What is the best way to install faced insulation, side stapled or over the stud?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
The RealTruck AMP Research Bedsteps give you easy access to your truck-bed storage.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
ALLWAYS side staple.
ALWAYS face stapled...
absolutely !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
but never staple at all...... ....really...
never buy faced insulation... it has huge edge leaks.... always use friction fit batts with a seperate vapor barier.
now.. the real skinny...
NEVER use fiberglass.... always use cellulose !
use drywall screws! always!Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Actually Mr.T, there are times that I find it rather repulsive to use the common drywall screw for something beyond it's singularly designated purpose i.e. hanging sheetrock. To use use anything but stainless screws for the proper placement of the fiberglass batts is a poor building habit and has no place on this forum. Please keep that in mind for when piffin returns to his roost lest he finds himself forced to correct you, and remember...stainless is painless!Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
The other...proper application of risk.
Sorry if this was too primative a question
Nothing primitive about it, but it is curious that you got three different answers, (at least).
Whenever I am forced to use it, (which is almost never), I staple on the face of the studs. Something to do with the face is a vapor barrier?, but the drywallers hate that. Not too big a deal, because drywallers hate everything. Face stapling also helps minimize edge leaks a bit, but this type of insulation is on the lowere end of the insulation food chain.
Maybe you could get better answers if you said where you are using it, and why?
On the contrary, this is an illustration of how even the seemingly simplest of questions is complicated.
Advocates of side stapling usually promote that because it simplifies the intallation of the drywall. But in doing so, it may reduce the effectiveness of the insulation by creating channels where convective currents can get going. Fiberglass works best (which is to say, not very well) when it fully fills an airtight chamber. If the wall cavity is indeed airtight, the channels created by side stapling would probably not make a very big difference. But airtight stud cavities rare. And hence fiberglass is pretty ineffective overall.
So, like Mike says, use cellulose.
Steve
Side stapling isn't kosher in my neck o the woods. The inspector will STRONGLY suggest you rip it out as it doesn't meet HIS local fire regs, which happen to dovetail into or buiding code...because the inspector is also our local fire dept hocho. It's not that side stapling is OFFICIALLY against local code...but he frowns upon the practice. He's not a guy you want frowning on your jobsite.
Siide stapling creates mini-chimneys between the drywall and the FG facing. Burns faster. Forget the numbers, but the diifference is substantial.
Side stapling reduces wall R-value. Mini-chimneys promote mini convective loops.
Face stapling irks the drywallers.
So...like mike sed. Use unfaced and run a poly VB, or ditch the FG and pump up the walls with cells.
Not a dumb question, BTW, so hang in there and don't get discouraged...
STOICONE,
I, too, am ignorant on "basic" matters like insulation. Lots of "basic" building practices are done out of habit and ignorance. It's fun to expand the horizon with other options.
Which brings me to my question:
What is the cost differential between cellulose and friction fit fiberglass, including the mesh. Is blown cellulose something that is best to sub out or are cell blowing tools rentable?
PS. It's -5 degrees F here in southern Maine this morning. Need lots of R value!!!!!!!!!!
Edited 2/16/2003 7:22:12 AM ET by FC
Rent It.
Most place that you buy 5 to 10 bags of the stuff from let you use the blower free of charge. You just need a deposit.
Both Certainteed and Knauf have tested face stapled insulation for fire spread verses inset stapled. Sorry guys, the inset does NOT provide a chimney NOR is the flame spread greater. The building code only specifies that the insulation maintain significant contact. If the inset stapled insulation is done correctly, it's a neat, clean job that's much easier for the sheet rockers. By the way, Hilton Head SC has a very active and progressive code enforcement section and local code REQUIRES inset stapeling.
Ken Rubin, Savannah, GA
"The facings on Kraft-and-foil-faced insulation will burn and must be installed in substantial contact with an approved ceiling, wall or construction material to help prevent the spread of fire in the wall, ceiling or floor cavities. Unfaced fiber glass is non-combustible."
"While building codes may consider facing stapled to either the face or the side of framing members to fall under the definition of 'substantial contact', in controlled burn testing, flame spread in wall systems with side stapling was accelerated, and suffered structural failure faster, than wall systems where the insulation facing was stapled to the face of the framing members."
From Owens Corning, 2001
I fully agree with you that when "inset stapled insulation is done correctly, it's a neat, clean job that's much easier for the sheet rockers."
Edit to split quote iinto two parts.
Edited 2/18/2003 1:25:12 PM ET by Mongo
Still confused - assuming the rockers are going to screw or nail the rock down, would face stapling be worse for them? Why?
