I posted this over on Knots but I thought I’d post it here to get additional opinions –
I’m in the process of a kitchen remodel and am having a hard time selecting a cabinet maker. I’m having a hard time distinguishing the difference in quality between the highest bid and the lowest bid. The cabinets are face frame inset doors, paint grade. My bids range from $34,000 at the high end to $18,000 at the low end.
What are the important things to look at when determining the quality of the cabinets? All are using pre-finished marble ply for the cabinets. Is all pre-finished cabinet grade plywood the same?
High end is 1/2″ plywood drawers, plywood panels for the doors. Lowest is solid maple dovetailed 5/8″ drawers with the option of MDF, plywood or solid wood for the door panels. I have an uneducated bias against MDF and am considering plywood or solid wood. Should I rule out MDF? Will it wear as well as plywood or solid wood? The cabinets will be painted. I know there’s always the concern about wood movement and cracks when using solid wood. My bathroom cabinets have solid wood doors and are painted. They’re two years old and show no signs of cracking.
How tight should the reveal be? This is the area that’s driving me crazy. Am I completely unrealistic to expect a perfect reveal for all the doors and drawers?
Are undermount, soft close Blumotion glides superior to side mounted glides? Will they last?
The island in the kitchen will be butcher block. How do I specify the material? Most people have quoted maple. Are there different grades? What should I look for.
Finally, is it reasonable to ask the cabinet maker to show me a kitchen that he’s built and installed. Everyone acts like they’re never asked to do this, with one flat out refusing. Is this an unreasonable request?
A lot of questions here. I’m hoping someone will be brave enough to tackle them.
Thanks for any info.
Matt
Replies
Greetings. I see that you're in L.A. I'm acquainted with one cabinet maker here whose office and shop are in a low rent area near Van Nuys Airport. He's been in business for many years, doing high end custom jobs at reasonable prices. If you'd like to add another bid to your list, from someone who would gladly show you one or more of his jobs, just say the word.
Hi HVC,If you have a name and contact information that would be great. Thank you.Thanks for all the information everyone.As far as being a difficult customer, I don't think I'm being one (at least not yet!). For the most part it hasn't gotten past asking for a bid and sending them a PDF of the kitchen and cabinets. All of the high bids have come from single person shops while the low bids have come from multi employee shops. Which is what I would expect. I was just surprised when I received the low bids. They were so much cheaper. There is a quality difference, but not that great of one.Thanks for the information and I'll check out the industry standards.
I would not contract with anyone who resists providing references and can show examples of their work. They should offer these without being aasked and should be happy (proud) to show off their work. If none of your bidders are in this mold, go get some new bidders. For me, that would be a discriminator.
High price does not equal quality. Go to their shopp and look at their work.
If you are really and truly going to paint them, the aesthetic appeal of solid wood is lost. Sheet good are the way to go. I think MDF takes paint better than plywood, resulting in a smoother finish.
Ask about the type of paint they will use and the method of application. Preferably, you will have specified what you want for the material and method.
The carcases, or "boxes," can be evaluated by asking: how thick are the sides? How thick are the backs? What is the size of the nailing cleat in back?
Ply sides should be at least 1/2". Backs at 1/4" are the minimum, and those cleats should be at least 5/8" thick.
I agree with the other poster about prefiished maple ply, and how any cab shop seeking to stay in business will supply good material.
Presuming you have some shelving inside these cabs somewhere, you should ask how those ply shelves are edged. A good shop will edgeband with real wood banding at a minimum thickness of 3mm (1/8"). Since he is putting it on prefinished material, you should closely examine the fit and finish of the edge banding.
Blum Tandem undermount slides with Blumotion softclose dampers are the finest slides you can get. Don't let anyone's personal preferences for sidemounts get in the way of your decision.
You will be happier with your margins if you go with composite doors, and that means either the whole door is MDF, or at least the panels. Wood moves with seasons, period. MDF moves less.
Anyone in cabinet manufacturing and sales that wants to keep and maintain a reputation, will have a good showroom, and what is on display there can be used to gage quality and construction. You need to be talking to outfits that actually have shops . . . if you are dealing with people that site build this stuff, you need to find someone else.
