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Hello all.
I have been following this board for several months. As I am just an apprentice carpenter, I have not until now had anything to say,just trying to learn as much as I could from the many knowledgeable people who frequent this place. I have seen most of Larry Haun’s videos because the trade school I attended had them in the library. I did not on any of his videos or anywere on this board see anyone claiming that he was “so smart”…..so what kind of s#%* is that to say? What are you jealous that FHB is asking him to make framing videos and not you, or is it that he is faster with a hammer than you are with air?
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Hello all.
I have been following this board for several months. As I am just an apprentice carpenter, I have not until now had anything to say,just trying to learn as much as I could from the many knowledgeable people who frequent this place. I have seen most of Larry Haun's videos because the trade school I attended had them in the library. I did not on any of his videos or anywere on this board see anyone claiming that he was "so smart".....so what kind of s#%* is that to say? What are you jealous that FHB is asking him to make framing videos and not you, or is it that he is faster with a hammer than you are with air?
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Im jealous.
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I just don't believe he can stand up straight.
Every picture I have seen of him he's bent over at the waist, knees straight, sawing stuff by the end of his foot. If he teaches anything it is how to cripple yourself.
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I have read most of his articles in FHB and while I may not subscribe to a lot of his production methods as I have nearly always worked on custom homes. I think He deserves some credit for shear volume .He has probably framed more houses than any five of us combined ,not counting Blue of course. I would like to think I could still frame when I'm his age ,hell I probably couldnt frame all week now. Respectfully Chuck
*Arcwood,For those with experience it is known that standing straight legged and bending down to work puts less stress on the back because you just hang from your extended back muscles verses having to have them contracting...Wood floor installers have been known to take off handle extensions on floor nailerrs so as to work with it with back fully extended and resting....Maybe Larry knows way more than you....Near the stream,J
*daFlash, ArcWood,I've read many articles by Larry Haun over the years. His articles have been informative, and I appreciate his efforts to share his knowledge with the rest of us. I would welcome the opportunity to sit down and share talk with him over dinner and a brewski. I've been reading posts in Breaktime for several months and haven't noticed any posts from either of you. To jump in with us with such a negative opinion about a journeyman carpenter doesn't wash with me.What exactly have either of you done to put yourselves in postions to criticize a person who has devoted his life to the trades?
*Jack for an old guy... you make a valid argument.It's far easier to straighten up at the end of the day, when your legs are there already. I'd bet Larry's shoes have less blade cuts than some knees I've seen.Flash, some guys still hand nail everything! Some will air nail some things, yet hand nail others, believing a better "set" occurs from handnailing. If you've the wrists for it, hand nailing still works, no hoses to drag and set-up, no expensive nailer and compressor, greater mobility on the site... It's a point of view.Which of your pneumatic nailers can drive 18ga brads, 1 1/4" roof nails and 16d galvies one after the other? A 16oz hammer can.
*daFlash,I have just this year added air to my arsenal of tools. I didn't do it because I think it produces a better house but a slightly faster one. All my framing is still done by hand that way I can feel confident that my walls are tight. I guess a sledge hammer after air nailing can do that too but I don't subscribe to the bigger hammer theory. I back nail my plywood, install my roofing and install trim with air because those are the applications I feel warrant its use. You might want to take another look at Mr. Hauns teachings, an open mind might aborb a thing or two. New ways are not always better ways.
*I always try to get young guys to GO SLOW when using pneumatic guns. They already make you faster, if you don't slow down, they make you dangerous. As for anybody questioning an old war horse like Larry Haun, I just don't get it. He could produce rings around most any young buck and he deserves our respect."A working class hero is something to be."
*Well, daFlash didn't exactly set out to denigrate him -- he just asked why someone would risk carpal tunnel syndrome when there are nice easy air nailers out there. I saw part of a Haun video (Taunton has clips online) where he explained that he demonstrated hand nailed 'cause not everyone has an air gun. He proceeded to nail off a subfloor with two clean hits per 8d, like clockwork. I tried to do the same and, well, the thumbnail did grow back. Impressive, if anachronistic, talent.The air gun is probably better for your health and profit. But it doesn't make you a good carpenter.
