Can anyone give me a general formula for estimating the cost of ICF? Somewhere I saw $10/sq ft of wall space as a reasonable estimate when trying to decide which type of foundation to go with. That figure included the cost of the block, steel, concrete and labor as a general guideline. Does that sound reasonable? We are in California and I’m wondering if it may be more. Since our house plans aren’t finished yet, we can’t go after firm bids for it yet and I don’t want to wastes time having the foundation drawings geared towards ICF if it’s cost prohibitive. Your experience?
Edited 3/15/2008 4:27 pm ET by ptmckiou
Replies
I was told just the material no concrete is $30 a block, but with a 300 mph rated wind speed, I would care how much it cost
There are different types of ICF blocks and I assume that they have different costs. Most are the polystyrene with various types of connectors between the inside and outside wall. However, there are also types of ICF blocks that are more like a lightweight concrete block that incorporate cement and either wood chips or polystyrene beads to provide an ICF that has much more inherent strength before the concrete is poured into it than does the polystyrene ICF. This type of ICF is supposedly more fire and insect resistant than the regular polystyrene based ICF.
There is also a type of polystyrene ICF that incorporates boric acid to keep the little creepy crawlies from partying in the plastic... I assume this comes as an extra cost item. Shipping may not be insignificant on ICFs, particularly if you want the boric acid treated ICFs in N. Calif. and they are only manufactured in Georgia.
A couple of years ago, I priced out the cement and wood chip ICFs and the price then was about $5.00 per square foot of wall area - rebar, concrete, and freight extra. I think this was for Faswall ICFs, but I think Rastra was similar. This may not have included the extra insulation that can be stuffed into the cavaties of this type of ICF to give it a reasonable R value.
Fox Blocks has their block prices posted and they are under $3.00 per block. Most people I've talked to say the majority of ICF blocks are $2.75 to $3.25 per block (and they are hurricane proof). Most block forms are 16" x 48" but they do vary some. That's why I wanted a sf price. My 2008 National Construction Estimator calculates the block, steel, concrete and labor at $6.01 SF and that seems low to me.
ptmckiou
My 2008 Construction Estimator comes up with a price of 11.78/SF. That's ICF forms, rebar, concrete, labor and tax. No markup.
Rich
Wow, that's cheap. We pay about 19 bucks for a 8x16X48 logix.
Closer to 25 here. I'm thinking he got his decimal misplaced
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Are you doing the whole house to plate line or just a basement area?
I had ICFs used for my "dream" house. It produced the warmest, driest basement I've ever seen. I would not hesitate to use them again.
As for estimating the price, get a price per block from the supplier and the price per yard for concrete and do the math.
I'd be interested in a comparison of the Mooney Wall system as employed by Mike Smith and ICFs, both on cost/sqft and energy efficiency.
I'm posting this to Mike in hopes that he'll take the time to discuss it with us.
i'm home... and my mooney data is down at the office.. maybe tomorrowMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I wager that, coming from you, such a comparison would be a valuable resource.
I'll be building several homes which will use some type of super-insulated system so I'd certainly be grateful to have your help in estimating costs and long term value.
I'd suggest that you begin a new thread so that the topic isn't missed by the many people who are or will be considering the same questions.
Thanks, Peter
I just had a local California contractor email me a general line of cost .....
$4 Block & materials
$1 rebar
$3 concrete, concrete pump & bracing system
$8 labor
=====
$16/sq foot OUCH! Thaaaaaat is cost prohibitive for us to go all the way to the eaves. Looks like just the basement is going to be ICF.
ptmckiou
$8.00 labor? per sq.ft? Do they arrive via private jet and wear Armani suits while working?
May I suggest that you peruse the http://www.arxxwalls.com web site, checking for videos on the installation of the forms. I watched one on there which showed how fast and easy the blocks are to install, including cutting with a small hand saw.
ICFs are probably the most DIY friendly building material to come along in my lifetime. If you're serious about saving money, you should be willing to get involved in the building process. Take a training seminar or go visit a jobsite and watch how it's done. If you do that you'll be in a position to practically eliminate the labor portion of the equation.
At least take the time to contact several ICF manufacturers. They have trained sales people who will happily return your call, ask a few simple questions, then send you a DVD which shows all the steps involved in building with ICFs. I have several such DVDs on my desk.
I'm not yet convinced that ICFs are the best solution for someone with my knowledge and skills but it's easy to see that they will soon become a much larger part of the DIY market.
I've viewed the videos. It certainly looks DIY friendly and I know I could to it - but I work 16 hour days 5 days a week now, so I have to hire out the job. Unfortunately, doing it myself is not an option. If I could find the time off... it would be a no brainer.
I recently heard of a new system (I think by dow/corning) in which the insulation is put in the middle of the form. This is to resolve moisture issues that have been found in icf's. Something to look at and may be less expensive.
I recently heard of a new system (I think by dow/corning) in which the insulation is put in the middle of the form.
This is to resolve moisture issues that have been found in icf's.
Something to look at and may be less expensive.
What "moisture issues"?
None of your speculation is useful without a link to a verifiable source, as a reference.
I also am looking at a project that requires ICF.
4000sq/ft. building. Completed Costs from others projects for the ICF portion would be nice to know
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Here is a link to what I mentioned for the process although it says nothing about the moisture I was talking about.http://building.dow.com/styrofoam/media/news/backgrounders/styrofoamtmass.htm
Jebedia,
That's a good discussion, on that linked site. Thanks for posting it here.
Peter
It appears to me that this is a precast slab that you would get from a concrete plant that had the equipment, not a form that would be used on site such as the usual ICFs. Just trying to clarify, I am not knocking the product. I have yet to find a good technical description of it, however.
To My understanding it is not precast or should I say it can be poured on site. There is rebar in the insulation already. This was a discussion at a continuing education class. I am not completely sure about the product as I have not researched it at all. I was merely putting it out there.
Not sure how a "Moisture Issue" can be caused by a ICF block wall. The only way that can happen is to have poor circulation and that problem is endemic in any very tight homes.
That is why it is so important to involve a HRV or HVAC designer before the first block is ever laid. The same is said for SIP construction.
YOU MUST HAVE PROPER VENTALTILATION in any home where you don't have air infiltration problems.
Stick built homes with F/G insulation and little no or improper moisture barrier will not see this problem because of the permeability of the walls. Hence you are (attempting)to heat the outdoors.
Talisker2,I apologize for not knowing the specifics.It was brought up in an continuing ed class I recently took and I don't remember the whole discussion. I will however see If I can find out more though.
Jeb, not a problem. It is a misconception among many people that believe that a house can be built "too tight". In the days of cheap energy it was common practice to build with a expected amount of air moving through the house. I did back in the 70's and now I am paying for it. I have a laundry list of things I must do before I can even request a preliminary energy audit. I know I have a leaky house and have the gas bills to prove it.<G>
But now I have the knowledge to fix as much as I can without a major expense.
Jim
From what I remember of the discussion there is a certain amount of moisture released from concrete and by putting the insulation between the concrete it is supposed to help it from gathering mold?Like I said I will have to get a hold of the instructor to find out what it was we were discussing exactly.The instructor is a contractor himself teaching the con. ed. 1-2 days a month. He is rather informative.
jebadia,
OH I think I understand the issue. concrete releases moisture as it cures.. to prevent this from being an issue they require decay resistant wood as a top plate. Insulated as it is the moisture is released slower producing less stress in drying making the concrete strnger than it's rating.. but there are a lot of materials in a house that a releasing moisture at the same time..
The wood a house is built with for exapmple is usually stamped something like KD 19 which means Kiln dried to 19% moisture plus or minus 2%. normal moisture in those 2x4's is around 5 to 7% once completely dried.. add the water for the concrete and the moisture from wood and the average house is extremely damp the first tear.. damp means mold potential..
"which means Kiln dried to 19% moisture plus or minus 2%. normal moisture in those 2x4's is around 5 to 7% once completely dried.."Try that again. Maybe 7% dried in Tucson...10-12% elsewhere.The KD is surface dried to 19% so inside the lumber can still be much wetter. overall you point is right here, but you really gotta quit making up the specifics on the fly like that unless you want us to call you the poet so you can employ that poetic license...;)
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piffin,
Ah! Now I got you! You just split hairs and I'll split them finer..
Your numbers aren't valid in houses heated in the winter unless they are pumping moisture into the air..
So yes I'll grant your numbers might be valid in the summer but not in the winter.
The thrust of my comment was correct as you kindly pointed out..
Jebadia
If there were a moisture problem with ICF's I'd know about it.. six years ago I put my first wall of ICF's and sheetrocked it.. Moisture sure would have ruined it by now..
No I'm afraid if you understood ICF's that issue wouldn't have come up. While it is true that you need to waterproof the outside simply because under enough water pressure water can be forced thru the seams in the block, thru the concrete, and thru the inside foam.
But you need to waterproof cement block, you need to waterproof poured concrete, or any other type of foundation..
ptmckiou,
Well why not find a local handyman, cement worker, or someone and show him the video and ask him if he'd be willing to do it for X # dollars.. $8.00 a sq.ft. is really excessive.
It's a win -win situation.. he learns a new skill and you save money. Arrange for him to get started on the day you don't work so you can supervise in order to feel comfortable about the process.
Edited 3/17/2008 9:36 am ET by frenchy
Frenchy, I agree with your suggestion. As easy as that system goes together and as much support as the manufacturers give, there's no reason not to DIY with some hourly wage help, particularly when the alternative is $8/sqft, labor.
Hudson Valley Carpenter
I can understand the reluctance of someone not terribly comfortable with doing things. They are worried they don't know how or will make a mistake.. So was I at first..
But since my sister in law with absolutely no experiance at all in any kind of construction was willing to tackle it when I was stuck in bed and did a great job, it really is as simple as glueing some big foam leggos together.
Hudson
i looked at the Adverse Possession house records
we had 2080 sf of Mooney wall
matls cost $1071 ( $0.52 /sf )
& labor was $1596 ( $0.77 / sf ) based on rate plus burden = $28 / man hour
matls were culled 2x matl from our lumber yard ( $120)
glue.................................................$25
Insulweb..............................$83
cellulose ( 94 bales ) ..............$843
labor was :
rip culled matl to 2x2................. 4 hrs
cut & nail mooney ( 2x2 )......21 hrs
install & glue mesh...............16 hrs
blow walls...................... 16 hrs
_______________________________
total labor .................57 man hours or 36 sf / man hour
blowing the attic is separate ( 2 guys one day ) 24" deep ... say 20" settled
settled density of 1.7 lb/ cf = 20/12 x 1.7 = apx 2.8 lb/ sf
cells cost about $9/ bale (25 lb ) delivered including tax Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the details Mike,
Just to make the comparison complete, would you give us the R-value of the complete wall as well as the material and labor costs/sqft for a basic framed and sheathed wall?
