I caught hell from the bosses last week for doing something that seemed normal to me. I’m hoping those with some years of experience running their own business could chime in, and let me know if I’ve breached etiquette…
I’ve been working as a carpenter with a landscape design/build outfit. On a recent project, which was an interior/exterior remodel, I was responsible for the manufacture and assembly of a modest trellis, portico, gate and fence structure. The architect who designed the whole project was on site frequently, and we were hammering out details as the project moved along. I caught wind of the fact that there was going to be a large deck project in the backyard, to be done as soon as the landscape and interior remodel work was complete.
I felt free to begin communication with the architect about the possibility of doing the deck on my own, primarily because the crew I was with are landscapers In fairness, the company I was with had a number of carpenters on board, were capable of doing the project, and have done some decks in the past. I did, however, hear from the architect that the company I was working for was not going to be invited to do the job, because of their expensive history. Perhaps my bosses weren’t aware of that fact, but their reaction was that I stabbed them in the back, by pursuing work they were capable of doing.
Any thoughts?
Thanks all
Replies
I stabbed them in the back, by pursuing work they were capable of doing.
Can you blame them?
Are you fully licensed, and insured? Workers Comp?
PS. Did you get the job?
--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Edited 1/24/2006 2:51 pm ET by dustinf
Seems to me your bosses are more right than wrong.
I think it's unethical to solicit side work while you're working for someone on THEIR TIME.
Had you talked to your bosses about it first and they weren't interested in the job, that would have been a whole different ball game.
Bad etiquette, my friend.
On your boss's time, assume it's the boss's clients.Period. On your time, they could be your clients.
Agree. Perception = reality. Your bust. You get 20 demerits and no weekend pass.
"A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor
I gotta agree with everyone else here. They're your bosses customer and you were poaching, whether that was your intent or not, that's how it will look. Before I was self-employed I had a rule, and that was never to work for one of my employers customers, no matter what!
Your mistake.
BILL
If you work for me and are on my time then don't solicit work for yourself. And don't solicit my customers. Or I will fire you. They are my customers. Go get your own on your own time using the same methods I did. Advertisment and word of mouth based on my reputation. Not by taking a customer from my previous employer. DanT
This often happens. You would have served everyone better by telling your employer what had tanspired between you and HIS customer. If I were him, I would rather you get the job than a regular competitor, if there was no chance of me getting it.
Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Nobody to blame but yerseff.
You're lucky to still have a job.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
thats the rule. no side work for a current customer.Any lead/foreman gets first dibs after. My boss is very leinient though. but only for small stuff and absolutly nothing stuctural.
I pretty much agree with everyone, although it sounds like you were selling the architect, not the customer directly.
If you were on company time, it was wrong. If you were calling on the architect outside of work hours and specifically bidding for the anticipated deck, it wouldn't have been quite so bad ethically (although the info you got about the upcoming project "belonged" to your employer, not to you) and it was still a bad move strategically viz a viz your employer.
The most you should have done (maybe) is mention briefly in passing to the architect: "I do decks on the side, I hope you'll keep me in mind on future projects." If the archi responded: "well, we'll be doing a deck here in awhile," your only answer would be "Oh, it wouldn't be right for me to solicit work on anything connected with this job, but may I drop off some literature sometime at your office for future reference?"
Sweet, a christian website that is not right-wing fundamentalist based. How righteous.
I think you messed up dude. I would give you a 'talking to' for the first offense and give you your walking papers if it happened again. If you work for me, all you have to do is come and ask me. Honesty goes a long way. Not telling me is the same as lieing to me in my book.
Quick story to help you understand why. Two summers ago I framed a house for a GC. The GC (a snake as it turned out) got to talking to one of my guys when I wasn't around on a Saturday. I don't know who solicited who, but one thing led to another and my guy landed the job building a deck on the back of the frame. I never knew about it.
About 3 or 4 months later I get a call from the GC looking for my guy's number. I told him that he didn't work for me anymore and was curious why he wanted his number. Turns out the footings were only down about 2' and in freeze/thaw cycle one had lifted and then basically fell on it's side. The deck was only about 18" from grade so it wasn't an easy fix. Anyway, GC told me that since the guy worked for me at the time he expected me to fix it. No way in he11 I said. Told him I knew nothing about it until this phone call.
We went around the horn a few time about it, and I began to realize that my name is on this project. And if this guy thinks it's my fault.... then it might as well be. Not from a legal standpoint, but from a stand point of protecting my reputation. It's a small world and builders and subs all run in the same circles sooner or later. Word gets around. I ended up fixing it just to shut the guy's mouth.
I'll let my guys do sidework, don't get me wrong. Occasionally I even lend them the tools they need. But I gotta know about it. As an employee, you don't always see the whole picture. Maybe the guy who you're about to work for still owes me a check that I'm never gonna see and that's why he's not asking me to do the work. You just never know what the deal is. Asking me about the work also gives me the chance to talk to the other party and make sure it's crystal clear that I have nothing to do with the transaction.
Live and learn brother. If nothing else, I admire your ambition.
I wonder if this is another one of those threads where the op can't find his way back to read the responses?
Maybe he got whacked!!
Allright Nathan, you were a scumbag to do this.
My story now.
Couple of months ago I'm finishing up a kitchen for the company I am working for after 20 years or so on my own. Real nice clients too.
Clint solicits me to install new windows through out the house. Nice job. I kinda go along just getting info out of him and then give him a nice heart to heart about how unethical it would be for me to do that.
I went on to sell the job, but to the company I am working for. So now I am there putting thier windows in. They wanted me to do the work more than anything else and that's what they got. I'm just getting paid from my boss and not directly from them.
