Lately I have been reading that one carpenter is more efficient than 2.
Before I always heard that 2 got more done than one.
If one is more efficient is it more cost effective?
Helpers get paid less and really only have to do 1/2 or less of the work the lead man does.
Yes working with a helper does take more planning, and organization.
For instance on my latest job. A renovation I had to do some calculating and thinking so I planned that while my helper cleaned up the debris I did that. Also I leave him to do simple things while I do the running around, and I finish up work while he puts tools away at the end of the day.
When I am on a roof it is quicker for him to get me stuff than for me to climb up and down. Also one of the first things I teach is efficient thinking. You can throw something faster than you can climb a ladder. Throw it flat and controlled.
I still think having a helper gets more done for the same cost or costs less. Am I wronge? Maybe it depends on the job?
Replies
I think it depends on the job. If you're spending time trying to keep your helper busy. it's a waste of your time. I think two guys who know what they're doing and work well together are the most productive, given the proper job size.
You are not wrong but every job and situation is different.
In new work, framing, I found that very few jobs needed two people. It was my experience, discovered through time trials, that two people actually wasted a substantial amount of time.
Of course, the above statement is predicated on sound thinking and techniques. If you've been groomed to always have a helper near you, it's darn near impossible to reteach the principles and techniques that are required to flourish going solo.
I've had the pleasure of working with guys who kept themselves busy but were always right there when I needed a hand. I hope I did as well for them. Two people working as a team will always outwork two individuals.
the way I work- 2 people is highly in-efficient.
i have struggled with this for over 20 years now
looked at what seems like every possible way-and as close as I can figure-on average a helper saves me between 1 and 2 hours a day
Based on how I bill-the helper is then really only a break even proposition for me at best
but- I have to admidt- they can be a huge energy savers- physically
but-also huge mental energy sinks-keeping them busy,out of trouble,will they show up when you are COUNTING on them that day, what will they break etc.
in the end- I would rather stay in shape and work solo-for me- it's more fun AND more profitable, and less stress etc.
stephen
I figure a helper saves me 4-6 hours a day depending on the job. Although I have not dome actual counts. Maybe I am wasting more time explaining then I realize.I am trying to use him effectively. I start work as he gets tools out, He cleans up and outs tools away at end of day as I finish up. One thing I am bad for is trying to teach them. I want them to learn so I waste time. My current helper will only be with me for a little over a year then he is going back to school. So really I should treat him like a new guy and just keep getting him to do that stuff.My last helper left after 2.5 years and he was really getting helpful, we had worked together long enough he knew what to do.
Your mistake is "I want them to learn". Actually, it's not wrong to want them to learn, but it is not wise to teach the wrong candidate...so, the actual mistake isn't wanting them to learn, but it started in your hiring process. You can fix your thinking and it really isn't that hard. I would suggest this book: "First, Break All The Rules". It is a management book that explores how all the worlds best managers go about their daily business. Hiring the "right" people for the intended job is one of their keys. I don't envy anyone dealing with general remodeling and trying to teach rookies and laborers how to intergrate. It's a horribly hard task and just about when you get a guy grooving...he's off to greener pastures. One way to combat this is to set up a 6 yr apprenticeship with scheduled pay increases. That was the thing that worked best for me after toiling a couple decades in the framing business. It finally stabilized my crew.
Yeah I got the wronge man to train.
Thought I had the right one before he was with me 2.5 years, got increases and still left, just when getting good.Also I live in a small town so not a lot of people to choose from.
Depending again on the tasks going on, I find 1 or 3 to be the best. One guy should be able to cut and tote for 2 siding nailers or even shinglers.
But the tasks, and people muck up the formula unless it is repeat worj with a well thought out plan.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
Different trade, maybe a different lesson ....
I had a helper for a few months, and suddenly I began to understand some of my earlier work experiences.
You see, the helper didn't know enough -yet- to actually be able to do anything useful on his own. What I suddenly learned when I became the 'lead' is that the helper is - like a Rush Limbaugh listener - there to make the head guy look good.
For example, for the occasional task where I needed three hands, there he was. When he could fetch tools and parts while I remained in the crawl, in the attic, on the ladder ... he made my work much more efficient and faster.
Later, when the guy had learned a few things, both our roles changed. Now HE did the actual work, while I was largely dedicated to making everything ready for him to work. Prep, planning, etc., all fell on me. If hr was at a loss for what to do next, it was because I had dropped the ball.
It's not a question of man-hours; it's a question of leadership and teamwork. Again, I'm reminded of the 1969 Cubs; they packed the All-Star team, yet failed to win the pennant - because they were 9 individuals, rather than 1 team.
In a crude sense, 2 men working together ought to be able to do triple the work of one guy alone. There lies the key: organization. You don't solve a problem by throwing either money or people at it.
Look at what slows you down on a job. Simply having furniture and materials in the way is a productivity killer. Plenty of time is lost due to trash, tear down/set-up, trips to a truck parked a block away. Do you really need to have the drywall stored on site, cluttering every room, a month before the rockers come?
There's also the foolishness of 'toughing it out.' One job didn't bother constructing even temporary stairs (or a ramp) until the job was nearly complete. With the grade cleared back, this meant months of using a short ladder to climb into the 'grade level' entrance.
Another job had delays in receiving some doors and a window - at this time of year! Not being able to 'condition' the space (heck, even just blocking the wind off the mountain!) seriously reduced everyone's productivity. Those three sheets (not used to temporarily close the openings) were the most expensive plywood the GC never bought.