Also, what's the R-value of cellulose per inch of thickness?
And...what method do you use for ripping all that culled 2X?
i normally use the r-value of 18 , which is corrected for studs
but if you include the air layers ( in & out ) and the siding & drywall..
then the r-value is 20
cells are usually figured at 3.7per inch
for ripping culled lumber... fastest is still a good rip blade and a tablesaw..... Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the info Mike,
I was curious if you used a Festool or similar rip guide system. I have to admit that I wouldn't look forward to ripping that much culled 2X on a table saw. I suppose it depends a lot on the species, how fast it goes.
Have you ever tried applying full 2X4 on edge? Looks like it would add enough R-value to compete with ICF claims. Is there a support bracket that would work?
I imagine that cutting 2X4 triangle supports would be about as time consuming as ripping 2X. But maybe not...jig up the 2X, double up, to be held in a sliding alignment jig so that you could use a circ saw to cut them two at a time, both square and forty-fived. Then again, the triangles would probably need to be pre-drilled, glued and screwed to be reliable. Still, might be worth experimenting, to get another R7.4.
Whaddaya think? Any good?
If you're going to the effort of furring the wall with 2x4's on edge, why not just frame an interior partition with single plates?You could even space the plates an inch or so (8" rough wall thickness not including sheathing) and short circuit the thermal bridge at the top and bottom plates.Of course, at that point your wall thickness is close to a Larsen truss so you could look at that as well.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
You're quite correct Jon. I was just thinking out loud and getting too involved in the 'how to' rather than the 'whys and why not'. lt would certainly be quicker and simpler to frame a second wall, after the house was under roof.
Mike,
I'm convinced now. The Mooney wall is so much less expensive to build that I've reworked my current design to use ICFs for only the walk-out basement. The two upper floors will be conventional framing with the Mooney wall/method/system added for it's simplicity and overall economy.
Your generous spirit is a great asset to this community of trades people and others. Thanks again for providing all that data.
really ? i thought the added cost of Mooney wall would put a lot of people off
the materials are very little... the labor seems high to me ( of course we think it's well worth it )
this other discussion we're having about using 11 7/8 I-joists for studs has me intrigued
what are you going to use for windows &
what about HVAC ?
i see a photo thread in your future ......Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
really ? i thought the added cost of Mooney wall would put a lot of people off
the materials are very little... the labor seems high to me ( of course we think it's well worth it )
this other discussion we're having about using 11 7/8 I-joists for studs has me intrigued
what are you going to use for windows &
what about HVAC ?
i see a photo thread in your future ......
I work cheap...on my own projects anyway. And I'm not in any hurry. It's a beautiful site with a great view for forty-fifty miles so I'll enjoy being there, no matter how long it takes. I'm going to buy a decent travel trailer and set it up there, for the duration.
I'm happy to have finally learned about the real costs of ICFs, as hard as they are to believe. I'd been assuming that they'd be competitive with conventional framing, maybe even less expensive.
I've always enjoyed framing houses so I'm deeeeelighted to find a way back to those methods and skills.
As you pointed out in your photo-essay on that home you built last year, the Mooney Wall work fit in nicely on rainy days.
I've got a pair of horses that I made up for sheet rocking ceilings. They'll be perfect for applying the 2X2s.
I'll figure out a setup for ripping the 2Xs. Probably faster and easier with two guys, like an old saw mill, huh?
Thanks for reminding me about that other discussion on I-joist for walls.
Windows? Probably a lot of fixed glass in home-made frames.
REad this post: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=100211.13
i only know the mooney side of the equation... i have no icf data to compare toMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"i only know the mooney side of the equation... i have no icf data to compare to"
That's fine by me Mike. I'm sure we can come up with a good estimate on ICFs.
I'd appreciate it if you would separate the labor from the materials on your system and identify the materials.
My two cents,
I'm in the midst of building a house with Apex/Arxx wall system ICFs. These are 80% recycled EPS/20 % portland cement. They're simple to lay up due to the shallow tongues and grooves on each edge surface. Aligning, cutting, rebarring and rough openings are as simple as can be.
The one thing I would warn anyone of in this system is the need for a pump truck with a 3" hose and shut off at the end of the hose. If you use a 4" hose or do not have an end shut off it is easy to overfill the forms and have a blow out, trust me I know.
I like the ability to skim coat plaster the interior and stucco the exterior as the adhesion to the cement portion of the blocks is more than adequate. this ends up saving additional labor and materials in comparison to the typical process of finishing ICFs.
Cost for the system I am using (without shipping)
Blocks - $5.85 s.f.
Rebar - $0.98 s.f. -includes footings
Concrete - $1.32 s.f.
Pump truck $700/pour
Labor - 7.25 s.f./man hr -
Includes staging walls up to 12' high and pouring cores
This is for a rectangle with two walk out walls and two full (no openings) walls.
