*
et al,
A few experiments that you folks can do at home while you’re trying to figure out who the king of bullshit is at BT. Find yourself a few mayonnaise jars. . .
1).
This will represent what you will do if this is your attic and you are following the advice of one Fred Lugano, Weatheriztion expert.
Fill one halfway with your favorite cellulose product. Than fill with water till the cellulose absorbs as much as it can, than add about 1 inch more of water. This will represent the moisture that is being pumped into your attic from the living space.
Now take some petroleum jelly and wipe some on the rim of the jar and seal it with it’s lid. This will represent the un-vented attic. Mark a line on the jar to show it’s level. Leave it alone and come back in three years and check and mark the level once again. The difference in these two marks will be the amount of moisture that has diffused from your attic.
2).
Do the same as above and this time leave off the lid (vented attic). Come back in three days and compare the levels.
I hope I’ve made this as simple as possible.
Joseph Fusco
© 1999
“The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it.”
Aristotle
Replies
*
I thought is was LUGANO.
First let me confess my total ignorance of this subject ( other than what has been debated on this board over the last few years) as here down under we do not have the weather extremes that you have. Given that, are you saying Joe, that a sealed jar is as airtight as an unvented attic?? Are you saying that an unvented roof space has absolutely no place for moisture to disperse??
In ignorance
mark
*Mark,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*I won't claim any real insight here either. How about this experiment:Put the insulaiton in two jars, seal one and don't seal the other.Which one will pick up moisture in a humid climate faster? If we're assuming that an unvented attic is absolutely air tight (not likely) then the absolutely airtight jar with no moisture in it should be as good a model as the absolutely air tight jar with water poured into it.
* Ryan,
Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
* Ryan,
Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
*Attic venting can save your life!We proved this a few years back with the following experiment. In building a tract, we took four houses that were otherwise identical. In the first we installed soffit venting. In the second gable end vents. In the third ridge vents. And the fourth was left entirely unvented. In each attic we installed a hose and a water meter, so that we could accurately measure the moisture we put into each attic. The house with the soffit vents performed best, taking on only about 4000 liters before the vents allowed the water to run out. The house with the gable end vents took on almost ten times as much, 36000 liters before the vents became effective. Ridge venting was very ineffective taking almost 50000 liters. The house without any venting continued to take water until the weather turned bad. We left it in the afternoon and by the next morning that attic had frozen solid. The expansion of the ice had caused structural failure and the house had collapsed. Had it been occupied, the people would have been crushed by all the ice. Without a doubt, soffit vents provide the greatest saftey.
*I read an article recently that was absolutely amazing in repspects to "air tight" houses. This article, and the convention about which it spoke were just a few days after 60 Minutes, or 20/20, or whichever show it was aired the segment about sick houses. This organization, and the convention was for HVAC companies, and it was their annual national convention. During this convention, they publicly, and almost unanimously voted to accept the findings that air tight houses were killing some people, and making others very sick. They based their findings on scientific evidence, as well as their own studies and investigations for the last year. The testing and studies were proposed at their last annual convention, and this year they presented their findings, and voted on a resolution. Air tight houses are bad. This is their simple statement. They now agree that venting is the best way to keep the occupants safe. They concluded that this idea may not be the cheapest in terms of heating and cooling the homes, but it was indeed the safest for the occupants. They went into great detail about the backdrafting problems, CO2 levels, etc... I am currently trying to find the names of the governing officials of the organization's national office. When I do, I will post them, along with their mailing addresses, or web addresses. Then we can all ask them some more questions such as who exactly did the testing, if the results are indeed scientific or just assumptions, and why they suddenly changed their minds. I have to wonder if people getting sick because of their heating and cooling units contaminating the homes had anything to do with their decisions (liability issues).Anyway, I will keep you all informed. This could get very intersting before it is all over.James DuHamel
*.......Babe , your chicken-shit experiment must have been financed by the Soffit vent conspirators....obviously they couldn't allow one of my fan attics in the experiment,,,or even a couple of turbine vents.....not much of a scientific experiment , now , was it ???
