Hello all,
I am posting this thread because I’m wondering how you folks deal with customers that you know are lying to you. I, myself am an honest person and if I make a mistake in a transaction or dealing with someone I think its better to come forward and move on from there.
But, it seems sometimes that I am being taken for a fool. Sometimes, like today, it wasn’t a big deal, wasn’t worth squabbling about, but it was irritating and as usual, money was at the core.
We had removed a bathroom door in the process of a remodeling. We remove by taking out the hinge pins, hinges stay intact. We came by earlier than planned for return to hang the door as the customer wished. Fine, it was after a day’s work and we were missing some tools to do a necessary adjustment to a jamb on one side. No biggie, the door worked, we said we’d be back to adjust it. We come back and find that the door has been taken off the hinges and rehung improperly and now is missing its shims, even missing one screw in each hinge (I found the old shims on the floor by the doorway in the hall). It took more time that it should have to reshim the hinges etc.
I asked homeowner if husband might have tried to ‘fix’ the door himself, “Oh no, we never touched it.” Sure, I think. Knowing they would deny and deny we fixed it and that was the end of it. I knew they didn’t want to pay the extra time it took us to fix “Mr. Fix-It”‘s work, so I figured, why bother to make a fuss?
Sometimes though, I think I let things slide that I shouldn’t.
I’ve had customers try to blame us for things we didn’t do, say we said things we didn’t, deny they said this or that, etc. I know that people are afraid of contractors lying and stealing from them, but jeez — what about people who lie and try to steal from us?
And, I even believe a customer did steal from us once, but I can’t prove it — and again, I know they’d lie and lie if confronted.
I am just wondering a) how you folks handle liars and b) how you choose to pick your battles with them. Just curious. Of course, your worse liar story might help to salve my feelings of frustration right now.
Replies
Ummmm Girlbuilder...how much time are we talking here...one minute or two?
You shouldn't have bothered to ask about who tried to fix it. You put your customers in an awkward situation and they obviously were too embarrassed to own up to whatever they did.
Before you asked that question, you should have asked yourself what you expected to gain with that knowledge. As far as I can tell, you had nothing to gain and everything to lose.
Tradespeople aren't known for their people skills but I'd suggest that everyone that deals with the public read How To Win Friends and Influence People.
blue
The old man who owned the audio shop where I learned custom installations had a sign in his office:
"If what you are about to say isn't going to do you, or the other guy, any good; don't say it!"
Not always easy to follow, but good advice.
it's tough.
luckily ... I haven't had many.
the times I have run across it ... I have just picked my battles.
I hate being lied to in any circumstance. Can't stand a lier or a thief.
last time ... had both the customer and kitchen designer lie.
I demo'd a kitchen .. was told to go ahead and remove the intercom system. It was more work for me ... unassociated to what I contracted to do ... but I was demo'ing so I did it. Pulled and unplugged all the wires I could ... last couple ... had to cut.
It was the first day of demo ... I actually had to interrupt the HO and Designer to confirm that "all this" is going ... HO said Yup ... designer said she wanted a cleaner look there anyway.
End of the job ... their door bell doesn work. It was wired thru the intercom.
They had priced new ... smaller .. intercom systems ... the idea the whole time ... found out there were a coupla hundred dollars ... not sure what they expected ... but I guess that was too high.
So ... when I go to collect my final check from the kitchen dealer ... he asked about me replacing the old intercom with a whole new system.
I blew my stack!
we went into the designers office ... and she stood there ... lied and said we never had that conversation. I'm pretty good at expressing myself when I'm pissed ...
and I expressed plenty.
told them all how I felt ... called the customer ... told them how I felt ...
and told them all if they wanted any money outta me I'd gladly see them all in court.
I got my final ... and got $500 of an $800 additional work check. Was gonna sue for the extra $300 ... but decided to let the aholes win that one. I've gotten much more than that by letting as many people as I can know that I "broke their intercom" ...
I'll bad mouth that company each and every chance I get ... people know me ... and they know I pretty much get along with everyone. So my opinion goes pretty far. I've raised an eyebrow at a local lumberyard with a salesguy I know very well ...
As for the HO's ... well ... they have to live with themselves. Not that they'd ever give it a second thot ... but ... extremely well off people that gotta stoop to lying to save a few hundred bucks ... their lives are obviously missing something.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I could guess the kitchen company! Maybe it’s a Pittsburgh thing I got messed with by my attorney’s father. Then he called and wanted info from my records on paint color. The conversation ended with sticking something somewhere.