This works out to an expensive system when viewed as wall framing and sheathing.
When viewed as wall framing, sheathing, insulation, firestop, bug and mold resistant, seismic approved, plaster and stucco ready wall system the ability to build with very few tools, it is more of a value.
I just talked with the Amvic rep for our area and he confirmed that the contractors using their product are ranging $14-$18 sq ft of wall space installed.
The one thing I would warn anyone of in this system is the need for a pump truck with a 3" hose and shut off at the end of the hose.we hook a three inch shimmy hose to the end to slow the free fall, we also us a boom truck pump
does it need a drainage plane on the exterior?
That is a great question. I believe it depends on the climate and the application of the stucco, permeability and moisture drive. In the Northeast, where I'm building, Joe Lstiburek's Builder's Guide to Cold Climate shows a detail for interior strapping covered with drywall. No exterior drainage plane, just stucco (If my memory is correct) So moisture condenses on the interior layer of the ICF? and goes where? No drainage plane on the exterior, I have written them and am hoping for a reply, they are busy folks.I spoke with a semi local builder on the drainage plane topic, he has built many homes with Rastra which is the same composition as the Apex block. He has never had a moisture issue on any of his homes. He recommends using cement based stucco for the first (exterior) coat followed by a synthetic finish coat. the main reason for the first coat of masonry stucco is cost. He repeats this first coat on the interior and finishes with plaster. this approach allows the walls to dry to the interior. I am experimenting with this technique on the home I am building. I am trying a few spots this week to see how they perform.
You might be able to do a 4' high wall in some locations for as little as $10/sf, but 15-18 is more accurate and it depends a lot on site access, and seismic design - how much steel needs tied in. The number of 8/ft for labor does not sound unrealistic to me. there is a lot of work that is not just in the stacking of legos. A lot.
If you want it right, that is.
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piffin,
OK, then why are local contractors willing (and building) ICF homes for the prices of stick built homes?
At first there was a 10% premium then it went to 2% a couple of years ago and now the last house I saw go up around here was done to a price matching a stick framed bid..
'cause in your area, they have nuthing else to do and are crying for work, willing to take jobs just to keep someone busy and forego any profit. I remember what you say.Could also be a factor that after regular experience they get more efficient at it and/or learn to cut corners.For me to do ICF for ten bucks, I would have to steal some of the materials, hire illegals, and forget to pay my insurance, all just to break even. But I admit it costs more to get the crete and pumper out to the island
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Piffin
The numbers I forecast were for 1000 sq.ft per man per day. and working it I can easily see doing it (well maybe not fat out of shape old man like me but some younger guy I think could do it easily)
I don't know how much it would cost to get cement out and a pumper.. but I do know that once you do it you really get cocky. Later this summer remind me to take pictures of the round foundation I did in one pour will you? I am really proud of how that turned out. (you can see part of it at 94941.7) that's what is under that portico..
If you want you could check out the blocks I used at http://www.rewardwalls.com
I'll need to wait to this summer because my dock is under there right now and if you go in all you see is dock pieces..
Edited 3/19/2008 4:21 pm ET by frenchy
Edited 3/19/2008 4:23 pm ET by frenchy
after footings and layout, I can stack and tie about 800SF a day.But that is a small part of the work.There is the footings and the layout.
More rebar in some places than others.
The window and door bucks
The bracing, leveling and filling/patching
The actuall pour
The cleanup
The stucco finish coat and waterproofing
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Piffin.
You'd do footings and layout for any building so I would treat those as part of the deal not part of the ICF costs..
bracing with reward forms is putting the scaffold up and then straingtening it.. It took me about 2 hours my first time and maybe 10 minutes my last one (but I'm cheating on that <grin>) typically I would guess maybe an hour for 1000 sq.ft.
pour and cleanup can't take 20 minutes for 1000 sq.ft. maybe 1/2 hr. tops? (I'm guessing here. I do know I was shocked even the first time how fast it went in spite of our inexperiance and stopping once to correct a goof.
Cutting & installing door bucks and window bucks depending on a lot of things I would guess maybe 1/2 hour each? I'm basing my estimates on what I see pro crews do.. I didn't do that part on my foundations. Except I did make 6"x18" white oak timber door bucks. There was roughly 8 hours of prep work per timber to go from roughsawn to installed and with stainless steel lag bolts in place along with copper flashing..
Any job would need cleanup so again again I didn't calculate that as a seperate ICF cost..
I do see why you'd need to running it as a business..
Finally, you do your own stucco? that's cool!
Around here stucco was so expensive it was a lot cheaper for me to make sure that it had a brickledge and then stone the wall with real stone than have someone come out and do the stucco work.. What do you pay per ton for 4 inch random stone?
I really enjoyed doing the stonework too. each timbered square took me an average of 2 1/2 hours and it was a real joy to figure out just which stone to use where.. Pick just the right size shape color and projection.. tap tap and knock a corner off and slide it in with just the right amount of mortor..
If you look carefully I got really creative putting some red Mica in a few spots as well as making the stone grin OK so I use my immagination !