*Hey George I want to know what you are building where you need to drive 18ga brads, 1 1/4" roof nails and 16d galvies one after the other. Just curious.I use air for most things because its faster, therefore uses less labour which makes me competitive. Without air I may as well change careers or take a huge pay cut.That said I still can't throw away my 22 oz. framer, some things such as toe nailing crooked lumber to pull it straight just can't be done better any other way. At least I haven't found one yet.You gotta give Larry Haun a lot of credit to be bangin' nails at his age. I'm probably not much more than half his age and I couldn't hand nail all my houses, My wrist just wouldn't be able to keep up. Too many years using an estwing has killed my wrist. I've recently switched to one of those japanese fiberglas framing hammers from Lee Valley tools. It's a little lighter than I'm used to but I like it and it's a lot easier on my wrist.
*AndrewNice touch, the use of 'anachronistic'...... Know what you mean about the thumbnail business too; looks pretty smooth and easy till ya' start and realize your temerity (or your thumb does)at thinking "this won't be any trouble at all"S.
*I haven't seen the video, but I do have a thought to add. Everyone (even Bob Villa) is good at some part of something he does. You might not agree with everything this guy does, but might be able to pick out a thing or 2 that's useful. Don't dismiss the entire video over one point like air/hand nailing.
*Albert - one of those funny looking ones with the long snout and kind of "cat's paw looking" claws? -yb
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You have to admit it... even though some of these guys are twice our age, they can still outperform us in many areas: My father and grandfather both framed houses and built custom cabinets through out thier lives, well into "retirement". My father, just hitting 60, still has me running to keep up on most jobs. And he doesn't like to wait! To boot, he was a jorneyman electrician for 35 years prior to retiring, and he would routinely accept the challenge from apprentices to a "race", all work having to pass inspection and standards, of course - he usually stops by to see if he can help them finish, since he's already done!
I truly believe that they learned to use thier muscle groups effeciently, while many of us grew up in a "softer" work climate: if you think framing by hand is tough, try not using ANY power saws as well! My father and uncle were always trying to think of ways to invent a "good" chop saw prior to the wide spread use. And this was day in, day out.
For me, I will always tip my hat to these gents. I only hope that I can one day stand even in thier shadow, let alone thier shoes! Besides, dad and grandpa are my "heroes" - they taught me everything about the building process - and I hope to carry on the tradition! Now I need a son to pass it on to, as well!
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Andrew, who's bob haun? and I'll be impressed too if he was driving 8d screw nails into that deck with a set and a hit! Especially if he were pounding them into frozen yellow pine joists, through frozen t&g ply!
Those are the things that i remember bout deck nailing, and we didn't whack them in two! It was three on good lumber (hem fir, spf, etc) and four or five on the harder stuff. And we were never allowed to use the greasy 8's! Oh no, we had to use 8d, brite, diamond point, screw shank!
I now use the air, and get just as good results. At least I think so, 'cause I've never had any blow off in a wind!
*Arcwood, a good framer uses his feet more than you might think. Kinda like a monkey, we have to make do with all our tools. my chiropractor told me that the straight knees are hard on the lower back. All my athletic sports training also says the same thing. But, a lot of framers work that way, cause it's easier than flexing them knees. Like my first foreman used to say " all I want to see is a**holes and elbows"!Or should that be foreperson?politically incorrect, as usual,Blue
*What do you mean that you don't subscribe...to production methods...because you work on custom homes.I'm almost tired of hearing that, because it sounds so condescending. Maybe all custom framers should clear out of here, and head to the Fine woodworking site!I've spent 25 years roughing, and have framed two or three pulte (tracts in our area) homes, all the rest custom, but I have always worked the same: as fast as I can, as good as I can.Get off your high horse.Does this post qualify me for the big five Jack? I'm having trouble getting mentioned for the honors, and I'd like to spice up my act!Sorry for hammering you so bad Chuck, but I gotta start somewhere!Blue
*Ken, don't run these young trouble makers out of here just yet! Just cause they never posted here doesn't mean that they can't start now!By the way, do they believe in blocking?Blue
*Ken, I too resisted air, in my early years. i too thought that a hand pounded house was superior.I'm not convinced any more. i think that they are equal, with the edge toward air, if the trademen want to make it better. When I first started using air for roughing, I don't think I was equal to handpounding. Why? Because they require a different mindset. Most of our techniques are developed around our tools, and if a 20 oz hammer is the main tool, your techniques will be best for it. It took me a few years to morph, but finally, I am here. I'm sure I still can learn a few more tricks before I retire, but most of my techniques are centered on the use of air now, and work just fine. The more you use it, the more tricks you will learn (see my circular stair posts using the wide crown staples).One of the most important things that I teach the new bucks...use the hammer to tighten the frame as you go (if it needs it)! No sledging the walls here!Blue
*daFlash,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Have to agree with Andrews underlying statement. It dosen't matter wich if it's a good carpenter.
