The darn homeowner had this brilliant idea to open up further the timbers in the great room. Sure it will make the stairways much more visable and further show off all of the timbers etc.. I can even understand his wanting to do it,
Except he forgot that there are a couple of ugly looking power lines that feed electricity to the chandelier and to the ceiling spot lights..
So the architects brilliant idea was to drill down thru one of the posts. The posts are 10 feet long and on top of them sits a 12 inch wide top plate plus they sit on a six inch bottom plate plus at least inches of sub flooring. That brings a total of almost 12 feet that I’ll need to drill thru.. I can use a self feeding drill bit as small as a 3/4 inch and Milwaukee sells 24 inch extensions so if there is a way to keep the bit from wandering over that distance it’s just a matter of time..
Any suggestions as to how I can drill a hole twelve feet and not wander out of a 6″x 6″” white oak beam?
Don’t you love change orders like this?
Sometimes I hate myself..
PS (I’m the homeowner, architects, electrician, and builder so blame me)
Replies
Can you get the wire into your SIPs? Maybe sharpen the one end of a piece of conduit, or galvanized water pipe, like a hole saw, and cut a channel through the foam from above? Or is this an interior post?
Just a shot in the dark.
Bowz
No this is an interior wall with no SIP's that plus the dummy that designed this place figured on putting the wires behind a wall that now won't be there..
I don't want to hang some track and hide the wires behind this so I'm stuck with figureing out a way to drill the posts..
Just to be sure, there's no possible way to get a matching timber, say 6/4 or 8/4 and 1/2" or so shy of the width (to make a reveal), and dado the back for either the cable or the required conduit (if that's required)?
Some nice hewn bevels on the visible side of the timber to dress it up, perhaps? Maybe set the edges into a rabbet on the existing timber, so that it looks like some unique engineering answer?
I've seen a shipbuilding auger to do what you want, but they had a shipyard to use it in, too. The disassembling the auger to pull out the chips would get to be pain, a very real pain, after only the first 6 feet or so, I'm thinking. So any thing to skip, A, 12' bore; and B, 5-6 24" bit extensions assembled and disassembled x times, would have to be good.
CapnMac,
Yeh, that was my thoughts too. In fact I've got just the tool to do a cool job of it too!
It's called a grove cutter. Think of a dado blade on a skilsaw and you have an idea of what it's like.. Now it's not legal here in the US, they were imported from Japan a few at a time and sold to the timberframing trade..
In no time at all I could have two groves cut into the timber on the back side slide the cable into the deepest grove and use the shallow wider grove to hold a cover over the wire..
I could even clamp a straight edge onto the timbers and have everything line up,
but,.. there is no way that won't be noticed and it will detract from the mass and solidarity of the timbers.. (plus I know you guys, you'd drive up here just to camp outside my doorstep with I sign that say's frenchy screwed up, ;-)
that won't be noticed and it will detract from the mass and solidarity of the timbers
Well, there's that--but I was half thinking of maybe a straight dado for the wires/conduit, but with maybe a coffin-shaped 1/8" "cover" that would look like a dutchman or the like.
plus I know you guys, you'd drive up here just to camp outside my doorstep with I sign that say's frenchy screwed up
Naw, not while the Texas weather is still nice <g> . . .
Besides, I'd have to ditch the line of folks pointing out my screwups . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Capnmac,
I'm certain your political party would reward you well once they found out you were going to harass that known liberal Frenchy, ;-)
your political party
Easy now, I'm mad at them, they asked and asked for party contributions. So I send them chips & dip. Do I get even the offer of a beer? Naw, stuck-up tightwads . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
As soon as I read this post I thought of that outta sight groove cutter of your's. Thought about mentioning it, and figured you would have already thought of that, and that you would have found it an unacceptable solution.
Since I couldn't think of any real sage advice about the 12' boring, and knew I couldn't get you to drop your standards (having seen your work), I thought I would have a little fun with my picture request.
