We all know a 2×4 is 1 1/2″ by 3 1/2″ reasoning being their sized before drying. But even at that when you want to get real precises they aren’t even that big. Than years ago 2 x 4s like those in my ballon framed house where/are actually 2×4.
Noticed enginerred lummber, curriusly the same thing happens as 1/2″ ply isn’t really a full 1/2″ any more, not that it has to have a pre-milled mesurment assosiated with it like kiln dried.
Discovred some of this after resumming a project I set aside 5yrs. ago in my basment (which if anything my stored stick lumber would be more swollen and still doesn’t messure true 1.5×3.5. and the sheet of 1/2 ply I picked up doesn’t match the old stuff I had in place already.
Got me thinking on a couple points;
1 Plenty of times I’ve picked up lummber from a box store it’s so water logged you try to write on it and water squeezes out, yet the dimentions are no more true to 1.5 x 3.5.
2 Guessing stick lumber corners are rounded only because you don’t really need the full corner for typical intended use of framing so the mill shaves it, keeps the debris for eng. lumber and save shipping weight.
So up for discussion, as it seems lumber measurements continue to decrease in true size, how far will they shave these dimensions? I mean sure a 1/16″ here and even after 100yrs a whole 1/2″ there on 2X4s can be dealt with but at some point there’s no getting around if you need a full 1″ you need a full 1″? How far will building codes let these numbers fudge? In fact does the building code even call for 2″x4″ with notation of acceptance as true at 1.5×3.5 with +/-?
Replies
Seems like some of these things are governed by building codes or maybe ASTM (I'm sure someone will be along soon to clarify). I know I've read that 1/2" plywood can still be considered 1/2" even if it is 15/32" so of course manufacturers take full advantage of this.
I used to cut pulpwood, and a nominal 8' stick had to measure 100". So they are shaving at both ends.
Makes it a real pain in the a ss when rabbeting shelves and such, in 3/4 or 1/2 plywood. The router bits are a true 3/4" or 1/2". Ever try to find a 23/32" or 7/16" router bit? I end up using a smaller bit and making a couple of passes, only way I can get the rabbets tight.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Edited 4/13/2009 12:20 am by Ted W.
not that i like to see 23/32 ply, but they do make bits for it..http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=4665
Thanks for the link. Bookmarked it and will order a couple on payday (whenever that is).
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Edited 4/13/2009 12:23 am by Ted W.
If your looking for a bargain grizzly sells a set with the three common ply sizes, don't know how bout the quality of grizzly bits, but certainly much cheaper.http://www.grizzly.com/products/Straight-Plywood-3-pc-Set-1-2-/H5559
Thanks egdc, the price is right so I'm going to go ahead and order the set. I'm sure they're not the highest quality, but I trust Grizzly for decent products. This way I'll have them on hand if I need them, and if they're pretty good quality I'll be glad I didn't pay 4 times as much for Rockler's bits. I'm not running a cabinet shop, just build a few simple ones on occasion.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work - TedsCarpentry.com
skip the lumberyard and buy from sawmills.. Direct!
first you get actual not demensional numbers, second the cost is so much dramtically lower you will be shocked..
I bought 50,000 + bd.ft. of hardwood like black walnut, cherry, white oak, maple, etc.. and paid $25,000.00
I calculated at one time if I'd paid retail for all that wood it would have cost me more than $750,000.
I bought 50,000 + bd.ft. of hardwood like black walnut, cherry, white oak, maple, etc.. and paid $25,000.00 I calculated at one time if I'd paid retail for all that wood it would have cost me more than $750,000.
That's a pretty good deal, but sawmills don't sell dimensional 2x4s or plywood. If we were furniture makin' that would be the place to go.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Edited 4/13/2009 12:21 am by Ted W.
I think he meant 75KHow can you understand God if you can't understand people? How can you understand people if you can't understand yourself?