I created a win, win, win situation. Yeah, three parties!
You are a bad man.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I agree completely.
Some of us wouldn't abide any sidework but I like to see our employees bettering themselves and learning about the business side by taking on their own jobs. A little heads up goes a long way toward making this possible.
Now on the other hand, if you did get the job, which led to many more, you started your own business, made a fortune and retired early, then you did do the right thing. ;~)
I think he mest up (made the same mistake very early in my career)
What's more important making a fortune or earning respect?
Diesel has it nailed down to a T.
BTW I would have fired you.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
After reading sixteen of these in a row, I went out back, sat down and did a little head scratchin'. I put myself in my bosses shoes, imagining myself running employees (again) on a custom exterior finishing job. That is the bread and butter of what I do. I happen to have an employee who has good skills in landscape installs. I too, have done one or two of them myself, along the way, and I currently employ three other landscapers, who also happen to be carpenters. The situation on the thread is the same as the one I'm describing now. Architect is project manager, client is paying the bills directly to the subs. My carpenter, through the architect, bids and lands the small landscape addition.I do agree with the comments above that if my person had come to me asking if I was going to bid the landscape install, there would have been much less opportunity for offense. (However, does this then mean that, since I have multiple employees with multiple talents, perhaps then everything not contracted out for the job is mine for first refusal, at least concerning my employees amibitions? Exterior and interior painting, interior trim, cabinet installs, driveway re-surfacing?)What I'm driving at here, is that I'm a carpentry sub on the job. I am a successful one, and have attracted a number of talented people to my company who can do many things, but my role on the project is that of carpentry sub. No one asked me to be the landscaper on this one. I didn't ask to be the landscaper on this one. Why exactly then, do my employees forego their right to consider and bid work that falls outside my specialty and role on the project? (Sort of unconvinced on this one. I know that a satisfied employee would probably be thinking of the company first, and I would expect a team-player to let me in on the little things that can transpire on a job. If one of my employees doesn't do this, perhaps that's telling me something about his satisfaction level with working for me?) I did have the little sit down with the architect and the client on that Monday am, right after a little chat with the boss, in which I backed out of the project as apologetically as I could. I had left a message with my boss the day before, asking for his input on the matter. I suppose my loyalty to the paycheck writers and the rest of the crew did worked my conscience a bit , enough to want to let him know about it, before the meeting transpired. His reaction was... well, read all the responses above. Guys, I'm still not convinced I was underhanded. Going back into the fantasy scenario above, if I had wanted to do the landscape portion, wouldn't I have talked about it before, having had the plans in hand for three months? If I had four landscape friendly carpenters on my crew, and I wanted to put them to work as landscapers, wouldn't a landscape addition sitting there on the plan view of the house have given me enough reason to pursue it with the architect/owner?Perhaps I was a bad guy. Don't know for sure yet. Most of the views above are well spoken, the scenarios described make sense and all the thoughts you farts have shared are going to be thought about for a while more.Still an arrogant bastard, but willing to change,NathanEdited 1/25/2006 12:24 am ET by NathanW
Edited 1/25/2006 12:32 am ET by NathanW
I'll have to consider all these things most seriously, for sure. I'm seem to have missed something along the way, or perhaps forgotten something I used to know.Nathan
Nathan, after reading your second response, it's making more sense to me. Yes, you are an arrogant bastard and you obviously feel 'entitlement' to this work that you have no business soliciting.
So why bother asking? Seems you've already got your mind made up and are just looking for someone to co-sign your BS. You just got like 20 guys in a row telling you (rather nicely in fact) that you pulled a dirt bag move.... and you're still not sure?
The good thing about being human is that you can justify just about any behavior you want in your own head. So if you look hard enough, you can find all the reasons in the world why didn't do anything wrong. The other nice thing about being human is that you can bounce your ideas off your fellow humans and use them as a barometer or a BS meter. You just set off the BS alarm and then rolled over and hit snooze.View Image
You just set off the BS alarm and then rolled over and hit snooze
Can I use that one?
Nathan,
It's the custom. Custom can't be rationalized away.
Years ago a man who did not rise when a lady entered the room, he was a cad.
Nowadays, when an employee talks about a job with a current client, he too is a cad.
Deal with it.