Listen to blue. Practice humility, everyone of us has some dumb thing we don't deal well with. Remember that self respect is worth way more than revenge, what does around just might, eventually, come around. Every business is the same, the idiots of the world need every service.
Whattcha gonna doo?
I tell our people that when they run into a person who makes life miserable to remember that "There's better work to do." Customers sometimes need to be fired, permanently.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
When a Client lies to you, it's not about you. It's about them. It's is about their not wanting to take/ accept responsibility and unwillingness to admit to being unable to do what you do everyday.
Therefore you need to be more clever in assigning responsibility. Confrontation, as a first approach, is not the way to go.
I find acknowledgement of their efforts, with a pleasent smile, even a kind grin, will ease their willingness to admit failure and appreciate your efforts.
Regarding items which require up to 30 min additional work - it's assign to the Client Maintainance column. If it requires additional repairs, different materials, different tools - well then it's a different job. Here I need to explain what was left by me and what was done by someone else - after I left. It is done without emotion and in a matter of fact way.
If they still want the repair done at the new $, great. If not, good. But they always retain the "power" to say "Yes" or "No".
Oh, and as for ANY add'l work requested - I write it down on my job pad and make sure they see me writing it. Many times I will have them initial it when it is a no charge item. This gets documented again in the next Change Order, if there is one. Otherwise, it is a note to myself and translated into a Change Order - delivered and signed before I leave that day. I have a stack of blank COs with me at all jobs.
Turns out the paperwork of this business is the most important part of the job.
Frankie
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Oh, and as for ANY add'l work requested - I write it down on my job pad and make sure they see me writing it. Many times I will have them initial it when it is a no charge item.
SOP is to document and either initial or preferably SIGN for ANY changes - weather they are freebies or charged. That cuts down on the lies, lapes of memory and he said/she said - Oh! they said things as well.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
I agree with everyone who suggests getting everything in writing.
For the particular situation you raise, OK, you're not going to get somebody to sign that you told them you'd be back, etc., etc.
But for the larger question of having to deal with lying customers, get everything in writing and you'll have to sort them out less frequently.
There is an old saying in the law: "the faintest writing is better than the strongest memory."
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Thanks for the feedback. I was diplomatic about the door issue and when wife said, "Do you want me to ask husband?" I smiled and said, "No, its not that big a deal." and we fixed it. I did feel somewhat to blame for allowing the door to be unfinished when we left the first time. Also, I know wifey wears the pants in the house, so husband was in for rebuke, which I wasn't about to cause. But her tone about the door being all messed up more than it was is what irritated me, as if we were to blame completely, the door worked fine when we left, just needed fine adjustment. WHen we returned it was way outta whack. Also, I had had a very long day ... and well, probably wouldn't have said a word on a better day. Not an excuse though by any means.THat being said, I have learned something from all of you about taking notes of conversations -- in the presence of the homeowner. I try to keep up on what's said, but often fail to note those issues that won't require funding and I think that's where the ball gets dropped so to speak.I also see that my tendency to pick my battles isn't too far off the mark, so I'm glad I'm not alone on that. Getting into a pissing contest with a customer in my mind isn't a good way to get paid in the end or to get referrals afterward, no matter how the good the work might have been or sometimes how wronged I might feel we were. I am basically doing a reality check here and see I'm not too far off the mark.The designer story reminds me of something similar. A designer a homeowner had hired for a whole house remodel we were doing had her 'team' of kitchen people do the kitchen. She picked out the cabinets, hardware, etc. When it came time for us to get a slider for the matching room, I called the designer to verify the color of hardware in the kitchen, she gave me the color type and i ordered hardware for the slider accordingly. Turns out it was wrong and she denied ever speaking to me when I called the designer, I was willing to go halfway toward replacing it, accepting my error as well, but a flat-out denial was not what I was ready for. Thankfully, designer had shown her colors (no pun intended) with the homeowner as well, so no fault was given to me, but it was embarrassing and someone had to eat the hardware change-out cost and it wasn't the one that should have.If I had delayed ordering the hardware until I had confirmation via email or something else written as to color - from that designer, then I would have not had the problem to begin with. I was rushing the job and that is often where mistakes are made in my experience; feeling pressured to perform at a deadline arbitrarily set and making stupid mistakes which only a couple of days would have prevented.
