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I’m trying to quote more accurately; to anticipate as much as I can. The project at hand is a handicapped renovation of an 8′ square bathroom in an old house (structurally sound). The plan is to gut the room, and add a 3X3 transfer shower, wall-hung lav, and elevated toilet, tile floor – some tricky framing to use existing door and window openings. I’m coming up with about $11 K for high-quality work (119 hours at $35, including 15% profit, 20% overhead)in my Excel spreadsheet (attached). This seems high, but the figures are there. I’m sure the woman would pay, but I’d like to feel I’m competitive.
Anyone have any feedback on this?
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Labor rate of $35 per hour is at least $10 per hour to cheap. Unless the 35% and 15% is added to it.
Does "Haul Away" include carrying the debris from the bath to the truck, and travel time to the dump and back to the site?
Installing and finishing drywall seems too cheap for this small job. Did you allow time to bring the drywall into the bath from the truck? Also, on an older home, you may have joists and/or studs that are not plumb, level, or evenly lined up necessitating shiming.
$860 for the tile floor is high - at 64 SF less shower, it comes out to over $13 per SF.
Does your spreadsheet allow for the following:
1. Time to obtain materials
2. Set up daily in the home and specifically in the site area- drop clothes, protection, tools and materials brought into the house.
3. Clean up on a daily basis.
4. Extra time for final job minor details
5. Labor contingency
Finally, in an 8' x 8' bathroom, a 3x3 shower seems extremely small considering the available space to install a 3x4 or 3x5 for more room.
*Forrest...welcome to the first of the seven veils..Areu PERSONALLY going to do all of this work? if u r using subs (Plumber, Elec) why are u using unit prices?if u r using subs , u should be entering QUOTES, with the way things are out there right now, no one is going to come service your job for those rates, so you need a Fixed Quote for those subcontracted items... just as there is the "fog of war" there is also the fog of 8x8 bath remodeling...yesterday i had four plumbers , one carpenter andmyself in a 6 x9 bath.....whoops...also if you have any kind of inspection process, think about this..you open the floor, you find thathalf the joists were cut 3/4 of the way thru when they installed the first bath in 1927.. you reroute the pipes, the plumber does his rough, now you can't relay the floor until the roughinspection is done.... but he won't come out until u r ready for the electrical rough inspection... so where is the "do everything 2x" built in to ur estimate?baths are generally rooms built to the nearest half inch... if you want to get it just right , youn have to juggle your fixtures with input from the homeowner about coordinating all the design elements....the skylight, the window, the vent pipe , the fan/light, the vanity, the marble threshold, the toilet, the heat,....you already designed it... i saw you carried money for the design...GOOD MOVE... now you get to modify the design as you build it...this is a handicap bath, right? you want to get it right...and i bet your Homeowner was nodding their head in agreement as you went thru the process, right?..now you're working in 12 inch = i foot scale , and its time to verify that this is what they want, last chance to get it right...build it into your estimate or be prepared to eat it..b IMHO, Mike
*I agree with Sonny that the tile price sounds high - if you take it as an isolated line item. Still, I wouldn't necessarily make an adjustment there unless there were other labor costs or contingencies added back in to the price. Personally, I've found that the supervision and overhead factors on certain trades are significantly higher than on others. Specifically, my experience with many of the tile companies in our area is that they are so into competitive pricing that their work force is not equipped to handle the workmanship, the timeframes, and the worksite etiquette and demeanor that we expect when working in someone's home. Hiring them requires as much (or more) direct supervision, prep and cleanup time, as the direct labor itself, especially on a small job. So I bump the tile price enough that I can hire the best installers I can find rather than the best prices based on what someone else says is reasonable. Also, as Mike pointed out, timing is critical on these small jobs. So I also want to have enough in there to cover if I have send some help over to jump in and give a hand or make sure everything is set up and cleaned up the way we want it. After all, once you start the job, you will end up doing whatever is necessary to make sure it is done right. As far as the overall spreadsheet, Look at what happens when you calculate the overhead and profit numbers as a percentage of the selling price instead of a markup of cost. Which did you really want to use? Ken