If by butcherblock you mean simple laminate strips, say 1.25 thickness by countertop thickness, heck, any big metro market has countertop sales places with that stuff in stock and on display. Northern hard maple is what the species is called. Your cab maker is not going to make the countertops. Go and see some at a couple showrooms, or at a big box store. It is garden variety stuff.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
If you have a name and contact information that would be great. Thank you.
I called his home and learned that he'd recently retired and sold his business. Good luck in your search.
greetings matt - and good luck to you and whomever you may choose to make/install your cabinets -
all plywood is not the same, altho I'd expect pros to use material that does not result in dissatisfaction or callbacks -
any choice out of MDF/ply/solid should give satisfaction for a painted cabinet - a valid argument could be made that MDF is the most suited for that application - panels in doors really shouldn't 'wear', and any of the materials will dent, scratch, or ding -
"Am I completely unrealistic to expect a perfect reveal for all the doors and drawers?"
define 'perfect' - there is no perfection to be found in this world - the reveals should be consistent such that your eye is not drawn to any that are tight or wide, but they will not be 'perfect', as neither the material or craftsman is perfect -
your 'butcher block' should be made of clear hard maple - is it really going to be a true butcher block with the end grain the working surface?
I think it reasonable to ask to see work produced by a shop - I'm a little surprised that you are meeting resistance from everyone -
lastly, I suggest some reflection on your part about your expectations and approach - are the shops seeing a difficult client who will be impossible to please? would you be such a client? - the impression you are leaving could be a reason for getting a high bid(s) -
best wishes -
D
It seems like you are doing a good job of evaluating potential vendors. I find it hard to believe they will not show you previous work.
One note is that 1/2 ply drawers are really not an upgrade, the solid maple with dovetails are the upgrade.
MDF door panels are fine for paint grade.
Your point about the reveals is valid and I do not believe your expectation is unrealistic.
Are the bids your getting from referred vendors? I hate to say it, but looking at former projects in not at all unrealistic. Maybe HVC up on his buddy in LA.
Bruce
GENERALLY SPEAKING, a butcher block is end-grain. A cutting board is long-grain, or face-grain. Maple is the only material approved by the FDA as food safe for commercial use.
I'm not a cabinet maker, but I believe I'd quiz them on the AWI Quality Standards, and I would insist on seeing some previous work or a list of references.
The 'soft-close' hardware ought to be fine.
As far as 'how tight should the reveals be'--see AWI Quality Standards above. Keep in mind that it is a remodel and unknown forces may be at work here.
My feeling is that you still have not given enough spcifications of either bid. The high end uses 1/2" ply. What kind, how many plys, and the jointery used along with nails and staples.
As already stated, I prefer mdf for panels because of expansion and contraction of most woods on wide doors willl show, along with grain telegraphing on wood and even plywood.
What kind of wood is used over all.
Same with what brand of doors? Decorative specialties id the premier company down there. Style of door makes a big difference too. A cope and stick detail is cheaper than a "mortise and tennon" type mitre joint. The grade of the materials for the doors will vary the cost too, even on paint grade. Some people, like me , can make beautiful doors and others' doors will look like ####. Shapers vs, router is one example.
The cost of slides will vary too. Blum motiuon, the last time I checked, $30 each. a full extension ball bbearing slide such as accuride are $10. and cheaper to install, depending on contruction. 3/4 extesion blum slides are $3.00 a pair.
Same goes fro the hinges. the brand makes a big difference, along with the mechanics of the hing and degree of swing.
The method of cabinet construction will vary too. Who is using what materials, such as chinese ply, vs American ply. Melimine on particle board is probably the uaual standard. Method of making/joint the face frames is important too. Framless cabinets will vary the price. Frameless are cheaper to build, but it takes long to install and trimm(if done correctly) Cabinets shops that specialize in one will usaully charge higher for the other because it is out of their comfort zone. Glueing and clamoing on face frames,vs nailing them on will make a difference.
As for frameless(european), they method of assembly makes a fifeerence. I have seen cabs built with drywall screws, some doweled and glue and others with specialty confirmat scresw and dowels. I'v eseen cabs built with kreig jigs and screws. The first one is the cheapest way, along with the kreig, but not very strong if you don't have the propery tools.