"...the helper is - like a Rush Limbaugh listener - there to make the head guy look good."Since when could ANYBODY make Rush Limbaugh look good?Oops! Now it's off to the Woodshed!AitchKay
Actually Rush Limbaugh is an accomplished entertainer that specializes in politics but this isn't the place for that. I would suggest taking up this discussion over in the thewoodshedtavern.com site which apparently is a private site that is attempting to help out the Tavern here by accepting controversal pol (and other) topics. As you know, there has been a general eruption asking that pol topics be banned so I would think that BT would be glad to be rid of these type topics. Just trying to be helpful.
Actually Jim, we can no longer discuss politics!
LOL! What are yall talking about in there now....sewing?
I not doing too much of anything.
Not in the Tavern, but it's OK to sneak it in up here
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Actually Jim, we can no longer discuss politics!"I don't spend enough time to notice, but is that really true?!
More or less, mostly less!
How the hell are you and I supposed to butt heads?!!Sheesh!Just ain't the same.
Tell me about it.
Kinda like what I said myself: "Oops! Now it's off to the Woodshed!", only more words.AitchKay
You never get as much done as you planned
and your always broke. So, I say work hard and have a helper if you want company
(and to save your back) or work hard and enjoy the silence.
re:
Again, I'm reminded of the 1969 Cubs; they packed the All-Star team, yet failed to win the pennant - because they were 9 individuals, rather than 1 team.
Hey now,
That had a lot more to do with Leo Derocher (sp?) burning out the team in the hot summer sun than any of the player's egos.
Day games are the reason why the Cubs will never win a pennant when the rest of the league plays nights. July and August in Chicago is often comparable to Houston or Nawlins for heat and humidity.
Delighted to hear that someone remembers Leo!
Yes, those were the years when baseball was dominated by teams from nice, dry, cool places like St. Louis.
re:
Yes, those were the years when baseball was dominated by teams from nice, dry, cool places like St. Louis.
Who mostly played night baseball, which was the original point. Leo "Have another slitz" Derocher just burned out that team by refusing to rest his regulars, despite the temp on the field often exceeding 120 degrees.
depends on the job. Several things are most efficient with three
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
When doing finish I like to work alone. If there is a long piece of crown going up and somebody is handy I will ask for help,other wise it is a few nails in th wall to hold it up while I work it into place.A few weeks ago I was on this one job, condo unit. The forman insited that two carpenters do base, I cut the other installed. He wasn't quite as fussy as me, although paint grade, 6 inch MDF speed base, some of the copes were off because of flared dry wall corners. I would have recut the joint, he left them to be caulked by the painters, Yes in the end every thing looks fine and dandy, but having open joints for every body to see is not me.
"Shawdow boxing the appoclipse and wandering the land"
Wier/Barlow
Generally yes, you get more done with a helper, but like the others have been saying, it's subjective to the job. Of course, it depends on the helper too.
I've read that with each additional member to a crew the efficiency level drops. Some jobs obviously can't be done by one person or the time frame doesn't allow it. Seems to me that you have to decide on the parameters of time, money allowances, and efficient use of man power per the job.
Most jobs have to get done on a certain schedule and the inefficiency is just part of it that the industry pays for. I worked next to a guy who could frame a house on the same schedule as me and two guys, us working 5 days a week while he worked seven days a week and his bro helping on weekends. He was more efficient than me and two guys. Most crews had trouble keeping up with the schedule 5 days a week. How many are out there who can or want to do his kind of schedule?
That lone ranger was too extreme but I can understand why he did it. He probably has the same attitude as Haz when it comes to employees. I was there myself for many years and just put up with the employees. Then, one day, I hooked up with Forest, another framer that was fed up with employees. We quickly found that we had the same style and abilities and neither of us wanted employees. So, we started frami ng houses with just the two of us. He worked on one side of the house and I worked on the other. The only time we interacted was at break and lunch. Occasionally, when the situation called for it, we worked together (setting trusses, raising walls). The result: we routinely kept pace with much larger crews. We averaged about 1000 sf per week of custom homes. To demonstrate how INNEFFICIENT too many carpenters are, I'll tell this story. We started a split level. The next day, a new crew arrived in the sub and started a similar house. It was a union crew (newly signed up with the union) and they came in like gangbusters with TEN (10) men! I'll make a long story short. We finished our house and used two more days than they did. To put it into hours, I think we had a total of 240 hours in the house. They had 1000. Obviously, their skill level was significantly lower than ours. They bankrupted themselves on their first union job LOL! Ironically, Forest and I had to often take extra long breaks and lunch hours to hide the true amount of hours that we were putting in on the houses we framed. If we didn't, the builders would have figured our take and paid us less.
It depends, of course.
But the other thing is where you draw the line to limit your examination of efficiency.
If you're just talking about man hours, that's one thing. However, there are always externalities that come into play which affect the total, real-world equation.
For instance, if someone is paying 8 percent on a home equity line of credit to finance the addition I'm building, getting the job done most "efficiently" with one man may cost the client more money than getting it done "inefficiently" with four.
Or, if I've gutted the only kitchen in a woman's home and she's still living in the unit, "efficiency" is an extremely relative term.
k
Good point K. In the business world they take into account things like "net present value" and "weighted average cost of capital" when deciding what the real cost of things are. It's all over my head, but my MBA wife knows such things.I worked for a guy for quite a few years who's mantra seemed to be "we have to show progress". No matter the cost, we would do crazily inefficient things to "show progress" when it was deemed important for client satisfaction.I think for most things in a general remodeling situation one person is the most cost-efficient. But if you want to get anything done in a timely fashion, you need more than one.Steve
I have often commented here in various threads at BT about my observations of the Amish carpenter crews that dominate residential construction in the NE quadrant of IN. We lived there for almost 20 years and I took every opportunity I could to see, up close, how they went about their work.