SamT
Arrogant bastards usually don't last more than a week or two around me. There is only room for one arogant bastard on my jobs.That said, I don't really know what the situation is on this one. I'm sure there is things you are not saying here. Yoiur first post gives the impression that you are an employee. your second makes it more clear that you are a subcontractor. I had to read both a couple times to be sure it was the same person and the same situation becaue of confusing information presented...Now, I have been on all three sides of this situation, as employee, as sub, and as GC. In over 35 years in the trades, I have seen every form of this go down. In every case, when things are kept open and honest and aboveboard beforehand, things worked oout pretty well for everyone involved. When somebody hid things about the situation and/or relationships at some point, the situation inevitably went south.The reason is that our business relationships in this business are based on trust as much as on price or on quality. When the trust dies, so the the relationship sooner or later. OPur businesses are built on reputations. A part of the reputation is the trust we EARN in our time in business. it looks like as though you poured poison on the roots of that tree. Maybe not, but you sure didn't fertilize it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just to clear some things up, I'll add a thing or two. The fact that my conscience required me to speak up before signing onto the project does speak loudly. Whether or not that voice spoke because of integrity, fear, loyalty or whatever is something I'll have to spend some time considering. It did cause me to put the brakes on the whole thing, and yes the situation got out of hand in a hurry. Live and learn.I can fully understand the part of working for a company that has worked hard to establish a clientel and reputation. I agree that it was forward of me to not consider how the project was before me in the first place, and I do wish that I had put more thought into the what the circumstances should have been for me to begin my own business. I hope my bosses will consider the fact that I didn't take the project, and informed them of what was going on before anything transpired. I probably have caused some damage between them and their client. I tried to take all the blame before the client and the architect, but I'm sure there are ramifications that can't be ignored. That is the thing that I need to apologize for. Not the fact that I wanted different and more profitable work, but that their relationship with their client wasn't fully considered. I'm sure though, that things aren't irreperably harmed. They are too well known around here for that to happen. I'm a newcomer, so all guilt and blame can go to me. Yup, I'm an arrogant bastard. Pretty damn good at what I do, try to be honest to a tee, don't bill for what I don't do, show up sober every day, lead the crew with a positive attitude, teach as much as possible where I have knowledge and I also bust my #### for my clients, whether personal or through another. What I want in return is a boss who does what he says he's going to do. If I have to bend my budget to accomodate a cell phone and he says he's going to bump my wage to compensate not only the cost of it, but also the increased productivity, I don't appreciate it when he forgets and then blows me off when I mention it. I'm a single father with two kids. Hell, I made every penny of my payroll for ten, when I was going down in the flames of bankruptcy. Paid almost all of my suppliers, too. State got the bond, because there weren't any suppliers looking for it. My family went a little hungry, but I made damn sure my employees got every penny that they billed for. There have been some strong arguments here about why not to do what I did. Especially Piffin's, concerning the fertilizer. For sure, I'll tread much more lightly around the client/sub issue from now on, regardless of how much I think the sub deserves respect. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and I suppose that means even when you don't feel like they deserve your 100%.Thanks all.Nathan
Nathan,I'm detecting some strong underlying themes that can't/won't be communicated on this forum.I completely understand that you primarily need to look out for the needs of yourself and those who directly depend on you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.The issue is when that responsibility collides with your responsibility as an employee. Ethically, you must somehow satisfy both requirements.You also have mentioned or alluded to several points of contention with your boss. Your gripes should have no effect on your ethical performance, although that can be a difficult tightrope to walk.The bottom line is you must give your employer his due up until the point where you break off to work for others or go on your own.Good luck.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
there aren't any ethics in capitalism...the nathan guy is a genius for looking for work on that companies time...i thought that the 'American Way" was about free-agency and all that. If a sub-contractor (no benefits employee) can not communicate with a prospective client then wouldn't that be collusion and isn't that bad. My boss wouldn't give a shid if i built a deck for a client of his...he's got bigger and better and cleaner and easier things to do. Besides if it was stated that there wasn't much money left in the budget for a deck then why would that company want to deal with the client anyhow? The client is paying for all the services that a big company has to offer...like worker's comp and insurance...if they ask a 'guy' to do it then they are obviously not after the services of the bigger company for that particular project. NathanW i say you do what you have to do and when someone shows you loyalty then you can act with your heart like all these other guys say they do.
"there aren't any ethics in capitalism"Well, I disagree.If you stand by your point of view, then I imagine it will be a self-fulfilling prohecy for your own future experiences."If a sub-contractor (no benefits employee) can not communicate with a prospective client then wouldn't that be collusion and isn't that bad."You need to brush up on your definition of collusion.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"If a sub-contractor (no benefits employee) "
Guess that all depends how U sell yourself and write up your own contracts?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
yes, i guess it does depend on how well someone sells themselves, because you know it is more important to create an illusion than it is for an employer or contractor to actually pay you what you worth without any b.s.
Edited 1/27/2006 12:19 am ET by huddledmass
Edited 1/27/2006 12:24 am ET by huddledmass
capitalism IS an ethic.You raise the point about him being a sub rather than employee. That might give him moreleeway, but to me it is not clear which he is. He keeps flipping back and forth in his descriotions of the situation and the terminology. that is one reason I didn't get deep into that part of the thing.I'm betting that the 'bosses' here have used a grey area shakey description of their people, using them as subs while treating them as employees, shirting the laws. That - if true- gives them far less rights in this situation.At the same time, the OP needs to clarify those definitions in his mind and follow them in the furture or he will repeat the cycle and hurt himself sooner or later. He can't be caling himself an employee and at the same time saying that he has his own employees on the job. The IRS is pretty clear about which is which and theere is far too much ignoring of the differences in this business.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, the discussion regarding his employee/subcontractor status is irrelevant. As a sub, I treat the general with the same respect as I treat them as an employee. In either case, it's important that every body on the project joins in a uniform effort to enhance the image of their immediate paychek supplier.
When I hire anyone, I expect that there will be a mutual understanding. Of course, some of the youngun's haven't quite learned about that unwritten expectation, but that's just another reason why they don't get paid as much.
What comes around, goes around.
If the OP had snuck in and did the deal, the archy will forever look down on him as a backstabbing weasel. The op will be viewed as just another snake in the pit and when he looks around he'll see that he's surrounded by guys just like him. The irony will be that they all will be making substantially less than their better mannered competion and they'll be continuously complaining about job conditions and lack of cohesion on the jobsite.
This OP (original poster) might be a tad confused, but at least he's seeking counsel. Give credit where credit is due.
blue
There's always the futureas long as we learn from the past
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't think we can get a true sense of your particular circumstances but I have to give you credit for laying it out there in the open for us to take pot shots at you. If you are able to take all this without blowing your top and if fact admitting your mistakes, you will do well in your future ventures. Good luck whether you continue as an employee or on your own.
Nathan, Don't be too hard on yourself, it's water under the bridge now.
The business of construction is such that anytime suppliers or clients are bidding on the same projects as the contractor in the middle, there will be friction with those relationships. Even if it's not technically/legally wrong, or done intentionally. It simply is.
A local concrete outfit was tired of paying high $ for mud and started their own batch plant with a couple of trucks. Their price was lower, but many contractors wouldn't use them because they are also still in the business of installing, not just supplying so they'd be buying mud from their competitor.
As for employees, it's essential that an employee function in the best interest of the employer. It's also a legal responsibility and employers hurt by employees funneling jobs away can take it to court for damages. At least that's what I was told back in school.
Having said that, carpenters are approached all the time for just these types of jobs on the side and I can see how you weren't working against your boss, you just didn't share the bad news with him. Always the potential for a burned bridge when that happens, but not all bridges are worth worrying about.
Grow old gracefully,
Don
How is your new gig going now that your GC has cut and run?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My new gig...If the deck is what you're referring to, I didn't take the project, and wouldn't if it was still on the table. I quit the landscape contractor, for reasons that shouldn't be aired out in public. I began the process of bonding/insuring today. Can't believe I'm going to do this again. Well, I've done everything wrong once, perhaps this time the horse will let me ride off into the sunset...Thanks for asking. Thanks everyone, for helping me to see more clearly. I'm a funny guy, in that I think I would have taken this much differently if I had been the sub who had the employee. Would've seen it coming, and since being the arrogant bastard I am, I would've killed to have someone like me working for me. At least, I would've done everything I could've to keep him around. I think my reaction would've been something like..."hey dude, do one or two for me before you split, ok? I've taught you a bunch about landscaping, how 'bout you knock out a deck with us and teach us a thing or two about efficient construction?" or something. Well, neither of us enjoy living with gray clouds overhead, so I think I'll drop in soon and make a more formal apology, and hope we can bury the hatchet. Good and deep.Eatin' crow on San Juan Island...Nathan
Nathan, you sound like a fellow that I probably wouldn't mind associating with. I like your swagger, your determination and finally, I like your ability to admit a mistake and seek to make amends. Lets face it, nobody's perfect.
Okay, so you screwed up big time, but not all the way. Before any real damage was done, you managed to undo the damage and at least bow out of the bidding process.
The best way to deal with this lesson is to learn from it. Okay, you're going to go talk to the bosses and at least offer up the apology. That's good. I would suggest going in with a solid explanation of how you would deal with the same situation that will come up again and again and again. It's quite possible to create a win-win-win situation if everyone gets on the same page.
The first time I had the opportunity to bite the hand that feeds me, I immediately responded by affirming my loyalty to my employer and thanked the builder for the offer. I covered both bases by telling the builder that I'd check with the boss to see if it's alright if I bid/do the work and if it was, I'd be happy to look at the job. In that case, the boss said no and he was put on alert that his builder wasn't so loyal to him after all. That meant that he had some more PR or selling to do.
I probably wouldn't have fired you simply because you got me into the loop before I lost all hope of landing the job.
I'm all for synergy but I don't bite the hand that feeds me.
blue
the hand that feeds you is your own unless you are a baby or a quadripalegic. Should a guy on welfare be forced to vote for the government that sends him his check? Uhh no. You are the one doing the work and you would be working irregardless of your employer (there are others) or the clients(there are other clients too). So much for capitalism
It was Idaho don I aadressed that Q to about the new gig. Sorry for the interruption or confusion. I thought this had wound down by now
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I like following this thread.......because over the years, it's all been said before, right here in this forum.
What I find most astounding about this topic is that we still have no cohesive, concise definition of what is really ethical in this, or simular situations that seem to confine themselves in the building service industry.
And our industry gobbles up a huge chunk of change. Billions.
We don't see appliance repairmen doing it. When was the last time you saw a appliance repair guy "doing it" on the side? Not to mention "Professionals" Engineers, Lawyers, M.D.'s. When was the last time you asked a Proctologist to work up a profile for you while your setting floor tile for him? You know, just a little side job?
So why do we keep shooting ourselves in the foot...........I'm really not sure........
But here are a couple of possiblities:
1.Greed- Usually the Owner can somehow justify getting a deal by making a deal on the side with an employee or sub. I'm on the record as defining this as theft. If you what to debate that point, look in the archives....it's all been said before.
2. Ambition- and why not/ It's the American way, right. Well, sure. With limitations and serious consiquences. If a Lawyer quits a firm and puts out his own shingle, more power to him. But first he has to pass the bar and get a license. And if his private practice fails, he usually has a hard time getting a partnered position back. Is he blackballed? I don't know. It seems to be the standard. How about other professions? It's seems to be every man for himself out there, no doubt, but in most other professions, you tread beyond carefully for your actions tend to follow you. But not in our business. Because........
3. It appears to be an easy entry=easy exit business. After all "anyone can do it." Which may be true of some trades, but to our detriment, is a myth when it come to running a business. Especially a service business. Behind every customers exclaimation of "I had a bad experience with a Contractor....." is a story of a person trying to get a deal for a cheaper price. And one person willing to offer the deal so they can finance their leap in the world of becoming a business person.
Nathan's statement say's it all:
" I began the process of bonding/insuring today. Can't believe I'm going to do this again....................."
This after he had offered unsecured services, destroyed a working relationship with his employer and put the relationship of his employer and their partners into risk or ruin, and finally, after considering, pondering, if he just might of been outta line, just a little bit, comes to this forum to "ask" if we thought he was "ethical"...........