I know you will come up with some solution. If you need an extra set of hands with whatever you come up with, shoot me an email - it would be good for me to get out there again.
Keep thinkin,
Shoe
just give us a heads up on when this will be going down so we can look over your shoulder.As for the "groove cutter".is that the skil saw with the stacked blades for gang cutting birdsmouths.if so i have been looking for one.Any info would be good.
thanks Greg.
Fishdog,
No! it's made by Mikita and not imported to this country, ( ground consists of an alligator clip on).. if you are looking for one you might try the timberframing sites, but make sure you get many heads with it.. I've seen some with only one or two often dull cutters and that isn't really what that thing is all about..
There are darn few places that are set up to sharpen the cutters but when they are sharp this machine is absolutely awsome at doing what it does.. take a white oak timber and cut a grove 1 1/2 deep and 2 inches wide as fast as you'd cut thru a 2x4 with a sharp skilsaw..
The chips fly out of the discharge chute in a stream like a fire hose and when you ook the grove is so smooth you'd swear it was sanded and polished.
buy a 6x6 post from the lumber yard and give it a test?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff,
I've got twenty or so spare ones in the pile in my driveway But I know that with no way to guide it it'll wander off sure.. Plus drilling a hole like that is gonna be a royal pain in the posterior if I did it successfully once what chance do you think I could repeat the results?
What I'm hopeing is that someone knows of a way to see into the timber, you know like a portable x-ray machine or something..
That's the ticket -- You need an x-ray machine to find out where the bit is going inside the wood. You'd have to shoot two pix each time, one North-South, the other East-West (or should that be an x-ray and a y-ray?) Anyhow, once you know where the bit is going, the other thing you'd need is a poweful magnet, like out of an MRI machine, to pull it back towards the center. Make the bit hollow, blow compressed air down it to clear the chips, and you're good to go. ;-)
-- J.S.
John,
It sounds rather impractical when you put it that way but how do boat builders do it? I mean they run ship augers into hulls and some of those need to be extremely long.. It would seem that they really need to be accurite or the propshaft will rub.. I can't imagine they could predrilll since the exact alignment of a motor can't be easily predicted can it?
What about...........
If the posts have square corners, rout all corners to a lambs tongue kinda detail, top to bottom. Do the routing on one corner deeper than the rest. Rout a groove in the bottom of that for the wire.
Then, rout the same lambs tongue detail on a spare post with similar colour and grain, rip that whole corner off and apply the sucker to the one hiding the wire. Run a raised bead down all corners at the same location as the joint. Sand and finish. All gone. :-)
Just an idea.
As punishment, you should send all your black walnut to me. Its the right thing to do.........
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
AJ inNZ
Interesting idea. I already have something like that as an edge detail on all of my posts (or all of them when I get to them)
You know your idea really has merit!
As punishment I intend to post some black walnut to you soon, e-mail me with your address please..
> I can't imagine they could predrilll since the exact alignment of a motor can't be easily predicted can it?
I'd think what they'd do is shim the motor to align with the actual position of the hole.
-- J.S.
you have worked on too many films dude......
I would work ....
On a hill by the harbour
Are there two post to be exposed? Could you put a decorative element in both to hide the screwup? A CAST (Creative As s Saving Tec) so to speak. Use some of that walnut burl or flame drop offs up . maybe do some fancy carvings into the accents.
No one has screwed up yet.but were watching.
20 ft long bit ...
10 ft long conduit to act as a guide.
Now all ya gotta do is open the fisrt floor and set a ladder in the basement to stand on?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Isn't this light mounted on a truss of some sort with the post part of the truss.
What about rerouting the whole wire so that it runs along the top side of the bottom cord.
Actually Bill,
The part over the scissor trusses is already dealt with, what I need is to find a way to hide the wire on the back side of the post that doesn't look like I forgot..
Frenchy: The post is not in place, yes? Otherwise, how could you be trying to drill a hole down the middle?