Somehow or other, they must learn about the efficiency of doing things solo at an early age. You can regularly see young boys on jobsites, but one per, not a couple or a small group. The kid's job is to keep picking up things. Anything loose, like even stray nails, small 1" offcuts, anything to keep busy and keep moving.
They'll clear a wooded lot before bringing in the excavator, by having an "English" driver and his van, hauling a horse trailer behind, drop off two young guys and their gear, a twelve year old boy, and a big snorting belgian draft horse, complete with harness and dragging tackle. The kid's job is as horse drover, which he manages by sitting up top without a saddle, his legs spread wide, because that belgian is a biggie. The chainsaws never seem to stop, and neither does the horse and his boss.
Doing framing or trimming, a crew breaks down into singles and everyone seems to know exactly what to do. Split up, shake out, and let's get it done. Everyone can operate the telehandler, and anyone does if needed. Working solo, using any combination of quickly nailed-up legs, sticks, jacks, or beams, I've watched these guys get large stuff like beams and columns up, set, and fixed, without ever having to go and get help.
When they know that tomorrow will be a day requiring maybe a lot of repetitive low-stress actions, or something like shingle tossing, grampa Jonah or old uncle Jeb will be in the van when they unload at 15 before work start. He'll do the thing, whatever it is, that someone decided last night requires either a good head and little horsepower, like being the ground hook for those 327 different trusses for this monster hipped thing that will get set using the Lull, or a no brainer like nailing up all those long rows of blocking down under the mainfloor frame.
At lunchtime, they sit quietly, eating and drinking, while reading their bibles and studying the plans. I recall short midmorning breaks to eat a little and sip a drink, maybe 7 or 8 minutes, and no afternoon breaks. When we lived there, people still smoked in public and in restaurants and bars, so smoking went on at jobsites, but it did not slow anything down.
Each guy acted as his own "cut man," keeping whatever skilsaw, chopsaw, or small tablesaw handy, to make his cuts as close to the work as possible. If the work is up high and outside, that sawstand is up on the picks or platforms with the worker. You don't ever see someone standing next to a saw, idle, waiting for someone up above to call down a number, nor do you see the high guy waiting for mister cut to make the whack and hand it up.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Edited 11/22/2009 8:57 am ET by Gene_Davis
In my opinion & experience:
Two people who work well together, with one as "lead" and one as "helper" can get a LOT done.
Two people, both trying to be "lead" can waste lots of time.
Two people, with the Homeowner as helper, takes WAY longer!
Depends on the task and how much or little the two guys know.
For example when I was running a roofing crew I always had guys work in pairs and tried to keep an even number on the crew. When nailing shingles off one guy sat up roof with the bundles and a box of nail coils, the other guy ran the gun. The gunner would set his hand and the gun in place to space the shingle and the uproof guy would throw a shingle into place with the right orientation then it would get nailed off then the gunner would reset his hand... little wasted motion a very very fast. I would run 2,4,or 6 guys like this and if I needed caps cut the other guy would be doing cleanup and so on. The same guys often paired off and we could rock and roll and still produce a high quality product.
On framing you really need two framers and not one guy and a helper to be efficient.
Trim... a helper is handy but again only if they know how to measure correctly and cut correctly. Same with siding.
I think really how 'helpful' a helper is depends on if they are smart enough to be trusted with part of the task being done otherwise if they are just a helper monkey that must constantly be told what to do and where to be then their help is very minimal and could even be a drain on the leader.
-Day
I can tell you that if you are framing a house a 3 man crew is the most efficent way to build.. The owner, a lead carpenter, and a grunt..
The idea is that if the lead carpenter learns quickly you can split the crew when you have more than one house to frame. Or lay off just grunts if the work isn't there.. Te skilled person who's worth the money you can hang onto them as long as possible..
I beg to doffer with you. # men crew is innefficient.
Seven is the absolute best. Then the forman, me, can spend time laying out and gettin' after them to work harder.
Blue, I will stack my hours on most framing jobs with anyone. It boils down to what drives the forman to push!!!
I don't agree about needing to push anyone. Speed is about smarts and efficiency....not bullrushing. Speed is about eliminating extra steps. Speed is about not double handling ANYTHING. With seven guys and a dedicated layout man, you double handled EVERYTHING! I would take the bet (two framers vs seven framers) EVERY TIME and I would bet ALL my milkbones. The measure would be manhours.
Edited 11/22/2009 2:41 pm ET by jimAKAblue
don't agree about needing to push anyone. Speed is about smarts and efficiency....not bullrushing. Speed is about eliminating extra steps. Speed is about not double handling ANYTHING>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jim, I played a lot of basketball in my younger days. I always treated a crew like a team. Everything you do effexts everyone else.
Trust me, if you push people they perform, in fact it can suprise people.
The best way I found was to get the layout done and pick a wall to build. Balls to the wall, try to embaress people that were just building walls. It's amazing how fast it picks up.
Typically, I try to get things laid out ahead, because with 6 guys, layout person has to perform to keep ahead.
We have tried many many different crew sizes and processes. We found that 7 was an efficient number with houses over 2500 sq. ft. The hour numbers don't lie. That is the numbers that are averaged out, to determine efficiency of the different crews.
I am not disagreeeing that 2 man crews can be effective, because I know they can. The problem is you were not taking advantage of the efficiencies of multiple crews, with increase in income. We were going through 3 skids of coil nails for our hITACHI COIL NAILORS. We were building 100000+ square feet a year. In fact the last I talked to my former crew, they were expecting to exceed the average. The problem is the price for framing had dropped. (no pay raises this year) Everyone is just happy to be working, and keeping there heads down and producing. Amazing how a recession does that!
I would not want to argue as you guys probably are better framers then me. When i framed on a high ball out fit we were always between 3 and 8 guys. Best was around 5 or 6. After i learned i was the lay out man. My job was to make sure no one else had to think. Pretty intense to keep ahead of 4 guys. One layout man, one or 2 helpers, 2 good carpenters that could figure out anything without stopping, One guy , The oldest or slowest cutting headers, trimmers, etc.. The crew varied but we normally framed, sheathed, set doors and windows, built kitchen drops, basement stairs, Did soffits, on a average Colonial in 5 to 7 days depending on crew.. The biggest time saver was to frame one house then go to the same plan. But that does not happen anymore.. I would be standing around scratching my head with these cut up houses now. Now i just work by myself.
I would be standing around scratching my head with these cut up houses now>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Trust me, the customs of today are a puzzle. I wouldn't even attempt a custom with 2 guys. Not unless it was my work for a long period.
4 years ago we took over a job for a contractor that had 6 guys on a crew. The homebuilder found the framer in a closet babling with the white stuff coming out his nose.
Boss made out well on that job. To fix it, he just charged him his original bid. Guy paid it and hired anouther idiot on his next house. Last time I was looking around, it was still unfinished!!
Agreed, and we have an archy here that HATES roofers I think. Nothing but cut up and funky valleys.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
I wish I had some pictures of the stupid roof planes we have seen. I am all for a good looking roof, but there are limits to taste.
I think that line was crossed starting in 2003 on a regular basis around here.
Shoot, we even have massive quanity of snow to deal with, and still the arch don't want to take that into account.
I actually think that if we can all survive, maybe this recession wasn't a bad thing. It seems to have stopped the big stupid houses. Hopefully forever!!!
Speaking of stupid, how many kitchens does a house need? I think 3 in a single family is over the top!
Edited 11/22/2009 7:11 pm ET by frammer52
Most of our experience was with cut up customs. Two guys will move through a cut up and never miss a beat. If you try to put too many guys in the cutup jobs, everyone tends to bull rush the walls leaving far too much ladder work. We used to be able to do two story with a walkout basement and never need a ladder until the last half of the last day. We only needed that to finish nailing a few corner boards that couldn't be nailed from the top.
Time for "Boogerin' with Blue- Part II"? And what became of the original, was it lost between WebX and Dispero? ....... was a great thread.
"There can be no doubt that Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the state…Socialism is in its essence an attack not only on British enterprise, but upon the right of ordinary men and women to breathe freely without having a harsh, clammy, clumsy tyrannical hand clasped across their mouth and nostrils" -Winston Churchill
Edited 11/22/2009 11:38 pm by jc21
It got lost in the transition. I think the words remained but the pics dissappeared. Since Im not in the field anymore, there never will be a boogerin' II. Thanks for the kudos. See ya over at thewoodshedtavern dot com?
"Best was around 5 or 6.After i learned i was the lay out man.My job was to make sure no one else had to think."In my system, everyone was their own layout man and they all had to think. I never laid out a wall for anyone and no one laid out a wall for me. It's really the best system but I'd have to show you rather than talk about it. Lets not forget that I had at least 15 years of doing it the way you and frammer did it. I was the layout guy in my third year of my apprenticeship so I really do have both systems down pat. I would never, ever go back to having a layout guy.
I've got to agree with you about that Blue,
efficent crews don't double handle anything when loads are dropped by the telehandler it's the correct number of studs plassed where they will be most efficent..
That 3 man crew that frames a 2300 sq.ft. 2 story house in 4.25 days doesn't even lay things out!
They know the interior wall goes along that seam in the plywood and the stairs start at that mark on the plywood etc.. I almost never saw a tape measure in use or a level. two by fours would be tossed without looking and caught and put into place with one swift motion..
Frency, if that was true, they were mass producing homes. I and a small crew can do the same or better times wise when we continually build the same home..
Customs is where the problems start with small crews. When you get over 3k sq ft, small crews, even weith the giterdone attiytude have trouble finishing homes in a reasonable timeframe.
That being said, myself and 2 others, all or which were forman later, were able to put aq 7k sq ft house in less than a month. Help came on the roof. When you have a boom truch setting trusses for a full day, it is a large roof. 800 trusses and pieces!
7000 sq ft with four guys is extremely good time. Our rate of production with Forrest and I was 7466 every two months. That didn't include any help on the roof but we did bring in a crane with operator for 2-3 hours per house. We also used to take extremely long breaks...an hour for coffee...sometimes two hours for lunch. The least we took was 2 hours total per day. To explain how efficient we were, I'll tell you this story. The lumber sales guy used to visit us almost every other day. One day he says: "Can you explain to me why I never see you working yet the house gets built as fast, or faster, than any other crew in the sub?" He went on: "And...how come every other crew in the sub has to order extra lumber and you guys never need any? In fact, there is always a large pile left over?" End of story. Does anyone see a pattern here? Both Forrest and I were actually quite lazy and we minimized our effort in every step of the day. Since we stocked our own walls and floors, we NEVER carried extra lumber or wasted anything. There was never a bullrush but we both kept a constant pace while we worked. We never raced each other but instead we both worked at our own pace. We both had different styles but ultimately, it all looked the same when we were done. We didn't share tools. I think the only tool we shared was my 16# sledge for knocking the t and g in. If we were on a job that required a generator, we each had our own. At that time, I framed using my T160 pancake compressor which was plugged into my 5k honda generator. He used a rollair pancake plugged into his own 5k honda generator. We never wrestled these things off our trucks. We each could work independently. If I went home at noon, I just wrapped up my stuff and waved goodbye. If Forrest could clone himself, I'm not sure that the three of us would have been as efficient unless we were working on much larger homes...big enough to spread out and not bump into each other.