A bit backward, doncha dink?
And after getting very gentle, helpful observations from his peers, he declares that he's arrogant, proud of it, and now.........to show us how professional he is, he will now seek legal legitimacy by securing the required paperwork to "try it again"
Again?
Sorry fellas, this Nathan guy is the problem with our business. Sorry if you think I'm being to hard on the guy, but I want people like him out of business!!
Nathan, you need to worry about more than your conscience, you need to worrry about your livelihood.
Here is what happens in my area when somebody pulls a stunt like that: sooner or later the boss finds out. Boss fires employee (or stops doing business if a sub). Boss tells all his contractor buddies. Word gets around. Emploee/sub never gets work from anyone else.
And yes most of us do explicitly prohibit employees and subs from soliciting or accepting business that they found out about in connection with working for us.
It's excruciatingly simple. You want jobs, fine. You go spend your own money on marketing and get your own customers.
DG/Builder
That's whjat I meant about the trust issue. Pulling one like this can be like pulling on a uniform jacket and hat every morning with a logo emblazoned on it that says, "I cannot be trusted" People see something like that, whether we do or not. When I'm looking at somebody, they see the logo on my cap, but I can't
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, I love that analogy! I'm going to start using it.
blue
Just a reminder of some of the reasons why talented people are "quickly in and quickly out" of the contracting business. This is not, NOT, an attempt to rationalize the action I initiated and then cancled. The COMPANY fully expects one to:Own, maintain and operate a full-size pickup. Seventy dollars a month fuel compensation... when fuel on the island here is around 2.85 gal regular. Seventy dollars covers a week, when you're running between jobs and backhauiling debris etc...Own and use a cellphone. One-eighty-five going in and forty or fifty a month to maintain.Perform high-quality work based on the education gained from twelve years in the trade, for wages that are below industry standard for the region, in the most expensive county to live in in the state. Median price of a home here is over 1/2 mil, there are only one or two parcels of land on the multi-listing right now. For example, 1.13 acres at $189k.Company does not have a mission statement, nor does it provide regular job-performance reviews. There is no paid time off, sick leave, profit/loss sharing, 401, no benefits of any kind. 'Cept beer Friday afternoons, back at the office. They are pretty flexible in scheduling your time off requests, though.When there isn't any future in the situation, I think desparation will lead to bad decision making. Oh yeah, company grossed over 2 mil in business last year. 15-30 employees.What up with that?It has been pointed out to me many times within the co., that they are proud to have not missed a payroll for six years, whatever it took. Oh boy, that's really remarkable. They subcontract my labor as an employee, and then tell me they are great to work for because I can depend on their paychecks to clear? Sorry, have to look elsewhere, just wish I had gone about it a bit slower, and had the courage to voice these things between them and myself before they boiled over into irrational jobsite-decision making.
You know, if companies paid for this stuff (instead of being slick about it):
"Own, maintain and operate a full-size pickup. Seventy dollars a month fuel compensation... when fuel on the island here is around 2.85 gal regular. Seventy dollars covers a week, when you're running between jobs and backhauiling debris etc...
Own and use a cellphone. One-eighty-five going in and forty or fifty a month to maintain.
Perform high-quality work based on the education gained from twelve years in the trade, for wages that are below industry standard for the region, in the most expensive county to live in in the state. Median price of a home here is over 1/2 mil, there are only one or two parcels of land on the multi-listing right now. For example, 1.13 acres at $189k.
Company does not have a mission statement, nor does it provide regular job-performance reviews. There is no paid time off, sick leave, profit/loss sharing, 401, no benefits of any kind..."
Would employees need to seek side jobs?
Same BS happens where I work- except for medical benefits.
This employer isn't all cherries and roses like some wanted to assume.
Can you blame the guy for looking out for himself?
When someone has to highlight that their paychecks clear something is wrong...THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO CLEAR.
Nathan, you still don't get it. The capitalism part of it. If you don't like the working conditions (financial, benefits or otherwise), go work for someone else. Nobody holds you there against your will.
If you can't find anyone else with better terms, you are free to start your own outfit and treat your employees and subs better. Or get into a different line of business. It's a free country and nobody owes you a comfortable living. Or even an uncomfortable living.
DG/Builder
Hi Doug...I do get it... i just went at it improperly. Sort of I know what I was doing, but what was I thinking!Thanks for commenting and reminding me of stuff...N
Nathan,
It's just not that tough to make money in woodwork. You know how to be a carpenter--now you just have to learn how to go about building a business.
There's a labor shortage pretty much everywhere in north america--that's not going to change soon. What you can charge will steadily increase in the coming years...
BTW--What happened last time? (I am sure we are all curious)
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Umm... pretty personal stuff. Can't really go into it except to say that everyone is still alive, and doing much better now.Nathan
I missed the part where someone put a gun to your head and told you that you had to work for this clown.
So you're boss is an azz clown. Big deal. What's that got to do with how you carry yourself and what is right and what is wrong?
You want to start a thread about what we all think about your boss? Go for it. I'll agree with you all the way to Christmas that he's stiffing you guys like a greedy pig. But that's not the thread you started, is it? The thread you started is one where you're looking for feedback on your actions... not your boss's.
Move on brother. It sounds like you deserve better than what you're getting. Don't let your boss's actions drag you down to his level. Losing a good carpenter like you has got to hurt far worse than losing a deck job or two....or even a dozen. You wanna get even with the boss? Start your own business and become the competition. But do it the right way by setting up a legal, respectable business. Don't do it by swiping sidework. You sound like you're a better man than that.View Image
I am, for sure. Messed up decision. Don't know what else to say, and I sure didn't want to make it seem like I was offering up another round of excuses for myself. Thought I clarified that in the beginning of my post, which was a response to why employees can be put into a position where they may make poor ethical decisions. I did quit, and yesterday evening went in and had a little face to face with my very hardworking boss. Fessed up to a poor decision, that wasn't intended to back stab.Nathan
with that kind of logic why dont you just rob banks after all they have a lot of money and they were nice clothes. I had a lot of bosses that were rich and nasty but you know what they gave me a job.
I've had up to ten employees at one time. Treated them all like human beings, continued employing them when work was slow, doing projects for myself, kept them on when I knew there were bare cupboards at their houses. Went bankrupt, but what the hell. Just money.Not saying I'll do it again that way, though.
At 2 million gross with 15-30 employess, I wouldn't say your boss is working on a big margin.Meeting payroll for 15-30 employees is nothing to sneeze at either. At one time I had 5 and I can't tell you what a burden that is. And if each of them stole just one job away from me a year, it would have been catastrophic to my business.Stealling a job or a lead from your employer is no different than if he changed your time card, and paid you less money at the end of the week.Period.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
"Stealling a job or a lead from your employer is no different than if he changed your time card, and paid you less money at the end of the week.
Period."
There is one quite significant difference. In the absence of a specific agreement between employer and employee, one action is legal and the other is not.
As an aside, I was telling an employee about this thread. He told me that he had been approached by one of our clients about some side work unrelated to anything we had done. He informed one of my partners and was answered by a characteristic shrug which signified "OK". He told me the lady figured (correctly) that the job was too small for us to be interested in. Does this make her a snake? Did she have any obligation to us other than paying us for the work we performed? He did not take on the work for his own reasons though we had no objection.
A related ethical question. What if the employee quits his job? Can he use the contacts that he has made while working for his now ex-boss? If not, is there any level of compensation that would make it acceptable?
the lady figured (correctly) that the job was too small for us to be interested in
And if it had been a lucrative project for your company? Would that have changed your tune and gotten more than a "shrug" out of your partner?
Regardless.... I think the gripe everyone has isn't that the guy was approached. Of course, that's going to happen. That'd be like telling your wife to not get hit on. The problem was the employee 'courting' the employer's client. And then the conversation drifted to whether accepting sidework from an employer's client is acceptable or not. I think most guys have said that they do allow their guys to do sidework.... but they (we) feel that we deserve to be notified about it.... especially if it's from an existing client.
Taking on side jobs isn't the problem. It's taking on side jobs from a employer's client and undercutting the employer by low-balling that creates a problem. You can't see the conflict of interest in that?View Image
"And if it had been a lucrative project for your company? Would that have changed your tune and gotten more than a "shrug" out of your partner?"
Of course it would have gotten more than a shrug. We would have told him that it was not okay and would have had a discussion with the owner. Not that we would have beat her up about it but we would want to know what else we could do to make her happy. Maybe she does want a lower price. Who doesn't? In that case we would encourage her to give our competition a call but not our employees.
"Taking on side jobs isn't the problem. It's taking on side jobs from a employer's client and undercutting the employer by low-balling that creates a problem. You can't see the conflict of interest in that?"
I see the conflict but then again, I am an employer. As such I can hardly be expected to take a disinterested position.
Oh... then I guess we are on the same page then. My bad. I got the impression, from your previous post, that you were ok with what had transpired and that you didn't really care what your employees did for side work, nor cared where they found these opportunities. Your recent post was worded nicely and cleared that up. Thanks.View Image
"That'd be like telling your wife to not get hit on. "
That's freaking genius! I think we already have a winner for "best one sentence" of this new year!
I love that line ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"There is one quite significant difference. In the absence of a specific agreement between employer and employee, one action is legal and the other is not."Thought we were talking ethics here not legalities. Lots of things are legal but not ethical and vice versa.Asking an employer about a side job for one of his customers, and stealing the job behind his back are two different scenarios. I may not care about losing two bucks in cash in general. Two bucks is nothing to me. But if a guy snuck in my truck and stole it from my dash tray, why I could never trust the again.Theft is theft. "Thou shalt not steal" doesn't have an asterisk that says "only if it's something of significant value"John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
"Thought we were talking ethics here not legalities. Lots of things are legal but not ethical and vice versa."
I agree. But ethical questions are a little less clear and what is obvious an employer is not obvious to the employee. That's why to original poster asked the question. I am willing to bet that 90% of the respondents were employers.
You see it as stealing. While I can envision circumstances where that would be the case, most of the time I don't think that taking a side job for an employer's client falls into that category. Should the employee ask his employer's permission? Of course, that is just common courtesy. Our employees would and have done that.
Would I fire an employee who did not ask permission? It would have to be a pretty blatant case for me to fire an employee who had been faithfully performing his job for 20 years. I certainly wouldn't feel bashful about giving him a hard time about it but that is about as far as I would go.
If he was a new employee, I would give him a brief explanation of how the business works, as many of the posters have done, and tell him to make the choice of whether he wished to continue to work for us.
This thread reminds me of discussion that I have heard from my wife and her fellow real estate sales people. They often talk about the ethics of their profession and the violations of those ethics by one individual or another. They also blame the customers for violating those same rules. How is the customer supposed to know about these ethical rules? I have listened to many hours of these discussions and I don't fully understand them. Everybody knows taking money out of someone's truck is stealing but why can't you talk to a couple of different real estate brokers about the same listing? This is something people need to learn; it is not something they know.