*Ken,I'm not following your math. Where did you come up with the selling price of $12,273.46 to develop the profit and overhead figures you replaced on Forrest's spreadsheet? His original "selling" price after his math was only $10,516.13.Also, Forrest, your original materials total appears incorrect. Adding your materials column to the others column totals $3,490. That, plus labor = A raw total of 7,672.50. Contingencies, an item I would call an expense, would bring the subtotal to $8,439.75. Then I would add the overhead percentage, then the profit percentage. As in $8,439.75 + 20% = 10,127.70 + 15% = 11,646.86. If you figure your percentages separately, as you did, you short yourself a few hundred dollars. I think you should not only make a profit on the work you do for others but also on the actual operation of your own company, hence the profit percentage applies to your overhead also. If that wasn't clear - everything you do that is not directly charged to a particular job still must happen to do each job. So to avoid the tedium of costing out each minute of the secretary's time, each piece of paper, every pencil, all your insurances, all your licenses, all your continuing education,ad nauseum, you have overhead - and it's part of each job and should earn a profit.Comments? Ralph
*Hello Forrest,I do a lot of handicap Bath remodels, and I see quite a few problems with your bid. I use an entirely different layout for my bids, but I get all of the details, and all of the materials listed right down to the fasteners I use. I can see a lot of things missing from your bid that are going to come back and bite you. I see you charged for design. GOOD FOR YOU!First thing I see is "new devices" under electrical. What exactly is "new devices"? You are most definitely going to have to install GFCI outlets, a light fixture, a switch for the light, a switch for the vent fan, and covers for all of them. You will also need some wiring (count on it), some wire nuts, and misc. electrical supplies. $35.00 ain't gonna cut it. You will get burned here real fast.Next is the sheetrock for the walls. You have Steve listed as finishing the ceiling (for $120.00), but nothing listed for finishing the walls. If you are going to do this work yourself, then 2 hours labor isn't enought to hang it, tape and float it, and finish it. Next up is the tile job. WAY too expensive. Maybe it's justified, but I can't see on your sheet all of the details about the tile job. This is one to think about.Next is the windows and doors. You list prep at $10.00 and $25.00. What exactly is "prep"? You stated in your post that the doorways and window would use the same openings. This means that you are hanging new doors (plural with an s at the end) and new window. You list 1 hour for hanging/prepping the door, and 2 hours for hanging/prepping the window. This is WAY too low. No where do I see labor for actual installation of doors and window, so I must assume it is part of the "prep" listing. What about trim for the doors/window? None listed.Next is plumbing fixtures. I do not see a shower valve assembly. Code requires a temp regulating/anti-scald shower valve assembly for handicap showers. This one will eat your lunch if you have not counted on it. Code also requires a handicap toilet, not a high rise. Local inspector may let you get away with just a riser, but here in my neck of the woods, local inspectors follow ADA codes and guidelines. Handicap toilet is more expensive than standard toilet. Also, a 3 x 3 shower unit is small. I personally install a 4 x 4 if room allows it, or a 3 x 4 if cramped quarters. If the room is too small to accomodate at least a 3 x 4 shower, we extend the room.Next is the Nutone vent fan and duct. Cost for these here is more than you have listed, unless you are going with an el cheapo unit. I also do not see time listed for climbing in the attic and running the duct out the roof. 1.5 hours is not enough for this operation.$40.00 for a medicine cabinet is CHEAP. 5 hours for painting is way too cheap if you are actually doing "quality work" as stated. Prep time for painting, priming and applying two coats of paint to walls, ceiling, doors, and trim will take an experienced painter a LOT more than 5 hours to do a professional looking "top quality" job. Last, but not least, is your labor rate. I live in an area that has a very low cost of living rate. (It is cheap to live here). I work alone (my wife is my helper) and I have low overhead. I keep my costs as low as possible, but I still have overhead costs that I must account for. I charge $45.00 per hour in most cases, and as high as $65.00 per hour in others. $35.00 per hour is awfully low. Another biggy in my area is the inspector. Whenever we do complete guts, we have to worry about the inspector making us come in and get everything up to modern code. Wall framing, plumbing, and wiring in older homes can become your worst nightmare if the inspector makes you upgrade. This will be an expensive addition if it is required. This would be between you and the homeowner to decide about payment for