Anyway--why not slice the post in half, use your router to make a groove and glue the thing back together? If you get some glue, now you can run your drill bit down the hole to clean things up.
And yes, they do make gun-boring drills for wood. I have seen utility poles with holes drilled down the middle, but as said above, you also need one monster lathe.
a. Slice an inch off one side of the post.
b. Rout a groove for wire.
c. Glue slice back.
d. Shoot architect.
People's dreams are made out of what they do all day. The same way a dog that runs rabbits will dream of rabbits. It's what you do that makes your soul, not the other way around.
- Barbara Kingsolver
Mike,
Post is in place, morticed and tennioned thus unable to remove post without taking house apart..
Dumb architect is lined up on the wall waiting for someone to put him out of his misery..
I’ve been meaning to send this one in to the Tips Column for whatever they were going to send me:
I had to drill down through a top plate and a weird header that extended several feet past a door opening. The depth I needed was about 30 inches.
Here’s the tool I made:
Take a cheap spade bit, a 3’ length of 1/2” all-thread. (you could probably use 3/8”)
Clamp the bit in a vise and file the ridges on the hexagonal end until it’s pretty close to round. Taper the end just a little. Leave the bit sticking horizontally in the vise with that end sticking out.
I used a drill press for this next part.
Drill a 1/2” hole in a length of 2x4. thread a nut and washer on the all-thread, and push it up through the hole in the drill press table, put a nut and washer on the other side. You want the all-thread as vertical as possible and clamped so you can drill a centered hole.
Now drill into the center of the all-thread one drill size smaller than the filed shaft of the bit. I think the bit shaft will come out about 5/32 if so than 9/64 should be the drill size you’ll need to drill into the shaft. (Ideally the difference would be a 1/128th)
Drill in about 1 to 1-1/2 inches.
Ream out just the very end of the hole so that it just fits onto the taper of the drill shaft-you just need this to get it started onto the drill shaft.
Here’s the neat part:
With a propane torch heat up the drilled end of the all-thread. But not anywhere near the drill bit. You want that to stay cool.
When it’s good and hot, slip it onto the end of the shaft and then take a sledge hammer and pound on the other end of the all-thread forcing it onto the shaft.
What you’ve done by heating up the all-thread is cause it to expand-making the hole large enough to accept the drill shaft. When it cools it’ll contract and you’ll never be able to get them separated again. (Some router bits are made this way) If you can’t drive the all-thread onto the shaft, stop trying, take it off the shaft, cool it off and ream out the hole some more-but never use the same size drill bit as the shaft. When you’ve got it on the shaft, saw off a few inches of the all-thread where you were hammering on it.
It’s a brutal primitive process, but all you’ve risked is a $2 drill bit and a length of all thread.
You can put a 1/2” spade bit on a half inch shaft or any size larger. If the bit breaks, get dull, you can just saw off the last couple of inches of the all-thread.
If you want you can now add as many lengths of all thread as you want, but after using long nuts I would drill them and put a pin through to keep them from unscrewing inside the wall.
Though this might not be the best solution for the guy who asked thequestion, I find that it’s a great tool-especially after you’ve gone to the hardware and paid money for one of those cheap bit extensions that just bend or snap off as soon as you try to use them.
Will Nettles
I like WillN's idea. It limits the # of extensions and the 1/2" threaded rod is LESS likely to wander, but it will along a 6' bore. Maybe if you use that idea along with the copper pipe idea, hmmm....Using compressed air to periodically clean out the sawdust is a great idea too.One last thing. You can probably get a machine shop to join a 30" x 1/2" threaded rod to a 3/4" bit with greater precision. An out of alignment bit would be disasterous along the length you are boring. Also, if the thing did disconnect while drilling, add another day to get it out. A magnet won't work because the bit will be stuck pretty well in the wood.Another last thing: Consider an auger instead of a spade bit. A sb with a 1/4" shaft might still wander a bit.F
Frankie,
There is a ceiling above so I can't use a full 12 foot length to drill the whole way. I've got about 5 feet clear if I leave about a foot for the drill.