As my profile shows, I'm not in the business. However I'd like to suggest that you carry a basic digital camera in your tool belt/box and get in the habit of shooting quick pictures of the work your doing as the day goes on. One of the few times where more is better, they don't have to be perfect, just in focus. Dump them each day into your computer, don't bother editing them (until needed), maybe filed by the job. If a dispute occurs or your memory fails you about a hidden location or detail it's available if you need it. Also gives you a history of the progress, successes, and mistakes that you can learn from when the job is done. If the clients ask why you take the pictures, tell them it's to show your friends/relatives what you do, and not "It's to cover my ***." People will be less likely to lie if they know that you have the pictures to prove/defend yourself.
Great idea. I keep a disposable camera in my car in case of an accident but never thought of this. Digital camers are coming down in price. Amazon just had a 2.1 MP on sale for $14.99 this last Friday.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Had mine with me a couple of months ago when I got rear ended. Bumper got bent. Way easier to set the camera on macro and take pictures of the insurance, registration, and licence than it is to find a pen and write the stuff down.It occurred to me after I posted, that the work in process pictures could be put together to show potential client examples of renovation from start to finish. Photo essay of "Bathroom remodel in 25 pictures" for example. ;-)
I could show the bathroom remodel, but I really didn't think it was that interesting. Bathrooms don't get me all excited.
Also, when I rent a car, I digitalize any pre-existing scratches, etc
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, with larger frame-ups and such I do keep a photo record of each step of the way, work being done, major changes and any change order -- before and after. I had a plethora of pics on a camera recently for the beginning (demo), peir form and frame up of a more extensive remodel we're doing. Had them on a large card (516mg) and didn't bother to download them for awhile. When I finally determined I had the time -- and remembered to download -- the card was screwed somehow! Everything gone forever. I figure that the card, plugged into one side of the camera, bumped into a magnetic backed calculator and case I had in my briefcase with the camera. I learned my lesson, downloading often is essential.
While reading your post, it occurred to me that possibly the wife did not notice specifically what state the door was in when you left and that the hubby tried to fix the problem without her knowledge. Thus she would have assumed next day that you had left the door in that condition. Just a thought.
I agree with you on that Sas and do believe that possibly that is exactly what occured. Thoughout all the work we've been doing there, he's been anxious to show what he's made of (wanting to do the demos on the bathrooms, hang the medicine cabinet, etc.), irritating in a way as I would rather spec out a job and not have to say, "Ok, you do this and we'll do this' and grit our teeth, wait too long and then hope its done right. Wifey kept pulling in his reins, but we did let him do some stuff. He might have tried to 'prove' something with the door and it blew up in his face so he kept quiet. Wouldn't be surprised.
girlbuilder
In a case like the one that you mentioned I'd probably just finish the door and let sleeping dogs lie.
Something more consequential would probably get a bigger reaction out of me.
I was doing some work for a couple that I new, the man was a heavy drinker. When I came to work one day I found my circular saw with the cord cut off, could only wonder what had happened.
I told the house wife that her husband needed to be more careful, next time he might cut himself, she had a sheepish look on her face and quickly offered to pay for the repair. I declined and asked her to mention to the dear husband that just like drinking and driving, drinking and working with power tools was a bad idea!
From that day forward every screwdriver was right were I left it.
Gotta pick your battles, some are not worth the effort.
Doug
Most of the time in that situation I figure it went like this after you left;
Wife: They stopped by and hung the door but they have to come back to adjust it>
Husband: I thought they were carpenters, they can't hang a door back up right, well I'll look at it. (had a bad day, pissed he has to deal with it, has minimal hands skills)
Wife: No, leave it alone, it will be alright. they just didn't have what they needed.
Husband; BS, its their job and we are paying for it. Ahhhh, I can't get it, screw it we are paying them anyway.
You show up and ask what happened. Wife panics and thinks I'm not telling them that story. So she says: No, we didn't mess with it.
So what would we do? Fix it, go on and not worry about it. I might say "I am sorry you were inconvienced. I hope if you have something else that needs looked at you will just give us a call. Easier if we just do it".
Of course the question will always be by them, and some of us here. How come you didn't have the stuff and do it in the first place?
All that being said I will tell you that I try to cover every base with every customer as I consider all customers liars. That may sound harsh and some prove not to be but in my experience few tell the absolute truth. As do few of us. It is just where their values lie, just like us.