*Babe, Maybe it's just me but I was totally lost until I got to Your post. Thanks for the insightful information and I was thinking that the house with all the ice overhead would be a real bitch to heat. Also IMHO the finest grains and grasses make for the tenderest steaks and in being digested become the bullshit that Joe refers to, and down here even bullshit has a use. Skip
* Skip,
Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
*Joe:Some folks haven't been around long enough to remember that I mean, b Babe and "Freddy Lu" were the best of buddies. Having been there, it makes it easier to connect the dots. One problem: On my next house, I'll build the attic as tight as a mayonnaise jar but I think I'll choose to build the with the water i outside rather than inside. Only thing that I haven't figured out is what I'll use in place of that Vaseline seal you refer to around the lid to make it i perfectly airtight and submersible. Maybe I can commission a ship wright to build the top end of the house! (TIC)
*All this "experiment" proves is that if you have a hose running water into your attic the most effective solution (aside from shutting off the hose) is to install a FLOOR DRAIN in the attic. Please don't waste the server space. Save the BS for the tavern!EB
* Eric M. Borgman,
Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
*Joe,So you're Babe Mardell? It was that post (No. 4)and it's ridiculous sounding "experiment" I was responding to. But you're just too much of a pompous self-absorbed jackass to realize that not everyone is out to discredit you and your theories. I may have been the last person on this board who didn't totally discount your posts as the rantings of a lunatic. Is it lonely up there? Just you and God?Fare thee well, Mr. Fusco.
*Easy Eric,I think most people around here know that Babe Mardell is one of FredL's creations (like his stick figure cartoons). It's a parody of Gabe Martel, another Breaktime regular (up until the last few months). Gabe engaged in many disagreements with FredL and things got personal between them. FredL has that effect. I admired Gabe for standing up to FredL. I think he just got tired of the exchanges. I admire Joe's persistance. I'm afraid I don't have the energy to carry on a daily debate. I do however follow them.John
*Better use KY, you just never know.
*Lonecat, my man... great insight as usual... I mean, someone could Blow A Seal with the wrong lubricant!
* Eric M. Borgman,
Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
*.......GWC...good reference..when we were driving coffer dam steel piling and we couldn't hold a seal, the old timers would pour uncooked oatmeal down the joints... it would expand ... and voila.. the pumps could keep up..maybe we should start sustituting oatmeal for the cellulose, hmmmm
*... or Blow A Seal more i efficientlyusing the right lubricant.Course their could be collateral problems differentiaiting Seal Blow by from lube smear.. . -pm
*Joe,I've been contemplating your jar experiment and I'm a bit confused. From some of your posts over the past couple of months, you seem to doubt the ability of Fred (or anyone else) to seal the attic floor thoroughly enough to actually stop moisture from entering the attic. But your jar experiment would seem to indicate that you think the entire attic envelope can (will?) get sealed up as tight as a jar without anyone making a special effort to do so.Fred (if you're reading this),You have posted many times that vents are not just unnecessary, but actually bad for the house as a whole. Buti ifthe attic floor is completely air sealed, then how bad can the vents be? The attic is outside the conditioned envelope and the attic floor is sealed...in this case, I have a hard time seeing the argument that the venting is bad (maybe unnecessary, but not bad).Thank-you in advance.Rich Beckman
*James, I've always been in the too tight is bad group. I believe that there is such a thing as too tight. Back in the late 70's, early 80's, the energy crunch dictated a renewed effort toward air-tightness, and super insultated homes to save fuel.I remember one builder telling me that he had run into trouble keeping the furnace perating properly. Evidently, the oxygen levels in the air tight homes had changed, creating a need for an outside air source.What does that tell you about the quality of the air in a home?I believe that the best way to properly provide enough vents for air changes is sloppy carpentry. If you leave just the right amount of cracks here and there, everyone is healthier.Cheap windows are also good for air changes.And you know what the funny thing is?I'm not kidding.Blue
*Joe, I've got a better experiment.Why don't all those that think it's okay to seal their homes up do this? Tie a garbage bag aound their head and neck, and seal it tight.We (the group that advocates venting) will do the same, but add a few vents.Then, the last guy standing wins the argument!Hope this helps.Blue
* Blue,
Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
* Rich,
Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
*Rich:I can't speak for Joe, but I understood your statement to address the exact point that Joe was trying to make which i took to mean that i whenmoisture migrates up into the attic it will have no way to escape if there are no vents.I don't think your statement "without anyone making a special effort to do so" fits, as the Vaseline represents the "special effort".Here's my experiment - Build a house. I don't care if you vent the attic or not! Prior to the installation of the attic insulation, spend 5 to 10 hours sealing the attic floor. Once you are i sure that the attic floor is air tight, flood the attic with 2000 gallons of water. This will help you find any remaining possible sites of water infiltration. Seal those leaks. Repeat water test! Seal leaks again. Don't install your attic insulation until just before the move in as the electricians and/or trim carpenters and/or HVAC folks and/or who knows who else, will put new holes in your ceiling seal during their trim outs. Now build a few more houses, foregoing the water test, since you have already learned that you can't keep water from migrating through the ceiling. Repeat the 5 - 10 hour ceiling sealing on each house.Report back your findings and newly formed opinions to Breaktime, specifically how practicable it is to i completely seal an attic floor.By the way. All my statements are null and void for Vermont, as I have never built a house there!
*Joe,You still seem to be saying that the attic floor sealingi willfail, but the attic will remain tight as a sealed jar! I still see a contradiction here. Just as i ifthe attic floor is sealed, I don't see how the prescence or abscence of attic vents can impact the interior conditions of the house.Is there anyone who can explain it so i Ican understand? Maybe the ultimate challenge! :=)Rich Beckman
*Sorry to jump in Joe, but I think you're trying to narrow the definition of diffusion too much.From Webster:Diffusion: "The process whereby particles of liquids, gases, or solids intermingle as the result of their spontaneous movement caused by thermal agitation and in dissolved substances move from a region of higher to one of lower concentration"Any mechanism that causes liquids, gases or solids to move from an area of high concentration to an area of lower concentration can be described as "diffusion"I'm guessing your experiment is somewhat TIC since it's not very scientific - i.e. it uses different materials and methods than the system it's intended to model. Are you aware of anyone who has done some legitimate experiments with these concepts?John H
*Rich - I don't read Fusco's posts so not sure if this addresses your question. I believe some reasons that attic venting maybe deleterious to building performance are:-it may reduce pressure in the attic - thus increasing the pressure differential between condition space and unconditioned space and increasing the inevitable bypass of some air-they often times admit mositure - humid air in warm, humid times of the year and wind driven rain and snow all year-convection above insulation may reduce its effectivenessAlways nice to read a civil question in these hostile times.
*John H,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Rich,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Bozo,
Joseph Fusco View Image© 1999"It is better to be feared. . . Then loved!" Machiavelli
*Blue- YEAH!- Way to cut to the chase!John
*Joe,Well, of course I had already read 1.1 a long time ago, but you were right to send me back to it. I like the 2nd paragraph:>Since Lagano's ultimate goal is to achieve the highest degree of air-tightness in the building envelope, the sealed jar represent his goal. Do I believe that any attic can achieve this degree of air tightness? No, not at this time with the present technology but, then again, I'm in the venting crowd.In light of this, I now understand that your experiment is strictly to demonstrate diffusion, and that you never intended the jar to actually represent an attic.Yes?Rich Beckman
*Bill,You make three points. Assuming all are valid, the 2nd and 3rd amount to no more than minor problems, especially if the vent is a ridge vent and Shingle Vent II is used (I think that's the one that is always recommended, of course, my house has those mushroom vents, but no snow ever come in).The first point is the important one.>-it may reduce pressure in the attic - thus increasing the pressure differential between condition space and unconditioned space and increasing the inevitable bypass of some airIt is this effect that Fred is referring to (I think) when he talks about the attic vents being dangerous.i But if the attic floor is thoroughly sealed, the "inevitable bypass" will not occur.I think Fred just recently actually compared his sealing efforts to a waterbed matress So I am still looking for a compelling reason to not venti IFthe attic floor is properly sealed.Rich Beckman
*As I read these posts I sort thru them and I come to the conclusion that the concern here is over water vapor. And how after it gets into an attic it can present problems if it is not allowed to escape.I can give you some real world expriences with the trapping of water vapor.Durring desert survival training we are given a poncho, a canteen cup and told to get some water to drink. The enviroment is rough rocky desert, near zero percet humidity, and around 110f degrees plus.Now what you do is spread the poncho out over a depression in th ground with the cup placed in the center of the depression. Put a small rock over the cup. Finally put soil around the edges to eiminate the drafts and wait. After several hours the heat will cause the water vapor to leave the soil and condense on the poncho. The liquid will flow from the capillary action towards the center and drip into the cup.To make this more effective add liquid (your urine as the waste will stay in the ground like salt lakes) to the soil under the poncho or us a piece of plastic. If you are to be in the desert stranded get into a hole large enough for you to build the rig as a shelter as well. Dig a cave outof direct sun exposier within the hole. This will recycle your own sweat that evaporates as water vapor.Now since you may be asking what the point of this is, allow me to explain.Water vapor is everywere. Period. We produce it as waste from our own body as well as from cleaning, the fish tank, a glass of water we don't finish, whatever. We will not ever eliminate it from our homes, no matter how tight they are. This vapor will travel thru any structure and will condense were ever it becomes trapped and/or cools. We have seen the effects of damp insulation, aluminum windows, the mirror in the bathroom, etc. Please note that as the water in the poncho condensed it most definitely was not cool just trapped.Finally we all know the damage water can cause. There for it only seems to reason that the best way to prevent that type of dammage is to try to prevent trapped vapors that will eventually condense.Basically we try to do this inside the heated envelope by properly circulating the air thru balanced HVAC systems. Outside the envelope we try to do this by equalizing the humidity levels inside the strcture and out thru venting. We do this with foundation vents for crawl spaces as well as several varieties of roof vents. It is my opinion that this is all pretty much common sense. Once I stopped to think about it, it was easy to relate it to something I have experienced. Even if a poncho in the desert is not a house.Simply, Dave
*Rich,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*I love walking through the newest, toniest neighborhood here in Suffern, New York. Tree trunks the size of a ford pickup are lined up waiting to be taken away after the excavations. All the latest materials are used: engineered lumber; OSB; vinyl siding; Tyvek wrap and the hundreds of square yards of fiberglass that it takes to insulate a house of more then 7,000 square feet with market values starting at $500,000.A recent snowfall left a blanket of 6 inches on the rooftop of these testaments to modern construction technique. In a temperature of 30 degrees, the water was melting off the roofs. At the end of two days, the gable tops were showing their 3O-year-guaranteed-roofing material. The next day, 30% of the roof was exposed even though the temperature hadn't gone above freezing once.Where is this heat coming from? Anyway, a couple of years ago I read a post on a bulletin board long since gone from a guy who stated that if you want to keep the heat in a pot, you put the top on. Now it was oversimplified, surely, but I kept reading and sure enough I was convinced by a very logical arguement. The gentleman was helpful in explaining techniques and materials to any and everyone who asked. I did as he said, sealed up holes, removed many square feet of fiberglass batts and put cellulose in my attic and helped a friend do the same. My heating bills are in half, my house is no longer too dry in winter and we save a pile when we have to turn on the AC in the summer.I would like to thank Freddy Lu, FredL, or whatever alias he has now and it pains me to read personal attacks such as are exposed here.
*pybas,Grab a hankie, dry your eyes, and wipe your nose. FredL dishes it out, he can certainly take it.John
*...pybas...good points... what makes you think that anyone disagrees with sealing the top.??..all of the techniques described have that in common, seal the top, seal the ducts, .. put the insulation in the attic and don't let it get bypassed by air leaks from the conditioned envelope.....some think and espouse that if you vent your roof , you're in the category of ignoramus and a danger to your customer... that's where the disagreement comes from........some also espouse that if you have to add humidity to the structure, as all the studies and standards show, that the structure is broken... when there is the distinct possibility that in fact the structure has controlled the migration of vapor from outside sources and now needs help in bringing the RH back up....all of these things don't have to be mutually exclusive...FredL has done excellent work.. and he has helped many, many people,... so have a lot of others.. and they don't have to be labeled as incompetent by FredL if they happen to disagree.....so, its good that FredL helped you with your situation, and its good to have friends that come to your aid when being criticized....my only point in these discourses is to point out that intelligent people with a lot of experience differ on some of these conclusions and techniques for dealing with them..I think it's a big world and room for many different methods, which , if well thought out and executed, will make the homes we live in better...b IMHO
*pybas,I have been reading these discussions closely for over a year now. There is no doubt in my mind that sealing the attic floor is the most important thing you can do to lower your heating bill, etc. No one on this board has ever said otherwise! But it is amazing how often the "experts" fail to mention it when someone comes in asking for advice. Way too busy agruing about vents!Rich Beckman
*Gents,OK, I agree, it takes two to tango.I've been away from the boards for a while...regards and cheers,pybas
*
Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato