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Hey Ross:
While I certainly agree with the horror stories,
two items come to mind:
Ship’s ladders and “library ladders”
Library ladders, you don’t have to get off.
Ship’s ladders, as any sailor will tell you, require a lot of attention, and the key their success is the handrails you can actually grab. Most of us kind of slide down those ladders on our hands, and climb half with our hands, half with our feet.
Good luck. Maybe the building official is a sailor!
Steve
Replies
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I recommend the "Bat Pole"
*Bud,Rather than drop the stairs from above have you given concideration to a ladder like in librarys or book stores> Ladders that can be moved out from the wall as to reduce the pitch
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Greetings FHBers,
I'm renovating a back woodshed (another silk purse from a sow's ear), and when the stairs the owners want are installed there won't be much room left for anything else. I recall an article somewhere, probably FHB, about a nifty alternate-step cross between a ladder and a set of stairs. Does anyone have a clue what I'm talking about? Perhaps somebody might even know what issue it could be found in? (or was it in JLC?). Pictures would be a great way to show the people what i've got in mind. These stairs go to a dead-end loft of about 250 SF, and although they definitely don't conform to any building code I've heard of, apparently they've been used and approved in other projects, so I'm wondering what would constitute such an exception to the standard code (before I approach my inspector with the idea I hope to have a little ammunition to back me up).... Anyone want to tackle this question for me?
*Ross,Many moons ago I was doing a a project with Adirondack Jack in upstate New York in the Lake George area. He must have read the same article that you are referring for. He designed a step-ladder combo for a large garage which would drop down from the second floor storage area.It looked great, and at first glance appeared to be a very functional concept, but let me tell you this; we damn near killed ourselves on the thing. Partly from laughing so hard, and also from actually stopping our fall to the concrete slab below. If I recall the events correctly ( which at my age is always questionable ), I was the first to ascend the ladder-stair. About half way up, with one foot on one level, and the other at another, I stopped to discuss with AJ how the ladder-step felt to me. That was when the problem began. When you finish talking, or whatever, your mind has been programmed over as many years that you have climbed steps, to believe that the other half of the step that your upper foot is on, EXISTS. So you instinctively bring your lower foot up to the same level and find nothing but air. Luckily, these things are built fairly steep, so as you grab for things to catch yourself, your lower foot eventually lands on the half-step that it started from, which scares you half to death.We tore it down and built a drop-down in the traditional manner, laughing all the way.Bottom line? If we're talking about the same thing, I would not reccommend it. Which accounts for the fact that, outside of a magazine article, you haven't ever seen one of these things. The very thought of it has me laughing all over again.
*ken, thank you for answering the question i had when i read that article.-
*I think they're referred to as "preacher's stairs." Not positive, though...I'm on the road right now without reference to my issues. I remember the issue and thought it was in a "finishing touches" or something similar section. However, I do have reference in one of my files to a small staircase in issue 116, pp106. It may be a goose chase, sorry if it is.
*The codes call them alternating tread devices. Tough to carry things while climbing.
*Bill,I imagine that it would be very difficult to carry anything while climbing ( or descending), as these ladder/stairs are very steep by design.But once again, whether going up, or coming down, don't ever stop thinking about what you are stepping on, or you'll find yourself on your butt at the bottom, hopefully, in one piece.
*And keep in mind - there is a center stile - between your legs. Don't slip.
*Ken Drake remembers well....I had to laugh again also...The absolute right way to build steep stairs is to stay roughly with the stair rules of thumb (rise + run = 15 to 17" as I semi-recall)....So if you want say ladder really steep "stairs" just space the steps similar to a ladder, say 12" apart with a 2x4 "rung"...Ken and I experienced first hand (or rather "foot")how terrible the alternating tread stairs are to actually try to use...They were totally impossible to hesitate or stop on without being in grave falling danger!!!@!! If you don't believe us just build a set sometime and try them yourself, but first hook into fall protection gear.Back to our solution...The final stairs that we built worked super ... As I recall they have 5 1/2" tread/runs and ten inch rises...The key on steep ladderish stairs is to increase the rise and decrease the run enough for the feet to clear the treads....They work well and can be easily navigated without holding on to a railing and even paused on and talked to on with little danger of tumbling to terra firma...If you're not sure what will work for you just make a test set or two with a few treads and try them out till your satisfied with your design...near the stream,j
*Bill...your right about the center stringer being the root cause of at least ten of the twenty ways we figured out how to fall off verses "navigate the alternating tread stairs we built....aj
*Hey Ross:While I certainly agree with the horror stories,two items come to mind:Ship's ladders and "library ladders"Library ladders, you don't have to get off.Ship's ladders, as any sailor will tell you, require a lot of attention, and the key their success is the handrails you can actually grab. Most of us kind of slide down those ladders on our hands, and climb half with our hands, half with our feet. Good luck. Maybe the building official is a sailor!Steve
*Hi Ross,Willibald Mannes book, DESIGNING STAIRCASES, has several versions of these stairs, including designs with no center stringer.My guess is that if you had them and got used to them, they would work fine.Don't put them where occasional guests would have to use them in the dark.The book was originally published in German in 1974.The English translation is published by Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1982.ISBN 0-442-22578-4Good health, Weogo
*Ross,A ships ladder is the correct term. There is a special code for it somewhere. My dad did one on a beach house back in the 70's. The key is no risers or intermidiate stringers. Your foot has to go under the next stair up. These are not good if you have to carry things up to the loft. Steve is right about having to use your hands.Rick Tuk
*Ross, Steve, Weogo, and Rick....Forget the ship's stairs period, their is no way to get "used to them" and return to the "real" world after. Try building my steep standard stairs...MY client is over 70 now and has been carrying boxes in and out of his garage loft without holding handrails a million times successfully from day one till today. They work so well that we're still all amazed at the simplicity of the solution to this day...near the stream,j
*Jack The only way I would ever use the ships ladder is if were too steep for the steps to be built to code. We have only come across this once in 50 years of buisness.Rick Tuk