how to properly flashing a roof ????
i’m sitting here with smoke rolling out my ears,had a roof that has gave me a lot of trouble over the years,so i finally decide to put a new roof on and fix it. shingles are in good shape but decide to just rip it off and have done right. so i have 2 guys give me bids and i stress how i want this thing flashed right. so i hire one guy and have him put on 5 roofs in the last 2 weeks, seems pretty good but they are all pretty simple roofs,maybe have 2 valleys and thats it.
so he gets on this one today that needs all the flashing work and puts out a job that my daughter could do on the metal work,really sloppy,with the attitude of anything can be sealed with caulking. so i would like to find a web site or something that shows how to properly step flash,flash a chimminey, and what i will call a wall flashing.so when we do the check out monday i have them in my hand and see what they got to say.
another question,my feelings are they sent there guys out to do a job and they did it,i’m not happy. i don’t want the guys back on my roof,they had a chance to do it right and this is what they did.now either send me a good sheet metal guy or i’ll just fix it myself and go on. do you think i should let them have a second try? thanks larry
oh and i’ll go back to my saying in my profile: why hire someone to do it,i can screw it up for free.
if a man speaks in the forest,and there’s not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Replies
I'll let the pro roofers give you advice on the flashing. I think either Grant or Walter (maybe both?) have done a photo tutorial on chimney flashing recently.
As to your second question about letting them fix their mistakes. I think it would be very bad form to complain about their work and not give them a chance to remedy. If they threatened your daughter or stole your CD collection, that's one thing. But if sloppy work is the problem, I would have details in hand (like you already plan to do) explaining what you expect and let them go for it.
Everybody makes mistakes. The good guys fix their mistakes before the end of the day (or as Buck's dad said "before the client comes home and sees it") but it's inevitable that mistakes will happen. Sloppy work is a little different, but they still need to be given a second chance.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
Since you mentioned this tutorial I'll address the post to you.
This is the album I made while doing the "waiting for a crane " chimney.
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhq09w¬ag=1
Edited 4/26/2008 6:20 am ET by theslateman
JLC has two wonderful manuals, one interior, one exterior, I would recommend them to everyone. You will find most of anything in these publications.
just came from another day on the roof,i made them some flashing took it over and sat it in place,we'll see if they can figure it out.?????
they ran out of step flashing so they just ran 10' of 4x4 90 degree,that's not flying either. the reason i don't say something is these guys are all mexican and don't speak a word of english,so all i can do is point.....not with my mid finger larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I'd be pizzed too.
But... "these guys are all mexican"?
um. Which part of Mexico- Guatemala? El Salvador? San Antonio?
and more to the point- when employees don't know or care what they're doing, don't have the right materials, etc., you gotta wonder what the business owner's role in that is, no matter what the nationality.
I'd be pizzed at the company owner first... He's probably telling his guys to do all that garbage, and if anyone asks, say you don't hablo ingles.
k
Edited 4/26/2008 6:16 pm ET by KFC
i'm really not taking a dig here at anyone,i don't know where they are from,maybe they was born here in ks,maybe from canada. but they speak a languge that i don't understand and i don't know how to communicate with them.
i can't imagine how you can have employees that you can't carry on a conversation with. maybe after awhile you both can get on the same wave length and know what the other needs done.
and i am pized at the owner,it's his job to make sure they understand what they job entails,no one else.larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Larry
This link has the pictures that you want.
http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/article.asp?article_id=60348
I don't want to lecture you.
But you got what you paid for.
You knew who was on the roof thru the 1st 5 roofs.
You knew the owner/salesman/ company was using low cost, probably illegal immigrants to do the work.
I have spoken to a roofing contractor who hires alot of illegals and a federal marshall and they both told me that here in Iowa 9 out of 10 Hispanics are illegal.
I have worked with some, worked for some and I rent to some (the wife is legal and the husband is illegal and being deported). Mostly fine people. Mostly hard workers. From a landords perspective Hispanics are generally better renters. Honest, clean and pay on time. Not all but most.