"pour and cleanup can't take 20 minutes for 1000 sq.ft. maybe 1/2 hr. tops?"You can pour 25 yards of concrete in 20 minutes? I couldn't direct three trucks to back up to the pump truck on a crowded site in 20 minutes.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
I'm thinking not about the whole package which you guys have to but how long does it take me standing there holding the hose to fill a 1000 sq.ft. 1/2 seems longer than it took the last time (which was my 4th pour)
Three times I had them there for 4 hours total time. one time for about 2 hours but none of those were straight wall pours.. they all included the floor plus a few other odds and ends.. footings for retaining walls and entryway type stuff. In retrospect I think I could have done all my pours in one 4 hour period. that's roughly 4000 sq.ft. +or-
Not bad for a fat old guy, huh?
That'd be 20 yd with the forms I use, but I don't see the crew arriving and getting shagged into their mud boots and gloves in much less than twenty minutes, then back in the pumper and let him get assembled and wet down.....Just a good example of frenchy not living and working in the real world the rest of us work in to make a living
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piffin.
I was supposed to put on mud boots? I'm sorry, I did it in my deck shoes. I did have a pair of rubber gloves. but I don't know why it should have taken me 20 minutes to put on a pair of rubber gloves.. <grin>
Piffin
I've acknowledged that I count time differant from what a business does.. You are correct to call me on that..
I don't figure set up time the same way nor do I need to keep close track of exactly how fast or slow I am..
those are all valid critisms of me..
On the other hand when I'm selling I don't keep track of time either.. In fact the last watch I ever had was when I was in the Navy..
"On the other hand when I'm selling I don't keep track of time either.."But you want to sell a worthwhile item don't you?The thing you are 'selling' here in these threads is information.
You started out by providing information that indicated that very little time goes into building ICF walls.
That is bad information
That is why you get corrected. There are 2-3 people in this thread who want to build with ICF ( and probably half a dozen lurkers as well) who can only benefit from accurate complete info rather than your skattergun assumptions, quasi-memories, and mis-matched appications.So don't take it personal.
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Piffin
I don't believe I've ever taken things personally, Ahh! that's not true but I don't find a difference of opinion reason to be offended..
You and I have had our share of disputes.. in the end I suspect it's because I see things through the eyes of someone excited and thrilled while you consider things from a business perspective..
Since I've done what I speak about and find it fun and exciting I can't help but feel that excitement and share that feeling with others..
Yours is a profession. Many here are hobbyists and home owners. Your viewpoints aren't wrong.. for pros.. mine aren't wrong from hobbyists and homeowners viewpoints..
My home thus far has required around 20,000 man hours of my time plus another 10,000 manhours of people helping me.. figuring your hourly rate of what, $50/100 an hour? We're talking about a house costing 1 1/2 to 3 million.. plus the cost of materials.. Since I don't have even a quarter of the low end that involved I'm happy as a pig in mud..
I want to share that joy and excitement.. You on the other hand need to take home a profit every week.
Let me use the ICF's as my final concluding example.. When I did my first ICF I needed a foundation and nothing more.. I didn't care if it was block, poured, or made from elephant tusks. Now I know I don't have the talent to lay cement block correctly nor do I have access to the equipment needed for poured block walls. In the end I selected ICF's and saved close to $10.000 over the nearest quote. Plus ICF's went far easier than I believed possible. That sort of savings with that sort of ease is exciting.
You're not wrong,, I'm not wrong, please stop thinking of things in those terms..
FWIW
I just received a verbal quote on a project ( meaning the project was verbally described to the sub ) for a 8000sq/ft. floor footage ICF job.
$10-12 sq/ft Wall , includes all materials and erection, concrete. No finish materials. I will post the real final quote when I receive it.
Location is Ore.
dovetail
There used to be a 10% premium charged for ICF homes around here. Minneaspolis, St Paul metro area. About two years ago local builders cutting each others throat were doing them for a 2% premium. the most recent home built matched a stick bulders quote to the penny..
When I discussed this with the ICF supplier he told me that they had to do stuff like that to get a large enough market to make it viable.. Another words the venders were discounting to the contractors in order to develop a market in a down market condition..
Numbers he gave me were lower than what I paid for them over 6 years before.. Plus I paid $120 a yard of the concrete and the price they charged was 100 a yard. the only thing more expensive was rebar but he always was more expensive than Home Depot
Frenchy,
We're talking actual sqft prices. It doesn't further the object of the thread when you make comparisons without the essential ingredients...labor and materials.
As Joe Friday used to say: "Just the facts."
Boring as that may be to you, it's what we need in order to make an informed, intelligent choice, as it applies to our own circumstances.
Edited 3/19/2008 2:11 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Hudson Valley Carpenter,
What I said was valid.. ICF homes are being built at prices matching stick built houses.. I also explained why and if you think about it why another location might not.
Your location may not be as eager to get into the market.. or they may not have sufficent experiance to properly judge competetive advantages of building with ICF's .. (labor savings potentional)
Experianced installers of ICF may have to commute too far or be already fully booked at premium prices..
Mike Smith was very good to explain his costs to you but unfortunely that does not mean that a local builder unfamilar with his methods or procedures would build for the same price.. Nor do I believe Mike would commute as I think he is pretty busy.. I can't give you accurite times because My sister-in-law with no prior experiance did so much of the work..
Step back and think for a moment (assuming you've watched the video of them being built) How much time did they spend? If you haven't watched the video give reward a call 1800 468 6344
or http://www.rewardwalls.com
watching the video tells somebody exactly nothing about how long it takes to build with these.
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What I said was valid.. ICF homes are being built at prices matching stick built houses.. I also explained why and if you think about it why another location might not.
Fine What are the prices. Forget the labor for now. Break down the materials costs and compare them. Do the research. Make some calls. Then we'll have a basis for a discussion.
Otherwise I'm not going to take your word for it because, at best, it's second hand information from someone I've never met who shows signs of being heavily biased.
Prices are pretty fluid right now: Concrete, due to it's energy intensive manufacture and delivery, is getting more expensive; as is the price and availability of rebar; and the oil-based nature of ICF blocks and some of the waterproofing systems; and distance from ICF material source affects delivery cost.To get an accurate picture, one really has to do some local research.P.S. Don't argue with Frenchy.....unless you have a lot of time on your hands. :-)
Thanks for those insights.
I'm often in Frenchy's corner but there are times when nothing will do but the basic hard facts and figures.
I've done some cost estimates which show ICFs to be significantly, like exponentially, more expensive than conventional framing with the Mooney adaptation so I don't need Frenchy's help with that. I just want him to come down to Earth and give us some hard numbers.
Hudson Valley Carpenter.
Yes you are correct to mistrust me. I did enjoy it a great deal.. and I'm trying to let others share in that joy.. Not trying to mislead but I don't do this as a business.
The prices you got from others sound about right. 18.00 a form but you'd only need those bigger forms on the foundation.. but you might not even need those. I'd contact your supplier to figure out just what size is called for reward forms will do all the engineering for you..
Let's just use 13 inch for now.Like I said the price of the form is around that 18.00 number depending on factors.. smaller forms can be shipped more per trailer load which lowers the per unit cost by something. larger forms have more shipping cost per unit because fewer fit in the trailer..
A form is 4 feet long and 16 inches high and it will take 7 1/2 forms to use one yard of concrete.. so that's 40 sq.ft. per yard and a yard of concrete is about $100 +or-
that's the foundation..
walls you could use the 9 inch form and get a little over 15 forms per yard that's 80 sq.ft. of wall
Add some for foam and rebar I would estimate that foundation material costs are. right in the $6.38 sq.ft. sq.ft. to let's go big shall we? say $120 a yard concrete, twice as much rebar/foam cost. and we're up to $7.35 a sq.ft.
walls, your numbers per sq.ft go down to $4.90 sq.ft. again using our more expensive concrete and more for rebar and foam to $5.38 a sq.ft.
So pick a nice average and we have say $5.25 a sq.ft material costs for walls and $7.00 for foundation..
should be owrkable numbers untill you contact actaul suppliers..
frenchy ,not trying to be a smartazz,but i'd hire you for 50.00 a hour at those labor times. the time i poured a icf 32x32 i would guess i held on to the hose about a hour and half, went aound three times on 8' walls,but i will say it wasn't hard work,just nevre wracking hoping you didn't blow.and there were 3 or 4 guys walking around hammering on the sides,etc.
something you keep mentioning that i'm curious about ,is you keep talking about foaming while putting these together,tell me what your doing with the foam? larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
alwaysoverbudget..
I'm not.. I may be off a bit on my times.. this is a hobby not work. I don't really focus on time. and I'm almost always excited about doing things so time seems to fly by.. 32 feet 32 feet high? I don't blame you or was it two walls 8 feet high 32' long?
My first pour I was all nervious and scared but by the time I did my 4th pour I broke rules, invented my own system, and countered the strong suggestion of the pump operator. I did it my way.
But I am sure that I only paid for 4 hour segments on three of the 4 pours.
The 1000 sq.ft a 8 hour day per man is pretty valid. I've watched a couple of crews do it and while I didn't get a tape measure out to verify everything That's pretty darn close..
The instructions say so.. assemble block and foam each seam. That's the only part that slows me down. I mean running two strips of foam 4 feet long and two verticals takes several minutes. Without the foam I bet I could do 2000sq.ft. easily but once it's done I think the walls are pretty stout.
so are you foaming in the joint or along the face of it? were your blocks like legos with lots of little nibs that go into the block below?
with the ones i worked with if you would of shot foam between each block,even if it only spaced it a 1/16 of inch,about 3 blocks and the next row is not going to set down properly.
the ones i used you wire tied each block to the one below and the one beside it. i think 1 guy that really knew what he was doing might lay5-600ft of block doing this way.this was alomost 8 years ago and since then i did see a guy use zip ties instead of wire.that would help.
the house i did was a 32' square with 8' walls,then second pour for another 8' high. so total of 16'high walls. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
We mostly use the adhesive foam to bond the first course to the footing or slab.
always over budget..
No you assemble first the blocks go together (they are toothed), and there is a definate V you can fill on the inside of the form. There is no need to wire anything together.. the rebar snaps into grooves. stays put during the pour and Honestly if you use these they go together really quickly..
Go to http://www.rewardwalls.com to see what they look like.
"foaming while putting these together,tell me what your doing with the foam? "We use foam cans to seat the forms to the footer. First course of blocks must be perfectly level and straight, as you know, and no footer is ever perfect. So unless there is s single hump to shave the bottom off to fit, we shim the forms up to the high spots, then foam along the base to keep them in place and prevent too much leakage out.Then as we build up, every now and then there is a chipped corner or edge that could leak, so we fill that and any spots where we cut blocks to length and there are gaps showing. Anyplace where we run a PVC sleeve through the forms for plumbing, conduit, or whatever else, we cut the form, set the sleeve, and then foam around it. Where we are cutting block to fit ledge or old stone rubble foundations, we cut as close as we can, then fill the gap with foam tooFor the most part, where foaming is used, we just do that at the end of the day so it cures up overnight and gets trimmed clean in the AM. you don't get it on you that way, trying to work in the same are you have foam oozing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So pick a nice average and we have say $5.25 a sq.ft material costs for walls.
That's much more useful for the purpose of comparison.
I made a call to the local lumber yard (not HD) today for current materials prices.
Using 1/2" structural OSB wrapped with Tyvek, a 2X4 wall (16" centers) will go for $1.76 sqft including Mike's figure of $.52 sqft for the Mooney wall adaptation. That per sqft price includes a healthy allowance for plates, headers, jacks, nails, etc. I also included 15% for waste.
Hudson Valley Carpenter,
Well how long does wood last compared to concrete covered with foam?
Will that wall give you up to a 4 hour fire rating? Can it be designed to withstand 200 mph winds? Is it an EPA energy star rating? Does it conform to UBC, NBC, &SBC model building codes as well as the IBC and the IRC?
Does it have New York city's approval MEA 116-03-M as well as most other city codes..
I could go on but apparently you've decided what your priorities are.. It's OK I'm sure you are more comfortable with wood and nails than foam and concrete..
Frenchy,
My only aim in this exchange has been to make cost comparisons based on facts.
In an earlier post you claimed that ICFs and conventional framing had recently become nearly equal in cost. I questioned that statement. And now that I've made my point you've chosen to attack on another front.
You're rapidly losing credibility in my eyes.
If you really want to encourage other DIYers, like yourself, to be more self reliant, just stick to the facts and share what you've learned, without all the hyperbole, and let them take what they can from it.
Edited 3/20/2008 4:57 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
HudsonValley carpenter..
I don't think it was an attack to point out major differances.. But I did know that you wanted budget numbers. Well I can't get the best price if I am only pencil whipping can I? Remember I fattened up all my prices off list price rather than shaved. IN addition I guessed at needed sizes Do you need a 13 inch form for the foundation. Are 9 inch walls big enough or too big? I thought you wanted budget numbers not me to do your job of getting the best deal.
I used rebar prices from him rather than seeking cheaper sources. I calculated using the foam from him rather than cheaper sources. In addition I didn't explain how big the project was or what benefits there would be to him working with me so he could sell to me at wholesale rather than retail..
I could call my supplier and get them to have a bid prepared to show you similar costs but I'm not sure why.. How would he gain here in Minnesota?
I know that if I get traditonal stick built job done the framing costs used to be around 8 to 9 dollars a sq.ft. for labor only. I do know some were built with labor costs around $15.00 and one house. Now days I can find crews willing to do it for $5.00 a sq.ft. (I think, based on what some of my contractor friends tell me when we network).. My point is that when things get tight, belt tightening is called for.. Maybe these ICF builders are being aggressive. I know the supplier is working them a deal. which none of my numbers reflect.
I also know that in a typical delivery during framing the lumberyard bill comes to around 10 to 15 dollars a sq.ft. on a larger custom home.. Budget homes might be less. But that's also not a fair comparison because the lumberyard bill isn't for walls only it's everything.. interior walls, stairs, flooring, trusses, etc..
So I have no real way of comparing numbers for you except by the comments contractors gave me. If I was still active I could make it my next stop to talk to one of the ICF contractors and have him give you numbers but that's been more than 6 months since since I last contacted any of them..
It's very dangerous to compare finished homes because every single ICF home I see is a custom home.. there are no standardized houses. MY best guess based on the spec units for sale around me show one ICF house for sale at 2.8 million and one stick built house for sale at 2.4 million. The differance is the ICF house has a lot with more than twice the lake frontal area but a more shallow lot.. The ICF house's lot is also a better one in that it's got a superior view and the dock isn't 40 or 50 feet below.. They are dramatically differant houses but just eyeballing them I'd guess they are about the same sq.ft. (and no I haven't been in either one so I can't comment).. Both have been on the market for more than a year.
All these numbers are not valid.. they are conversation only from 17 years of doing business with Contractors.. Some may be outdated, some may be calculated with profit or some sort of volume discount..
Finally Located where you are I would think that you should be able to find someone like This old home to come out and help you get all sorts of discounts if you are being creative and innovative.. It's worth a thought anyway..
Edited 3/20/2008 8:29 am ET by frenchy
HVC
Don't forget your cost for installed insulation and VB.
Ron
Thanks for reminding me of this discussion. It's another thread that I should bookmark.
Is that for a plumb, straight wall or a snake-tailed one?;)
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Cost estimate was provided by the local concrete co. who set up a special division a few years back just to do ICF work. I know it is below the local going rate by a buck or so . Building is a simple box. They saw ICF as a way to market their concrete, they handle the whole thing in house as it were.
First indications are I am getting a good price because they want to sell this job, not an area of the market they have cracked yet. Friend who is a BI who built his own house from ICF saw these guys work and told me that they had it dialed, all set up with correct equipment and tools and very professional. What do you (or anyone else know) about this manufacturer? http://formtechsys.com/
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Sounds like they have it down good. A specialty outfit with experience and getting the crete from the same sounds like a sure fire way to get a good pro job.I have not heard of that manufacturer.On my last job, pricing for forms was ranging from 18.95 up to about 23 per form 16" x 48" so the forms are now about 4.25/sq ft here
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I hope so , this is my first go round with ICF and it is a job that while a simple box has walls 20 ft tall.
Plus I am site super and also profit sharing in the outcome so I can't afford to have things go wrong , nor not have the best job possible. I am a bit concerned about the blocks themselves as from what I can gather they aren't of a regional manufacture, But the over all costs is quite good from what I can tell so far and knowing the concrete company is sinking their reputation into the job helps . They even build their own door/window bucks. We just supply the material to them and they take it from there. Be a learning experience. I have appreciated all the threads on ICF's so far here, gives me an edge in what I wanted to look for in a company.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Dovetail, I am now looking at a similar project, I am ARRX certified, but it has been about 10 years since I put up a whole house. Did you get a handle on the labor costs to place the forms, rebar, concrete, etc?
I have the costs for all the materials, just trying to get a labor cost that's competitive.
when you are up to yur knees in gators, make gatorade
Edited 3/13/2009 10:14 am by Heck
Edited 3/13/2009 10:18 am by Heck
You will have to do the math.... I got a full price bid for everything, labor, ICF materials, concrete, rebar, pump trucks etc. Total package.
Only thing I bought was PT 3 x 10 for the door and window bucks and some special holddowns. They provided all the normal anchors.
Price included electrical boxes placed and connected using "smurf" tube to top of pours. I know concrete is about $90 a yard here, maybe a bit more more for the mix used in the walls because of the design. 8" uniform thickness wall. 242 lin. ft @ 20' tall, 123 lin. ft @ 16' tall, includes 1 14' x 14' door opening, one 6' x 6' door opening and three man doors, 9 window and vent openings averaging 4' x 5' 6" $90,000 +/- (excluded footings and bar in footings.)
About 140" of wall function as retaining walls, has extra bar therefore. I got 3 quotes for the job and they were within 3k of each other.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thank you, dove. Doing the math gets me to $13.22/sqft.
Concrete here is $100/yd. Using BuildBlock, my figures come to 10.25/sqft before profit/overhead.
I guess I'm in the neighborhood.
I'll go check out your thread now, thanks again.
when you are up to yur knees in gators, make gatorade
Edited 3/13/2009 6:59 pm by Heck
No problem. Glad the number and info helped. BTW that price included all the lifts, bracing and scaffolding used as well.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
dovetail,
I've worked with Formtech, maybe four small foundations.
The block is similar to Integra spec in that you assemble it as you go, sliding in the webs to tie the sides together. You get a bit of a saving on shipping costs that way.
The advantages: these blocks lock into a solid unit when the webs are in - they aren't floppy like Integra-spec. I like the separable blocks. They are easier to fit around window and door bucks than unitary blocks, but the looseness of Integra spec makes them hard to get straight and flat. These things are a good deal stiffer once installed than IS. Formtech blocks also have a very strong corner, one of the strongest I've seen. Nothing is going to blow there. The webs are also strong and can be tied with a lot of force if necessary. (Integra spec webs are brittle). another adantage is that they are new to the field, been around maybe three or four years, and are still working hard to get a market share. You might be able to get a good price from them.
Disadvantages: Not many. I don't like the smooth interior surface. I like to have the mud mechanically bonded to the foam. Other than that, they are a good product.
However, I think they are all good and I often pick the product to suit the job because there are small pros and cons to all of them which make one more suitable than another for a particular job. But, once they are installed and filled, they are functionally nearly all the same. Buy by price.
Ron
Check out this thread. http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=106306.1 Formtech block.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
dovetail
Beautiful! Need a hand?
Ron
Not right at the moment .... Never can tell about the future though.
I am still learning about the ICF nuances. Blocking for grab rails, hand rails, machine anchor points .. DUH... not the same as other styles of construction.
Busy cutting little squares of styrofoam out and inserting blocking...BEFORE the dry wall covers my walls.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
dovetail,
I have just finished reading through the thread on your winery job. What a great job! It looks very good and, after all the challenges you have overcome with it, you ought to be pretty pleased with yourself. I'd be swelled up ready to bust.
Ron
Thank you. I will wait until I am all done though ... things have a way of happening if you know what I mean. Need to take some pics today. 80% of the outside concrete has been poured, plumbers, electricians, hvac passed rough in so I now have drywallers hanging the first of 3 layers of rock on the ceiling.
Still waiting on trim and siding decisions so no exterior finishes applied yet.
Welders are busy making railings, stairs etc.
Progress is being made.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I wish building costs here were as cheap as some of the numbers I have seen in this thread. Just finishing a 2000 sq ft bungalow with walkout basement. The basement has 9' finished ceilings, and the square footage of ICF walls (which are basement only) works out also to about 2000sq ft of wall.
The cost was very close to $30/sq ft ( about $60,000 total) for the footings (plus a few inches of compacted material under them), ICF walls for the basement only, and waterproof membrane on the outside.
If I had gotten quotes for $15/sq ft or so... I would have been jumping for joy !