Replies

1. 
   frenchy | Jan 21, 2005 07:28pm | #1

   TK

    you violated a basic rule for building in the cold.  never put plumbing in outside walls..

     Further you used fiberglas insulation.  you may not have been aware that fiberglas gets it's R rating at 70 degrees.  as it gets colder it's R value drops..  Thus even though you have several inches of insulation between the outside wall and the pipe it's not enough. 

     For a solution for your problem, you need to address those two issues.. to solve it permenently. You may find that letting the cold water drip may be enough to get you thru the really cold spells.  also try keeping the shower door open so any heat will warm up the walls as much as possible..

1. 
   f1fan100 | Jan 21, 2005 11:24pm | #3

   Frenchy,

    

   Thanks for the reply. I agree it was not optimal. I did build a second wall and insulate both. If I reversed the tub it would have been over the stairs. So either way i was in a problem. I am going to try to get that soffit stuffed with insulation. and in the wall i am gonna step up with the hilti foam product. What do you think of theat every 5 inches drill a whole and put in a good squirt of the expanding gue.

    

   tom

1. 
   RichBeckman | Jan 22, 2005 01:17am | #4

   TK,I think you are correct that the problem is really one of air moving through the space. You should definitely seal up the bottom and top as much as you can.I can't comment on your idea of "every 5 inches drill a hole and put in a good squirt of the expanding gue." I would be sure that the foam was not a high expansion foam. Too much of that stuff in there and you never know what damage might occur.Edit: What Frenchy said about the fiberglass is true.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.

   Edited 1/21/2005 5:28 pm ET by Rich Beckman

2. 
   frenchy | Jan 22, 2005 01:30am | #5

   same for me, no pictures to look at..

    your solution sounds reasonable with one caviot.. if the pex is installed close to the inner wall and won't be forced further away by the foam you probably have a solution..  as for too much expansion I give little credance to that since you are free to expand upwards and downwards relatively freely.. I wouldn't do every hole I'd drill a hole and spray the foam then the next day I'd drill the next hole etc..  actually I'd drill a series of holes maybe a foot apart and then fill them the next day I'd drill the holes inbetween and fill them, that should give   plenty of room to expand.

           

2. 
   goldhiller | Jan 21, 2005 07:43pm | #2

   Didn't open your pics cause they're a little large for my time and patience this AM on dial-up......but...

   I'll ask if these PEX lines run up that "chase" from the basement to the unit in question in such a manner that would allow you to slide foam pipe sleeves on them from below and push 'em all the way up to the problem area?

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
3. 
   rez | Jan 22, 2005 01:34am | #6

   .

    

1. 
   goldhiller | Jan 22, 2005 05:22am | #7

   Thanks, Rez.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

2. 
   IMERC | Jan 22, 2005 06:44am | #8

   thanks rez....

   proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

   WOW!!!   What a Ride!

4. 
   Pierre1 | Jan 22, 2005 07:09am | #9

   I've a hunch this pipe chase is allowing cold attic air to drop down into the basement, chilling the pex run in the process. The fibreglass insulation that's in there probably just slows this cold air flow. Eventually, the whole cavity gets chilled enough.  You need to find a way to prevent attic air to drop down that hole. Maybe you can get at it by opening up the drywall above the shower wand? Could you push or shove something - plywood? plastic? - from the attic area over this opening?  If the house is board and batten, maybe you can get at this from the outside? The ideas suggested here by the others will probably help.

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   Edited 1/21/2005 11:10 pm ET by Pierre1

   
   

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   Edited 1/21/2005 11:12 pm ET by Pierre1

1. 
   DanT | Jan 22, 2005 02:24pm | #10

   I had an old third generation plumber tell me that water won't freeze in a pipe until the tempature is below zero.  Unless...........it has a draft on it. 

   I thought he was nuts but we had a bad winter storm in 1980 and I spent a week under homes thawing them out.  Each frozen area had a crack in the foundation or some type of opening to the outside near by.

   I always went by this theory and in the mid 90's read a test that said the same thing.  It also went on to state that hot water lines will always freeze first in the same enviroment because heating the water breaks down some of the mineral content and lowers the freeze point.

   And this test said another thing that I was really surprised at.  When you see a burst pipe it is not caused by the water freezing and pushing the pipe apart.  It is cause by the water freezing, expanding and putting pressure against the valve and bursting the pipe by hydraulicing (is that a word?) the pipe apart.  The test said the ice will expand the pipe but doesn't grow enought to burst it.  So there is my freezing pipe trivia. 

   I think it is definately caused by air movement and infiltration.  On some difficult situations we have run a 4" heat duct over to the space to provide a little heat to an area that other wise would potentially freeze.  DanT