That being said, we have a mess in the USA with the borders being open, nobody in Washington wants to deal with the situation. Employers are hiring and skirting the law. Federal documents are being forged wholesale and advertised in the paper.
HOs and are hiring the out of town contractors to bring in illegal workers to do the job and rejecting the bid from their neighbor who pays taxes, supports the church, the Little League and Mainstreet.
It's not just HOs either. I have heard my fellow contractors speak proudly about hiring illegal crews to do roofing and a cheap price on new, nice homes. Most drywall is now done by illegals. They don't see that they are doing something unethical and undermining their own industry and craft.
Pretty soon honest labor will be looked down upon as not worthy of a white man. It already happening.
We have alot of hog farms in Iowa and most of the labor is now being done with 1 white foreman and a crew of illegals. A hog foreman told me the illegals get notices from SS that they are using the wrong SS # and they just throw them in the garbage.
If I started using the wrong SS# I would have the Feds on me tomorrow.
What a mess.
Rich
I have started calling ICE anytime I suspect they might be illegal. Let them harass them. They will understand eventually.
I figure the job they don't do today, maybe the my job in the future.
Yes immagration service is a pain to contact, as in voice mail all the time, but they do listen and eventually they seem to get around to it.
It is a crazy situation, for sure.
The ssn thing is such a great example- you can buy a forged copy of an actual ss card with a real (hispanic) name and number for $100, and if an employer demands extra docs they can get sued. So contractors are supposed to be forgery experts now?
I was running a crew for a mid sized ($2m/yr) eq retrofit co., and the owner told me to tell "jorge" that ss had called about his ssn (i speak a little spanish). Apparently many people were paying ss taxes on that number. "jorge" had no answer, of course and left the company.
The company was running by the book, so "jorge" had been paying ss taxes for a year and a half before it became an issue. As had all the other "jorges", none of whom ever expected to see a dime of the benefits, obviously.
So, on the one hand, it seems like illegals might be saving the ss system. On the other hand, I have to compete with them for jobs. "jorge" was a real nice, hardworking family man, if that matters. I don't know what to think anymore.
I do wish I got the contract to 'virtually' build a fence an Az. for $10,000/Ft. though.
k
"So, on the one hand, it seems like illegals might be saving the ss system. "That is exactly what is happening and also the reason that no politician wants to stop it. The system is reaping billions of free tax dollars which of course is dumped into the general fund which funds pork. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I guess one sign of trouble is if your crew all has the same name and SSN.
I wonder if the illegals have a network that prevents them from hiring into a company that already has an employee with that SSN?
"I guess one sign of trouble is if your crew all has the same name and ssn"
ROTFLOL!!!
"Hey Jorge,"
"what?"
"what?"
"what?"
k
Or
"ëJorge!"
"¿Que?"
"¿Como?"
"Huh?"Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
There is a form that you are supposed to have filled out by employees, I9, this form requires other forms of ID.
It was developed sometime in the late 80's early 90's.
It appears that no one uses, probably because no one enforces this law.
Another example of a law that was written to solve a problem, illegal immagration, thatour gov. doesn't enforce. Is it any wonder that citizens have trouble with gov. solutions.
I was told by an HR person that in CA. you can get sued for asking a latino for extra i.d.
but I'll admit I don't know too much about the laws... And clearly, the owner of the company I worked for was most interested in plausable deniability of inexpensive workers. He did pay all applicable taxes, wc etc. FWIW.
k
Not if it is a federal law.
Have the hr person look it up. Another example of state and fed. law not in sinc.
Yeah, don't quote me on that either, like I said, I don't know too much about HR laws. And it is possible the HR person was just wrong, too.
But it is an odd situation- the owner of a $2m/yr. co. legally employing illegals, as long as he fires them every 18 months when the feds call. At which point, he'll hire some new ones.
It's like the worst of the temp worker and illegal worker situations combined!
And again, I have to say, "jorge" was a really nice guy, hard working, skilled, funny, family man, etc.
I know I made less per hour b/c of guys like him, but I preferred supervising him (and the other latinos) over the two tweaked out gringos on my crew...