My favorite is, "we will call you either way". They almost never do. Or, this looks good to me but I will need to let my husband look at it. 85% of all remodeling is driven by the woman. So I always figure that is the last time I hear from them, and it usually is. DanT
Dan, you left out the second half of the conversation. After girlbuilder leaves and hubby comes home, DW says "they came back and fixed the door right. And they noticed that you had screwed with it. Made me look like a fool. next time I tell you to leave something alone, you better listen to me."
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'd go find the husband...FAST, and then "they" could find him later.....in the pour!"If 'tis to be,'twil be done by me."
....;>{)"If 'tis to be,'twil be done by me."
Good point. You are entirely correct lol. DanT
the well known saying back from car sales days ...
"how do U know the customer is lying ...
their lips are moving"
always laughed at how true that was ... everyone hates the carsales-snake ...
but I never met more people that'd sit there and lie straight to my face than when selling cars. Used to crack me up ... why lie about your "perfect credit" ... don't they realize we're going thru a credit check at that very moment?
best one was a guy I recongized from HS ... "hey Jeff, we've just started shopping today ... yer our first stop" ...
so I run the credit ... of course ... theirs is "pretty good" ...
and see they spent the last 2 weekends getting turned down for credit all over the place ... had something like 15 credit app's run!
here's a little insider tip ... to everyone ... each time yer credit is run ... it shows.
had to ruin a pretend HS friendship over that ... couldn't get them financed if they put 99% down ....
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Lying to a car salesman isn't like really lying...
its just speaking in a language they understand...
Mr. T.
The Emperor has NO clothes!!!
true ... but like Dad always says ...
"ya can't bullsh!t a bullsh!tter"
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Dan, a good book to read is "Let's Get Real Or Let's Not Play". In a situation like you described, where the customer promises to call you back but never does, it might be best - while still sitting there - to say "Mrs. Jones, I appreciate your time and I hope you found my suggestions helpful, but quite frankly when people say they'll 'get back to me' I find they rarely do...and that's ok, though slightly baffling. But let's all be honest with each other, if you want to hire someone else - I'd really love to know why so I can possibly adjust my services in the future to offer more value to a customer. And if you plan on hiring me, when would you like to get started!". :-)
- Rob
Yeah, I could say all that. But probably won't. I just chalk it up to simple human nature. I believe most people 1) look out for number one 2) take the point of least resistance 3) are only redirected by a larger point of pain.
Most people in one way or another are self serving. It may be saying the right thing to get you to leave and not have to deal with you anymore all the way to lieing through their teeth to force you to pay for their error. Or volunteering for a good cause and working their way up to a leader ship role to satisfy a need to be in charge. That kind of thing.
Most people aren't motivated enough or don't want to be to put out any extra effort for your benefit. Some will and do but not many.
And last is my point of pain theory. The only real way to ensure that someone will do something is the point of pain. If I can get a compliment for doing something or do something and not get one most will opt for the compliment because it is the lesser point of pain. If they have to call someone and tell them they didn't get the job or not and never deal with them again they will again opt for the lesser point of pain. On and on. People are pretty predictable once you identify their personality type. But occasionally one surprises you, good or bad. DanT
Sounds to me like you showed up unexpectedly, after normal working hours, didn't have the tools you needed to do the job right, then did a partial job saying you'd be back to finish when you had the proper tools.
You ever hear the expression "a job's not done until it's done right"? So you left an undone job, that caused somebody enough frustration that they attempted to fix it themselves.
None of this reflects well on our profession.
You want to be treated like a professional? Start conducting yourself accordingly.
Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Unfortunately, many people fail to tell the whole truth or outright lie as a normal part of their day. It's interesting how they don't think others can see through it, especially when there's evidence or multiple conflicting tall tails.
Apparently it's a human thing that isn't going away, despite our actions. If all seems ok the assumption is that there's some white lies floating around and as soon as my BS alarm goes off I'll be warry of everything.
A nice little ol' lady, who could have been my dear favorite aunt, had me start on a few month project, only to have to leave town after a few weeks, but assured me that as soon as she returned that my weekly invoices would be paid for work performed in her absense. Yep, unbenonced to me, all the hard work was for free.
She was retired, with an income that couldn't be garnished, one big nice caddy that nicely fit into a small claims judgement vehicle exemption, no personal property on site and conveniently she "gave away" her furniture to friends and relatives while the new house was being built. This was to be her last house so a lien wouldn't pay off for decades, if ever. Turns out she had multiple judgments against her so my claim was pretty far down on the totem pole, further reducing any chace of a payout if some assets could be found.
Turns out I was either the 8th or 13th carpenter to work on the house, depending on how the count is made, all of which would love to see a final check.
As a result, when a weekly invoice isn't paid work stops until it is. I pass on any job where they won't pay weekly. This has worked well and just last fall when a contractor when broke I had a check in hand while the others who were happy with a biweekly check are still waiting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm wondering how you folks deal with customers that you know are lying to you.
I light a cigar off their burning pants and then use their nose to make a phone call.
Its never too late to be up to date.
http://grantlogan.net/
LMAO...You been dipping into my hallucenigenic hot sauce huh?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Damm, I miss that stuff
Not yet. Cindy's making some chili as we speak for a party at work tomorrow. She likes to show her chili a picture of a pepper (black and white, too) for seasoning. I might slip a little in while she's not looking.
Its never too late to be up to date.
http://grantlogan.net/
That is really not one of your best ideas...you could get me sued..LOL
Well, Ok..just a teaspoon won't kill anyone ( in a BIG pot).
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Damm, I miss that stuff
>>>>>>>>>>>>you could get me suedOoops, too late..................
Its never too late to be up to date.
http://grantlogan.net/
LMPO[laughing my pepper off!]
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ROTFLMAO - you and Matt Helm can get away with using that line!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>>>>>>>>>you and Matt Helm can get away with using that line!I just saw part of one of those movies the other day. They're a hoot.
Its never too late to be up to date.
http://grantlogan.net/
I situations like that I usually don't say a word just grit my teeth and fix it right.
I have had one situation where I had to replace a glass and a door lock in an old door I replaced the glass and forgotten the glazing so I figured that the glazing points i had put in would hold the glass so I replaced the lock but the striker plate had slipped alittle bit so the latch when you closed it didn't go in the hole I was trying to adjust it when the HO was going out side, I let her by and she noticed that it didn't latch and before I could say don't slam it, as you can imagine the glass came out and shattered. So I grinned and gritted my teeth and said I had better get another piece of glass!
Scott
shatterable glass does not belong in a door! It should have been tempered
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Or laminated, both are allowed by code. I prefer lami, it ads a bit of a theft deterrent.
Well I was and still am sorta new to the business and I learn from my mistakes plus as each obsticle comes up I try to do as much home work as I can on the subject but that happened a few years ago and I know now what I should have done.
Thanks for the advise Piffin,
Scott
In Texas, shatterable glass IS allowed in doors as long as it's "art glass"--meaning etched, bevelled, leaded, etc, and no individual piece exceeds 100 square inches."Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
I think the point is that the glass fell out and to the floor. Even tempered glass breaks. Perhpas shatter was teh wrong word.
If it was tempered and it fell to the floor and broke - then shatter is definitely the right word to use! (that, or exploded, or detonated works as well)
What I have had happen more than outright lying is the customer telling me something and then forgetting he or she told me (or, thinking they told me something and they didn't). Again, good reason to get things in writing (though I seldom do that myself!). Just recently I was told to paint a bedroom beige with off white trim. The owner walks in and says, "Oh, you decided to paint the room beige like the living room. Looks good. Why don't you do the other bedroom and the small hall the same way?" I know that he had first told me off white on the bedrooms, then had said that beige with off white trim would look better on the one bedroom (in fact I wrote it down in a notebook as he said it). Turned out fine, since he did like it, but, could have been bad!
But when I worked as a planner I had the same thing happen with bosses and other planners. One guy (from a city's public works dept.) in a meeting jumped me and really criticized our plan. I got back to the office and told the boss and he called the other guy's boss. Guy denied having said it and my boss was not happy with me, when I remembered that I had recorded the meeting so I could write up the minutes. Played the tape for my boss and he saw that I was right and the other guy lied. In government work I always tried to tape everything, or at least write an extensive journal with dates and times and "he said", "I said". Helped me more than once!
Human nature suckss. And if money is involved? Look out.
I don't know how many times I have had someone tell me "So-in-so is a great guy, bla, bla, bla". And then when you do business with them and something goes wrong? Well, you guessed. The money goes to the head and look out!!! lying, cheating, sneaking around gaining allies, but other than that . . . great guy.
In your case, it is pretty tough. Just another he said she said. You can be infatic that you did not leave teh door that way and that you don't beleive ghosts or poltergies removed teh shimes. But what would be the point? For the homeowner to fess up totally opens them up to your come back and perhaps an additional charge. AH the money issue!!!! You wish character were king and that all lived up to honor and honest, but . . . well this is the real world and . . . human nature suckss.