*Blue,You'll never ever qualify for the "top five definite flamers" because you almost always make sense and stick to backing up your thoughts verses the "Your moma must wear army boots" and the "put down the crack pipe for awhile" posts...Keep trying though....and you'll soon be a "Master Flaming Boogerer!"Near the stream, and not lettin Blue in the exclusive club,J
*Check out the video. (You need RealVideo.) the quality of the clip is poor, so I can't tell whether he's using deformed shank...
*Yeah, the thumb usually pays the price.
*Ahhh, blocking. Now did I ever tell you about the good old days, when there was blocking everywhere...
*Hey Blue,I never said I was resisting air, I am just moseying over to it. I've taken my time learning the old ways so I guess I'd better hurry up learning the new ones. Still swingin'KMH
*Gee guysDo I have to hand in my membership card 'cause I've never used air? I look at pictures of Larry workin and it's just like home.i Too(o) young to be a geezer-P
*blue,Thank you for your replies, and opinions.My post to daFlash and ArcWood, apparently sent the wrong message to you. I'm in no way trying to "run them off" from Breaktime. In addition, I haven't read or seen the article by Larry Haun regarding hand nailing that has been referred to.What got into my crawl, was the "attitude" of the post, by daFlash, "If Larry Haun's so smart"If he instead, opened the thread, "Do agree or disagree with hand nailing proceedures as suggested by Larry Haun?" I wouldn't have a problem.It was his "Hollier than thou" attitude that turned me. There is a lot to be said for hand driving, and equally, about air driving, but I don't think a person's integrity, ( smartness ) has to be included in the discussion.
*Young Bob.Yeah, that's the one. I was a little sceptical at first but the salesman at the Lee Valley store told me to buy it, try it out for a month and if I didn't like it they would give me my money back. That was three months ago. It works well for pulling nails ie. form stripping, and the recess in the head so you can start and drive a nail with one hand works great. It's one of those things that you wonder what you ever did without.
*Ken, you are right. The same topic would start out a whole lot calmer, if questions were worded more civially!Unfortunatley, many of the things we say, in the real world, sound okay, depending on voice inflection, but do not translate well to paper/net. I'm sure that many a flame war started out unintentionally, due to this fact.One of the things that the net has done for me was to make me more aware of how things can be interpretted. In my real life, I am much more unlikely to use sarcasm, as a result of my net retraining. The best part? Things are going much smoother out there for me, some as a direct result of better communications with others.Thank you net!I did not take exception to Daflash's "if larry so smart" rhetoric. I saw it as a humorous attempt to lead in, but I can easily see where it looks like a condescending attitude too. I guess if I was sensitive to it, I would have asked daFlash to clarify, prior to me attempting to "re-socialize" him. I'm just not that sensitive, but I really don't mind if you are. I'm just trying to welcome all or more opinions, no matter how diverse.Or is that a her?politically all messed up,Blueps. got my new beast (flame red, 99 Dodge Ram, quad 4, 5.9 litre Cummings, Turbocharged 24v Diesel, loaded! arhh, arhh, arhh) last night and I could hardly sleep! I gotta go fire her up, and wake up the lake!
*Crap! How'd you know my momma wore them boots?!boogerin' & flammin' & smokin' the pipe with the best,Blue
*Tell us 'bout them good old days, Adrian.I quit telling stories, even if they are true. The boys used to tell me that I was a "legend in my own mind". I think they meant to say I was "a legend in my own time"!We used to have huge piles of blocks at the end of the job, now we have small scraps. The nail gun has changed my framing techniques,and make me so much more efficient!Blue
*I agree with your slow approach Young Bob! I too work very carefully with the nailing machine. Too much speed jams the gun, so I'm avoiding two problems with one common sense approach.Speed is attained through an organized, systematic, thorough framing technique. Moving the gun at maximum speed cannot be justified. It will not overcome the inevitable jam. Also, many times, single shot pressure must be used to tighten the frame. That's the quality issue that many hand pounders rail about. I rail about it too, and the boys have managed to tighten up their act!still hawkeyed,<BlueOh yeah, I forgot to mention: An old war horse like Haun should be challenged. Sometimes the challenges are valid, sometimes the challenger learns something. In either case, challenging is a win-win deal.
*Blue, sounds like a great truck enjoy!! As far as Larry's concerned I don't know all of his work but from what I've seen he's one of the top pros around.Any experinced professional should know that air nailing, hand nailing,speed,quality and competitive pricing all have an appropriate place on our job sites.The trick is knowing when,where and why.That's what seperates the men(women) from the boys.Vince
*Blue my post was one that obviously didnt translate well to net.After rereading my post it should have said "although I may not use some of his production methods ( leave out part about custom homes ) I think he deserves credit etc. etc.". I also believe in working as fast as I can without sacrificing quality or relative saftey .I was thinking of production framing as building the same house with a slight roof change one after the other right on down the street and I have never done that.As for mentioning you in my post ,that was my attempt at a compliment .Oh well hope I helped get you into the Flaming Five Chuck proofreading twice posting once
*Chuck, I really didn't think your post was offensive at all. I just used it to vent a little frustration about many comments that are aimed at "production" framers.Often, they are characterized as the "bottom feeders". It implies that they are now "worthy" carpenters, when in fact, they are just like you and I (sometimes). It might be true, that some tract framers are low skilled, and dont' worry about quality, but I know some very skilled people that choose to do that type of work for different reasons. My ex partner is one of them. He likes the mundanesness, along with the repetitiveness, because he can make a very decent living, without making a life commitment to employees. He is quite capable of sophisticated homes, but would rather not think that hard.He can also build boats out of teak, and outframe me in the rough.My message, short and simple: Don't generalize and pigeonhole.Blue
*Where'd you come from? Back from filming the first few episodes with "fiyo"?
*It's one of Jack's events for the Breaktime FallFest '99 Albert. Dollhouse/Doghouse/Coathook.
*I don't think we are talking about the same tool - mine doesn't have a nailholding slot, but about a year ago I hired a guy who brought a funny looking hammer to work. I tried it out, bought one, and absolutely love it. It has yellow fiberglass shaft, with black rubber handle with (I think) cm marked on grip in increments of ten. But the most distinctive feature is the head - short claws and a very long "snout". It's maybe 16 or 18oz but it's a nail drivin' fool for sure. I call it Ardvark. Love that hammer man. - yb
*BlueI bet you could hardly sleep, worried about paying for the new rig. What, about 38K. Just a little jealous, I have a 94 Ram 4x4 but would love to have a new one.S.
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Well I've been gone for a week or two (home shows I'm still in a fog) or I would have jumped in earlier. I agree with many of yu and hope that when I reach Larrys age I'm still banging nails ( I'm 47 now) I do not agree with all that he does in his books and videos but he is a master at the trade. Years back my kids use to kid me because I would walk around and say "Hi, I'm Larry Haun" and copy his voice from his framing video. I could not imagine being with out my Senco's but sometimes you got to set em with a hammer. sometimes on a nice day it is nice just to be out there swinging with out the sound of a gun or compressor. I swing a 25 oz Hart california framer. We keep his framing book in the trailer (but it gets a lot of dust) right next to the code books and other references. I think Larry still works in the southern Oregon area, but if he is ever up in the Willamette Valley (Oregon) I would love to meet him....and hey Larry if you arew getting any of these posts. if you are ever building any habitat for humanity homes I might travel down to help you.
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Yeah, Lisa, a daughter would work just fine, huh!
Filming, I wish, lol! My computer crashed.
Patty
*Actually Scott, I sleep very well. I only owe 26 grand!26,000$????!!!!!!! My first house was only 17,500$ !This is the first loan that I ever took out for a work truck. The boys in this forum talked me into it. I'm upgrading my image, and am looking to see if it upgrades my pay!Blue
*Larry's smart enough to stay above the fray. How could a "Blue Eyed Devil" need an image upgrade? Other than a new pair of jeans?
*Young Bob.Your hammer definitely sounds similar to mine. You can see a really good picture of mine on line at http://www.leevalley.com click on "woodworking" then "woodworking products, accessories" then "assorted tools" then "nailing hammer". The pic. is large and shows the recessed head with magnet very well. I love mine too. Wouldn't trade it for all the estwings in the world.
*Bleu. . . friggin wierd thing ta spend $26K on!!In your case isn't that i justtransportation? That kind of $$ would go along way to buying me a year off to smell the roses, or putter in my workshop buildin birdhouses with sliding dovetail dadoes.