About all I know for sure is the working man (legal and illegal) is getting reamed left and right. The owner made his profit, and the feds got their $ too.
k
and now you understand the frustration of people that say, just apply thelaw as written.
We had a turkey farm in upstate NY that stated that he could not find american workers to work on his farm, and that was why he hired illegals. Only problem was, he never put so much as 1 ad in the paper.
Then there are those that say an american won't work for what the illegals work for. This one bothers me the most, because most are not even paying min. wage.
Another one is the employers on Cape Cod who year after year hire workers from Ireland etc., getting them exemptions under the law, who applied too late this year, and are now finding americans that will do the work.
Our country is so screwed up.
first let me say there is nothing i hate worse than hiring a job done. it's easier to do it myself in most case's and go on.but since you tell me i got what i paid for i'm going to take you to task on some of these points.
"You knew who was on the roof thru the 1st 5 roofs"
did i know who was going to be on my first roof,no not really but i had a roof put on by these guys a year ago and was happy, so i hired them. were they the cheapest? no,and not the highest.but to tell you the truth most charge the same per square price,same tear off etc. so there isn't a lot of difference in price. so the guys showed up,and i will tell you and i don't want someone to think i'm a racist ####,but your the one who imply that only a white guy that was born in the us is qualified to put a roof on, there was 3 white guys and a Hispanic. now to tell you the truth i wasn't impress by there color,although i did like the idea that i could understand them.
house 2,same crew,house 3 same crew house 4&5 same crew. they did a nice job with some details covered,great job at clean up,i'm still happy.
house 6 same company but different crew,what should i have done told them to get back in there truck cause i think they might be illegals,think about if i send one of your crews back cause i don't like there color. i doubt you would send me another would ya?
"That being said, we have a mess in the USA with the borders being open, nobody in Washington wants to deal with the situation. Employers are hiring and skirting the law. Federal documents are being forged wholesale and advertised in the paper."
now to address the border thing,yeah its a big mess,but what am i suppose to do when ever i hire someone,ask if they are all white ,usa citizens. lets get down to it and i say this as a white guy,we don't like doing this hard #### work of roofing,digging,building roads in a 110 degree heat,i don't want to do it but i would ,for about 45.00 a hour with bennies. that's what some of the problem is,i don't want to pay taxes on a bridge project that cost four times as much as if i'm out there running a jackhammer. i don't know of group of people that will work harder,bitch less ,take no breaks,and be thankful to have 10.00 a hour job,do you? that's why the borders in a mess and i got no ideas how to fix it.
"HOs and are hiring the out of town contractors to bring in illegal workers to do the job and rejecting the bid from their neighbor who pays taxes, supports the church, the Little League and Mainstreet."
out of town contractors... these roofs were hailed on almost 2 years ago,why did i wait so long ?so all the flaky jakes with illegals would be gone and i would get a local guy with a local crew to do my roofs.
now i will get off my soapbox ,i ask about flashing and how to find it on the web and you gave me a great link ,thanks that's exactly what i was looking for. but i get tired of hearing "oh you get what you pay for" .shingles run about 138.00 a square here and i'll bet if i paid someone twice that i wouldn't have better than a 50/50 chance of getting a great roof.
so went with a local co.,has ins,been here for 10 years and they sent me 2 different crews,one is better than the other, and i will tell them that tomorrow when we do the walk thru. but it's hit and miss on anyone that is more than a 1 man outfit in any trade. larry
you know i actually lied,i had 3 bids. the first guy was a salesman and when i didn't jump at the price ,he told me he could get jose to come over and do them on the weekends and i could pay him a "referral fee" .yea your out here stealing from your boss and i'm suppose to trust him,rightif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
larry
i ask about flashing and how to find it on the web and you gave me a great link ,thanks that's exactly what i was looking for.
You're welcome.
I am an owner operator. I am on the roof, or in the bath or kitchen whatever, 90% of the time. We are carpenters who do roofs and whatever else comes down the pipe. Very rural around here.
I am in competition with outfits that sell a roof and then send a crew of "independent contractors" to do the job. No safety precautions and often times shoddy workmanship. I have seen one guy in the valley holding the foot another guy so he can shingle a 12/12 without toe holds. And a thrid guy on the ridge handing him shingles.
Right next door to me the neighbors hired the cheapest to put on a roof (white guys), this is the 4th layer of shingles. No new flashings, just shingle around it and shoot some blackjack.
I am not saying that only white guys can put on a good roof. What I am saying is that a good roof is in the details and many illegals don't have much training or are hired to get it done as fast as possible. Their running out of step flashing was a red flag to me.
Your example of the bridge is interesting. I would rather pay more for the bridge knowing that everyone was playing by the rules, had insurance and W/C and they were not a burden to the state if they were injured.
My problem with the illegal mess is that some white employers are profiting by the the whole situation. They are using cheap labor, they are not providing any benefits, and they are skirting the law by hiring them as independent contractors, or completely under the table with cash. And Washington likes the extra cash of the fake SS#.
Meanwhile the illegals and their families are a burden to the state, the schools and the hospitals.
When I read the local papers it is not uncommon to see Hispanic names in the traffic violations for improper documentation. Either they don't have a license or they don't have insurance. Insurance agents tell me after a traffic stop the 1st thing they do is go buy 6 months of insurance and carry that card around, but never return for continuing coverage.
I am sorry that I pounced on you about the illegal situation. It is so out of control that I don't know what to do about.
One of my renters is Hispanic. She is legal and he (2nd husband or boyfriend) is illegal. He has been working a hog farm for 8 years. The farmer paid me the rent so he could pay the guy cheaply or with cash I don't know. They are a good family the kids are in school and she works at a food processing job.
One of his coworkers got in a car wreck and the lady was killed. He disappeared and then the spotlight got focused on the farm. Low and behold they are all illegal. Now he is being deported. It will take about a year of going to court.
Because our country can't get it's act together on the border everyone in this situation is getting a raw deal.
I always like your posts and want to stay friends. Again I am sorry.
Rich
nothing to be sorry about,i was just defending myself on the "got what i paid for"like i said i hate hiring things done because you just can't count on getting a good job.and i am not good at it,there is actually some skill at hiring people to do a job well,and i don't posses it,must be why i've been a 1 man band for 30 years!
i completely understand where your coming from. i do think that one of the first problems is the attitude some of these owners have and that they really take advantage of the situation. i used to rent a commercial building to a roofer [i knew enough about him ,i didn't call him for a estimate,lol] that all his help was illegals. one day one of them falls off the roof and luckily only breaks a wrist. so one of the guys loads him up takes him to the hospital. the owner gets there and is upset that he got hurt and wc is going to go up. pulls him out of the emergency room and goes loads him on a greyhound back to Mexico with a 100.00 bill in his pocket "to fix his wrist when he gets back home".and is laughing about it while he's telling me this. i don't think i have ever thought less of a person than i did from that guy.
2 things i think create this problem .one is people that don't have a opportunity to make a living wage in their country and second is people here that want to profit from it. if i had my way the us wouldn't import anywhere near what we do,but thats not going to happen,so if we are going to import goods built elsewhere i would prefer that we imported from Mexico to give some of these people a job in there own country and let there health system etc. take care of them there.
and to make things even better here in ks you can be illegal and go get a drivers license,can you believe that!
i better shut up now or i'm liable to find my self over in the tavern.lol
just got the call to go do the walkthru on all theses roofs[i have to say i've never had a roofing company do this,so thats a point in their court]so i've printed off the flashing details you linked me to and go have some fun..... thanks larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
there are lots of manuals on proper flashing.. lots of booksCertainteed has manuals for training and installationbut what you need is the guy who signed the contract ...
and you need him yesterdaystop the job... stop the payment... stopMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Amen, amen, amen... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
really hard to stop the job,when you have a roof tore half off.
today the foreman showed up and i mentioned something that i felt was real important. this house has 3 chimmineys and these guys have stacked 3 bundles on each one,really doesn't seem like a big deal. but last night i was picking up to go and just happened to feel heat. i hadn't thought of this but when the tennants furnace kicked on,the was nowhere for it to vent . overnight it could of killed 1-4 people and we all show up this am with ems there. so i mentioned to him about this possibility,and how they should pay attention to this,didn't seem to phase him.so i just shut up.
monday we are suppose to have a "walkthru "on the roofs. i'm just going to tell him to bring the salesman and we'll have a little pow wow. fun times. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
<<<<
today the foreman showed up and i mentioned something that i felt was real important. this house has 3 chimmineys and these guys have stacked 3 bundles on each one,really doesn't seem like a big deal. but last night i was picking up to go and just happened to feel heat. i hadn't thought of this but when the tennants furnace kicked on,the was nowhere for it to vent . overnight it could of killed 1-4 people and we all show up this am with ems there. so i mentioned to him about this possibility,and how they should pay attention to this,didn't seem to phase him.so i just shut up.>>>>whadda ya mean ... "today .... what about every day... all day ?1st.... why is the whole roof open
2d ... anything that is open should be papered i and weatherproof before end of day
3d.. your ONLY control is $$$$$....STOP the JOB until they start doig what they are supposed todo you really think they're going to "FIX" any of these problems ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Larry I don't know how you choose a roofing company nowadays.
I hired a guy to do a roof three years ago and he and his brother and a friend did a good job.
This was on a plain ranch style house built in 1979. It was in Belle Aire and about 950 sq ft house. It took them two days
He still does roofing today but the way he does it now is he just lines up the jobs and his hispanic crew does the job and he probably doesn't even go up on the roof anymore.
i called 7-8 companys and got 3 to call back,all three were local guys and all have done a lot of work out west here. these guys put down the shingles fine,but where they needed to slow down and do some detail they blew it. you know ks,it will hail them off in 5-8 years and do it again.lol larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Hey, alwaysoverbudget,
I think we're done examining labor relations in America. Sorry for the digression.
How'd your moanday go? Any satisfaction with the owner or sales rep? I hesitate to ask, but I gotta know.
k
well we went on 2 roofs and evrything was fine,so i signed off on them. then we got to the problem one . we both climbed up and i didn't really say anything,after about 3 mins the guy says" we got to get this guy back up here",thats when i said i wasn't happy with it either. so i gotta give the company credit that they didn't just want to ignore it and try and get by with it.
the only thing that i didn't like was he made the comment that"this guy isn't very good on the metal work" well why put him on a roof with 3 chimmineys,135' o f step flashing.......
went on to the next one the roof looked good,but the guy had spilled oil for his gun in 2 spots on the roof! not only ugly,it's softing the asphalt in the shingle. again he just looked at it and said "we gotta fix this".
so i gotta give these guys a score of 8 so far. we'll see thanks larry if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Well all right. Recognizing the problems is a good start, let's hope they make it right.
I guess you really can't ask for more than that at this point.
Thanks for the update. I bet there's a bunch of us who'll be interested to hear the end results...
k
Larry, my roof got tested last night with the storm we had.
My roof failed the test and leaked
It leaked in the bathroom through the ceiling fan which is vented to the roof with a four inch sheetmetal flue pipe.
It rained anywhere from 1 to 2 inches here in town and we had really high winds and hail at my house at about 2 AM
I'm going to get up on the roof and look at it later.
.I'm not afraid of work - I can walk right up to it and take a nap
Edited 5/2/2008 11:39 am by mrfixitusa
that was a gully washer wasn't it!!!! i kept hoping the hail would get bigger so i could claim my new roofs and state farm could depricate them 7 days outa 30 years..............
check your flashing around your vent thats where they usally leak at.
did you happen to go to that garage sale over on 10th st ct? the guy had a ton of tools.lots of dewalt cordless ,had a almost new ridgid table saw[it was sold,dang it] has a couplenail guns. that was thurs when i was there. i didn't buy anything cause i'm so broke after these roofs i couldn't buy someone a free lunch,so i had to stay away from the tools. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?