I am making an inventory of building material incompatabilities (for example, the interaction of solvent-based caulking with polystyrene).
If you have any firsthand experience with construction materials that cause damage to other materials, I would appreciate hearing about them. And, if you have found a solution to the incompatability, I would also like to hear about that.
Low-e storm panels improve the energy efficiency of these old sash windows without changing their classic look.
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24 oz. waffle head framing hammer and clear pine casings.
Solution- Senco trim gun.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
How about a 24 Oz. waffle head and a thumb ???
I love animals. Then I found out in some states you can actually be arrested for that.
Doesn't have to be a waffle head
Ouch! I guess it is too late to tell you to run that thumb under cold water so it doesn't turn black, eh?
Maybe it is time to flatten the face of that hammer before it happens again...
Bob, that's a nice job on the nail without damaging any of the surrounding meat. Must take a lot of practice? Joe H
"Bob, that's a nice job on the nail without damaging any of the surrounding meat. Must take a lot of practice?"
Years!
It was one of those that right after starting the swing, my mind shouted "Wait a goddam minute, stupid" and I eased up slightly on the swing, but not enough.
It was a beautiful silverish metallic blue for the first couple of days, and has stayed the full blue for a couple of weeks now.
Bob, see that thread about new words for 2002......soundslike one of those "ohnoseconds"? Joe H
Bob! Bob! You didn't drill that thumbnail!? How did you sleep? Next time grab one of those tiny drill bits in the bottom of your pouch, place it on your fingernail and just turn it back and forth between your fingers. It will auger right down thru the nail--auger down until the blood flows and it will stop throbbing--I didn't say it will quit hurting. Did I say that a sharp bit is better than a dull one? Do it again from time to time to keep blood from filling up under the nail---It keeps the throbbing pain away.
Waffle hammer and a big toe??
Aren't you supposed to his nails with a hammer or is it the other way around - like hammers are supposed to hit nails?
Ducks see a swimming pool and think "pond". Hammers see a fingernail and see "nail" so they hit it.
-Peter
I'd rather be a nail than a hammer.
Kids and veggies.
Men and flowery sh..
Toilet lids and those damn fuzzy covers.
Roar!Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
Lots of solvents and glues on Foam insulation.
>solution, market as "Swiss Foam"
Some sanding sealers with polyurethene don't adhere well
stains with some stearates with other stains cause tarry goo
>solution, read the labels
Excellence is its own reward!
I've never seen it, but I hear construction adhesive eats away the silvering on mmirrors, so you buy the mirror stuff.
Metals: copper pipe gets a copper(or plastic) clamp and a COPPER nail.
Some cabinet makers don't like silicon spray on there tables saws, ####'s up lacquer.
Galvanized nail for pt lumber, even inside, salt eats the steel nail.
Stainless fasteners for redwood and cedar.
Peace Pot Microdot
Edited 9/30/2002 6:04:06 PM ET by panama red
Edited 9/30/2002 6:10:16 PM ET by panama red
Edited 9/30/2002 6:13:26 PM ET by panama red
Edited 9/30/2002 6:14:46 PM ET by panama red
"Galvanized nail for pt lumber, even inside, salt eats the steel nail."
Remember that some of us live a good distance away from the coast...
"Stainless fasteners for redwood and cedar."
Do you mean you should only use stainless for these types?
Jon Blakemore
Wallpaper and spouses. Nothing will ruin a good marriage like hanging wall paper with your spouse [/;>)Ditch
>>"Galvanized nail for pt lumber, even inside, salt eats the steel nail."
>Remember that some of us live a good distance away from the coast...
Its the salts in the pt [pressure treated] wood.
At the risk of being proved ignorant I will say that I have never heard of salt in PT. Jon Blakemore
Jon,
I don't know if there is actually salt in P.T. There is a pressure treating plant not far from where I live. Sometimes, just after the wood is treated a crysttaline substance emerges and forms on the surface of the wood, guys who work there call this 'salt' and avoid it because the cca can be absorbed thru the skin very easily at this point. I've heard them say:..."stay away from that pile for awhile..it's salted."Ditch
955-3 Process.
For round timber piling, structural timber, sheet piling, posts, braces, and all other timber items,
the treatment shall be by the full cell process.
955-4 Requirements for Preservative Materials.
955-4.1 Salt Preservative: The salt preservative shall be chromated copper arsenate of the
following compositions:
Minimum (%) Maximum (%)
Hexavalent Chromium, as CrO3 33.0 50.5
Copper, as CuO 17.0 22.0
Arsenic, as As2O5 30.0 48.0
The active ingredients in the solution shall be in proportions within the range required for
the salt itself.
The pH of the treating solution shall be between 1.6 and 3.2.
