

          You might want to make contact with another Breaktimer -- I think his name is Pete Draganic (sp?). He's currently running for governor in Ohio, and might be keenly intersted in how much luck (or how much frustration) you've had.

          Also, another thought that's been hashed is publicity for those contractors who have helped. Make no mistake, this is a VERY important issue. If your charity has a public relations person, put them to work on this. If not, recruit one as soon as possible.

          Well-placed press releases can get amazing coverage in a town the size of Columbus. Even a couple of inches on the third page of the third section can get attention for a contractor who has helped your cause. (And of course, it will also get some attention for your charity too.)

          And note that the vast majority of free publicity that contractors get is of the negative variety. ANY amount of positive publicity, even buried in the box scores section of the sports section, makes us feel REALLY good.

          Oh, and our other customers/clients notice too. And we really like that.

           

           Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.

  3. Piffin | Aug 16, 2005 12:52am | #3

    http://www.neighborhooddesign.org

    I got the link from your profile for anyone who is interested in more info. It was hard for me to conceptualize what you are all about, who you work for and where the money comes from.

    start by realizing that contractors - the professional ones you are looking for - are in this for money. So when you display the moniker non-profit right up front, you could be giving the impression that you are asking the contractors to be non-profit in the venture too. Or that you are not a truly professional quality outfit. Make your contacts in a manner thatr defrays that image. My impression also is that you do mostly commercial work. This is a special cadre` of the contracting business, not that all contractors are aware of that fact. Some think they can do anything and do it all as well as another. Think targeted marketing. make a list of the contractors who do the sort of work you have in mind, then narrow it down one call at a time. As each interview closes, be sure to ask "Who else do you know who might be qualified for this sort of thing..."

    BTW, your fist page of that website took three and a half minutes to load for me on dial-up. have your webmaster lookinto a more efficient presentation page. If I were't in a slow wind down mode, I never would have waited beyond thirty seconds. Could be other parties have passed it by for the same reasons.

     

     

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    1. User avater
      draftguy | Aug 16, 2005 03:01am | #6

      "when you display the moniker non-profit right up front, you could be giving the impression that you are asking the contractors to be non-profit in the venture too. Or that you are not a truly professional quality outfit. Make your contacts in a manner thatr defrays that image."Understand your point. I've been here for two years now, and joke that before being offered the position I thought they paid the employees in chickens. But we don't advertise ourselves as 'non-profit,' just our title. And our position is much like an architectural firm, we do the drawings and try to help as much as possible afterwards. We started focusing more on construction-type drawings to make them easier to build from. More line drawings (sections, plans, elevations, details, etc.) that were measured, to scale and noted up, to get more projects built. It's increased our workload, but I don't know if the results have justified it. And we've kept lists of contractors who expressed an interest in projects, but then they barely return phone calls to our clients. Not picking on anyone, just pointing out what's happening. But your point is very valid. The whole ball of wax has a particular image to it and, unfair and untrue as it may be, it needs to be addressed."BTW, your fist page of that website took three and a half minutes to load for me on dial-up."We're spoiled on cables here. Sorry it took so long. My guess would be because of the graphics. I'm old-school . . . graduated with an arch degree when people still used their hands to actually draw things and make models. But our computer renderings now take so much memory that it probably affects dial-up access. And this is after eliminating a bunch of images recently. But I'll pass your observation on to someone who knows more about it than I do, and I apologize (in advance) to anybody else who has the same problem.

  4. JohnSprung | Aug 16, 2005 02:16am | #5

    Perhaps ask your local Habitat for Humanity.  They use pros for some of their work, especially electrical.  Subs who have worked for them may be comfortable with your jobs.

     

     

    -- J.S.

     

  5. IdahoDon | Aug 16, 2005 04:09am | #7

    I was a board member for our local Habitat chapter and know all too well why and how contractors work with, for, and sometimes against not-for-profit organizations.  The simplest answer is to approach contractors with a well defined project, ensure timely payment, and reduce all paperwork or other hassles.

    For contractors time is money and money is money.  On the other hand, if your timeframe is flexible it would attract more contractors that could use the project as a filler during downtimes.

    Also, when budgets are tight we've had good results aproaching contractors with our best offers (price and time flexibility), even if that was well below normal rates.  We had the benefit of being able to write a check the day work was completed.  

    Along other lines, one of my past lives was working as an economic development director for a small community (pop 10,000).  Economic development grants and projects that would normally be plagued with paperwork and burocratic red-tape, would sometimes be channeled through our Chamber of Commerce which had a good track record of managing the financial end of such projects.  As a partner in the grant process, the Chamber would provide accounting services and the capability for promt payments in return for a percentage of the grant.

    As you surely know, to get more for less on a complicated undertaking such as yours, perhaps the key element is strong leadership and someone who will make the calls and develop the relationships to make the project work.  Its good to see you here doing just that!  Keep up the good fight. 

  6. donk123 | Aug 18, 2005 02:27pm | #11

    After reading Bob's note, the thought went through my mind that you might consider contacting several of the local construction unions. The way unions are going in this country, they need all the support and good publicity that they can get. You might be able to get them to team up with your people for some of the projects. I don't think it's the complete answer by any means, but it's worth some investigation.

    Also noticed that you said your group doesn't stamp the drawings. Who does? How do you get stuff through the building dept. ? If you have people on staff that are licensed, going outside for the stamp seems redundant.

    Don

    1. User avater
      draftguy | Aug 18, 2005 09:23pm | #15

      "you might consider contacting several of the local construction unions."True. One of the many options being considered. Will probably do so in the near future."you said your group doesn't stamp the drawings. Who does? How do you get stuff through the building dept. ? If you have people on staff that are licensed, going outside for the stamp seems redundant."Kind of confusing here, I know. But in over 20 years existence we've never stamped drawings. I myself am 3 parts of the exam away from registration (12 years of experience w/architecture firms . . . am too busy procrastinating to wrap it up). But I would still be uneasy stamping our drawings, even with a license. Most large cities have a non-profit 'design center' of some type, and some actually do stamp drawings. Those centers, though, usually have more than 1 architect. Ours is based on help from the Ohio State University architecture department and their students. We snag the best/most creative students and employ them for 1-2 years until they graduate. They run the majority of the projects. I oversee (along with an associate) and make sure projects at least 'resemble' contract documents, as much as possible. Our strength is creativity, but the weakness is a lack of construction/office experience. By the time our interns get a good understanding of details, sections, materials, etc., they're off to grad school and/or an architectural firm. And the way we're set up, our by-laws only allow us to hold on to them up to 3 months after graduation.Smaller projects from us go straight to a contractor, who handles the permits. And depending on who sees the drawings at the city, they may require an engineer/architect's stamp, maybe not. Anything we think should be checked by an engineer (i.e., large canopy structures) we tell the client beforehand. And any new building designs are strictly conceptual. We may include some details/sections, but nothing that could get a permit. We do our own code checks, locate easements, setbacks, right-of-ways, etc., and try to get as much preliminary information collected prior to designing so the client can take the drawings to a firm and avoid starting from scratch. For projects of this size, however, our clients are often developers, community groups, the city, etc., who are looking for ideas and concepts, rather than something necessarily 'buildable.'Edited 8/18/2005 2:41 pm ET by draftguy

      Edited 8/18/2005 2:47 pm ET by draftguy

  7. guyatwork | Aug 18, 2005 02:38pm | #12

    Here is a brief thought:  Keep in mind that while interviewing contractors, the reverse is taking place too.  A contractor is always trying to qualify the customer - right from the first phone message.  Is this guy really ready to spend money or is he just fishing?  Is this strictly a low bid situation? etc, etc. 

     

    1. User avater
      draftguy | Aug 18, 2005 09:35pm | #16

      "Keep in mind that while interviewing contractors, the reverse is taking place too."Very true. I think I answered a previous response that we may need to 'coach' our clients more about the construction experience. I think there's an unfortunate tendency for people to assume since they're spending the money, they're in absolute control. And for a contractor $10,000 may be minimal. But for a client it's a huge amount. Clients may need to ratchet down their emotions and become a little more detached/logical about their expectations. But in our defense, the first meeting always has the question "how much do you want to spend?" in it.

      Edited 8/18/2005 2:58 pm ET by draftguy

      1. BryanSayer | Aug 19, 2005 12:23am | #18

        Do you do the Angie's List? Not perfect, but at least you would have a reference of some type.

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