I bet you he meant $750k.It's all part of the charm.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
That would be weird.How can you understand God if you can't understand people? How can you understand people if you can't understand yourself?
I wondered about that, but my copy/paste goes unedited. Let the chips fall where they may.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work - TedsCarpentry.com
And they will.How can you understand God if you can't understand people? How can you understand people if you can't understand yourself?
Love to! Closest sawmill is 40 miles of heavy traffic. DC suburb N. of city.Pete
Then go when traffic isn't heavy..
I got all my wood from a sawmill south and west of me which required me to go through both MPLS. & ST. Paul and then drive south by 30 miles or so.. it took me about an hour to do when I didn't go during rush hour.. Usually took me about 10 more minutes coming home because with the load of lumber hanging out the back of my pickup I had to lean forward just to keep the front tires on the ground! <grin>
"Love to! Closest sawmill is 40 miles of heavy traffic."So why are you complaining? :)
Nearest sawmill to me is probably 650 miles. Nearest hardwood mill is probably the one Frenchy goes to, a couple thousand miles.BruceT
I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of hardwood mills a lot closer than you give them credit for..
I'm also willing to bet that you aren't aware of them.. There's a sawmill in North Dakota that I know about. Out on the prairie where you don't see many trees..
Place looks like a typical farm with a barn and a few out buildings.. However he's got an old Ford Model A powered mill that he saws wood for locals and buys fallen trees from to produce spec wood.. Turns out there are a lot of trees in North Dakota in creek beds and behind bluffs etc..
If you'd really like to know contact woodmizer for a list of owners in your area.. Most of them all know others who may not own woodmizer equipment but still run sawmills.. Seems like every time there is a economic down turn someone buys the main parts of a mill and moves it to their place..
You'd be amazed at how many mills are in old barns etc..
Around here, you cannot pass a framing inspection with wood that is not grade stamped unless you have a licensed engineer sign off on both the drawings and the finished structure. That can add a lot of cost back in to the process. That cost may be worth it for a nice timber framed structure like your home, but is a pain if all you want to do is substitute for lumberyard framing material.The few remaining sawmills around here sell mainly cribbing material and hardwoods for use as finish materials.=====Zippy=====
Zippyzoom,
That has been debunked just recently.. You are ignoring the part of the building code which does allow building with nongraded wood.. Every building code has it in it..
I live in just such a community. Extremely tight enforcement of building regulations.. I looked it up chapter and verse. Bought the manual that gives stated values for a given wood and presented it to the building inspector..
Opened it up to the correct chapter and verse and made my case.. a few questions by the building inspector which I had anticipated and he approved my building permit..
So the answer is it's not allowed if you don't do your homework..
>>You are ignoring the part of the building code which does allow building with nongraded wood<<I'm not ignoring anything. When I asked the question at town hall of whether I could use non-graded wood, I was told by the code official (a state employee, we don't have our own) the information I posted earlier. It wasn't a big deal to me, so I didn't pursue the issue. If I decide to build with ungraded timbers in the future, I'll keep your comments in mind.=====Zippy=====
Did anyone ever tell you you should know the answer before you ask the question?
I'm a product of the 1960's I learned long ago to question authority..
Building inspectors authority rests in the building code. If the building code allows something (like using ungraded wood) then you can use it.. No you do not need a stamped set of plans to do so either.. What you need to know is enough information to establish your own credentials.. There are referance books available which will do so clearly since they are the source of information for engineers and such to get the data they use to stamp the plans..
However you clearly are uncomfortable doing the required research. So May I strongly suggest that you don't ever attempt to do so..
Please just accept the fact that the building code allows it and if you want there is chapter and verse for such a statement looked up by someone else. It's posted a week or so ago right here on this site..
Frenchy,As the one who posted your supposed "debunking" information, I have to disagree with you.IRC 2006 §R104.11 states that the code is not intended to prevent alternative materials in being used. It then states that the building official must make an interpretation on the sufficiency of the alternative material.Nowhere does the IRC state that you can use hardwood just because you feel it's sufficient. The supporting data that helped you in your quest could certainly help, but there is no way to know if other building officials will be as amenable as your building official was.On top of all that, there are a lot of places that don't use the IRC as their code book, Virginia being one of them. The entire state of Virginia is subject to the VA Uniform Statewide Building Code, which adopts a significant portion of the IRC. However there are some significant changes from the IRC.So, while it may seem that, because you had a favorable experience, others will have similar success, I think it is naive to assume that to be the case.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Please note I do not suggest for one minute that I felt the wood in question was sufficient.. I said I went to a great deal of effort to prove the wood in question was sufficient.
Going so far as to use the reference book used by engineers/ architects to determine strength of the wood in question..
You are correct if you state that it's not a matter of simply wanting something.. You must provide the data which authorizes the building inspector to use the alternative..
If you really get into it, there is a single acceptable source for such information, (the basis for approval) While it was extremely expensive for a book, it is the definative source book.
Frenchy,
You feel that the supporting data in the reference books is sufficient, but the chief building official may not feel the same way. Ultimately, what he says is how it is.
Secondly, as I already pointed out, many states and municipalities revise sections of the code (which can be completely legal, even expected, for them to do) and the provisions that allowed your building official to accept your construction materials may not be available to the myriad people you have recommended the sawmill approach to.
"If you really get into it, there is a single acceptable source for such information, (the basis for approval) While it was extremely expensive for a book, it is the definative source book."
Are we playing 20 questions?
Do you have a name for this "source"?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The authority of any building offical comes from a source. The source is the same one that also permits alternative building methods and materials as you pointed out.. Selective enforcement of rules is what makes lawyers rich and ruins the career of officals who resist what is written..
As for the tittle etc. of the referance manual I bought, It's stored up in my sealed attic.. I have have given it several times in the past right here. I can unseal the attic dig through all the boxes of books and find it if it's critical however we are speaking about a massive amount of work.
For that much effort on my part what is my reward?
Frenchy,I'm not talking about selective enforcement, I'm talking about following the rules as they are written in the code book. Alternative materials are inherently not following the prescriptive code, so there is no easy way to prescribe a method to allow or disallow alternative materials. You're always going to be subject to the interpretation of the code official.Your whole point is that one can save thousands using sawmill wood, yet now you want to sue the AHJ so they will allow you to use said wood? That seems counterproductive to me.Finally, it seems that every time you are asked to provide some technical data that is not just from your memory, the same answer about the books being up in the attic is given. I guess we'll just have to draw our own conclusions.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Reading one rule and claiming that is the only rule that applies is called selective enforcement..
Building inspectors may not be aware of the alternatives available to them.. In addition they often are dealing with people unsuited to the task involved or uninformed about all of the ramifications of doing it themselves.. As a result, Sometimes a building inspector should give people the wrong answer for their own good..
Well informed people will really have no such problem..
"Reading one rule and claiming that is the only rule that applies is called selective enforcement.."
That is exactly what you are doing. One section of the code book says that alternative materials can be used, but the material has to be in keeping with the remainder of the code. It seems that you are selectively claiming the part that supports you while ignoring the rest.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
But it does pricisly that.. It conforms to the remainder of the code and there is documentation to back it up.. Approved documentation, the source for all documentation already in the code!
I am not reading it out of context nor am I presuming anything..
You on the other hand presume that wood that is unstamped cannot be used which the code itself clearly refutes..
I will grant you that some building officals unaware of that provision in the code may be reluctant to approve.. However the same tact you should always approach any offical with the ability to cause trouble needs to be applied..
Jon if you are so reluctant then don't ever use unstamped wood (or buy yourself a stamp and stamp it yourself<grin>)
Mind you I'm not saying that everyone should use sawmill wood.. I'm saying that using sawmill wood is permitted and it's use can be safe and economical. It's economy does get reduced when the added labor involved is factored in, Unless like me you don't charge for your own labor .