Good points there. The easy entry/exit issue is because of lack of licensing and licensing restrictions. The other examples you gave were mostly in licensed professions, except for th eappliance repair where yes I do see a lot of side work go on.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
How is your new gig going now that your GC has cut and run?
We're moving right along. Probably two weeks away from the final.
As for the peckerwood, he's apparently flown the coupe back to New York and is probably in deeper doodoo than he thinks. I probably shouldn't say much, other than a number of legal heavy hitters are intent on getting their money back.
The out of town owner of one project called just yesterday and apparently wasn't told of anything until just two days ago. Poor guy paid almost 90% up front and has a second story shell with no siding, windows or formal roof that sat for the last 5 months. Nimwit told the other clients this guy was paying in regular draws and simply ran out of money.
He also allegedly blew smoke up the clients ars regarding a number of important issues on a regular basis. F-R-A-U-D? LLC bankruptcy won't protect him from that.
It's unfortunate for the clients, but has opened a few good doors for us. I'm booked solid for the next 6-7 months with 2 more months "soft scheduled", another carp is probably booked for 3-4 months, and a third and fourth both have two months of quality work. We're also on really good terms with the better subs, so that keeps our lives simple.
Did you ever get that electric log splitter? How's the shoulder?
Cheers,
Don
shoulder going slow but sure right direction still stiff though.I managed to split several cords before surgery so postponing that one for a bit.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Very well said.
but their reaction was that I stabbed them in the back, by pursuing work they were capable of doing.
yes ... you did.
and most places would have fired you on the spot.
me included.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
to take it one step farther ...
I do about 50% "my own" jobs ...
and 50% sub work ... for kitchen and bath dealers.
just about every other job ... I am asked about a deck or some other non-kitchen/bath related job ... same answer each and ever time ...
sure I'd be interrested ... call Mr X and ask him if they're interrested.
I don't even ask the owner myself ... if the customer is serious ... and the k & b owner is cool with it ... I'll hear about it sooner or later. I'm not there to solicite more work ... I'm there as a sub to hang cabinets on the wall. Also helps that I fully realize 99.99% of the time a customer wants to talk to a tradesman about "doing a side job" ... it's because they want a full days work for a half days pay.
I got no problem pricing it out and having the K & B place add whatever percent they deem neccessary on top and selling it to their customer.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
the first thing i tell my employees is do not talk about money and no side jobs. also all refferals are mine. if a neighbor comes over you do not have the right to talk to him. my co earned that right. in your case thereis one thing everyone and you overlooked. when a man did what you did to me i talked to every contractor in town and warned them . i did everything in my power to make sure it was known what you did. even to the people i dont get along with. paybacks a bitch.
NathanW.....ever feel like you're controlled by ego's ? From reading your post's I think your intentions were just to do a job that rounded out what you had already completed , no back stabbing intended. If I agreed with other post's 7 years in the electric chair would be to good of a punishment for you. On the other hand maybe your company could have taken a second look and put you in a position to estimate the deck job that they were not goingto get anyway and hsve been enlightened at what you could really do for your company in the future .
It interrest's me how a company can classify a man as "a dime a dozen nailpounder" and still look for ways for the company to grow ,when the company is the people that work for them, thier biggest resource for growing. The bottom line greed of a company (the we know it all and your a dummy) seems counter productive to nuturing real talent that lies within . Yes I know what it takes to run a company ,people,I would be happy to have you in ours.
"It interrest's me how a company can classify a man as "a dime a dozen nailpounder" and still look for ways for the company to grow ,when the company is the people that work for them, thier biggest resource for growing"
I like the way you think!
On the other hand maybe your company could have taken a second look and put you in a position to estimate the deck job that they were not goingto get anyway and hsve been enlightened at what you could really do for your company in the future .
Legitimate point. Had he brought the idea to his employer originally.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm definitely not snoozing, as someone put it. I wouldn't be here writing and reading if I was asleep. Just wondering what you all thought about it, and now I'll think more about it. If I hadn't contacted my boss before sealing the deal, to let him know what was up, then perhaps I would have been a back stabber. As it was, I did "fess up", and dealt with the fallout. Anyone who wants to criticize my integrity can go find a bridge. When I commit significant time of my lifetime to someone, I fully expect some things from them. When those things don't come, I'll not hesitate to go looking. I just wish I had been under a bit less pressure, which would have allowed me the thinking time necessary to put the whole thing into perspective before making a move. Transparency is always a good thing.Ultimately, today, tradition rules the jobsite. I'll have to tread much more carefully around this matter in the future.
Edited 1/25/2006 10:59 am ET by NathanW
Nathan,
Personally I don't blame you for your actions. Their is a different culture within the building trades and it is evident by reading these responses. If you earn a living in another line of work this would more readily pass as normal, especially in the corporate world. It ultimately boils down to looking out for yourself and taking advantage of opportunities. All too often loyalty is a one way street. Employers demand it but don't practice it themselves. One week you are putting an additional 20 hours and not being compensated...then they are laying you off the week after.
A lot of the responses in here are nothing more than people protecting their livelyhood, and who can blame them. But you are doing the same thing, and who can blame you.
"If you earn a living in another line of work this would more readily pass as normal, especially in the corporate world."How often do those in the corporate world find themselves competing against unlicensed & uninsured workers?"A lot of the responses in here are nothing more than people protecting their livelyhood, and who can blame them. But you are doing the same thing, and who can blame you."Maybe those that provide your livelihood?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"If you earn a living in another line of work this would more readily pass as normal, especially in the corporate world." I don't know what corporate world you're talking about. Non-compete clauses are very common in the corporate world, and can often extend a year or longer after you quit a company.His behavior was at worst unethical and at best poor form. Either way, it takes rationalization to justify. Just read his follow-up posts telling us about the additional details he left out.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
All too often loyalty is a one way street. Employers demand it but don't practice it themselves. One week you are putting an additional 20 hours and not being compensated...then they are laying you off the week after.
Yup, been there.
They need to contact you, but don't provide a phone.
They complain that the job is taking too long, yet don't invest in some time saving tools or maintain the ones they have. If you bring your own in, they refuse to fix them when they break.
They complain that they can't get the material delivered in time, yet ask you to take it in your truck. If you show up in a car, you are already on borrowed time.
And when/if the employee provides the services/tools, a deaf ear is turned when "compensation" is mentioned to the boss.
Then when it slows down, you are laid off because you are not one of the "core guys that have been there for 10 years..."- even if you do all the "extras" for free.
Of course when you don't do those "free extras", you get canned anyways.
i used to bring my tools to work and everyone would use them including the boss and then one day they got stolen from his job-site and i was on my own-he said it was my risk to leave them there-he did offer to finance new tools though- he probably thought that i would bring them to work...i refused anyway just so there wouldn't be any confusion...i don't even bring a cordless drill now.
I have reached the same point. If the boss wants to treat me as a subcontractor, placing some of the burdens of his business on my shoulders (and taking from my paycheck), then the boss can pay me as a subcontractor.
Ok... I read to #32... eyes are crossing.
Yes--you mowed the other contractor's lawn.
You are a sub today--but if you continue to be a sub you will starve.
Has to do with station in life--status--cast in some cultures. Anyhow. You are not fitting into the culture of Sub. You need to be marketing, designing and selling your own work.
Get on with it.
Here's a link for you. Starting in the deck business
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
"It interrest's me how a company can classify a man as "a dime a dozen nailpounder" and still look for ways for the company to grow ,when the company is the people that work for them, thier biggest resource for growing. The bottom line greed of a company (the we know it all and your a dummy) seems counter productive to nuturing real talent that lies within."I don't see how you jump from an employer having an issue with an employee soliciting work to exploitation?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon...."I don't see how you can jump from an employer having an issue with an employee soliciting work to exploitation "
I'm a Democrat......:)
Enough said.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I wasn't going to reply because I thought the other 17 guys who did explained it pretty well. Your responses seem to differ with my appriasal.
Let me pose a scenario for you. I'm the part owner or a remodeling company. We have taken a lot of our time & money to put our company together. When we secure a job we are not only looking for a profitable job but also the goal of increasing our market presence and developing our brand. A lot of work goes in to all of the above.
When I find out than an employee or sub is involved with my client without coming to me first, I think the employee/sub is capitalizing on all the work that I've done.
If you do get a job that results from one of my jobs, hopefully all will go well. Worst case scenario is you screw up the job and I'm guilty by association.
Of course, unless you've signed a non-complete clause or something similar your employer has no real grounds to stand on. However, don't you think it would behove you to consider the interests of those who provide work for you?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
This pretty much defines 'conflict of interest' and I can't think of anyone who employs people and would stand for this. You were trying to compete with your own employer, whether they were going to be considered or not.
I'd have fired you.
Might sound harsh but it's true.
I assume you want to go out on your own because you are not earning enough $$ form your current employer. I have seen tradespeople seek their own ambitions and have done very well! Others get sick and tired of the "people" work/paper work and go back to being an employee. Good Luck!
This thread brought to mind how fragile our relationships in the construction business can be, when someone can simply open their mouth and take work away from someone else.
The more shakey a GC's relationships are, the more defensive they'll be about poachers. If a service is mostly a commodity, then they are really at risk.
Personally, I'm not as concerned with poaching, although it's generally a no-no, but in the gray areas I'd side with the guy who is trying to build the better product. If a client isn't sure they want me then I'd rather be working with those who do. Even with employers, if they aren't thrilled I'm there, it will only take a few calls to make a horizontal move to another company. The reality is, we all work against each other in competition, it's only a matter of how far removed.
The most secure builders I've had the privledge of working next to would not feel awkward in offereing to lend a carpenter or two if they have a slow time and you need help, and that's on projects that were bidded on by both. Carpenters can do side jobs for the GC's client--anything outside of the original contract the GC has with the owner.
I asked the guy who ran one of these crews why he isn't as up tight about it all and he simply said that if any one of the carpenters working for him could do a better job and steal work away then hat's off to 'em. He's right, at least in their situation. Individual carps can pick up crumbs, but significant jobs require solid crews, or else why hire a full crew in the first place? Not surprisingly, the carpenters are well paid and few have been there less than 7 years, with little turnover amoung asst. carps and laborers. They are good individually, but not as good as they are working together.
Now that I'm back in business as a solo act, I'm back to competing with other solo guys and sometimes clients will want to divide newer portions of jobs that haven't been formally contracted for. I'll gladly let them do it, but with the warning that we'll keep a clear separation between their work and mine, since my work is done right and with their's you'll get what you paid for. Then I'll politely suggest that if they'll settle for lesser work, then most likely I'm not the right guy for them and we can mutually cancel the contract and go our separate ways if they'd like. I've only had to say that 4 times over the years and each time they had me finish the entire project.
To have leverage you need to keep additional work in the wings, and the client, either a GC or homeowner, needs to know that if a payment is missed, or they want to use another carpender that you're only a call away from working for someone else. It's not extorsion, just quality work, a good work ethic, good relationship building with the client--it's leverage. :-)
Cheers,
Don