Need Help with flooring stapler on Bambo
Good evening,
I’m in a bind here. I bought my bamboo flooring (5/8″) about 5 weeks ago and it’s been acclimating to the house. I was told by more than a few people to use a stapler. My subfloor is prepped and I rented the bostich flooring stapler (pneumatic) tonight so I could get an early start. . I wanted to get the stapler set up. On my test strip, The 2″ staples are destroying the tongue. It is hitting at the base of the tongue at a 45-50 degree angle. I tried air pressures ranging from 45 psi to 100 psi. Should I try a thin shim to raise the stapler a bit? Should I switch to nails / cleats? The flooring is Morning Star Strand and I will be using a pad. I’m not a novice here. I’ve used floor nailers before but I’m at a loss as to why this is doing this. Any suggestions?
Replies
You say "base of the tongue"... I take that to mean it's putting the staple at the inside corner where the tongue takes off from the main body of the board. If it's putting it right in the corner, that's a good start. You could try shimming the base of the stapler a little and see if you can get the staple up just a hair into the body of the board. My Bostitch has shims for different materials, they are thin pieces of steel, you might try scraps of formica or tin shingles/flashing.
What pressure is recommended? High?? Low??
". I'm not a novice here. "
sounds like you are using a stapler set up for 3/4 material on 5/8th flooring.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Well, if the staple is hitting in the right place, and it's 5/8" flooring, it may be set up for 5/8" flooring? Did I miss something in Flooring 101. It is not hitting out on the tongue. I just shimmed it with two pieces of shim stock and I'm still getting tongues that are cracking. I've wasted three pieces of flooring trying to get this set right. If anyone would like I'll mail a picture.
ok ... so it's putting the staples where they're supposed to go?
at the lowest pressure is it setting the crown of the staple below the wood?
blasting the whole staple thru?
if the crown is still proud ... like it would need to be set ... and it's still breaking the tongue off ... either cheap staples or cheap wood? Dunno.
last bamboo I laid was glue down over ply.
I did the job for another GC ... he said it was a glue down job, so that's what I did.
never even looked to see if it could be stapled ...
does the manufacturer say U can nail/staple it?
might be a glue down only deal?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Manufacturer says Nail / staple or glue. I set the pressure @ 85 psi and the staples went just flush but still cracked. I'll add another shim in the morning to see if that will help. If not, I'll return the nailer and screw the whole friggin floor down. I've got three days off from work.Thanks
Goldy, my half dozen experiences with bamboo and the bostich stapler.
low pressure-remembering maybe 60/70 lbs.
proper base plate for thickness.
stay away from the end of the pc.
Is pad normal for nail down?
I'm not a flooring specialist-just a dumb carpenter.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
From what I understand, Bamboo "lumber" products are made with a large amount of resin, which would probably make it hard/brittle. I would expect that to lead to the results you mention, although you also say mfg allows staple down.
The pad is the problem. Never heard of padding under a nailed down floor myself. It would let the flooring flex enough to break off the tongue when the staples strike.
STAPLE DOWN INSTALLATION-RECOMENDED
When stapling Higuera Hardwoods Prefinished Solid Bamboo Flooring, DO NOT USE AN UNDERLAYMENT other than felt paper or rosin paper. Using thicker underlayment pads could cause other problems.
Make sure subfloor is tested for moisture content first and is properly prepared. Use an solid flooring stapler of your choice that is appropriate for 5/8" thick flooring after testing to make sure that stapling will not cause dimpling (localized raised edges) in the finished floor. If you see dimpling, STOP and adjust the stapler shoe, angle/place
of staple entry or air pressure until test planks confirm that dimpling is no longer occurring. Higuera Hardwoods is not responsible for replacing material that has been installed with dimples due to improperly maintained staplers or misaligned staplers.
http://www.higuerahardwoods.com/bamboo_installation.cfm
My two bits: I've laid three fairly large bamboo jobs so far over 3/4" subfloor. Beautiful installs with zero problems. I did use a padded vapor barrier (as with laminate flooring) and used my 18 ga. brad nailer with 1-1/4" brads
On the first job I rented a flooring stapler and immediately proceeded to blow the tongue apart. Being more interested in getting the floor installed than deciphering the intricacies of the stapler, flooring thickness, shims etc. I had the wife return the rental and switched to my brad gun.
I agree with the poster that said that bamboo is very hard and brittle. You have to stay away from the ends of the board with your fasteners and watch your fastener spacing--too close and the whole tongue will separate.
I can't imagine that 18 ga brads is correct for a nail down floor, no matter what thickness or species."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I did my bamboo floor with the Bostitch 18 Ga. brad nailer, too. Worked fine. Some nailers don't let you position the retractable nose of the nailer close enough to the inside corner of the tongue. It holds the nail too far out to the edge of the tongue (lip of the tongue?), which makes 2 problems: 1) you crack the tongue, which weakens it and flares the tongue out enough that the groove of the next course won't fit tight; 2) the nail isn't positioned back far enough to be behind the tongue where it exits the bottom. This also prevents the mating groove of the next course from seating in far enough.
Stay about 3 or 4 inches back from the ends of the boards to prevent splitting of the tongue.
You wouldn't want to be accused of having a forked tongue, would you?
Best of luck.
FWIW I just layed 1000 sq ft of lumber liquidators solid bamboo with a Harbor tool Bostich knock off gun and "real" bostch 2" flooring staples. No issues with tounge spliting as you mentioned. I finished just before Thanksgiving so it may be premature to comment but I wouldnt recomend any other method. I suspect the material itself is causing the difference in install expirience. Also, new 1/2" subfloor was scewed & glued over the 110yrd old 1" T&G subfloor.
Im in the upper midwest so the recent cold dry weather has resulted in some very slight shrinkage/ gaping between the 4" boards. Check with me when the weather warms up and the floors have gone through a complete temperature/moisture cycle.
Its holding up really well to our 2 large dogs and 2yrd old who thinks droping (slamming) her toys on daddys new floors is the most fun game. The only issue has been the wifes midget friends who refuse to take off thier heels at the front door which has resulted in a few stiletto indents. Im known as the shoe #### at our home.
Here my two bits. In my test runs I did not use the underlayment. I used a 2x4 base, 3/4 plwood as my subfloor, and the 5/8" flooring. I placed the third shim (my shims are 18 ga sheet metal). I raised the entry point on the staple above the tongue by 3/32" and still have issues. When this happens you can not put another piece of flooring against it and get a tight fit.The stapler and pad are on the way back as I type this. All this BS about janka hardness, stability and beauty go out the window if you can't install in a somewhat regular fashion. I own an 18 ga brad nailer and a 16 gauge finish nailer. Would an 18 ga / 1 1/4" hold 5/8" flooring down. I tried face nailing with the 16 gauge finish nails which caused raised dimples and cracking.
I'll keep you posted and thanks to everyone for their comments.
Sounds like it's time to call the manufacturer and get the area rep involved.
I would seriously consider gluing it down at this point. You can use the brad nailer to hold the planks in place while the glue cures. Bostik is one brand of floor glue. Watching this old house this morning, I saw a floor of (unfinished?) 5/8 oak put down with urethane glue and face nailed with 18ga brads. I would nail the tongues myself.I would not depend on brads to hold the floor down, 16ga nails would be better, but I would be inclined to glue it down.
The stranded bamboo had more resin than the "solid" bamboo, and is more prone to cracking.You've done what I'd try...using shims to move the entry up a bit above the tongue. Vary pressure. I find success around 80-90 psi. I always use 2" long, 1/2" crown, coated staples. If no luck, then it just might be time to have fun with a trowel and a 5-gallon bucket of Bostik' Best.
I'da glued it and been done with it.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
That's because you're a real man.
well ... that ... and too much thinking makes my head hurt.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I have two glued down floor with Bostick's best ("The Most Tenacious Glue in the Industry"). I swore I would never do it again. I wore glue on my knuckles for two weeks that wouldn't come off with mineral spirits (I'm allergic to mineral spirits).
So, I did manage to get the first half of the floor put down with my finish nailer and 1 1/2" nails. The just peak through the underside of the sub floor. So far so good. Incidentally, I made a small tool to scrape the tongue if the fit was perfect. It did help. All my work under the cabinets and around the stove and fridge is done, now it's straight runs at this point. I even manage to salvage a dozen boards from the old floor and use them in another room that had some issues. I'm beat.. Hope to finish it up tomorrow at this point.
It's too bad you couldn't find success with the flooring nailer. Nothing like pounding away on a nailer to take out your frustrations.I hope the finish nails hold on to the subfloor. They don't have the grip that a coated staple does.Anytime I break out Bostik's I think of a post that someone made about 10 years ago...the poster struggled through the first part of the installation and had adhesive on his hands, arms, and feet. He was just finding his rhythm, and as he dug his trowel into the bucket for another load of adhesive his eye glasses slipped off his head and landed right in the bostiks. With minimal options available, he pulled the glasses out and planted them back on his face. Needless to say, the adhesive covered glasses stuck to his nose and ears just fine for the rest of the installation.
Question,staples over nails? When and where are preferred. I've always thought that nails had bettere holding power. I know tyvek will not warrent there product unless nailed and with button caps. Same thing with roofing manufactures, to me staples would either pull out or tare the ptoduct.
What about stapling with button caps? I think staples hold better than nails except where they can pull through the material.
The staples should work , they have a stapler that combines the caps with staples. You have to use chisle point staples instead of the blunt ones. My local lumber yard carries the stapler but the chisle points are extra. Don't think i would use that on house wrap,I like a nail in the cap for that.
Staples or nails for flooring? Depends. I think nails are fine for wood flooring, the first time I shot staples was the first time I did bamboo, back around 11 or 12 years ago.Bamboo is brittle and nailing did cause some cracking, so I switched to 2" long, 1/2" crown coated staples. No more cracking. I've never nailed an engineered floor. Usually glue those.I was sort of anti-staple and somewhat skeptical about staples until I tried to pull up the first few test pieces of bamboo flooring that I stapled off. Coated staples are tenacious. I'd never staple asphalt shingles.Tyvek as a housewrap? Yeah, caps would be best. But Tyvek can have their warranty.
I had to pull a false chimney down to this addition and when i pulled the plywood off it all but fell on me. They had it stapled, and they just were not holding. When the carpenter helping me stapled the ice/snow shield down I asked him about button caps. He swore by the staples, so I just nailed it after with button caps. The flooring info I have to remember, I have new floors to put in this addition and with radiant heat I have to watch how I fasten it.
They stapled the plywood? Are you talking sheathing and subfloor plywood? After Hurricane Andrew hit FL way back when I went down there to help some friends get their places together. There were subdivisions where each 4' by 8' piece of plywood roof sheathing had been tacked down with four staples, one in each corner. Now there's a quality installation!You staple ice/water membrane too? Isn't it a self-stick?
Ok. Flooring finished and it's been down for two weeks. It looks great and feels great underfoot. The tolerances on this flooring was very tight. Very little forcing or wedging was needed (about 6 boards in 30 sq ft. Almost no over / under boards. Very little waste less than 2%. Bad spots were removed and boards reused(regrooved or tongues recut on ends). While putting it down, we found out there are differences in nails (16 gauge) between manufacturers, some bend easier than others. I said earlier I was using a 1 1/2" nail. It was a 2"/16 gauge nail. I dare anyone to try and pull a 36" piece of flooring up with 5 nails in it and tell me it's easy. The company rep finally got back to me 3 days after the floor had been installed. Their 24/7 phone number and emails went unanswered on the long holiday weekend.
This is their response: "Using cleat nails is definitely a better option than staples for this product. Some cleat nails tend to be bigger than others, so I suggest using a 18 gage cleat nail 1 1/2'' long with a model 50P nail gun made by powernail. You can find this nail gun and nails at http://www.powernail.com ; some Sunbelt rental companies also carry this model nail gun.There are techniques the Pros know and use that can help to minimize it; Try using a cleat nailer instead of a stapler as the drive bar that delivers the staples may tend to snap or split the tongue across the crown of the staple, like a common wood chisel. Cleat nails tend to pierce the tongue cleaner and neater.Also try adjusting the regulator valve if using an air compressor or you can change the angle of nail entry by a applying layers of duct tape, either the bottom front or bottom back of the tool base, this usually does the trick.Actually for some species of wood like Blood wood, Ebony, Teaks, Brazilian Rosewood and Brazilian Cherry, the "pre-drill and hand nailing" method may be needed to prevent wood damage. If using a nailing machine for harder exotics watch out for any surface dimpling or mushrooming. This condition can happen when nailing denser woods. The nail actually pushes the surface of the wood up (resulting in a surface dimple) to receive the nail. If floor-nailing machines will not correctly nail the wood without dimpling the surface or fracturing the tongues, it may be recommended to pre-drill and hand-nail some species, just as a carpenter would when working around fine furniture or cabinetry."
A generic response, he never listened to what I was saying or wrote. I said their sales help should be instructed better and told him to call the stoor and ask the same question. The "salesman" said 15ga / 2" staples work fine.. blahblah blah. Never listen to a salesman. Hopefully someone will be able to use this info in the future. Good Luck
Are you using a regular flooring stapler or one of the ones made for engineered flooring?
The regular stapler will blow the tongues off, because of the thickness of the 15-gauge staples, and the brittleness of the bamboo. The ones made for engineered flooring are designed for either 1/4 to 1/2 -inch flooring, or 3/8 to 9/16-inch flooring and use 20 or 18-gauge staples.
A buddy did some of the 5/8-inch bamboo, using my stapler set for the 9/16-inch flooring, with 18-gauge staples, with a shim of easy glide tape stuck on the bottom of the shoe, with excellent results.
He had tried a regular flooring stapler with the same result you are having, the tongues just split off. The 18-gauge staples solved the problem.
If you can't find one to rent, I would suggest looking on eBay. I have an older Bostitch gun, that I bought off eBay, from a guy who had bought it to do his house. He had bought it off Amazon with 5000 staples, and shipped me about 4200 staples with the gun, (the amazon receipt was in the box), so I was pretty confident, it had seen light use.
As someone else said, you can do it with a brad nailer. It just takes more time than with the dedicated tool.
Thanks for the suggestion. You are correct, it was a 15 gauge stapler. Way too much mass & power for this stuff. I called the rental place to ask about the 18 gauge stapler and got dead silence on the phone. Guess they didn't have it. I tried my brad nailer on my mock up piece of flooring and had a heck of a time pulling the piece up (nailed 6" apart). I just removed my old floor with cleats and they came up easier than the brads. I could nail closer but I think that is pointless. For my face nailed pieces, I predrilled for trim screws and put wood putty in the holes. You can barely see them. Thanks
I would not nail down a floor with a brad nailer or even a 15ga nailer. Too much risk of squeakage. Glue down is a great idea if the product is approved for it. There is an article in JLC about 4 months ago about glue down installation. The author predetermines all of the courses and stacks them to the side before gluing.
Most manufacturers have a help line -check with them, although sometimes they are, ah, unduly 'protective'
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