Depends on how hunger, say the lower guy is. Is he wanting full profit or is just trying to make wage. Is the higher price(or even the lower price guy) guy paying for salesmen, secretaries, accountanats and show rooms. Is one doing it out of this garage or does he have a full blown shop with full blown over head. If the lower guy has no employees, his prices "could" be less by 7-10% just because they don't have workers' comp.
As for my gut feeling about what YOU have submitted, it just seems that there is too little detail to justify either bid.
As for you butcher bolck, there are grades, thickness, home made or not, and edge grain vs face grain to be taken into consideration. Aslo, whether or not it is continuous lenght or finger jointed, this will affect the price too.
Any more questions, feel free to ask.
BTW, who are the companies and where is the job. What did you ues as specs for the getting quotes, such as a smallbone magazine?
Here's a site to compare different types, garades, etc of butcherblock tops. http://www.perfectplank.com
Edited 11/3/2009 2:27 pm by migraine
Edited 11/3/2009 2:32 pm by migraine
You've already gotten some good advice but I'll weigh in, fwiw. The only prefinished plywood I can buy is 13-ply birch. It looks nice but it can twist and bow. It's not what I would use for inset doors. I don't know what's available in LA but you should expect the cabinets to be built out of good quality 3'4 ply. Also, you need assurance that the finish will hold up to wet dishes, etc. The dovetail drawers are far and away the high end choice. $34,000 for plywood drawers? Shred that bid, lol. I would actually insist on MDF panels for a paint grade job. Bury your bias; it's the best paint grade material out there. Blumotions are by far the best guides. I haven't used side guides since they came out. Toss the bids of anyone who isn't happy to show you their work or talk to former clients. That's my biggest selling point. I never lose a job when I can show off my work. The butcherblock top, as was mentioned in another reply, will not be manufactured by your cabinetmaker but will be bought from their supplier. They come in 1-1/2" thick slabs, edge glued and prefinished, to be cut to fit. I'd be very surprised if they're offering anything else but you should get this clarified. Last but not least: the reveals. There's a few things in play with inset doors. The quality of the cabinetmaker is #1 but the installation will also have a huge effect on the finished product. Near perfect reveals in the shop can get tweaked easily when the boxes are screwed to the walls. The installer needs to be extremely conscientious to get the reveals to look as nice as they looked in the shop. Another factor, your house has a different environment than the cabinet shop (where I am that would mean warmer and drier). All the solid wood is likely to move a little. What you see on day 1 may not be what you'll see a month later. This might not be a big thing but you seem to want perfection. Frankly, don't take it personally but I'd run from you like a bomb scare. I have no desire to take on either inset doors (for the reasons I mentioned above) or clients who want perfection. Both on the same job? I just don't think it would end well.
Matt -
As a cabinet maker, I would need a lot more info before I could comment on the bids you have.
- How many linear feet of cabinets do you need?
- What "style" do you want?
- What "bells and whistles" (lazy susans, spice racks, etc.) do you want?
- What kind of doors (raised or flat panel, cope and stick or built up moldings)?
You mention inset doors, and I can tell you that they're more difficult to do than overlay. Nobody notices a slight error in overlay work, but inset has to be dead nuts - you can't "tweak" the hinge adjustments. - lol You also ask about the reveal. Hopefully, you realize that doors, drawer fronts, and faceframes will expand and contract and the the gaps have to let that happen.
Prefinished maple or birch ply is an excellent choice for carcasses and drawer boxes, and it doesn't need to be top of the line. Most carcasses have enough internal structure (as well as the faceframes and backs) to hold everything in place. Another advantage to prefinished is the savings during finishing.
As far as seeing the cabinetmakers work, that's really up to the customer. I show prospective customers pictures, and will give them contact info (if the customer agrees), but any tours are between them.
Hope this helps.
I don't know where in LA you are but my shop is in Monrovia and I would be happy to walk thru your project with you and give you a detailed quote with options. As far as looking at my work, I will show you several, they're never the same. I don't know what the procedure is for email addresses but mine is [email protected]
Bing
When your numbers from bids are in range, look for the cabinetmaker with oversized wrists.
