We’ve had a few scenarios come up lately that kind of bugged me, so I thought I would bring this up for discussion and get some feedback.
We often get into problems regarding getting into customer’s jobsites. Some very real examples of what’s happened are:
Lumberyard orders trusses for a customer out in the sticks. The only way into the jobsite requires crossing a bridge with a 5 ton weight limit. Customer claims we are responsible for delivery to the jobsite even if we have to hand carry them.
We show up on a jobsite with trusses. The customer has a narrow, winding lane about 12′ wide cut through a forest. The load of trusses are about 13′ wide. Customer insists that we get them in there, but don’t damage trees. Threatens to sue us if we do.
We show up with a load of trusses on a job with standing water and mud around the building. Customer says he wants us to call a tow truck to tow our truck in to unload, then have the tow truck hang around to pull the truck back out. All of this at our expense, of course.
Customer orders 38′ trusses through a lumberyard for an addition to the back of their house. We show up, an the customer insists we take the trusses around behind the house in an alley. But the alley is too narrow to allow access to a semi. Customer insists we hand carry the trusses to the back of the house, or re-load them on a pickup truck ladder rack and drive them back into the alley. She claims we should have informed her that the 38′ trusses were to be delivered on a semi when she ordered them.
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Every truss plant that I’ve workjed at has claimed that the customer or GC is responsinbly for providing access to the jobsite. But we seem to get into a ton of battles about it. So I was curious what you guys think about it, since many of you are on the other side of the proverbial fence.
If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
Replies
As someone who would be hiring a GC to do such work, I would insist on the GC seeing the site prior to starting anything.
If the customer doesn't allow access for evaluation or orders stock prior to the GC being hired than they should be responsible for errors and delivery or delays in delivery. As would the GC if they did the ordering.
What If you get scared half to death twice in one day?
Most of these situations are with GCs, or homeowners acting as their own GC. They know about the site conditions but don't bother to tell us ahead of time.
Occasionally it's just a homeowner who's nuts, like the lady who wanted us to put the 38' trusses on ladder racks on a pickup.
I didn't work my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables.
Boss,
I'd agree that those people are nuts. But, I have some questions. I wonder how you/your company handles new orders coming in. Do they come from lumberyards, or direct? Do you have any way to tell that a person has ordered trusses (esp. through you) before? Is there anything that raises a warning flag to tell you a customer may simply be clueless about what is involved? Not just that you need to educate them about trusses/design, but also the logistics issues?
I would say that you're responsible to deliver them as close as reasonably possible. What is reasonable may be debatable. But if the scenarios above are not exaggerated, then IMHO those particular conditions were unreasonable. If they choose to live in an area that a semi can't get to, it's their problem.
One would hope that if someone is "knowledgeable" enough to know they need a truss, and place an order, they'd also know enough that they need to allow access for it. But, my experience tells me that itself is an unreasonable expectation. Don't mistake me, I believe it is their issue, regardless of whether they know it IS an issue.
I used to sell plumbing/kitchen/bath supplies, and we'd have people try to order a one piece fiberglass tub/shower unit. We learned to ask certain questions, such as is this for new construction, or remodel? Anytime they answered remodel, we'd steer them away from the one piece units, because we knew they'd (typically) have problems getting them through doors, up stairs, around any turns, etc. We learned to ask the right questions, because we were tired of people complaining, "You should have warned us it was 5'+ by 6'+ by 3', and now we can't fit it around/through/in..."
Summary - It's their problem to make sure the site is accessible, and to make sure they know just what type of accessibility is needed. But, for improved customer service, saying something might help to prevent problems. If you don't already have it, maybe a boilerplate phrase for all orders almost as simple as "Site must be accessible to an X' wide by Y' high truck, with turnaround radius of Z, or we cannot deliver to site." Then, if you can identify the "problem" customers, spend an extra few minutes of handholding to make sure they know what's involved. And get everyone's acknowledgement in writing.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
The vast majority of our orders come in through lumberyards. (Probably 97%) Many of the contractors they deal with are repeat customers that we've dealt with over several years.
I think the vast majority of them know they need to provide access to the site. Some of them might just be trying to get a freebie out of us, or trying to avoid the expense of dealing with bringing gravel in, etc.
Some of the orders we get without having ever spoken to the homeowner, contractor, or anybody except the lumberyard people. So "hand holding" as you put it would be difficult.
The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
around here we drop at curb line and leave, they can come get them. If they decide not to pay because we drop at line, we slap a lien on house till payment. If they do not pay because they was stolen because they was to lazy to fetch, we slap a lien. Its written on our order form "We drop at curb line".
With an attitude like that, do you get much repeat business ???
Threatening customers with leins isn't a good way to motivate them to do business with you.
On some of the jobs I'm talking about, we couldn't even get NEAR the curb. And there aren't any curbs out in the sticks.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
What the home owner needs to do is get a few bags of QuikCrete and some forms and make a "curb" right in front of their house. "Deliver to curb" - yeah right!
But seriously, how about using a helicopter [or blimp] for delivery. In some situations, it might be worth looking into. Think of it as truck and crane in one unit.