Pete
They can't see the studs.
Pete,
They tell me they hate it because "it's lumpy." They simply don't like it. May be an lame excuse, who knows? I'm sure you can install it pefectly flat. No sarcasm there, just the truth. I'm simply passing along what rockers have told me.
Their preference for already installed insulation? Unfaced FG batts with a poly VB.
They actually charge a bit more for rocking over face stapled insulation.
Again, around here nobody except DIYers uses much faced insulation. It's possible that their (the rockers) resistance to rocking over face stapled is simply ecause it's something "different."
And it may be an uncommon method because of the inspector's distaste for that method of installation.
Or, maybe because it's lumpy.<g>
Mongo
I can see why face stapling would irk the drywallers if they wanted to glue the sheetrock down, but I woulda thought poly would irk them too. Is there somethig else about face stapling that would irk them?
And two newbie questions on Cellulose. How do you create a cavity that you can blow cellulose into in something like a kneewall? How do you blow it into a cathedral ceiling space?
Pete
you blow it into kneewalls by creating insulating areas... here's a pic of one created by using 2x8 rafters, a plywood kneewall and insulmesh on the rafter face..
as to cathedral ceilings.. you can create boxes out of the joist spaces by using foam board, insul. mesh, furring , drywall, or blueboard.. you can drill 1" holes, 2" holes, 3" or 4" holes, you can leave out strips... you can insulate it from the roof by leaving rows of plywood loose....
your imagination is the only limiting factor...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
To further confuse things, blown in fiberglass (BIBS) gets my vote here in the mild climate of the Pacific Northwest. You guys in New England and the upper midwest have some serious weather to deal with. BIBS is about 20% more expensive than batts to sub out and it is about 700 times better. It's well worth looking into for anyone building in a moderate climate.
jim.... why would anyone use blown in fiberglass if they could use cellulose ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've never seen or heard of anyone out here using cellulose, Mike. I don't really know why, but it's true.
oh?... isn't that strange ... must be a conspiracy of Owens-Corning & Johns-ManvilleMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm thinking for the same reason someone would use TP instead of leaves.
Hey go with the technology.
Clay
clay.. i don't understand your comment... do you prefer blown-in fiberglass or cellulose..?.. i can't tell for sure Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well I thought I get beat up for the comment but hey It's monday. I favor fiber glass losefill if your blowing it.
I was thinking ever since Warren Buffet bought into the newspaper industry that the real conspiracy was promoting using those newspapers to be stored in isulating cavities throughout the world.
Clay
definitely... warren buffet WAS on the grassy knole..( sic?)
but you are soooooooo out of it with blown-in FG... hah, hah, hahMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I read it as fiber was toilet paper compared to cell, which was leaves.
I have been sold fiber, and have seen it packed and rolled to junk. I'm re-doing an attic right now where the fiber would be tossed if it wasn't so much bother. The blown fiber was a waste of money.
how high's the water , mama ?
i'm thinkin we got at least 12" on top of the 8" base.. and there's no end in site...
hey, qtrmeg... got anybody up there would service an old Servel gas refrigerator ?..
last time we trucked it to Maine.. but that guy was older than dirt then and that was 15 years ago
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yah, I have a guy right down the street, lol.
Google it and check out camper people.
Huh? I am thinking of two around here that should be able, but fixing propane is a rip and replace. No? Where ya gonna get the parts?
And I was going to ask you a tough question...
my thinking is there are no parts...( indestructible ) just maintenance.. of which i don't have a clue..
something about turning them upside down to "burp" them.. and cleaning the gas flue.... arrrghhh..
ifn i wanted to be a mechanic, i'd a gone to trade school instead of just faking it in construction lo these many yearsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You wanna propane mushroom that still stinks after I burped the crap out of it?
Frigging things...
How may breaktimers does it take to burp a fridge?
None, we all just sit around and bitch about it.
(I'd still check out camper people, there is one on 114) in Weare that is worth a shot, if you think that is a plan, I dunno).>>>
http://www.coldspringsrv.com/index1.htm
"I have been sold fiber, and have seen it packed and rolled to junk."
Yeah, I agree that it "packs" when blown loose into a ceiling. I think that's because of the binders they add to keep it from blowing around. Yeah, there must be something better than that...doesn't gravity cause cellulose to settle in a similar application?
I was mainly thinking about blowing it into walls, especially on remodels where you get into so many irregular spaced framing members. I love it for that. The first time I walked into a building with blown in fiberglass walls I couldn't believe it. Talk about completey filling the cavity - unreal. And I'm pretty sure you can get higher "R" values in the same thickness wall with blown fiberglass than cellulose.
I'd like to get a good look at a blown in cellulose job though. Not saying I don't like it, just that I've never seen it.
Birds are chirping, got to get after it.
I thought cell walls were higher?
Either way, ask the guy in the pic>>>
Anybody know for sure? Whether you get more "R" values from the same application of cells or fiberglass?
My understanding of the theory behind the advantage of cellulose deals with the molecular structure, that cellulose molecules are denser, so water vapor isn't as likely to pass through, or something like that.
Of course, fiberglass proponents then respond that stopping airborne moisture from entering the framing cavity from the warm side of the wall is the purpose of the vapor barrier...
Then cellulose fans reply vapor barriers are ineffective and we all know how poorly fiberglass batts, even when carefully installed, seal the cavity. I agree about the challenges fitting batts, that's why I was interested in looking into blown in fiberglass in the first place. I'm impressed.
Are we talking walls or ceilings? Where are you? What house? This isn't an easy item to soundbite, every job is different.
Blown is fine in a perfect word, but you have to rely on the installers. Ask dusty boy why he is holding the wand...
"Are we talking walls or ceilings?" Either, one.
Mike - why are you holding that wand? Is that a blower, or vacumn? You didn't appropriate Helen's Rainbow again, did you?
it's magic, jim......
just like cellulose insulation.. ya gotta believeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You haven't been performing any medical tasks on the subs with that thing, have you?
Face stapling irks the drywallers because you can never get the paper facing to always lay perfectly flat, and the staples to always fully seat -- so it makes for buckles and lumps, however small, that have to be dealt with.
I just did a garage, side stapled, read here in breaktime (I think) or someplace that staples shouldn't be more than about 1/4" from the edge of the stud when side stapling.
For residential, it's always unfaced batts, with continuous poly.
OK Folks, the horse is dead, long live the horse....
This is the NAHBRC (National Association of Home Builders Research Center) info site re insulation...... Maybe some of you will gain some new info, or info will change your direction: http://www.toolbase.org/search/searchT2.asp?TrackID=&Action=Find&selcategory=0&qu=insulation&x=47&y=8
I have no vested interest, other than inspecting installed insulation. When I first started doing this, I also questioned inset stapeling but after some research, found it to be just as good, and sometimes better than face stapeling, if installed correctly.
Ken in Savannah
This is somewhat hijacking the thread, but how do you deal with the electrical wiring with blown in insulation? Wiring needs a little breathing room so it doesn't get overheated, is it typical to use a higher temperature rated cable, or do you push it to the back of the wall so it isn't really surrounded by insulation? I might be overthinking this issue, but if I'm not, it might be a fire issue.
Tom
No offense, but I think you're seeing a problem where none exists.
I've never heard of wiring needing breathing room.
My attic is full of wires buried in insullation.
When I use fiberglass I cut it so the insulation surrounds the wire.
Unless a wire is overloaded, which means it's improperly done, no breathing room is needed. With normal loads no signifigant amount of heat is generated by the wire.
An inspector told me about a very light blown-in insulation for the attic that can be piled up to a couple of feet high without much weight. He said it was really good for older houses especially with 2x4 framing. Anyone here use it or know about it?
We blow it in around the wires, big country. I've never heard that to be an issue, even on the old knob and tube. Do tell if you think different.
Jim,
Been away for a couple days while I was moving, back now...
The only reason I asked about the wiring and insulation is that I read Rex Cauldwell's book Wiring a House, and he suggests that running several cables together will produce enough heat to warm up the one in the center. The NEC rates all cables exposed to moving air at almost one and a half times the ratings as the same gauge run inside. That must be allowing for the insulation thing.
I think I get it now.
Tom
Thank you for your friendly guidance.
I am sorry that I suggested an inferior practice and will strive to refrain from such action in the future.
Just curious, is rez a womans nickname?
TTFN
Mr TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Well, I've got a female cousin that answers to that name.
And she's married so don't even go there.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
The other...proper application of risk.
You married your cousin?
YEEEEEEEHAAAAAWWWW!
~(:oD>Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Rule # 1 never use fiberglas,
rule #2 never use celliuos
rule #3 always foam..
IMHO
damn, frenchy.. didn't you see that fork in the road ?
we're off that and movin on...the topic du jour is now olde Servel gas refrigerators
i think it's all down hill from here.. Helen just got into the sherry Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore