*
Ryan,
I too had a job offer for more than I typically make in a year, but I had to turn it down because I believe I will eventually (soon?) make as much or more than that offer. Or maybe it isn’t even about the $$$. It just might be about how you want to live your life.
Although I don’t mind dealing with potential customers (sales), I would prefer to practice my craft. But these two things are inextricably linked for the self-employed. I am working on improving my close ratio to minimize wasted time. To that end, I have read whatever I can find about sales and estimating recently.
And you know what? One of the only things I have ever printed from the ‘net about sales was a post from YOU!!!
It was a response you made on Nov. 30, ’99 to a thread called “Need help closing deals”.
Do not let go of your dream!
Good luck with your decision,
Bear
Replies
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I'm really enjoying being my own boss except for one thing. I hate sales.
I've been here on breaktime saying how important sales is and that we (I) need to learn it. I do believe this and I have been working hard on learning sales. I'm getting better. I'm actually proud of how much better I am than I was a year ago. But I still hate it and always will.
I'm a small time contractor and hiring a sales person is out of the question.
So...I used to work for this big corporate healthcare company as a director of maintenance. My old boss has moved up and is now property manager of my whole state (maybe 100 buildings) and has been after me for a couple of years to come back into the company.
I finally decided to go see him about it this morning.
I've been offered several positions to choose from just to get me back into the company with the understanding that I'm looking for more responsibility and more money as soon as something opens up.
I really liked working for this company and the pay would be pretty good (better than what I'm making on my own now)
I'm supposed to call him on Monday to talk about salary.
So, why am I posting? Because I'm hoping that somebody has a suggestion for how I can stop hating sales so much.
Has anybody got a magic bullet for getting work without having to go through the performance and proposal writing, and wasted time with home owners that don't sign?
Please give me a reason to stay on my own.
*Ryan - I understand your dislike of sales - I feel the same way. Something struck me from reading your post. You said they "ffered several positions to choose from just to get me back into the company with the understanding that I'm looking for more responsibility and more money as soon as something opens up."How about staying on your own until something opens up ? Just a thought, maybe looking at it from a different perspective. Best of luck whatever ya do............
*After 25 years of being my own boss and owning my own businesses I have come to the conclusion that the days of the one man show are numbered. There is no way one person can be good in all the areas necessary to run a successful business. We are serial computers in a parallel world. A large corporation such as you describe has specialists not only in selling, but in pensions, healthcare, worker safety and a myrid of other ares that are important to the individual working. Even if you can find competent subs in these areas, where will you find the time to deal with all of them? Work is not a hobby, but an economic endeavor to to be maximized. Wealth, from what I can gather, is the freedom to spend your time as you see fit. If you are independently wealthy, by all means continue doing what you love, and if it doesn't sell, so what? Otherwise, you will no more be an excellent salesman than you would be a jouryneman an a trade different from your own. Good luck,Dennis
*Dennis said "Work is not a hobby, but an economic endeavor to to be maximized. Wealth, from what I can gather, is the freedom to spend your time as you see fit. If you are independently wealthy, by all means continue doing what you love,"I would turn that around a little and say - if you are doing what you love, you ARE spending your time as you see fit, you ARE wealthy. Irregardless of your financial standing. You have mentioned young children a few times Ryan, and believe me, I know the pressures a young dad can feel. But if what you really want to do is build, and you compromise that dream, your life will be at least slightly diminished. It will affect all your relationships and every other part of your life. Of course place the interests of your family ahead of your personal ambitions, but follow your heart. This is not a practice life. Beyond all that, our profession would be lessened by loosing the likes of you.
*Hey Ryan,I can't help with the sales thing. I've had some of the same problems that you mentioned, and gotten egg on my face a few times as a result. Too bad it's that important to you, because I'll bet you've got some real strong reasons why you're in business for yourself. For me, I have other petty things I fight with, like the tax hassles, insurance, legal complications, employee headaches (not now, but in past), customer difficulties, money shortage, and other stuff too, BUT...I just can't work for someone else. I hate being told what to do, how to do it, when and why. I don't like adhering to some bosses idea of a schedule, and I have always felt underappreciated and underpaid along with it. I'm just the worst company guy I know. I don't like being put into job situations where I'm picking up the slack for some malcontent who spends his time pissing off everybody with his crude verbage, bad smell, and dismal taste in music, whether it's one guy or twenty, a lot of times this is enough to shut it down for me all by itself.Sound like whining? Maybe, but I solved it 15 years ago--and I pay the price every day, so I believe that gives me a solid right to my opinion. I'll be on the job. I'll work with people I want to be there with, for the most part. The work will get done. I'll have my coffee there, maybe my dog, I'm not worrying much about my tools "wandering" or being messed with. If I want to take a few hours or a few days off, it's my decision and I'll be the one who pays for that, but I CAN, and don't have to clear it with some dink boss who doesn't even care.By the way, I got a job offer recently. The contractor told me to name my price. I told him he couldn't afford it. He looked puzzled, but maybe you get it!At least you know what this company is like. That should be a huge factor for you. Best of luck to you, if you work for them, they got a heck of a good guy.MD
*Ryan:Ron's advice is probably better than he knows. You say:"I've been offered several positions to choose from just to get me back into the company with the understanding that I'm looking for more responsibility and more money as soon as something opens up."I have worked for a few large companies in the past and can tell you that the "more money" portion of your statement will likely not be that significant. It may seem like a bold statement, but large companies just don't hand out 25% 30% or 40% raises. If it i everdoes happen, it's a very unusual circumstance - promotion or not. Not unless you can get several promotions in a short period of time, or do something risky like switch to sales :^).Going into the company will be your only chance to bargin in a big way. Wait until they can offer you the money you want/need/deserve. Otherwise, all you have is a promise that the "check is in the mail."
*MD,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Ryan,Boy do I know your dilema.I quit contracting for good about 5 years ago & went to work for HQ teaching DIYers. Funny thing, I never sold my tools & kept my connections. When it started going south I found a job with another contractor that payed VERY WELL. Here's the rub. The day my new job started, my Mom in law went in for surgery for cancer. this is when I found out family oreinted meant their family, not mine. After trying to balance both my family crisis & the new job (which paid the price & there fore I did also for putting my family first) I went back to HQ where I didn't have to think & really didn't care too much. I told them I wouldn't stay but they needed help they put up with me, kinda. With a child starting school, A wife who also worked & ongoing issues with the mom in laws health, the only option was to go back to contracting. I can arrange my schedule to drop off or pick up my son. I can attend the events & conferences. My dad never could because of work. That was his sacrifice. My sacrifice is I wear so many hats & have no one to depend on to make the sales or stay late & finish the job (ok, a couple of my subs will) but me. It sucks. Mom IIn laws cancer is back with a vengance & I have had to drop things to deal with it at a moments notice several times over the last 4 months (this also sucks). I did not have that ability & still keep my job before.You can learn to do a better job of qualifiying your leads & improve your sales. You may never spring out of bed loving that part of the business, but in any job there seems to be something that one has to put up with.Good luck, there is no easy answer.
*...Ryan....had to go back to the top and reread your post to make sure I understood....1) and the order ain't important...I've been thru a couple of these economic cycles now...and part of the problem is we're in a boom...so the pressure is there to deliver...but it is also there for companies to hold out the carrot to lure us in....If you go to work for a big company (with a bottom line) you may or may not be the one who gets downsized when the cycle turns down...if you're one of the guys the lured in with the big bucks, you may or may not be the first one let go if things get tight.....2) You control your destiny as a self-employed person, and it gets kinda lonely with no one to back you up...but you know that you can do anything if you have to.. at least as long as your health holds up....workin ' for the man always involves them getting their pound of flesh....3) Some of my younger friends in the trades talk to me about job security, and benefits, etc....here's what i think...Municipal...State.... and Federal workers...they've got it...the rest of us have to take care of ourselves, wether we're working for ourselves or a larger company..I get the feeling that business is in such a state of change that you can't count on anything except yourself....I'm guessing you're about 35 (boy ,could I be wrong) so you give 25-30 years to this company your friend works for and you get to retire....you have to balance the odds.. will they still be in business? if they go out or get bought out will I get another job ? Or shoud I stick with being in business for my self with all its perils and trials and challenges and learn how to do the things I'm weak in?4) I ALWAYS thought selling sucked..then I slowly started to understand that everybody is in sales... the product is always the same..b ourselves..........If you go to work for a company , you've got to sell your bosses that you are the employee they want to promote... give raises to... get that great assignment...keep on the payroll if they're downsizingHow secure is your friend who is making the offer, and why can't he make you the offer you want instead of this TEMPORARY one ?5) Here's what I believe about sales... I'm offering my customers the opportunity to hire someone who will give them their money's worth...for the job we're discussing , they can't get anyone any better.....they may get lucky and hire someone just as good, or they may get unlucky and hire a disaster..but if they hire me, and they pay my price, I have just the right amount of money in that price so I can DELIVER what I spec.....Sometimes I get that message across and sometimes I don't...I really believe it though, so it's important that I develop the skills to help them understand ....... what a great opportunity they have to have a company of hardworking , honest, cheerful, helpful, creative, clean, experienced, builders they are about to have working on their project.... and I take my lumps ALL the time... just try to keep it in perspective...So , bottom line, I don't think there is a gold ring for us in the private sector, working for a big company....I think those days disappeared in the 80's.. and now welcome to the global economy....b Hey, but what do I know .....
*Ryan, how about a partner or going to work with an established contractor who would appreciate you as the number two guy.What exactly about sales don't you like? I learned from a guy in Houston, selling carpet cleaning.He ran away from home as a teenager and learned sales as a carney.I went on to sell more carpet cleaning, I ran a telemarketing phone room, sold cars and sold high end security systems.The high end sales had me thru several sales courses and big name seminars....but nothing matched the street level education that Ron Magnole came up with.He learned the desire to sell by living in a tent on the beach and eating from trash cans.Part con-man part sales genius.It can be taught and it can be learned.To a degree it depends on your personality. If you like people, you can sell. If you're a quiet ,reserved type, it's hard.Seems to me from your previous posts, that you care about your customers and take pride in your product.So to try to help, what exactly don't you like about the sales process?For me, the sales end feels natural and I had good teachers.More importantly, I hate working for others.I like the freedom of self employment in the big picture.I feel as if I'm creating something here.In the end I gotta be happy, simple as that.My last year of full time sales, I had alot more money and was miserable.Now ,as planned, what little money there is goes back into the business.I eventially plan to go into rehab housing and rentals, and then I'll only sell jobs for the fun of it!I'll be even more of my own boss then!Hear the salery on Mon., then tell them you need time.They've waited this long, they'll wait some more.Jeff
*Ryan, I too had a job offer for more than I typically make in a year, but I had to turn it down because I believe I will eventually (soon?) make as much or more than that offer. Or maybe it isn't even about the $$$. It just might be about how you want to live your life.Although I don't mind dealing with potential customers (sales), I would prefer to practice my craft. But these two things are inextricably linked for the self-employed. I am working on improving my close ratio to minimize wasted time. To that end, I have read whatever I can find about sales and estimating recently. And you know what? One of the only things I have ever printed from the 'net about sales was a post from YOU!!!It was a response you made on Nov. 30, '99 to a thread called "Need help closing deals".Do not let go of your dream! Good luck with your decision, Bear
*Ryan, there's a lot of very moving commentary here. The one observation I have is I've learned that if you hate your job it doesn't just ruin your workweek, it ruins your whole life. You don't say anything good about the corporate job other than it won't involve sales. I think you already know you should take a polite pass on the offer. (Don't burn the bridge.)As a free-market liberal and unlike Fred, I don't believe there's any "vast left-wing conspiracy" to brainwash people with the negative salesperson stereotype. There are enough bad salespeople out there to do the job themselves -- tried to buy a car lately? a stereo? I won't do business with the creeps. But there are MANY good ones who really want to work with the customer and get them what they want, realizing the benefit of a good long-term relationship over this quarter's sales numbers. I look for someone who is just as interested in you after they make the sale as before -- someone like you.I am uncomfortable with sales, too. I worry that I'm going to come across wrong or something -- like a crook or amateur -- and I hate it when the customer gasps at the quote (the prices are fair! it's just some people don't realize how much this stuff costs, I sure didn't) or heaven forbid rejects me. Is your reluctance anything like that? I've been busy enough with good-quality referrals, which are more likely to have a cup of coffee waiting when you get there.BTW, it's getting a whole lot easier, I'm far less tentative -- customers want confidence -- and I do enjoy meeting new people and helping them out.
*.......Ryan...went back to the well again......you are talking about a "big corporate health care company"...here in RI and Massachusetts, the #3 "Harvard Pilgrim" has been put into receivorship and the number 4, "Tufts Medical " has also posted huge losses....I think Health Care is an industry that is headed for bigger and bigger consolidations, with all of their employees looking over their shoulders...are you sure this ain't a "grass is greener" type thing we all go thru now and then ?
*Ryan, I think you've agreed that working for yourself is your preference. You simply don't like sales. Ask yourself why you don't like sales. Maybe you feel you're not successful at it? Maybe you don't have any standard against which you have measured yourself?If the average in the industry is 9 out of 10 calls is a sale then you and I would surely be failures. If your success rate is 25%, I would think you're doing average or better. In my specialty, you've got me beat by 200%But I know the success rate in my specialty is low and that's something that comes with the territory.My 2 cents for what it's worth - work the success/failure rate of proposals etc into your expectations and plans and enjoy being your own boss.
*Ryan, There's nothing better than controlling your own destiny! Bottom Line is If you believe in what your selling (yourself and your talent ) than its not hard! I too dislike estimates and time away from my family because all my estimates are done on the weekends and nights. In time if you do the job right for a fair price and treat people right and complete the job the way you stated you would , then getting or selling jobs will be a piece of cake! Here's what I've found, People with money are cheap on the whole ! Its always how much , how much from the second you meet! People who saved every penny to achieve a home improvement are always my best customers, they always talk more about the job than the cost and when your done their dying to pay you so the money doesn't get spent somewhere else or because they're so appreciative! Its just another bill for the money people! Now they're are always your exceptions on both sides, I don't want to stereotype every one! Do a great job!!! Everything else will fall in place! Word gets out! Stay self employed!! I go to all my daughters doctors appointments ( 2yrs old, Alot of standard shots and she needs her dad there! Can't do that easy when you work for someone else! Steve
*Ryan, you sound like you are suffering from burnout.You don't like sales, and I'll bet you don't like a lot of other things (like smashing your thumb). But, would you be considering this job, if your remodeling income was significantly higher?I believe your "problem" is low income, not hating sales.I think it's time to raise your prices.If you choose to think about the other job, keep in mind that you are in control of your salary. You've got to sell yourself, for what ever price you choose.I am not a sales oriented person either. My golden bullet was selling larger chunks of my labor. I refuse all remodeling requests now, and simply sell rough frame labor. My last selling experience took approximately one hour. That included the thirty minutes of driving to find a sub that needed framers. I then priced out a plan and chatted with the man for a few minutes as I gave him my price.Four houses, and about 1600 hours of labor later, I'm about to start another. I'm looking at six basements with more on their way.I guess I could chuck this gig and start measuring gutters again.But I don't think so.My point? Raise your prices so the other offer seems trivial. Start saying no to the small stuff. Blue
*Its wintertime here in the northwest and things are a little slower then maybe I would like, but I too had an offer the other day by a larger more established contractor to become their lead man. How tempting. No more 2 am at the computer working on bids, no more collecting checks, no more worring.thanks but no thanks was my reply. I could never give up doing MY jobs. walking away from a potential job because it did not feel right, no more crawling under houses with a couple of inches of water under them ( rains a lot out here) taking a week off when I want, no more missing important events in my kids lives unless it is MY choice.I can not tell you how many times well off engineers, other lead men, or even hamburger flippers tell me they wish I had that kind of freedom. I do not think I could work for anyone else again. Everyone has mentioned all the important things you need to do . Have faith in who you are and what yu do, believe in yourself. Charga a fair amount but do not be the lowballer. Present yourself in a positive image so people ask see they are crazy for not hiring you. And as Crazy legs said (kind of) how you measure wealth is important. Peace, family, independence like an independent can not be bought.Finally a classic example ( for me) a good friend was an independent, seemed to be maiking it. He then got out of the business and went into management for a builder who was big in developing, was not only his lead but also in sales , he was making nearly 60k a year, wife complained he was never home, kids became spoiled little shits, had a heart attack at 45, now starting over as a one man show doing decks and fences and loving every minute of his life asAN INDEPENDENT. Well thats my 50 cents worth, good luck, follow your heart.
*Ryan: Please check your E-mail.Regards, Steve
*Thank you everyone for your input.You’ve been a lot of help in sorting this all out.You’re all right, I’m too stubborn, self sufficient, and independent to do well in corporate America. That’s why I left in the first place, that’s why I had a string of corporate jobs for ten years instead of staying in one good position.It’s nice to know that sales is something that is not only uncomfortable for me.Like many of you mentioned, the company in question is definitely in a state of flux. I was once taken in because of a merger, they’ve had two mergers since I left, Stock has fallen from near $60 a share three years ago to the single digits now. Losses for the last two quarters are near 30 million dollars and with the new Prospective Payment System for medicare, more losses are likely.You all mentioned the freedom contracting offers. For some reason I never saw that, The long nights, the weekends working, the evenings estimating take a lot of time. But you’re right, I spent the last three weeks rebuilding the engine on my truck. Few jobs would give me time off for that and few would let me take off a morning for my 3-mo. olds doctors appointments.Jeff Buck suggested a partner that has strengths where I have weaknesses. I tried that on my first contracting adventure. I’m not really a very good co-operator. Part of the reason I never survived in a straight job. I took an occupational accessment survey and I realized that my wife (who is now home full time with or daughter) has exactly the skills I lack. She’s agreed to get involved with me.Somebody (who deleted their message) said that They suspected part of my problem might be not making enough money. Should have left the post, you were on the right track. I’m surviving but have only been in this area for a year and a half. Still don’t have the customer base to be as busy as I would like. If I had more money, I would probably enjoy what I’m doing more.So, I’m staying. I’ve decided to only do this if my wife agreed to get really involved, and she has agreed. We’ve come up with a plan that I hope will raise our income, make sales much more pleasant, and keep me from having to send weekly reports to a corporate office.1) We’re going to write a marketing plan. Identify our best customers and only advertise to this demographic (whatever it is). 2) I’m going to keep working on sales. My six month goal is to be able to create a price with the client at their kitchen table and sign a contract in the first visit. I have to work on contracts and forms for this.3) Improve my customer service to get more repeat and referral business. (This is my wife’s strength). Maybe that means a fruit basket from a florist after every job, christmas cards, a written warranty (does anybody have one I can look at?), follow up calls and scheduled visits after the job is done, making sure the phone gets answered in person even when I’m not here.Thanks all.
*Way to go, Ryan!!!One of the people posting here has a second line under their name that says "Sweat the small stuff". It's the little things, taken together that are going to make your business.A business plan, defining your intended direction, written in any style comfortable to you, will keep your head straight, enumerate the benchmarks and give you and your life's business partner a sense of direction you probably are now just winging off the top of your head. It's also something you'll need to make your bankers happy should you need financingSALES. UGH! Me too! King of the procrastinaters.Follow up on all your jobs, even the ones you don't get. I present a small photo album to my customers at the end of the job and often another small token, such as when I created a plant shelf as part of a bath remodel I also presented a nice basket of greenery to the lady of the house that was chosen to fit on that shelf. As the guy said, "It's the small stuff".Lastly, having endured corporate life also, I find it immensely comforting that now there is no doubt as to who will be the last man standing.Ralph
*good luck, keep us posted, keep hammerin
*Ryan, No , the fruit basket won't be necessary, all you need to do is do a nice job , its easy, treat every job like its your own home! I say it all the time If something doesn't come out just right(Would I except this if It were My house and I always find my answer! Do it again! People need a great proffessional job not fruit baskets and your the man to deliver! good luck Steve
*Sounds good Ryan.Several of us here are half of a H+W team. Texas James D. works with his and seems pretty happy with the arrangement. My wife and i work together and are doing well. I'm pretty sure corporate america won't be knocking on my door. The longer you've been on your own the less good a prospect you are.joe d