Just trying to solve problems. - Peter
usuallyit's the other way around, like, the driver want's to dump em and go, can't blame 'em, they only come from bum#### , sat in traffic 4 hours, has to fight rush hour to get home, lot a times, we get tji's and roof trusses together, if we can back him up to dirt, soft ground, dump away. Some of these city jobs is nothing but pavement, kinda have to unload 'em by hand, got a bobcat w/ fork attachment, but that don't work, now, if the driver can get a running start, and work the pto at the same time, you can dump 'em with out damage, did that with a hack of t&g siding once. One of these days I'm gonna convince the boss to order 'em with an extra foot so we can cut off the split ends.no turn left unstoned
Access is obviously the gc's or the homeowner acting as gc's problem. Who else is even aware of the problem? We always order trusses through a lumberyard and that is who we pay. You should make it their problem. The lumberyard can easily assess both the customer and the site (having made other deliveries there), and they will understand your situation even if only after the fact. They will know what your policy is and will have an incentive to make your job as easy as possible. We expect drivers to work hard to get the trusses close to the house but we provide any hand carrying that needs to be done.
to reply about repeat business, everything here is sand, very little clay. So if we do pull in yards we get stuck everytime. that clause is on everybody ticket here. Concrete, lumber, roofing, insulation, competitors and us. They all drop at line. Its just common sense here. Usually they is a lull or 4wd backhoe that will pickup and cart. it is pretty standard equipment to have a lull on site.. most deliervy trucks are roll backs so they lay down gently. They just do things different in other parts of country
Our local truss plant offers the services of a truss pump. Being located near a concrete batch plant, they were inspired by the concrete pumpers.
Their largest truss pump can deliver up to a quarter mile horizontally and 400 feet vertically.
Their pumping prices are based on a combination of pitch and span. They charge a premium for scissor trusses due to their tendency to cause plugs.
That has got to be one of the dumbest, most depraved, silliest, most pointless posts I've ever seen here
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I like it......
Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark.
Boss, we would never order trusses without a way to get them and a crane in, and I can understand how some of your customers may not think of this angle...but what I can't understand is why someone in your business, who has had the delivery problems you speak of, and repeatedly it seems, wouldn't be just a tad more specific about delivery when an order is taken...brownbagg's answer was on target for his company and known conditions... how much repeat biz do you get from homeowners?...maybe the word is out that your company is easy? By the way, I think your truss advice is right on...is this question a joke?
Boss, It's hard to concieve of so much stupidity but when I remember a few of my past (past tense, notice) customers, I understand that they do exist.
This may sound a little like trying to legislate against stupidity, but it seems to be the only way out;
You need a work order system. Design a form for each order with design requirements such as span, wall to wall, pitch, overhang, style (scisors), special requirements etc.
Add a paragraph briefly explaining the delivery method and the requirement that the customer is responsible for providing job access adequate to facilitate safe delivery. Add that ANY costs incurred for delivering beyond the normal drive in and unload will be added to the bill.
Specify that the customer must check off each section of the form and sign the agreement to abide at the bottom BEFORE the trusses will be placed into production.
It's a pain at frist, but they'll get the hang of it.
If you've got lumberyards that are better at being responsible for getting it right, you can train and extend to them the ability to accept those forms on your behalf. Discount to them and add price to others.
I've had to buy plenty of specialty products where a similar system is used. I got put off at first by the paperwork, but I can see how it keeps my costs lower as a pro and really helps me avoid mistakes by giving me a checklist, like a pilot before takeoff. Every time you lose money on a bad order or delivery, those costs must eventually be passed onto me or another builder who normally gets it right.
I live on an island so we use darn few trusses. I'm not sure what the height limit is on the ferry but it makes truss delivery hard. You have to get them on a lowboy which then high-centers in a very low tide because of ramp angles. So you then have to time the arrival and unload quickly to make the return trip before tide turns...
or walk on water.
PS- I loved the truss pump!
But scissors trusses shouldn't plug it up if you just feed them the right direction in the first place!Excellence is its own reward!
Actually I see the problem. Meaning I understand why its still a problem. I'm not suggesting anything , but I'm know you don't want the trusses back at the yard . You work for a third party that can pick up the phone and call someone else. You can only deal with the yard and nothing will be done to increase pricing unless the customer oks it first , or the customer doesn't have to pay. Yard wont pay , that's for sure. I think a form is too vague . Seems to me that you need a rep previsisting every site for any problem. The guy who designs them would be great. But that cost is not built in other plants. You would be too high. Can you do it as a service offered ?
Tim Mooney
To answer several questions at once:
bucksnort billy -
No, this question isn't a joke. Every one of those stories I told is is 100% true, as best as my memory serves. Being "a tad more specific about delivery when an order is taken" sounds good. But it would be difficult on some of them. We get a lot of orders that are just faxed or called in from lumberyards. We rarely know anything about the jobsites when they're ordered. And we can't make the lumberyards tell their customers.
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piffin -
An "order form" would help in some situations, but not others. Actually, we do that to some extent. When an order is placed (Even if it's been quoted) we fax back a "price approval" form along with a copy of the order. The lumberyard has to approve it and send it back to us before we build anything.
Trouble is, they don't always know what they're signing. Sometimes a contractor or homeowner has called the order in and the lumberyard has no idea if it's right. Or they claim we didn't explain things clearly, or that we're the experts and should know what the homeowner actually needs. And on complicated houses there's no way the customer is going to understand the order forms.
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Tim Mooney -
You're right in saying that having a rep visit every site would be expensive. We'd probably have to hire 2 or 3 more people to do that. Our orders spread out over half of Illinois and 1/4 of Missouri. And I doubt the customers would go for any added expense. And the lumberyards definitely don't want any added expense or effort on their part. Some of them only mark the orders up 5 to 10%, so they don't make a lot of money on them.
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I appreciate everyon'e input. Never know what kind of response you'll get from a question here..............
All of us could take a lesson from the weather. It pays no attention to criticism.
hey boss- When trusses are returned for whatever reason what happens to them?Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Rez -
I get asked that about once a week. Everybody's looking for some cheap trusses to build a shed or whatever. Like maybe a nice set of 30' commons at 4/12.
The problem is that most of the trusses that are returned are low quantity wierd stuff. Like maybe four piggybacked coffered 10/12 trusses that are cantilevered 6' one end. Most of them are cut up and the lumber re-used.
Every once in a while a good deal comes along. We once had a builder declare bankruptcy just before we delivered simple a set of 36' 5/12 common trusses. Ended up selling them to the Historical Society for a picnic pavilon. But stuff like that only happens about once every 2 or 3 years.
How is it one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire?
That's why I suggested having your rep 'train' the order takers to ask the right questions. You're already using the system I'm talking about. You just need to refine and enforce it a little more
I know it's hard to deal with something like this though. Whe you enforce on the bad ones and good both, you run the risk of getting the good customers pissed. They're not all as understanding as I am. ;)
But any customer who can't understand an order form shouldn't be building a complicated house. How in H*** can he read the plans in the first place???????Excellence is its own reward!
That last tag is gonna be good for DW's best friend. She's a vegitarian.
Since I'm a homeowner, I thought I would chime in. Of course you are responsible for getting the trusses to the exact spot I want them and no, I won't lift a finger to help because I might break a nail. And could you keep the noise down out there while your schlepping my trusses through that mudhole back there. I'm watching TV and I can't hear my show.
Don't shoot, I'm just kidding.
Those people are nuts. I can't stand people who think that because they are the homeowner/customer that they are somehow elevated to be some sort of king. That is nuts. I hate to say it, but I really do think some people look down their noses at the guys delivering their lumber or materials or whatever. That attitude disgusts me.
We are building a log home and there was never any question about who was responsible for getting the logs up to the jobsite....US! It was unnerving watching 2 semi-trucks with 48 ft trailers back up our drive and with chainsaw in hand, we were ready to cut any trees that were in the way. We only had to cut some branches, but we were ready. We purposely made a nice, flat driveway with a large turnaround for fire equipment. When that forest fire comes, I want them there to help. Has been great for material delivery as every truck can drive right up and drop off the materials right at the house.
Boss,
Those people are nuts. But maybe the pump was already primed by another vendor who was more 'accomodating'? By the time they get to trusses, they've presumably already had many other deliveries, so they (stupidly) think trusses are no different.
As a loosely related example: I moved across the country from one apartment to another. The moving company driver would not take his truck (of which my stuff was a tiny fraction) up to my apartment because of a tight curve. So I had to pay an additional $700 that I didn't have for them to offload my stuff into a panel truck and take it up the road. 3 days later, another giant moving truck is parked in front of my apartment when my neighbor moves in - now I want my $700 back. If that driver could do it, why couldn't mine? My pump is primed - I know it can be done so I am going to be unreasonable about it (the other driver spent 45 minutes getting his truck back out that one turn, so my driver was probably the wiser one).
In your case the customer is thinking that other vendors managed and why can't you. I'd say, don't fight about it, just stick to the contract. If you don't have safe access to the site, turn around and go back to the shop and let them figure it out.
Sounds like some nutty expectations however it is an interesting topic for discussion. I think the idea of including a clause for accessibilty of a certain minimum for the truck required is reasonable. By having it in black and white, you at least throw it out their to spark a discussion....and really that is the only way to address it without seeing the site for yourself.
A friend of ours just had trusses delivered and the company they went through provided delivery to the destination (the word destination was qualified on the contract with some language to address saftey of their drivers and equipment). They charged an additional fee to unload under certain conditions.....ideally they would back up and the GC would have a crew to unload via fork etc.
Above my desk (in cubicle world mind you) I have a sign that says:
"Lack of planning on your part does not constitute and emergency on mine."
Perhaps that is the way to go :-D
SJ
When you give the price you should have an exclusion in your quote for unreasonable job site access. That way it will make the client think about it a little more and they will realize that it will cost extra if you are to provide the extra service to deliver to these hard to reach job sites.
Ace