Tests to determine conformance with the foregoing requirements shall be made in
accordance with the standard methods of the American Wood Preservers' Association, Standard A2.
Random samples of the preservative will be tested by the Department's Office of Materials and Research.
When Douglas Fir is used, ammoniacal copper arsenate shall be used as the salt
preservative in lieu of chromated copper arsenate. Ammoniacal copper arsenate shall meet the
requirements of ASTM D 1325. Tests to determine conformance shall be in accordance with AWPA
Standard A-2.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I know there are concentrations of arsenic in PT that can be harmful to small children, alot of parents have me build their playsets out of white cedar.
Is it possible this is the "salt" the workers avoid?
I've never seen ''salt" on PT.
I've relaced boards on PT decks I've built 15 years later and never found a bad galvanized nail. (east coast)
sometimes board sometimes knot
"salt" does not only mean what we consider table salt. A "salt" is a whole category of chemicals, as has been noted before.
My curiousity is still piqued...
Does PT eat galv. nails?
Jon Blakemore
Northern VA, very humid in summers but no salt air. Have been involved with decks since '76, never seen PT "eat" a hot dipped galvanized nail. I have seen minor corrosion on nail heads from the coating getting cracked during hammering. Have also seen some where the coating was scratched off while going into hangers. Wouldn't be surprised if low quality HDG or electro coated nails began to show rust inside the lumber though due to the thinness of the coating and being being inside oftentimes wet wood. Some incidental rust, sure. But "eatting", like putting in 12d's & having them change to 6d's in two years--never.
Al
"I have seen minor corrosion on nail heads from the coating getting cracked during hammering. Have also seen some where the coating was scratched off while going into hangers."
Why not use stainless steel? It really does not cost that much more and you can use it as a selling point (My competitors use galvanized but My projects all have stainless steel that will last a life time).
There was an article on building durable decks in FHB several years ago. It included a sidebar about an ongoing test of deck materials at the Forest Products Lab in Madison, WI. They showed a picture of different fasteners after 20 years in service. The stainless steel nail looked just like new. All the regular steel nails, including the galvanized nails, were completely rusted away or covered with rust and well on their way to rusting away. I can see using galvanized nails in roofing, where you really don't expect the nails to get wet, but not in a deck. I would always specify stainless in any application where I anticipated liquid water, even sporadically.
I believe that was using a salt spray test. I always assumed that the rate of corrosion would be greatly reduced when it's just water with no salt. I might be wrong.
Jon Blakemore
The one I was thinking of was in FHB #102, page 79. It was only 14 years, not 20. They don't say anything about salt spray. In fact, they don't mention liquid water at all, just that the test blocks were kept in a high humidity atmosphere for 14 years.
They compared stainless, hot dip galvanized, electro-galvanized, and mechanically plated. In the text, they make the point that hot dipped last longer than electro-galvnized, but in the picture, I couldn't see much difference. All three galvanized nails were completely covered with rust, while the stainless nail was still bright.
I haven't priced the difference between stainless and galvanized fasteners, but if you think of it as a percentage of the cost of a whole deck, I can't imagine that it would be much.
I did a comparison for stainless vs. galvanized.
The stainless material was priced from http://www.stainless-fasteners.com
I am assuming 1' of length on a deck that is 12' wide (width is parallel with joists).
I came up with:
Stainless- $12.32 per foot of ledger
Galvanized- $5.25 per foot of ledger
I included 5 3" nails, 42 2-1/2" screws, 2 5" carriage bolts, nuts and washers, .75 joist hanger (assuming 16" oc) and 6 hanger nails.
So, a 12'x20' deck with no railing on the sides of the deck would be $246 with stainless and $105 with galvanized. Only about $.50/sq. ft.
If it's a concern, it would seem expedient to use stainless throughout.
Jon Blakemore
Thanks for the numbers. That's about what I expected.
> .... and mechanically plated.
What is mechanically plated? How are they made?
As for stainless, I can't find them at any local suppliers. They have to be mail ordered from Swan.
-- J.S.
I'm paraphrasing from an article I read some years ago, so if anybody has the true facts on mechanically plated nails, speak right up.
The put the nails and zinc powder in a drum and tumble them. As two nails bump into each other with a zinc particle between them, some of
the zinc sticks to the nails. Sounds dodgy to me. Maybe it was cheaper than electro-plating during the energy crisis.
"Salt -
6. (Chem.) The neutral compound formed by the union of an acid and a base; thus, sulphuric acid and iron form the salt sulphate of iron or green vitriol."
I am not sure if the chemical compounds in CCA are properly called a salt or not, but I heard it offen called a "salt".
Bill,
Have you or anybody else heard that PT kills galvanized fasteners?Jon Blakemore
The chemicals used in PT are indeed "salts". Not table salt or sea salt, but still of a kind that enable ionic reactions that can weaken the metalic coating of zinc on the galvanized nail.
I work for folks who have more than enough money, with the result that they have been known to change their minds about a project or part of their home well before it wears out. This means that I often find myself tearing something apart that I have built to stand for a generation and more after as little as two years. In the process, I have pulled hot dipped galvanized nails out of PT lumber more times than I care to. It is a rare one that does not show signs of rust beginning. It is certainly not as extensive as rust on CCs would be, but it is enough to be aware that the zinc coating is less effective in PT lumber than it is in KD spruce.
I do live and work on the coast but I make the same observation in locations where there is no exposure to sea salt.
Hope you find this observation of value to you..
Excellence is its own reward!
Bodies and the ground, after the body has fallen X amount distance.
HUH???.
Excellence is its own reward!
AKA deceleration sickness, AKA cement poisoning.
1st climber: I'm not afraid of heights, it's falling I'm afraid of.
2nd climber: I'm not afraid of falling, it's hitting the ground I'm afraid of.
Just curiois - Will the new treated lumber also have chemicals that react with galvanized nails? Or does it use a different kind of "salts"?
I want you beside me when I'm old and gray. Actually, I need someone to lean on so I don't fall.
Yes, they are properly called salts.
David Thomas, chemical engineer, Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Imcompatible materials .................... a couple of Bud six packs and a second story roofing job.
or Bud and any job
Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
...suspenders and a belt together.....tie tack and tie bar...Ditch
I love the fact that there are a few posts that gamely try to stick to the original topic of this post. Interspersed with the discussion of pressure treated wood and stainless vs galvanized fasteners, it's like drinking beer with coffee chasers for 6 hours. Your body can't figure out what to do next....
Incompatible materials: Beer and coffee chasers.Ditch
Beer and coffee chasers.?????
I think Newf covered this in another disscusion.
Decaf. coffee we call BEER.
I'm sorry Cairo, I don't believe I see any listing of incompatible materials in your post. I think you should stick to the original intent of the thread.
<G>Jon Blakemore
"tie tac and tie bar"......
Went to a buddies wedding a few short years ago. Same buddy I wasn't allowed to play with anymore...seems some married guy(me) was getting the single guy(him) into trouble with the soon to be wife.....kept him out late on school nites, got him drunk, made him have fun and such...but I digress.....
So we're at the wedding reception, and I get a close look at her idiot major guido brother......he's wearing a collarless shirt....top button buttoned......with a tie bar hooked over the top button!
One of those gold tie bar's...flat metal that goes behind the tie...a little gold chain that keeps the tie from swinging......
And this dude is wearing it like it's some button decoration..maybe he thinks it's really a little clip on gold tie, or something!
I must say....it matched him perfctly.....gotta love a guy from Pgh that talks with a fake Brooklyn accent!
So maybe we can add...tie bars...and no tie?
Jeff
I have a pic of him around here somewhere.....too good to pass up.......
styling and smiling!
.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
frequently , I'm given materials, and told how to install it, as far as wood siding goes, we use stainless nails. You can buy some cedar shingles for roofing and the supplier will sell you galvanized nails to install them with.Peace Pot Microdot
Hello Jon
Can ypou provide more detail about your experience with galvanized nails and PT wood indoors- How long did it take for the nails to corrode and what were the service conditions?
Is the only solution the use of stainlss steel nails?
John Burrows
I don't know if you meant to address this to me or not, but...
Ideally, you should not have corrosion problems indoors. The only place water should ("should" as in typical problems) come from is up through a slab, a roof leak, or with a plumbing leak. Vapor barrier, good roof and flashing, and proper plumbing should alleviate any issues indoors.
I cannot say that I've seen rusted HD galv nails indoors, to the best of my knowledge.Jon Blakemore
Acid cure silicone and galvanized or painted steel, use Lexel instead.
KK
Using paint thinner (mineral spirits) to thin spar varnish or clean brushes used to spread same. Use laquer thinner. (Unless you need some gummy slime for something).
Edited 9/30/2002 8:51:34 PM ET by Notchman
silicone as mirror mastic---not good
Concrete and aluminum
Galvanized and aluminum
DW and me
taking bets?
PT and AL. The copper in the PT (both CCA and ACQ) reacts with the AL. For that matter, copper and AL.
Red Cedar and copper. Maybe contrary to popular belief, but more than one reference book I've read warns against it, and I have replaced flashings with pin holes in it.
Helo Dave
Can you provide a litle more dtail please. What kind of flashing do you use with WRC shingles? If it is galvanized, does the tannin in the wood cause the zinc coating to disappear faster than it would normally?
John Burrows