Went to the coast this morning to check out backup problems. We had 18″ of snow the other day so ice is forming on poorly insulated areas.
This roof is copper standing seam , done by others years ago. I soldered on Alpine snow guards about 8 years ago to keep folks safe when approaching the house. Not much overhang.
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Heres some shots of the ice up on the roof and the guards.
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Heres some pictures of the inside where a bathroom is gutted out to be rebuilt.
Water is evident on the walls in several locations.
I've got some ideas for a cure , but would like some input if anyone feels like helping.
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Well, there have definitely been some leaky windows in the past, but it's a little hard to see the roof leakage you describe. Is it just on the low slope part of the roof, or everywhere?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Dan, Check my response to Duane above. The ice dam is letting melt get onto and into the wall .
If the bathroom is gutted for remodel now, but is insulated later, will that improve things? It may be that this problem is only visible now because the walls are open, or it may only be happening now because the roof/ceiling insulation is gone for the time being.
Thats an excellent point David . The carpenters said they could see evidence where it has happened previously Though.
I thought if it were Cor Bonded , both walls and ceiling , Trim on the exterior covered with copper - then the shingles stripped. We could then use Grace for the vertical wall, cedar breather , then re shingle with better head flashings.
What say you on that approach ??
Walter
That would be my approach. Additionally, I would make a copper eave trim ewxtenion to kik that water out a couple inches further. I think that could be done to look half way decent
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul,
I'm meeting with the HO and the carpenter tomorrow to discuss some of whats been put forth here.
Viking has a $1200 minimum to spray 3" of Cor Bond , but I think it's well worth it.
They also have clear Maibec shingles already primed.
Picking up lots of work for Spring due to back up issues from this last 18" of white stuff.
Walter
That was my thought as well. Tough having no/tiny eave ... no wiggle room for issues like this. No eave and low slope roof. wow
Looks like a bad situation all around.I gather this is a bump-up of a former 1-1/2 story house, creating the low-slope roofs. With the low slope decent insulation is a problem in the best of circumstances. With the lack of overhang you're inevitably going to have water running down the sides of the house, but minor ice damming makes the runoff concentrate is relatively small areas, creating a more obvious (if not a more serious) problem.Short of tearing the roof off and adding a decent (or at least minimal) overhang all around (plus insulation), probably all you can do is add some sort of kicker. But I don't know how you'd do it without tearing up the roof and/or looking like sh!t.I hope the owners are also going to tend to those windows.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
> I gather this is a bump-up of a former 1-1/2 story houseLooking at the pictures some more I see that it's a bump-out of a bump-up.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Heres the bathroom after the floor has been removed. Yes bumped up , over and out.
Originally an old fish shack so the story goes.
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How much money do these people have? I hope it's a lot.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
So do I.
tell this guy to get out of the picture...
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and this would be changed how ?
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Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/21/2009 4:22 pm ET by MikeSmith
Thats Sasquatch !!
Copper bent to go up under the present drip edge then clad both trim pieces with another drip at the bottom of the 1x6.
What think you about Gracie on the wall after shingle removal , then slicker , then re shingle with great window flashings ??
Signed - Sasquatch.
ok ...ok...sasquatch
i like the copper''''but grace on the whole wall ?
i like the grace at the wall / roof break....and all around the windows... and leading under your new copper
but i think in the field 30 lb felt, then cedar breather, then reside
i would like some ability to dry to the outsideMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks. I'm looking for the best solution. I know you've had a lot of cedar experience so I think you might be right. All Gracie might be too much.
How 'bout Cor Bond for the insulation - no way to get any ventilation ??
i don't know what Cor Bond is ....
on the cedar breather....it's about a 3/8 build-up.... so your drip edge and flashing details have to account for thatMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Brand name for sprayed in foam insulation.
Yup figured I'd have about that much extra depth to account for. Have to chase the woven corners back and redo them.
Should I pin them ??
http://www.corbond.com/
Edited 1/21/2009 5:25 pm ET by theslateman
pin ?
are u trolling ?
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sasquath no troll !!
I would worry about foaming those walls unless you have absolutely solved the water intrusion from both windows and ice dams. The ice dams might be mostly solved by foaming the roof, but the issue of melt-and-freeze that happens on sunny days won't ever go away.