You 2 were the exception not the rule.
The advantage to having a larger crew is the crews production wasn't affected much with time off.
My boss like three crews even though he is at 2 right now, something to do with recession??
With 3 crews he spent very little time with a tool belt on. In fact for a while I teased him about being semi retired.
With 6 or so homebuilders calling wanting houses framed we were busy 53 weeks a year. The guys have told me, even during ths slow down they have only had 2 weeks off in 2 years. The difference is they are framing apartments now. Before we only framed one complex a year, now it more like 4 or 5, from what is said.
A 2 man crew can be efficient, the problem is as a business owner, you are minimizing your earnings.
"A 2 man crew can be efficient, the problem is as a business owner, you are minimizing your earnings."I wholeheartedly agree. The benefit was an enjoyable work experience. The cost was dollars.
They framed for 5 years and only had about 5 designs they built. What's more they built in the neighborhood they lived in so when the noise restrictions lifted at 7:00 they had everything in place and started to nail.. at 7:00 when they went back on they stopped.. they ate lunch with one hand and built with the other..
On the other hand when I sold them their telehandler they had less than $100 in their bank account and yet they paid off that telehandler ($85,000) in side of a year and bought 3 new trucks.. I suspect they were making around $700,000 a year.. Divide that 3 ways and you can see why they focused so intently on the job and making speed..
Custom building does take a lot more time and doesn't pay that much better..
Some of the barns they build around here on the lake actaully take over a year to frame.. My favorite was a 15,000+ sq.ft. monster that I sold not one but 2 telehandlers on.. (both the framer and the mason) The roof was done with a nice archetectual shingle and the owner took one look at it and decided to go with a Slate roof instead.. 1.1 million according to the contractor just for the roof.
Cool place! When you walked in lights went on ahead of you and turned out behind you automatically. The utlitiy room looked like Launch control for the space shuttle. Not one but 2 generators.. one on natural gas and one with 1000 gallons of diesel. There were 4 panels just for the wiring plus about 10 panels to control all the automated stuff. 4 boilers and three really large A/C units.
They had 22 trim and finish carpenters working for over a year to do all the interior work plus you wouldn't believe the level of carvings and trim in the place.. The owner ordered and paid for 2 custom crystal 72 inch chandelers but felt they weren't imposing enough and replaced them with 84 inch units.. the 2 chandlers would up as Garage lights. (Yeh, $45,000 + dollars for garage lights) my best guess for the cost of the building (not the land etc) is 22 million.
Most new homes being built in the last 7-10 years, in this are, were semi custom, and full custom.
I disagree with you on the amount of money that one can make, should if a framer was running a real business, make the same, whether it is a custom of a repeatable tract home.
When in business, people should base their bids on hourly charges. When you don't, that is when customs don't pay as well.
I agree you can make good money framing the same design over and over, but the problem there is, you can only do so well. To make more, you have to hire more people and or go to the custom market.
Forklifts are great timesaver and backsaver, but it is very hard to justify if you are moving them around town.
By the way, I can't see a framer grossing 700k a year with 3 people. If that were true, blue and I would be very wealthy today.
Well moving them around isn't terribly expensive.
First if you can road drive it within about 1/2 hour or so it cost sa little diesel and some time..
If it's further than that around here it typically costs about $100 a move or so.. I had one guy who charged $125 but he had a fuel tank on his truck that he would refill the telehandler so it was full when it arrived at the next job. His price for that fuel was reasonable as well. I think he made a dime a gallon.
The framer I spoke about worked for only three developers the whole time. The pay for framing was about $12,000 per so assuming 60 houses per year that's over $70,000 He got his choice of homes because the developers gained over a week per home on his framing.. Time is money!
If you drive into the eastern Suburb of Woodbury you'll see his work. Yeh a few of those homes are custom made, most aren't. We're talking about tract homes.. Not the Tiaj Mahaal. 1/3 to 1/4 acre plots 3 bedroom 2 car garage about 2500 sq.ft. max.
I know a job for you if that is all you would charge to move one. Buy a truck and trailor and move to Syracuse NY. Minimum charge is 200!
That rate is pretty well set by the dealers.. One of the incentives we offer is to back haul a telehandler in the 7 county metro area for $100. Our trucks are out delivering forklifts and were coming back empty most of the time so on a back haul we'd pick up $100.
The kicker is that you get the Cat dealer to haul Cats and Ingersol Rand dealer to back haul IR's. Off brands it's time and mileage. (seldom over $150 though)..
Try contacting excavator companies and other dirt equipment contractors for a better rate..
Try contacting excavator companies and other dirt equipment contractors for a better rate.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
These are the people who transport them.
Lack of competition!
Since the dealers back haul the telehandlers for $100 around here. Excavator companies etc. are forced to charge less in order to offset some of the back haul costs..
See dealers are pretty savy about those sorts of things.. None have ever lost a dime in transporting them and we gained a lot of repair business which is where the real profit in selling telehandlers.
As for the big houses being where the real profits are at, Again I refer to my decades of experiance here and can tell you that frammers doing those mega houses don't make as much money as the tract home builders.. Actaully the most profits come from building apartments and condo Units.. Boring and you need to be bondable which few are. But that's where the real money comes from..