Frenchy,I must say, I admire your persistence.All I will say is this:You are presuming that, because you were able to convince your building official, that others will have similar success. You are presuming that the codes that you are under are the same as others (not true), that the building official will be sufficiently convinced with your reference books (not always true), that the building official will not be concerned with leaving the grading of said wood up to an untrained, partial individual (not always true), and that sawmill wood is available and cost effective in that majority of the country (again, not always true).
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I am prepared to concede that not all locations have access to modestly priced wood.. (every place with a pallet mill will however)
I am also prepared to concede that some officials will be intransigent about the subject and then a determination should be made as to which battle needs to be fraught.
However all building codes have a source and since that source is the reference book which I referred to it's foolish to believe that it's somehow not acceptable..
Mind You I'm not the worlds expert on building science. While reading the UBC I found the reference book I refer to as the source for the data.. I checked several other building code standards and found that same book used as a reference..
Now I'm cheap.. (hopefully that's well established by now) so I looked at every single library and used book store I could for that book at something under the $100+ I wound up paying for it. I checked every single building department (INCLUDING MPLS & ST. PAUL)
However, every building code I inspected lists that book as a reference source..
Frenchy,
Do you (or have you ever, or do you expect ever to) make money selling and/or servicing sawmills?
k
yes or no, please...
Yes I did, for a while I sold a fair number of pieces of equipment to sawmills. Earned a bit of reputation for knowledge of their operation so I was also invited to aide salespeople who weren't really that familar with sawmill operation..
I'll admit I fantasize over my wood-mizer brochure every time it comes...
k
Frenchy continues to foreget--- he only has to argue over one house----and if the argument takes 6 years-well it's all entertainment to him.
but a builder can't afford to fight the same fight over and over and over on each and every project however- Frenchy makes a good point-- he has totally convinced me. Yesterday I needed to replace some bad roof decking----and I shunned the 3/4Plywood that was convienently at my nearby lumberyard--and instead drove 50 miles down to Amish country to a "local" mill where I could buy some hardwood locally produced. Fortuneately shellac dries really quick-- I was able to get all 6 sides of each board coated with multiple coats in only a few hours. we like to hand nail our shingles---- but the roofing nails were bouncing right off the 1/4 sawn oak----so I fired up the old compressor and got out the bostich---same result--- ended up predilling for screws---and luckilly remembered that drywallscrews are too brittle for this application---so I sent one of the guys to the lumberyard for some of those funky new coated deck screws-------
my question is-- was that the right screw to install Certainteed landmark shingles--- or should I have used hex head lag bolts?
stephen
I'd go for through bolts.. drill the holes, put the bolts in, and let your helper go to the other side up in the attic and put some washers and nuts on. Make sure he torques them to at least 73 lbs, or 94 if your using tri lams. But of course everyone knows this.
I think you are right----- I am planning to spend today looking for a blacksmith that can forge the hardware locally.
stephen
frankly I doubt you'll find any savings doing that.. mass production does have it's cost benefits especially when the field is filled with many competitors..
If you went to the trouble to predrill, you should have whittled oak pegs.
I would have used black locust.
Hazlett,
You needed to have pegged those boards sir.. Nailing into white oak is cause for rot.. the tannins that protect the wood from decay work in the opposite manner on white oak, black walnut, redwood, cedar and any other naturally decay resistant wood.. True if you selected silicone bronze or stainless steel that wouldn't be an issue. However, since those are extremely pricey your lowest cost would be to spend your evenings sitting around the fire and hand carving wooden pegs to drive in those boards.
By the way if you'd kept currant with this you'd realize that I've acknowledged your concerns earlier.. <grin>
LoL!
Hex bolts are .60 apiece now! I think I'd tear off the oak and burn in in the fireplace and lay the cheap osb.