the extra work involved, but it is something that should be considered when estimating the job. Price wise overall, you would be a tad high here. I live in the South, and we have the cheapest rates for remodeling anywhere in the nation. So a lot depends on exactly where you are, and what your competitors would charge for a job like this. You don't necessarily want to be just like them, but you want to at least be in the same ballpark as most of them. This keeps you competitive. This job (depending on specs and materials used) would run in the $8,500 to $9,500 range because it is a complete gut, and a handicap project. For the record, most 8 x 8 bath remodels here would go for about $4,500 to $7,500 for a complete gut and top quality materials. Handicap is always higher because the fixtures and materials, as well as the extra labor involved adds up quickly.Just my humble opinion...James DuHamel
*Quite observant, Ralph. The difference is that I am calculating the overhead and profit as a percentage of the overall price instead of a markup on cost. I am still using the same raw cost. This wouldn’t change no matter how you figured the price you were selling the items at. As you can see, the financial difference can be staggering, and can be enough to put you out of business if you don’t know which one you want to apply. Using a markup on cost is typically easier for most contractors since it is a matter of simple multiplication and addition. However the numbers can be misleading, especially if you have calculated the overhead and profit you need as a percentage of total income. Let’s just say that you had annual sales of $1,000,000 last year and you actually made a profit. You know that direct costs were $650,000. Then your overhead and profit is $350,000. Everything done, let’s just say that of the 350,000 you ended up with 50,000 after all expenses, salaries, and we call that profit. That would be 300,000 spent on overhead and 50,000 left as profit. OK, then that means that your overhead percentage based on gross sales is 30% (30% of 1,000,000 is 30,000) and your profit is 5% (5% of 1,000,000 is 50,000).Now lets take those same percentages and apply them to the cost figure. Your direct costs were $650.000. 30% of 650,000 is 195,000; and 5% of 650,000 is 32,500. Add them up ----- 195,000 + 32,500 = 227,500. This wouldn’t even be enough to cover the overhead (300,000)!So what I am saying is that if you have based your overhead and profit percentages on gross sales figures, the selling price is too low using the cost figures given. How the costs were calculated is another part of this discussion. The formulas I inserted in the spreadsheet were designed to calculate both overhead and profit as a percentage of the selling price; however, I still used the SAME RAW COSTS to derive those numbers. As I said, which way did you intend to calculate? To be fair, sometimes I use a markup on cost and other times I use margins to calculate the selling prices. It depends on how, when and what I am working with. Just keep in mind that a 50% markup on cost is less than a 35% margin of the selling price.On the difference in addition you noted – Hey I didn’t check ALL the formulas hidden in the spreadsheet! The formula used did not extend up far enough to include the design cost! was that intentional or a spreadsheet error ??Ken
*While I'm on the topic of tricky spreadsheet accounting,James - does your labor rate of 45. to 65. per hour include your overhead or do you add O & P in on top of that labor rate? If you take Forrest's labor rate of $ 35. /hr and add in the contingency, overhead and profit as he has in the spreadsheet, his net selling price for labor comes in at 50.75/ hr.Just another thing to look out for - how you present the information for your own use. I have 2 basic labor rates that I use - one is a "retail rate" that I use for quick reference to price small jobs that require a quick labor and materials quote, or to check myself on larger jobs. The retail rate has the overhead and profit burden included so I don't need to go through all the calculations every time. The other is a "trade rate" that reflects my cost on labor (in house or subcontract) and will result in a total "contract rate" close to the "retail rate" once the profit and overhead figures are applied to the total job costs (including the labor cost).
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I'm trying to quote more accurately; to anticipate as much as I can. The project at hand is a handicapped renovation of an 8' square bathroom in an old house (structurally sound). The plan is to gut the room, and add a 3X3 transfer shower, wall-hung lav, and elevated toilet, tile floor - some tricky framing to use existing door and window openings. I'm coming up with about $11 K for high-quality work (119 hours at $35, including 15% profit, 20% overhead)in my Excel spreadsheet (attached). This seems high, but the figures are there. I'm sure the woman would pay, but I'd like to feel I'm competitive.
Anyone have any feedback on this?