That's your man.
Expert since 10 am.
As a custom cabinet maker. Heres the list I walk thru with my customers.
work triangle, needs and wants, appliances, specific kitchen tools
construction of cabinets. 3/4 inch sides no 1/2 inch
1/4 inch backs only on lowers due to cleats. uppers have 1/2 inch backs and usually 14" to 16" deep as opposed to the tiny 12" uppers and you can't fit your new dinner plates in them.
everything is built with joinery such as dados and rabbets
all hardware is soft closing, if a face frame cabinet then the frame is biscuited
NO PARTICLE BOARD EVER!!!!!!!!! Remeber matt that is custom cabinetry so you can have anything you can afford. Make sure you are dealing with someone that provide that for you. Too bad you don't live closer. Ask to walk through a kitchen that the cabinet maker did more than two years ago. That way you can really see his quality.
"When the job is perfect, we're almost done."
I disagree about the must-have for carcase sides at 3/4". I respect the fact that you build and sell custom cabs, but I have seen and built enough to know a thing or two.
His are to be faceframed, with all inset doors and drawerfronts. I would rather see him beef up the fronts to full 5/4 (1" net) and spend his bucks on that, plus really fine door hinges and catches.
In faceframed cabinetry, there have been many millions of cabinets shipped and installed in the last 25 years or so, the great majority of them with 1/2" carcase sides. You may be building them heavier with 3/4 sides, but heft doesn't correlate to longer service life or durability here.
Cabinet failures that relate to carcase side thickness are likely miniscule, as compared to the failures due to methods of fronts makeup and attachment, those related to hardware, and shelf front edges and thickness.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Well 3/4" sides are must with today standards due to the heights of uppers are now 40"to 42" tall. Time and time again 1/2" sides will bow especially when the 36" cabinet is loaded. Also 3/4" sides allow me to not put vertical dividers in most of my uppers (unless they are just too wide) and I just beef up the leading edge of the shelves. There are many things I have learned when doing kitchens. If you give them more room they will always fill it. On a $160,000 kitchen remodel over kill is the norm. "When the job is perfect, we're almost done."
Not all pre-finished ply wood is the same. And even if it's all the same wood, the finish can still vary. I don't think that should be too much of a concern though. Plywood sides is pretty standard for custom cabinets. The maple drawer boxes will suit you just fine. Are the drawer boxes going to be painted as well, or just finished natural? The solid boxes will look the best with a natural finish. There is nothing wrong with MDF for the door panels for painted cabinets, but I wouldn't pay extra for them. I'd go with solid wood for the door panels and face frames. It's very common to use solid doors with no problems. The main things to be concerned with are; The fit of the doors. Inset doors need to be darn near perfect because of the reveal. Overlay doors give alot of room for tweaking the boxes into level. Inset doors don't have that luxury. Also, the joinery is important. Are they going to mortise the frames together or use pocket screws? Both are acceptable, but in my opinion, mortise frames are a better frame. Are the frames or doors going to have a bead? Thats an easy detail to screw up. Some guys don't even know what a jack miter is let alone know how to do one. Absolutely ask to look at other jobs. Especially if you can find one that used the same style of cabinets and that are painted. Look at the fit of the cabinets in the room, and not just the construction of the cabinets. A custom cabinet shouldn't need scribe mouldings, and they should be tightly fit to the walls and ceiling. The toe kicks (if used) should be scribed to the floor. The blumotion glides are worth every penny. Even if the soft close mechanism wears out (which I don't see happening) you'll still have a drawer glide that is better than most of what else is out there. Plus, they warranty them for as long as you own them. They are extremely smooth, silent, and the boxes clip onto the glides which makes them really easy to clean out. I also reccommend the blumotion for the doors as well. Their hinges are top quality, but the soft close keeps them from slamming which really does a number on cabinets. The other thing to be concerned with is the finish. Are you painting them your self, or are they painting them? If they are painting them (which I usually recommend), check out some samples of their finishes. GIve them the finger nail test, find out how they hold up to cleaning and kitchen "substances" that may find their way on to them.
Matt,
Why don't you post that PDF here so I/we/all can take a look at it.
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