You could do what our forefathers did, sit around the fire in the evenings and make wooden pegs.. the cost of a bd.ft. of white oak is .80 and one bd ft wil make thousands of wooden pegs which are decay resistant and will last as long as the shakes do..
I see more than a few old barns with the original shakes still held on by wooden pegs.. those barns may date from before the civil war!
Actually if you take slab wood the sawmill is likely to just hand you a board or two so your effective cost would be nil.
We all sit around our furnace or air conditioner and whittle too. My wife uses the Dyson to suck up the shavings.
I seem to recall you fought six years to get your permit?
The building permit actually took much longer.. However the issue had nothing to do with building material. Rather I had a city offical who was also a bidder on my property and resented my preventing him from buying the property. As result of that he put up every single obstical in his power to prevent me from getting a permit in the first place..
Once permission was granted to get a building permit it took the building inspector a nominal amount of time to approve my plans as submitted.. (about an hour as near as I can remember) Yes! the plans listed sawmill wood..
I am not sure you won on technical merit. Might have been you simply wore them down:) You have so much wood in yours that it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that it might work.
Brad
2 seperate issues.
My building inspector repeated the exact same line to me. That I needed an engineers stamp and sawmill wood was not acceptable.. I showed him the relavent lines in the building code and refered him to the manual for his confirmation that I was building to code (or better)
Nothing in the code prevents a person from overbuilding, code is merely the minimum..
Second Over building.. What prevents most people from overbuilding is cost.. When wood is priced as cheaply as it is at the sawmill it is simply too cheap to build to the minimum..
From sawmill to lumberyard there are as many as 9 differant hands that mark up the wood every time they handle it..
Now I'm not saying they don't contribute anything.. I'm saying that what they contribute I didn't need.. My way is not the easiest but it is nearly the cheapest..
My assumption with the sawmill wood wasn't that there is any doubt in the code about the strength of species (that is what it is), but about the grade of lumber. There are numerous books that'll tell you the strength of a wood species in various grades, but who says the wood you have is that grade. From my understanding lumber grading has to be performed by somebody certified by one of a few agencies. Now one could buy their lumber and hire someone to come in and grade it I suppose.. but that would negate a good portion of the savings. Not speaking from experience here..
You're close.. Lumber must meet grade requirements.. not that it can only be graded by certain paople..
The nice thing about the referance book I mentioned is they carefully define grading requirements in order to meet grade for each variety of wood. (each variety has a differant standard)..
In addition furniture grading and grading for lumber are differant..
Now the remarkable thing about lumber graders is the speed they grade wood at.. On average they spend less than a second appraising a given board.. while when I did it each board or timber took me at least 30 seconds and sometimes a lot more to do..
My sawmill pays a dime a bd.ft. for grading by certified graders. However that's graded according to NHLA rules which are differant than lumber rules..
A lot of hardwoods...wonder what do u make with them?
Watch out for Elm... something I gotta learn about it...
I made a home from them. go 85891.1 & 94941.1 for some pictures..
I use primarily KD lumber that I find to be consistent dimensionally for the most part..
occasionally I might get one that varies slightly, I'd say certainly not more than a 1/16.
Nothing that bothers me for framing purposes. My yard keeps it in an unheated building, might make a difference.
I've also worked some with rough cut lumber, this is much greener for the most part. I like working with it, it is much straighter than the KD. But thickness wise they tend to vary from 1 7/8 to 1 5/8, can be tricky to work with.
As far as the rounded corners, after working with rough lumber I appreciate the edges eased.. it saves on a lot of splinters.
A lot of the 1x that you get at the box stores now is really 11/16, not even 3/4 anymore.My local hardwood and pine mill made a decision years ago when 1x dropped from 13/16 down to 3/4, that they would stay at 13/16. They still are. I love the 13/16. it's so much more substantial than 3/4. This same mill has 5/4 that still measures 1 1/8. Another local mill does 5/4 that is 1" even, so I have a choice depending on what I'm matching. Unfortunately a lot of the trim on the 19th century houses here is 7/8, so nothing really matches exactly.I've not noticed 2x being thin. If anything the pressure treated is often 1/8 oversized when I get it. It usually dries out and shrinks a little bit, but generally stays a little fatter than kiln dried.Steve
splinters? work with hardwood! not softwood to avoid splinters..
Well do avoid elm whenever possible.. elm is capable of attacking a sleeping man shoving a splinter into his hand and then instantly infecting it..
The infection from an elm sliver is nearly almost always fatal.. At a minimum it requires amputation of the offending limb. <grin>
Seriously though I recieved no slivers from rough sawn black walnut, white oak, maple, or most other hardwoods I worked with..
I wish you would test so called KD wood for moisture.. you would be amazed at just how green so called KD wood used in framing really is..
I'd love to work with just hardwood, just not gonna happen.Yes I know to go to mills.. but there are no hardwood mills around me. Lots of spruce, pine, and cedar. They do cut some hardwood up here, but none of it seems to go to local mills. I know of one within about 100 miles.. but they only sell by large quantities. And all the mills seem to mill a rough 2 by at about 1 3/4 around here. I guess they only need a 1/4 to dress.
Shaved corners make it harder for the wood to catch fire.
Seriously? That's really the explanation?
Not sure it is "the reason". But, I'm a Facilities Engineer for the Forest Service. So, I read all the literature their research labs are coming up with on making woodland homes more fire resistant. (And, trying to figure out how I might get the archeologists to let me do some of those fire resistant installations on the 100-year old structures I'm responsible for.) One of the things you do to increase fire resistance, is round over all exposed timbers, because the sharp edge makes it easier for the fire to get started. Smooth wood surfaces are also harder to get burning, than rough sawn surfaces. There has to be a real reason framing lumber has the corners rounded. It has to cost the mills more to do, and they don't do anything extra that costs them money. So, my first guess is that since planed wood with the corners rounded is more fire resistant, there is a some code that requires it.
hmm... never though about it as a fire resistance thing. Good point. I be a mite bit smarter now =)
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Edited 4/13/2009 12:23 am by Ted W.
I think you've uncovered the real reason why some firefighters don't like I joists.I've always heard that the lightweight construction caused the structural elements to burn more quickly- now I know it's because the I joists have sharp edges.Problem solved.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"rough lumber" is supposed to be 2" x 4".
When "dressed" that size is reduced to 1-1/2" x 3-1/2"
Having said that I cant find a 2 x 10 that is 9-1/2", the best I see these days is 9-1/4"
Exactly. How much more are they going to dress?
>>cant find a 2 x 10 that is 9-1/2"<<That's because a 2x 10 is 9 1/4.x2 = 1 1/2
x4 = 3 1/2
x6 = 5 1/2
x8 = 7 1/4
x10 = 9 1/4
x12 = 11 1/4Been that way for the twenty years I've been doing this.Steve
In the 80's a 2 x 4 was 1 5/8 x 3 5/8.Pete
Pete, the national standards for lumber dimension changed before I entered carpentry school in the mid 70's. I never saw a new stud that was 1 5/8" x 3 5/8". They had all changed to 1 1/2" x 3 1/2".
Your area might still have had a mill that was shipping the old sizes for some reason.
ALL,
I still remember the day I bought some 2x4s and griped that they didn't measure up right, and the look on the face of the clerk wondering what planet I was from. He 'spained it to me but I still didn't buy it till the guy I was working for gave me that same look and told me to go back and get them 2x4s.
Sure have lernt a lot sinc then, bcept for spellin.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work - TedsCarpentry.com
I'm with you - 2x4s have been the same size as long as I can remember. Whoever said it changed in the 80s must be mistaken. Given all the automated equipment out there now I don't expect it to change again. It would cost too much for all the lumber mills to retool.
Sometimes that 1l8" can be problematic when restructuring in a renovation.
It would seem the more continuous use of the 3+5/8s might be dated closer to the 1950s on a guess.
My son and I are renovating (re-building) a small house built in 1951. The original SPY 2x4's are slightly larger than new wood but not 1 5/8 x 3 5/8. I'm sure shrinkage is the difference. Those old 2x's have sharp edges and are nice and hard. I have several splinters in my hands right now. Almost none are good enough to re-use. Wonder how the house didn't fall down.
I suspect that the rounded edges may also make the board slightly stronger. A sharp edge creates a stress concentration that will cause splitting.
""... I have several splinters in my hands right now. Almost none are good enough to re-use. ..."" Man I have to ask....... What use do you find for re-used splinters?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Sometimes that 1l8" can be problematic when restructuring in a renovation.
I opened a ceiling today, '50s home, and the joists were indeed 1-5/8" thick.
Whenever I have to continue with the same thickness for new framing, I rip a bunch of 1/4" strips and glue/staple them to the modern studs before doing the framing. I'm not sure if it saves time or is about the same, but at least then I don't have to think about it. ~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work - TedsCarpentry.com
I agree. Most of the houses we work on are 1970-present. It's been a while since I saw 1-5/8".
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
My last house was built in 1977 with the 1-5/8x3-5/8 studs. I also had a lumber mill close by that would cut a "true" 2x4...for a premium price. The floor joists in that house were full-thickness 2x10's, rough on the face, but planed to a consistent width for a flat floor and ceiling. On 12" centers. Re-plumbing was a royal PITA, but the floor did NOT bounce. <G>They's all kindsa deals...
It's all over the map I realize with dimensions of different types of lumber. But widths change down to the quarter measurement after the 6" mark. For instance, if you by 1x6, you get a 3/4" x 5 1/2". When you buy the next width up a 1 x 8 becomes 3/4" x 7 1/4" and it remains such as you go up in wicth.The plywood thing is driving me nuts now. If I go to a box store for some type of paint ready finished ply, the thickness can vary as much as 1/8" at times. You just have to build around it, or find a supplier that has one manufacturer and stick with it. The real problem arises when you are butting two different types of materials that are supposedly the same width and want them flush. Hah! I just went through that with baseboard and qtr rnd top. The qtr rnd is 11/16" and the base is a true 3/4". Oh you can get true 3/4" qtr rnd but it's gotta be a special order. Ain't that a kick in the rubber parts?!I hate the rounded edged 2 x material.
I still think most of this, particularly plywood, is the switch to metric sizing for a global market. I did find a 12mm router bit is perfect for <used to be> 1/2" ply.
I don't mind metric. In fact, once you get used to it, it is ultimately easier. What I hate are all these different sizes, nominal thickness be long ago, but if something is called one inch and I expect it to be three quarters of an inch, then let it be just that and not all this skipping around. I realize of course standardizing is a difficult enough thing in a world as diverse and complex as ours, and maybe....just maybe, that's not how we humans were built to process things.I'll stick around to see what happens next.
First they were 2x4
then 1 5/8 x 3 5/8
and 1 1/2 x 3 1/2
The change to the 1/2 was in part for easy math
and then drywall came along and no more lath.
Moved some rough cut 3"x14"x16' the sharp corners....well they hurt.
Have seen some lumber with corners eased so much it`s hard to hook your tape to it.
Where I`am at we have KD lumber, yet on the coast and the island they do not. Like you say lumber is still same size, guess they think once it`s in the wall and shrinks it does not matter.
When Canada did the metric change over, I noticed some of the trim sizes go down (never up).The building code just converted the numbers, so now it`s a 38x89mm real pita.
The plywood seems ok it`s 19mm here.I think some of the trim makers are taking say a 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 and making 2 pieces using a real thin band saw blade, quick run through shaper.
End product is 11/16 x 3 7/16.
Gets worse, many plans come in metric, so you lay out doors and windows with one tape (metric), put it down get reg tape and lay out your studs.(just venting)
There is no mystery. 1/2" plywood is now 12mm. Buy a 12mm router bit and your rabbets will be tight.
In canada we have been on the metric system for years yet all lumber is still called by the old imperial system
people working here with lumber and liquids etc are used to the difference but a lot of customers are not
In the case of land it is regestered in meters but i have to refer to it in feet or they just look at me like im talking greek , it also sounds bigger in feet
back a few years ago a plane had to crash land when it ran out of fuel due to someone reading litres as gallons ( 1 litre is roughly 1/4 US gallon )
I recently bought some closet pole material. Store sign said 1 1/2" diameter, a small tag posted above the sign said 1 3/8". Bought some clear redwood 1x4, it's now 5/8" thick.
"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
nc,
Work faster! Then it isn't such a deal!
More like, not try to do so much, be such a perfectionist, renovate a 100yr. old house and have kids. Which actually this particular project is the last thing to finish from a slew of things I started randomly over the last couple years, that I have than since committed to just finishing, clearing the list and not adding anything too until there all done. Time at FHB doesn't help either.
I hear ya. I'm one of those chumps who bought fixer-uppers,, had kids,, now has to choose between family time evenings weekends, and putting on the toolbelt,,, again.
Was just a little laugh poke! ha!
It'll never stop. They'll just keep shaving it thinner and thinner till we're left to building with tooth picks and twigs. The 2x4s of 2010 will be 1x1/2s and the furring strips will be ribbons. And they'll all be made in China!!
Trees grown here, cut down and shipped to China, shaved down to tooth picks, and send back to us. And they'll all be sold through Home Frikin Depot!
And every single stick of it will be warped, twisted and soaking wet!
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
See my work - TedsCarpentry.com
Hey, yer not so far off.
I remember seeing a made in china sticker on the back of a wood trim piece once. Took it off and kept it somewhere.
Blew me away.
Still does just thinking about it.
Kinda like a buddy that bought some garlic at a walmart, got home and saw it was from China.
Garlic imported from China to a little nowhere'sville mid western town.
He threw it away.
Funny you say that cause one I'm trying to figure out is, in my stack of scrap 2xs I spotted one labled "Prouduct of Sweeden". Plain low grade pine, crate material. Cheap products from China, with all the sweat shops, slave labor and the ocasional over quailified guy actually getting $0.10 day I understand. The economics of it are simple that the back and forth shipping cost of raw material and finished products are far off set by the slave labor and lack of regulation by manufacturing in China. Especially the more labor, assembly, or manufacturing is involved to produce the product. What I'd like to know more math on is how taking an industulized and highly regulated country, like Sweeden, does it add up cheaper to ship lumber from there to the U.S. over using state side timber from Michigan, Washington, or Oregon. Stick lumber from Sweden? Don't understand.
That's from Sweeden, MN.There's a sawmill up there, ya know.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Does it come pre-shellacked?
Sweden has it's own lumber..
As for China they buy wood from whoever is cheapest and it's not always USA
The reason they can afford to sell wood cheaply has nothing to do with labor costs and everything to do with investments in equipment to produce a product with an absolute minimum of labor involved..
Our sawmills have an enormace amount of hand labor involved. Theirs is fully automated. Nobody touches anything from entry to exit..
You should see their furniture factories.. logs enter at one side and crated furniture exits at the other side stacked up in containers.. Giant factory with only 9 employees, all running computers..
I always assumed dimensional lumber was smaller becuase it was sized before planing, although I guess drying would also add to the effect. But I still think it's mainly due to planing the rough cut lumber. The difference in size between a soaking wet, heavy as hell 2x4 to a KD is only about 1/16, right? Certainly not a half inch. And the board is going to shrink more along it's width than its thickness, so it wouldn't be exactly a half inch under both ways.
Brian