The average framming price for a condo unit is about $8.00 a sq.ft. the average price for the most cut up complex mega home is about $12.00
You're likely to spend the same time framming each one.. with a apartment or condo the first unit or two you lose money and then start to pick up speed as you repaet the same basic units over and over and over again..
At the end of a year of Framming mega sized homes or mega sized apartments you are likely to a at least $250,000 more in your pocket framming those boring azzed apartments even at the lower price per square foot.
Awful high numbers frenchy.
Absolutly! a handfull of little ramblers were built for around $5.50 a sq.ft. but it took crews as long as 3 weeks to frame little 1100 sq.ft bungalows.
Don't forget I took credit apps from everyone I sold or rented equipment to.. thousands of contractors over the years.. My credit managers confirmed everything with me since effectively I was on the hook for any piece of equipment I sent out..
If there were lies or exagerations at all they didn't get equipment from me.
Okay....let me get this straight. Your locality had crews that were putting in three weeks work for a total pay of $6,050. And...you had builders that were paying out over $42,000 for the same three week period.And that builder wasn't shopping? !!!!Lets see...if I was a developer and I knew I could get a crew to work for 2k per week, I think I would choose that instead of the 14k crew. I base that decision on the cost of capital. I'd much rather waste three weeks of carrying costs, rather than pony up 12k just to avoid a couple hundred dollars of carrying costs. Maybe I could make it as a developer! Things are looking up.
That's correct.. they got what they paid for.. the low dollar builders were part timers and farm hands looking for some extra cash. None had licenses or insurance or anything.. (you can frame on a contractors license here)..
To get the condo's and apartment jobs the frammers had to be licensed bonded and insured plus had to be a union contractor.
To get the high dollar custom home the frammers had to be well established insured and a good reputation..
There is no way the low dollar guys could do either of the other jobs. The big union crews made more money because their costs were higher.. Those are the guys I sold multiple telehandlers and cranes to.. One contractor purchased 2 1/2 million dollars worth of equipment from me in a 3 year period..
Are you sure about those numbers? I have a very hard time believing condos and apartments get framed for $8.00/ft.
You and me both. The $12 number is rather low for true customs also!
I know, i didn't even want to go there!
I was thinking more like 25-30 square foot. We never priced customs by the square foot, so I really can't figure. It just sounded exceptionally low!
Yes if customs worked out to 12/sqft and condos were 8, nobody would ever frame a house again!
Frammers all were bidding like crazy on the big customs so there was plenty of competition for them yet those same contractors couldn't get bonded or weren't union to get the apartments and condos complexes..
Interesting turn of events.
My helper up and quit on me so now I am a Lone carpenter.
Thinking I may try it for a-while.2 purchases to help were a irwin pistol grip clamp, the type that tighten with a pistol grip, one handed. And a Fat max tape measure. It has 11' standout ability.Had to cut a bunch of little plywood rectangles. So usually My helper helps to hold the jobsite saw in place and feed the sheets. I noticed 2 holes on each side that were perfect for screwing a 2x4 brace down to the ground. Worked like a charm. Need a better outfeed support though. These pieces were for gussets so they did not need to be perfect.I really do not think having a helper would have got much more done. He used to take about 20 to 30 mins to put away tools and cords I did it in less then 10 mins.Like I say I will try it for a while and see.
Here is a thread I posted on another forum recently on a solo stair rail install:http://www.contractortalk.com/f13/2x6-rail-install-68257/Lots of ways to make solo work easy.Cheers,Bass
The quick Grip is the clamp I bought. What is the other one? Which do you like better and why?As I am looking over what I do as a carpenter I realize 90% of it I can do myself. For those times when I need help. Things like lifting walls, Lifting Trusses, Concrete, maybe drywall because of the 12' sheets. I will get a hand for the day or sub it out.
I bought a lot of the quik grip clamps and then found out that for some work the quick grip doesn't have the holding power of a bar clamp so I use both.
I do a L O T by my lonesome, you just got to figure out ways to do it yourself. Concrete, trusses & really large tripane windows are a few of the things you need help with. But, most everything else you can usually find a way to do without. Work smart, There is usually a way. Clamps, Jigs, lifts ect. Good Luck.
If you've been around here as long as I have you'll remember those numbers from back in the 90's. In fact one contractor got well over $50.00 a square foot although I suspect there was a lot of stuff going on with regard that price.. ( he paid for the telehandler on that one job)..
Well let us know when apartments go for 8/ft again so we can all head there and get rich!
Can you get bonded for 5 million dollars? Are you a union contractor? then you can bid..
First one yes, second, can't legally require this.
I did apartments or townhouses or whatever you want to call them. I didn't get bonded and I didn't get $8 per foot. And I wasn't union. The union guys got paid the same as me.
Well Frana takes bids from whoever can meet those requirements.. The contractor I mentioned later went to Vegas and built a whole bunch of those houses.. Come on up and make a bid next time if that sounds attractive to you..
Sorry, I'm done with framing.
When I was posting here years ago the numbers I was reporting were significantly higher that other parts of the country.. I don't know why that why that would be unless it's because of the strength of the carpenters union around here..
That could be. The strong unions kept our prices high until the mid 80's. All residential pricing collapsed after the depression.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Are they still paying those prices?
I don't know. I've been out of touch with contractors for over 2 years now.. those few still left in the business (out of 3500+ contacts I used to have only 4 remain in the business) and most have survived by the skin of their teeth. Many by working outside their field..
Around here the multi family were the same though custom was 15, 20 and up. Times have changed...luckily I am no longer framing full timei though I think this next year I may be looking to fill some gaps.