*Patrick, I've already has so much time off the past five years, I am bored. I'd rather not putter any more in my worksop!And I tried dove tails once, too many feathers, and not enough meat! They do taste like chicken however!The 26k is a lot of dough, but it is all relative. I spent 16k on my last new truck, and it lasted 10 yrs. This one will easily laxt ten years, and give me much better milage, at less per mile. (diesel is 103 now, gas was 121). In ten years, I will have saved about 10K on fuel! I could drive a vw, and tote a small trailer. Weird people like that rarely get anywhere in the manly construction world that I live in. Even if I could find builders that let me frame, I don't think I could keep a crew. Happy as a lark in his new ram,Blue
*BleuSounds like your workin yourself outa work, which would be a good deal if you enjoyed the down time. . . sounds like you don't. . . time for a transplant!!Actually I don't do much puttering either. . . prefer to stare blankly off into space.If you use the dovetail feathers to sheath the birdhouse you can get some laughs watchin the males try to mate with the. . . box. . . Fine Bird TortureSpending too(o) much time with eco-dweebs
*I enjoy being home, and I enjoy working.I will be looking for the dovetail feathers, cause I do enjoy a laff!
*
All right here we go. First off Larry haun and his brother joe are the real thing.Larry can be credited with teaching western platform framing to thousands of so.cal. carpenters( I,m one of them!)I am now a general contractor and construction educator.If you see Larry using his Deluge(hart) instead of his hitachi it is only so the rookies can identify.Not every one can afford air tools right out of the gate.Also , production framing is king in so.cal. and that means 20,000 sq.feet houses. You see in so.cal. framing is far from glamoruos. We now are using wall crews to frame in 2 weeks what used to be a house that I could count on for 4-6 months of work. And yes the wall crews are sloppy. So as a general, we use the sawzall alot but on paper the savings is tremenduos.If things get screwed up alittle along the way , it,s no biggy fix it ( just like spiccoli in fast times at ridgemont high , my dad,s got an awesome set of tools).So if you think larry isn,t using air tools regalarly you have your head wedged!
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I wonder if I could order Buffalo Dovetails next Wednesday at Madame Jumels after volleyball with the gang...hmmmm non fattening and maybe enhance my flying.
Near the stream, lookin for some tail,
J
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OOPS!!
Sorry, George! I didn't mean to upset you! Or maybe your just jealous? By the way - if you want to see HOW far this construction thing goes back, try looking up a few sites about Knowlton Manor in Canterbury, England. Yup, I'm purdy damned proud to be associated with that, too!
Start a heritage and stop hating your father, George...
*
Jack
What Happened to the
i crack
female plumber. . . fly away on ya???
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I've had the privilage of working with Larry and his brother Joe on a couple of Habitat for Humanity houses. They can drive nailes as fast as an more accurately than most frames who trip nail. You should see them work.
*::looking around:: So, this is the fine homebuilding discussion I've heard about? hehe, everyone trying to talk about Larry Haun. I've seen most of his videos and well, he is the man. I bet he drives a Ford truck too!! If I recall correctly he did indeed us an air nailer in one of his videos though. I can't remember which one it was so, don't ask. If I could nail anywhere close to that fast as he does I don't think I'd ever use an air nailer either. Air nailers are a pain in the buttock. The guns are heavy, you have to drag around the air hose, rolls or sticks of nails depending on which nailer you're using, and you still need a hammer and regular nails for things you can't nail with an air gun. My hat's off to Larry.
*If you guys would have purchased a good truck to begin with you would't have to spend 26 K. I bought a48 and 49 Diamond T still run ride as rough as when new . The headlites don't go into coon huntin mode when you LOAD them.
*
?
*Eric, you've been cross threaded... the comment was for Lisa.
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I have been gone a while since my post on ole straight legged Larry and I must say I'm suprised.
Everyone that I have come across who has been in this business for any length of time (myself 30 years) has had back problems. I bartered a lot of work at the local chiropractor until about 10 years ago when I started doing 2 things. 1st I do all my work at a safe level with clear footing all around. 2nd I stopped reaching down to the ground for my saw with my right hand every time. Seems the same motion to pick it up put a kink in my spine. And listen... if you are in the habit of not bending your knees you'll not bend them to pick something heavy up and there you go. No tight legged pants or straight legged bending!
*None!!
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why does he hand nail a complete house instead of using air?