Right, that's why you do it in 30" segments, Each segment uses a connecting nut to be joined to the next threaded rod in line. As for the copper pipe, only the first 2' - 3' are effective to discourage wandering at the bit.As an alternate to a full length anti-wobble feature, I would use short (2" - 3") segments of pipe, with the interior wood dowel/ spacer, to maintain center, and a couple of nuts to hold each in place. Shaft wobble would facilitate wandering below.The copper pipe will come out of the hole each time you remove the drill bit assembly because its ext dia. is the same as the bit.Voila!F
Modification: Use 3 lengths of 48" x 1/2" threaded rod since you have a 5'+ headroom. You can use2" segments of copper pipe, soldered to washers, resting on nuts that are then threaded onto the rods every 16".Go SLOW so the tendancy for the bit to wander is overriden by the resistance of the copper pipe to keep things straight.Lots of luck. Let us know how it works out. I am curious how/ what you will charge for this. Take and post photos.F
Frankie,
The contractor has it on a cost basis, that is everything will be my cost and there is absolutely no chance of profit on this (unless I come up with a really clever way to do this and sell the idea)...
Sounds like you're a poor contract negotiator -- no chance of profit and lots of chance for loss.
Maybe this would help?http://www.brudersmt.com/deephole.htm
so did U just rout out a deep dado yet and simply fill it back in with a matching grain pattern yet?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
come on Jeff, Frenchys looking for the most complicated way of doing it.
Your idea is much to easy!
Try again
Doug
You do know that all of us are going to want to come and watch while you carry out this operation, right?
:-)
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
Thanks for the vote of confidence in my All-thread long drill bit, but drilling down through the endgrain would be a major drag.
Rout out a channel for the wires or conduit and then cut a 'veneer' to cap the whole side to cover the groove. It the cap is 1/8" thick and out of very similar material no one will ever see it. You could even slice it off the edge of the existing post-but that would probably be too difficult. Did you know that Morris Chair legs with vertical grain on all four sides are all four pieces of wood that meet at the corners?Also, (I should be doing something else but ...) I remember a log home in Michigan my dad worked on. All the logs had about a 1" to 1 1/2" hole right through the middle. Can't think of any reason to core every single log, but they all were. The other solution is to blacken a piece of condit like it was wrought iron, or whatever else would fit the style and run it up the outside of the post.
The hole bored int he center keeps the drying stress from cracking the outside of the log.
That's the method my father used to put cast iron locomotive wheels onto steel axles -- That plus freezing the axles to maximize the temperature difference.
-- J.S.
Maybe you should put the heat on the wood, not the all-thread.With the right setup you could arrange an electric heater that would burn a hole through the wood. Of course, you might burn down the house, but that's the price we pay for advanced technology.Another idea that could be used with either drill or burn method is to let gravity keep things centered somehow. This could be as simple as regularly raising/lowering the bit, but it would help if the bit was designed so that it cuts on its outside edges a bit, vs just cutting on the front.
John D
No the post is in place and pulling the posty out would entail taking the whole house apart. Everything is morticed and tennioned together..
Seems like that situation comes up often .I usually router it out with a large v groove and try to match the grain with the ripped piece as best i can .Sometimes it goes away sometimes it doen"t.But it sounds like you have figured out out to drill a 12' hole ."impressive".how about ovesisizing the hole enough to slide in a rigid straight peice of pipe to see which way the bits wandering.Drill a foot ,pull it out stick the pipe in and site it.
In old issue of "Remodeling", at least I think that was the mag, they had some guys on the back page who did just that.
They were using 6x6 posts and they wanted to reduce the risk of checking so they bored an 1" hole down the middle. They welded a bit extension on to a 10' shaft.
If you set up some horses that are flat you should be able to build some jigs to stay straight. As Buck said, I would test on a SYP 6x first.
Jon Blakemore
It would be so much clearer what you are asking if you would post a picture.
if you would post a picture
LoL!
[thump onto floor]
Don't you remember how long it took to get photos of maison frenchy?
Pics were worth the wait; but still . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
What? There were pictures of Maison Frenchy? I missed 'em.
There were pictures of Maison Frenchy? I missed 'em.
Yeah, in the Photo Gallery--don't ask me to remember the thread title.
Showed the famous turret and everything.
Want to say that his daughter got blame/credit for the posting.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Yes, I remember well. The photo request was certainly just to have a little fun with Frenchy. Maybe I should have put an LOL afterwards - I didn't even get a response from him.
It is certainly a project to be seen though. I was out there a year or so ago and posted a few pics here. He is certainly putting his heart into that place. It is awsome to walk through.
Shoeman,
Sorry, I wasn't in a great sense of humor, that stupid architect and the dumb contracter caused me plenty of embaressment and when you add my stupid inability to post pictures it drove me over the edge.. I'll tell you if I wasn't related to them both by accident of birth, I'd take them both out back and kick their butts..
When you add the crazy ideas that the homeowner comes up with then you can see my point.. I'll tell you one thing, the homeowner will be darn lucky if the contractor lives to see this place finished. Just the other night he dreamt of another way to add several more years to the project. NOW he wants a mahogany library.. no not an ordinary mahogany library, nah that's too easy.. What the stupid fool wants me to do is go down to Central America find some sawmill that happens to have some stunning mahogany and bring it back himself..
Can you imagine it? A fat old out of shape guy trapesing thru the central American jungles looking for the lost sawmill?
I should kick the homeowners butt while I'm at it!
PS Come on over any time your'e bored
Sorry, didn't mean to kick you while you were down. Really meant to lighten your spirit a bit.
Sounds like the copper pipe thing might work for you.
You know you gotta kinda expect some things like this - happens all the time. Especially when your general contractor is really a moonlighting heavy equiptment salesman.
Can't blame it all on the general though. Hell to keep everything straight when the homeowner is changing his mind all the time and adding more complications with every step.
And the Archy - lets not even get into him - them guys are always the same. Dream up cool creative wild ideas with no forethought on how the heck the carps are ever going to be able to actually make these things happen in 3D.
Maybe it is time you had a sit down, face to face meeting with the Archy, General, Lead Carp, and Homeowner - gotta couple mirrors?
Don't forget water, sun screen, insect repelant, and perhaps a firearm on your trip to the mahogany lumber yard.
All the best,
Shoe
will see if I can make it by some day, think I still have your phone number
What Cap said!
Frenchy
If I understand it you have the post in place. I would route out a dado, top to bottom. Put your wire in there, I suppose you could put it in conduit.
Then cut an exact piece to fit back in the dado.
Do some sanding, rough(blend) up of the post and nobody will be the wiser.
I think Cap mentioned the same thing.
Doug
Bow saw.
People's dreams are made out of what they do all day. The same way a dog that runs rabbits will dream of rabbits. It's what you do that makes your soul, not the other way around.
- Barbara Kingsolver
How much room do you have on top or underneath? Could you build a drill bit out of steel pipe by having some carbide teeth welded on the end? Or how about blasting your way thru with a big sandblaster. If the wood is dry it would be duck soup.
If it has to be done..there is always a way.
With that many pros involved in the process, it'll be hard to know who to sue. ;)
Router a shallow groove down the middle of three faces, and a deeper one on the 4th face for the wiring... then cap the groove by tapping in a long piece of decorative cherry or some other decorative species.
You'll have to do each post, so that to the owner it'll look like it was planned all along.
Another way is to say f'it, and run your wiring into a nicely painted metal industrial conduit. Conduit will be visible, but the industrial look is in.
OK, I have been thinking about this for a while and think I have come up with a method. However, let me begin by saying the Arch is a helmet head who figures he's got nothing to loose by asking. Be sure to charge $$$ so that the Arch and Client understand/ appreciate the difficulty, and the experience and skill needed to execute the request - also just in case it takes longer than you estimate.
First, get a number of lengths of 3/4" copper pipe. Each length will be determined by the lengths of the drill bit extensions. (1 ext = pipe #1, 2 exts = pipe #2, 3 exts = pipe #3...)
Second, get a dowel that has the same diameter as the interior of the copper pipe. Cut the dowel into 1" lengths and drill a center hole which has the same diameter as the bit extensions' shank. Rather than use a dowel, you could bore disks out of 2 layers of 3/4" plywood. That way you would get a centered hole as a bonus.
Third, get a drill bit the same diameter as the 3/4" copper pipe. If it is bigger, there may be enough room for the bit to wander.
Fourth, create an assembly of a 1" dowel section jammed into each end of the copper pipe with the extensions passing through. You might also want to include interior spacers that don't need to be as tight to the interior wall of the pipe but which serve to keep the exts from wobbling during drilling.
The pipe basically serves to keep the bit centered within the axis you are drilling so it won't wander along the long bore.
I would also have a length of 1/2" copper pipe to help cleanout the debris. The sawdust might picked up by jamming it into the bore or you could tape it to a wet/ dry vac hose and vacuum it. The 1/2" pipe would allow for the replacement of air so the vac could suck up the sawdust.
Just a few ideas. Hope they work or help you think of a better solution.
Frankie
Edited 4/19/2005 1:53 am ET by Frankie
THanks Frankie,
That's the first really creative idea I've heard.. Use the copper pipe to verify that the hole is going straight! I'll have to pull the drill out frequently anyway or the wood chips will pack up and jam everything.
I can wrap my lazer on the side of the post and verify by measurement that everything remains straight. If I see the hole wandering off It's relatively easy to correct before the bit wanders too much and makes a hole where one isn't wanted..
great idea!
You gotta yank out that whole mess (probably disassembling multiple joints due to overhead clearance problems) to clear out the drill dust. Figure doing it at least every 6", probably more often than than.Also, keep in mind that with that scheme, if it does wander (and grain of the wood will make it want to), then you have no way to bring it back on course.
Is this hole in the post so you can get power to the lights + a switch to control them or is it mainly for the switch . If you can get power to the lights by a seperate route and then only need a seperate way to control it use a radio control switch with a hidden relay near the lights ( available at HD ) . I did this trick on a CBS home in fla to get around drilling a hole in the concrete walls (actually 2 3 way switches)
THat's a thought Dude,
I was thinking of having a switch on the post but that would mean that I'd always have to go over to the stairs to turn on or off the lights.. Your idea sounds better..
Set up a microwave transmitter in the corner of the room, and a receiver up on the ceiling. Of course, you'll have to transmit enough microwave power that it would fry anyone who walked into the beam, so it might be good to place some sort of furniture in the area that will keep people from wandering over close to the transmitter.
Beyond that, I don't think there is a good way, short of hiring a well driller. One problem you'll have is sawdust building up in the hole, so you need some sort of hollow shaft you can blow compressed air through to keep it clear. Probably a long piece of iron pipe with a Forstner attached to the end is about what you'd have to do. And you have to drill vertically (up or down) to keep the pipe from sagging and going off course.
You might check if there is a machine shop in town that can handle large (long) pieces.
A well trained troupe of carpenter ants?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Yhe American Indians would burn out the logs for dugout canoes . How about a hot pipe or bar an burn your way into the center . When we worked on the 1837 replica of the John Deere plow the blacksmiths would heat the steel red hot and push it into the oak frame to make small holes or to enlarge others.
That might be a way to bring your other drilling device back to center if it were to go off course.
commercial lock and hardware installers drill holes thru 3 and 4 foot wide doors all the time to install wiring to elect and security mechanisms. Electricians have long flexible drill bits (i have seen 6 footers) and a guide they use to aim the drill bit. it takes some practice.