Obviously the problem is mainly the tiny overhang. Now that the copper roof is in place it's tough, but I would be tempted to install a BIG piece of eave metal/drip edge--something that covers the entire fascia, and also goes up the roof several inches--and then Ice&Water the first few feet of the roof. When ice forms like it has in your photos, the melt water wicks in under the roofing, under the drip edge, etc., and gets into the woodwork. I'd try to flash the whole dang thing, and then reinstall the gutter over the flashing.
The low slope doesn't help either.
David,
I followed your description up until you said to use ice and water on the roof. I'm not sure how thats possible now? You don't mean on top of the copper do you ?,'cause getting it under would be a job I'm not willing to do.
I agree that foaming without solving the leakage is foolhardy - but the roof being foamed will eliminate a lot of the melt.
I see that trim / fascia juncture as being critical to keeping water out over the long haul - as apparently you do as well.
Thanks, Walter
I mean Ice & Water under the copper. Obviously you'd have to pop the roofing off. My thought is that you would have a continuous barrier 3 feet up the roof and then all the way down over the fascia (in the form of a very large drip edge).
David,
Popping the copper roof off sounds unappealing to me. It would involve repacing it I think - cause removal to the point of a Grace install would involve too much tear up I think.
I'm in total agreement with cladding the angled trim piece and fascia with copper and extending it up into the present drip edge.
There are no gutters now and I don't think it wise to add them - just more to fail in these types of storms .
Walter
that's one of my lines....when customers ask why we are not going to design a house with gutters on them ....
"well, they don't have gutters in Maine & Vermont.... the ice just rips them off "don't know why i never mention New HampshireMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I like gutters for certain homes - mostly built in wooden and lined with metal ones. Although K style copper works well on some homes.
If installed properly - beneath the plane of the roof slightly - we don't normally have problems with tear off - especially since this Global Warming thing.
Are we gonna check out that house you posted pictures of last Fall when I come down for JLC live - or don't you want to be seen with a guy in a pink hat ??
Walter
I agree with Mike to use less gfrace ont he wall. The cedar breather would let shingles dry but the sheathing would be trapped between the corbond and the grace.and when ou replac the cedars, can you run them straight for me so there aren't some reveals at 6" and some at 4"? That bugs the snot out of me.BTW, I am having lunch on my job now and the neighbor has a high speed wireless the laptop is picking up. Nice way to see your photo threads!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Can you see all the way to Castine from Islesboro ??<G>
Once you get the taste of high speed you'll never return to cave man days of dial up !!!
I think you've seen enough of my jobs to know you'll be satisfied with the straightness.
you got a pink hat ?omg...sure... but the owner is having second thoughts about a lot of the options....i think he is of the " a roof is a roof is a roof" schoolMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
He needs a good sales pitch from a guy in a pink hat !!!
With a low slope like that I would be worried that water is just wicking in under the roofing. Very rarely I have seen a detail where the panel edges are folded into the drip edge, if it was done that way it might be fine.
Mike, David , Dan , Duane , Grant etc.,
Went down again this morning at - 24 degrees - so no leakage.
I went over with the customer and her builder what was discussed here - clad the trim, even try to get some Grace up the roof a bit once the SS's are unlocked. Remove all old cedars , Grace around windows with new copper flashings, 30 lb. on the rest , then Slicker , then primed Maibecs.
Frenchy would have marveled at my closing !!
Corbond as insulation and it's a wrap.
Thanks for the help
walter.... you go bro....
did you use the look 'em in the eye close ?
i had one today.... leaky chimney... been meaning to get to it for months.. finally worked up the numbers
called up the customer... they wanted to know how much it would be.. ( over the phone ) and they said... " i can't pay any more than $1000... how much will it be ? "
told them... " well.. it'll be $2450.."
OMG !
so i said... "well let me come show you the pictures "
half an hour later they signed for $2450Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nope , I told her that it can't be seen from my house and I didn't really care if it leaked !!
Took my lap top with CD of pictures I took before - new article in this months FHB on spray foam, print out from B Opdyke on the Slicker and from Corbond.
Left the mag for them for a few days to peruse the foam article.
Convinced them both that my suggestions were spot on and when could I start.
When it gets above zero I replied.
Stephen says you're the TW of RI is that correct ???
TW...... TW......????
ok... i give...Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Tiger Woods he said in boosting your image in another thread
Tight Wad?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Great! If I leave now I can be there in week to help!
No..I think I'm back in the swing for now.
I finished up some little details on the flat seam job and left Fri. in kinda a hurry to get to a chiropracter. Sat. AM I get call from the HO. "Hey, you are done, don't you want any money?" I explained my hurried departure and he was writing the check as I read off the remaining payment..I Like that.
Then he brought up a few other things he'd like done ( I do have a histry with this guy, matter o' fact one of my first jobs from Grant) and he wondered if I wanted to do them. Didn't want to sound TOO hungry, but readily agreed to price up the work.
The good thing about this job is the location , busy main drag in a ritzy part of horse country, I was certain to leave some new copper scrap showing around my van...people don't come to steal, they come to talk about thier porches..and leaks, and fluted columns..LOL Just having a hunk of copper is better than any yard sign. I had 3 tire kickers and a mailman inquire about thier projects, the mailman was Ghey I think, and of the 3 tirekickers, 2 are on the hook, but not in the boat yet.
I got a few days of stuff here in the shop for Grant , some half-circle vents, and a really sore back slowly getting better..and looks like for us here, a pretty good snow coming..lotsa firewood, plenty of food..life is large.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
the mailman was Ghey I think
I know who you're talking about. He's been talking about re-doing his roof for 15-20 years. He especially likes to talk about re-doing his roof in the summer when you have your shirt off.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
NTTAWWT He might like you guys to talk roofing with !
Nah - he's a pest.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Yeah, thats him..my gaydar was beeping loud and clear..and then Rosiee just blurted it out after he left...'I think he's Ghey!"
This one roof I will be happy to send your way..over on Big Sink..needs rubber and thats your territory.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Copper bent to go up under the present drip edge then clad both trim pieces with another drip at the bottom of the 1x6.
I don't think you need to go that far. Adding an inch or so long 45 degree kick at the bottom of the drip edge would get most of the water away from the trim.
What think you about Gracie on the wall after shingle removal , then slicker , then re shingle with great window flashings ??
I'd forget the Grace, but go with the rest.
How well was this thing insulated and did this occur after the insulation was stripped out? The problem may not be as bad as it's being perceived since it's in transistion at the moment.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Grant,
The original insulation was terrible so I know you're right about the problem looking worse than it normally might.
I thought be cladding the trim I could get another drip at its lowest point that was wide. I like the idea of enlarging the original as well.
Most of you guys feel Grace is overkill I guess ??
Walter
walter...at first blush....it looks like it could use more overhang....too much water running down the wall surface instead of falling clear...
and....
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this one looks like a window flashing problemMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
What are you blushing for ??!!
You didn't even chastise me for 5 pictures embedded. You're too busy with Robert and Pete today I guess !
Yes all that you've pointed out is right on the money. Did you read my reply to David about Cor Bond , copper trim cladding then grace and slicker the wall prior to re shingling ?
Make sense to you with that approach ? Extending the overhangs is not an option with the roof as it is.
Walter
Walter, you mentioned poorly insulated. That vent pipe will transfer some heat up above. An attempt should be made to insulate that lateral away from the roof deck, isolate it from losing heat into the space. I'm assuming it can't be moved in the remodel to a more direct shot straight up and out.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Good point Cal. I know the carpenter so I am going to make some suggestions - that now being one of them.
Did you see the boat out front in " on the way " ?
Where is the ice "backing up"? Even on a well-insulated roof, heat from the sun will melt snow, and then it will form icicles as it drips off into the shade.
Because there is negligible overhang the melt is following the trim and getting onto and into the cedar shingled wall.
I saw a transverse seam there close to the gutter..I can't tell, but it looks unsoldered ( as most are) I'd start there.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Duane,
You spotted them too.
If done properly ( which I don't know since I diddn't do the roof ) they would have soldered a lock strip at least 6" down from the top of that pan on such a low pitch. Then lock the next panel onto that.
I guess I was a little misleading in the intro. Most of the leakage is coming in thru the wall -- caused by the ice melt above with short overhangs.
Walter
they would have soldered a lock strip at least 6" down from the top of that pan on such a low pitch.
You ought to be able to look at the seam and tell if that was done or not. It'll be fatter where it overlaps.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Oh, other than that, remember that cleat I soldered on my recent box gutter? Thats why..if that gutter backs up or froze up and water hits it, the water can't or shouldn't crawl up under the pan's edge where it is locked on.
Tough fix no matter what. I hope Grant has better advice.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
That's assuming you have lots of sun ... in the winter ... which most folks don't have.
All it takes in one sunny day.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Is that what has happened with our house? We had several dumps of snow in a row, and it stayed pretty cold, but we had a week of sun and got icicles on the south and west sides of the house. Our detached unheated garage got them, although not as big. Even some stone areas on the patio seemed to get a layer of ice under the snow. We still have the icicles weeks later and I'm worried about the gutters and backup under the roof, but there's not much I can do about it now. We've been in this house over 10 years and this is the first time I've noticed this. I know that it is a symptom of improper venting in the roof, but I wonder if this isn't just a fluke caused by weird weather. We normally are icicle free even when our neighbor gets a 6 incher to the ground (he's got soffit and ridge vents, by the way).
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=115958.1
Heres an example of a situation a lot like you describe. It's been a severe Winter here for ice damming.
Yes - although they've got us beat on length and girth of icicles. Our gutters look to be full, but I don't have your guts to get on an icy roof to clear it off. Plus I'd probably put a hole in the roof :) I'll just cross my fingers and fix the damage after the fact. It got in the high 30's today, so we had some melt. This is what comes of living in a house built by a California transplant in snow country I guess.
Thanks for the pictures.
When the design is such that the snow can't leave the roof and no melt occurs between large storms you get these type situations.
You've been 10 years without problems and we have too for the most part.
Physically removing the ice and snow accumulations is one way to prevent water intrusion - better insulation and venting or insulation requiring no venting - for the future will help too.
Yeah, for roofs that aren't too high, using a roof rake can alleviate many problems. In general it's only necessary to rake to about a foot beyond the wall intersection, and it doesn't need to be raked clean, only knocked down to 3" or so.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Dan,
Not to sound mean here , but who works on roofs full time ??
Your info is not nearly correct in this last post. I've just spent the last week removing ice and snow accumulations from several large homes so I think the knowledge gained there outweighs that which is surmised to be.
What did I say that was wrong?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
The distance up from the wall height and leaving 3" on the roof are suggestions that can lead to trouble.
The conditions that you've had this Winter might be able to be eliminated by the methods you've proposed , but we're in much different situation here now.
I'll be adding to another thread in a while on huge ice issues.
It's possible that your neighbor has more serious problems with heat escaping from the house into the attic than you do. Even with "perfect" attic insulation and an airtight ceiling, you can end up with what you have due to sun action. It's another reason why ventilation is needed.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Review the science of ice dams ... heat from inside melts the snow (notwishstanding solar melting that MAY occur), water runs to the eave wher it freezes (that last 1-2 inches). Cycling builds up ice. More melting can force water back into construction. Insulate the ceiling well, seal it, then vent the attic very well ... eave to top ... and you will likely minimize the problem.
IMO - The problem started w/ the cheap (i.e. 'inexpensive') construction of a low sloped roof and no eave in a climate that needs both to protect the house from what we are seeing. Given that problem, you've got compromises, plain and simple, with solutions. Without replacing the roof, you may likely never be good to go.
It's under control. No venting required with Corbond.
Corbond being the roofing? I'm not talking about that ... I'm talking about keeping the roof cold ... venting helps keep the attic/roof cold so you don't have the freeze/thaw cycles.
no corbond is a foam-in-place insul. so..... cold roof ( or hot roof depending on terminology )Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
where do you apply this foam insulation in the example house of the OP?
To the bottom of the roof deck, from inside the house.
Then you insulate the gable end walls, too, correct? We have a conditioned attic, then ... and still have a cold roof.
Now you're testing my memory. I thought in his first pics there was a sloped ceiling... no attic.
eh ... don't check into Betty Ford, yet. I guess I didn't look at the pics to close. Assumed it was an attic - duh.
Then you insulate the gable end walls, too, correct? We have a conditioned attic, then ... and still have a cold roof.
That is sometimes done when the HVAC equipment is in the attic or in story and a half situations.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I think both Mike and David have given you the correct info.
Roof with short overhang to remain. Corbond rafter bays and stud bays with no venting required. Clad exterior trim with copper. Remove cedar shingles felt wall slicker then reshingle.
Thanks to all for being patient w/ the slow kid, here. I appreciate it! ;)
no problem, after all you are the clueless one;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
no no no ... clewless ... not clueless ... OK ... maybe I'm a bit clueless at times, too!!
We can all be idiots at times ... it's the keyboard's fault, I tells ya. It made me type the words wrong ... it's posessed I tells ya! l dfklj&$^%@)@ %#$OOI $O$#DLSD
No problem , we're all here to help and learn from each other.