The best I did with myself and three rookies was 40k per month. That would extend out to 480k +/-. We weren't using a telehandler then and we only worked an average of 35...maybe 38 hour weeks. We were scheduled for 8 hr days but there was always something stealing an hour or half a day. At that time, the three guys that were with me were in their apprenticeship with me. I might have been paying out 14 per hour for two of them an a little less ...probably 12 on the other. I never hooked up in a sub that would give me those type homes on a consistent basis. Even in that sub, the other crew got those moneymaker homes because he was a drinking buddy. I normally got the tougher cutup homes. All in all, I would say that the best money would be in the monster homes....providing that the contractor was smart enough to charge properly and collect LOL.
All in all, I would say that the best money would be in the monster homes....providing that the contractor was smart enough to charge properly and collect LOL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again proving my point to frenchy.
By the way, frenchies numbers are a little off>G< If it were that easy, we would be rich!
I don't know that Frenchy's numbers are correct or not. He might not know the whole story. It is my experience that the builders look at the sub's numbers too. After all, they are writing the checks. When they start writing checks to the subs and they get a sense that the sub is making "too" much money, they start shopping them and cut them down.
Yep
Following up on my post...If the crew grossed 700k per year working with only three guys (the owner and his two sons): 700k / 52 weeks = $13,46113,461 / 3 = 4,487.The builder would have to write a check that amounted to 4,487 for each man on the crew. Thats not impossible but in the area I came from they would quickly decide that they could find someone cheaper. It all depends on the relationship between the builder and the sub. If they are related in some way (friends, war buddies, blood brothers etc, then yes, it's possible.
Possible, not likely!
I would say "not likely" but the numbers are possible. If each crew member worked, on average, 12 hours a day x 7 days a week, the average rate would be $53 per hour which isn't impossible. The reality is though, that they probably had some rain days and might have taken a few days off (x mas and maybe even valentines day). I know a lot of people that have worked more than 84 hours per week on average...just not anyone in construction working out in the elements.
That was the going rate to frame that sized houses here in the Twin Cities during the boom years.. If you were a developer would you want someone who could do it in less than a week or someone who would do it in over 2 weeks?
So you try to get the best crews to work cheaper when the worse crews take more time? Now I understand why you aren't a developer..
"Now I understand why you aren't a developer.."Umm....Do you think maybe you are drawing some conclusions with a little lack of knowledge? Or, maybe, you know EVERYTHING? If you do, could you teach us how to learn everything too? I think that would be very helpful for all of us.
My experience 2-3 equally skilled is most efficient. That way each goes off and works independently then is available when an end-man is needed.
I have done some framing projects entirely alone. I also wasted my time assembeling wall framing standing up-one stud at a time.
The most inefficient use of labor is unskilled grunts who stand around to be available for the convenience of the carp.
Some one needs to train the newbies; but the culling of those who need to be told each move to make needs to take place on someone elses dime or at junior college.
I've watched thousands of framing crews and can tell you that the fastest, best built homes are built with 3 man crews..
One frammer I sold a telehandler to could frame a 2300 Sq.ft. 2 story house and get it past inspection in 4.25 days. It was him and his 2 sons. I've seen 5& 6 man crews take 2 weeks + and still have corrections when the inspector came around..
The larger crews with the problems getting work done, is a management problem It is not the norm if you have the systems in place.
By the way, the only time we used a telehandler is when we were on apartments or a tract that allowed us to go one house to another.
Has to do with transportation of the machine. Is not cost effective if you are moving a machine every other day.
I don't agree about having that grunt. Forrest and I didn't have any grunts...for the most part. Occasionally, we'd try one and it always disrupted our system. Additionally, we would have to spend considerable time teaching and monitoring this "grunt". We finally decided that if we were going to hire someone, it would be a journeyman. There weren't any available though. The real solution is two of us and a machine. We certainly didn't need, nor want any grunts when we had a forklift. And, as you well know, the numbers will prove that the machine is a much better value than a grunt. The two of us didn't want grunts. Sometimes, we were forced to hire them just to have more bodies on site for the builder ( we had to placate new builders.) When we had one, we often would tell him to load up this or that and then go sit downstairs on a chair. They slowed everything down when they got near us. They put stuff in the way. They carried too much and it became a nuisance. There was everything bad about them and not much good. They ruined our rhythm.
Not everybody is a good grunt.. (in fact good ones are well worth extra pay) they quickly get into the rythem and know what to do next. They anticipate rather than be told.. They are also capable of picking up a nail gun or running a saw.
With 2 men on a crew using a telehandler you have the operator and then one guy trying to hold both ends of something while nailing it off.
Now a telehandler will replace one grunt and if the owner is smart teach him to use the telehandler so that he and the lead carpenter can really fly..
I only sold a few of the units with remote controls so I can't say if they replace the operator completely or not.
My observation from my DIY projects is that one carp working with about 1/5th of a helper would be about right. You need someone to hold the dumb end of the tape, grab the other end of a long board, etc. But trying to keep them busy all the time reduces your own productivity.
Two carpenters can do the work of 1.4 people when compared to a solo carpenter. That is the last stat. I saw on the matter.
This is my assistant now:
Hmmm...I don't see a single clamp, nor a 3rd Hand.AitchKay
In general, two carpenters of relatively equal experience and intelligence, working together as needed, can feed off each other and keep up a very good pace all day, accomplishing more than the same two guys working independently.
I'll agree that they can acomplish more in a day. But if two separate jobs take 8 hrs each, that's still 16 hours total. Just that it takes one guy two days.
no?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Two guys can lend each other a hand when it makes sense, work independently otherwise. They can get the 16 hours worth of work done in 14 hours, say.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
That sounds logical and in many cases it will be correct...assuming that there isn't a more economical method available if two guys are working together. When I framed with Forrest, we only occasionally worked on something together. 95% of our day, we worked independently. We teamed up during that other 5% because it was a necessary evil. If we hadn't, we would have taken longer. For instance: if a steel beam had to be set and it weighed 160#, we'd each grab one end and set it. If he was off that day and I had to set it alone, I could, but it probably would take me hours instead of three minutes.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
blue, reading through this thread- it seems obvious to me- that people who are bright and self motivated-------will probably work best alone. If i am motivated and absorbed in my task-what can another worker being present POSSIBLY do-other than get in my way,break my train of thought, misplace my tools-or otherwise make me less effective over all. you and forrest- i bet you had a financial arrangement in place- that made EACH of you motivated to work your best alone without anybody cracking the whip on the other despite what others might CLAIM- I think it is EXTREMELY unlikely that 2 employees are going to get done in 14 man hours TWICE as much as I would get done alone in 16 hours. I have demonstrated that wrong too many ways,too many times.- among other things- too much time is lost to socializing-without anybody even being aware of it.- watch a crew of smokers.- one guy stops and lights a cig.- next thing you know 3 OTHER guys decide they are entitled to cig.s also-and before you know it-5-10 minutes times 4 guys is gone out of production-repeat that several times a day-and then throw in a few conversations about football or whatever-
time gets lost very quicklyI think the O.P. is pretty smart-and apparently open minded.
he had one preconcieved notion about how much time a helper saved him-then a few days later ,working alone he began to realize the helper wasn't saving him that much time after all.
stephen
Stephen, our financial arrangement was very simple. It amounted to a series of joint ventures. Each job stood alone and pay was doled out based on actual costs and actual hours worked. It is a good model for a couple of framers that are both too independent to form a company. Heres how we calculated each job: We would take the amount received (the selling price) and subtract out all the hard costs i.e. nails, gas, etc. The balance was divided by the total amount of hours worked. Usually Forrest had more hours than me because I coached Soccer at the time and I usually left everyday at noon. So, sometimes, if it was a 300 hour house, he would get 200 hours pay and I would get 100 hours pay. There was never any balance of money left in an account or accumulated. We each paid our own GL insurance and WC. We each supplied our own tools including EVERYTHING.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Today I was setting 24' mono-chord trusses on the addition (16' X 24' porch) So I had a teenager come at 2:30 and help by 4:00 we were done. Then he cleaned up the site.First thing in the morning I had to go get the metal fop rthe roof. The metal place does not deliver. Then I put on some wall sheeting. (Usually sheet walls before I tilt them up but did not on this one case because of the crooked wall I was joining to.)After lunch I got ready and marked the plates, got the ladder scaffold ready and such.I figure I got as much done as if I had a helper for the whole day.I did find setting up the scaffold for putting on the plywood a pain with only 1 guy. I have done it myself before, just it is awkward. I need to get wheels so I can roll it around. I had to completely take it down, move it, and set it up again. With 2 guys we just carry it.
Working alone, on a wood job, I always found a way to quickly set up simple plank scaffolds. I can build a 4x8 wood deck scaffold easier than I can set up one set of metal scaffolds.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
I will start another topic about this
Good idea. Maybe you can start a lone carpenter tip thread too? If someone spurs my memory, I have tons.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Was on a Middle school job one year. I had a small foundation wall to set and pour, not much really. Another Caepenter and TWO helpers had another such wall to build across the slab from me. This "crew" wound up taking longer than me, so much so that I was called away to pour two other such walls, and come back and pour mine. THEN, the "crew was ready for their wall to be poured. I guess it depends on what kind of "crew" one has. These little walls were about 5' out to a pier, then 13' to another wall. About 30" high, with rebar to tie into a slab to be poured later. Like I said, not much work, about two hours tops to build. " Although I have the right to remain stupid, I try not to abuse that right"
But if two separate jobs take 8 hrs each, that's still 16 hours total. Just that it takes one guy two days. no?
There are numerous jobs which go easier and faster with one guy cutting and the other guy measuring, then fitting and fastening. Any carpentry which requires scaffolding, as an example.
Many union carpentry jobs are done by teams of two journeymen, about two thirds of all union work. Contractors wouldn't continue that practice if they believed it was less efficient than having their carpenters work alone.
A lot of it comes down to to keeping each other focused on the task and in motion. Small distractions disappear when two people work well together.
The psychology of teamwork is pretty simple. It just feels good to be part of something larger than oneself and to contribute to common goals.
Hey, I understand and concur.
Eliminate the negatives of a couple working together such as a one man task where two guys work on it-one's doing nothing. Lose the few other negs and work separately while working together and yes, you are absolutely right.
I haven't had the pleasure except in the rare case we teamed up on a large job. Miss it.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Apparently we have enough custom framers that competition forced a moderation in prices.
It seems that once a crew made a little money framing apartments and town houses. The first thing they wanted to do was get into interesting custom work. Once they lost a little money they went back to the tract houses and apartments..
Face it.. interesting work doesn't pay as well as boring work..
No competition, no breaks to waste time, no talking or chit chat, full concentration so work is better than with someone around watching or distracting you, yea I say let me work alone anytime...Oh, no money to split
And no one to call 911 when you fall off a ladder.
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in. --Theodore Roosevelt
Yep did that once. My helper caught my head before it hit concrete. Walked around the block got another ladder and went back up.