This grand staircase is in the center of an old historic home. It has about 6″ of play in it left to right. Probably because there are no posts(my guess). The ballisters on the landings are just toe nailed in place. The ballisters on the treads are dove tailed, but very sloppy.
I’m not sure adding a post is feasable. My plan is to dowl the top, dovetail the bottom, of the landing ballisters. Re glue the ballisters on the treads.
Think that will help, or is anything short of newel posts going to lock it up?
It’s not too late, it’s never too late.
Edited 9/20/2008 8:24 am ET by dustinf
Edited 9/20/2008 8:24 am ET by dustinf
Replies
What kind of access are you allowed to create?
1st thing I can think of is a rod through the center of a few of the balusters anchored in the rail with nuts below to pull tension. Getting the rod hidden in the center of the balusters would be a problem though.
Beuatiful rail.
1, Pocket screws and plugs would tighten it all up but lots of patching and color blending.
2, Remove a spindle, cut down the center using a thin blade. I would make a carriage to hold the spindle for cutting. Cut a groove to clear a length of 3/8" all thread. drill up through the hand rail and counter bore from the top for a wood plug to match.
Drill into the floor under the removed spindle tapping size for the all thread. Cut the all thread to length, try for 2" screwed into the floor and just enough to catch the nut on top.
Install the all thread, use vise grips to turn, some wood glue on the threads helps. Wrap the all thread with the cut spindle. Tighten nut with large washer through the handrail. Repeat every 10 spindles. cover the nut and washer with a matching wood plug.
Thats some cool woodwork!
dustin
WOW
I would tread very carefully. Beautiful staircase.
I wish we modern carpenters had a chance to build stuff like that.
Seems like everyone wants a house built fast these days. A staircase like that would take some serious time.
I know some people on the board still get to do jobs like that, but I don't have clientele like that.
I'll think about this one.
How are you going to dovetail the bottom when they are already cut to length and toenailed? Or am I just missing something. Are you going to use a glue like PL400?
Rich
How are you going to dovetail the bottom when they are already cut to length and toenailed? Or am I just missing something. Are you going to use a glue like PL400?
I was going to machine a piece that could be glued/screwed to the bottom of the baluster. The handrail is already low at about 32" to the top of it. My first thoughts are to roll back the hardwood floor a couple rows, so I could get a router/jig set up to cut the sockets into bottom rail.
PL Premium is what I was thinking. Definitely something polyurethane that will expand and fill the gaps.
Like someone mentioned before, I'm going to cut some oak shims to drive into the really bad existing dovetails.
It's not too late, it's never too late.
Edited 9/20/2008 11:55 am ET by dustinf
Dustin
How much can you do to it? Meaning are you at liberty to completely rebuild it?
I've redid some old railings, not quit as elaborate as that one, but some of the same principles.
I would not try to add any newels but thats because I think it would detract from the original look. Also where are you going to get the eases and goosenecks that are required to transition into the newels? You'd have to either make them or farm that part out, either way a lot of time and money!
I think rebuilding the whole thing using glue, PL where applicable would go a long way towards tightening the whole thing up.
I'd us PL on the dovetailed pieces cause that will fill the voids from the shrinkage that has occurred. Glue dowels on the horizontal pieces where you can. Gluing dowels will be problematic in that you are going to have to have a lot of help setting the rail down onto the doweled pieces. You can not just stand the baluster in and add fillets anymore!
It is certainly worth fixing right though, beautiful handrail.
Doug
Gluing dowels will be problematic in that you are going to have to have a lot of help setting the rail down onto the doweled pieces.
I'm going to try to do this without removing the handrail. It is in perfect shape, and the joints are all still super tight. No way to remove it without completely destroying the existing clear coats.
The scariest part of this entire operation is the patina of the finish. The pictures don't do it justice. It really is perfect. 100+ years of use, not abused, and regular upkeep by the house staff.
That's why I was thinking dovetail on the bottom. I could retrofit dowels into the top, pop them in place, and then slide the dovetail in.
Literally, I dreamed up another idea for the dovetail last night. The bottom of the balusters is about 1 3/4" square. If I cut the dovetail piece I'm screwing to the bottom 1 1/4", I should be able to get the baluster in without much fight.
When I get back to the house, I'll get some pictures of the 3rd floor dance hall. Unbelievable space.It's not too late, it's never too late.
I'm gonna chime in real quick and probably stir up the stink.
I'd NOT use any PL glue ANYWHERE. Use a glue that is reversable, like hide glue or White PVA. Shims, yes. If god forbid something like a runaway piano hits that rail, and it needs a rebuilt/ intensive fix, someone will hunt you down if it is glued as suggested.
Hot hide glue is steamable, and reconstruction entails that first step..I'll bet anything that it was hide glue originally, and it has both dried out and dusted away, or got consumed by microbial action..it does that.
Reglueing will swell the wood , using shims and new glue, it'll last another century.
Just saying..I've done this in old Philly homes.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
Ok Sphere I'm going to get some hide glue this weekend & try it out. Any brand which you feel is better than others?
Behelns is one that I recall, I don't have a recent batch, but I have a jar of the dried glue from years ago. I wasn't referring to Franklin's LIquid Hide glue in a store bought bottle, I mean the real deal, cooked in a glue pot or double boiler.
The new all liquid has plasticizers in it and mold inhibiters and god knows what else.
True hide glue is dried and comes in various states of strengths, "Glass chipping" is a good strength, IOW. A drop leftto harden on a hunk of glass, will actually pull a chip when pried off.
If worse comes to worse, a PVA like elmers white is also reversable with vinegar and hot water injected or steamed into a joint. Just like hide glue.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
Sphere
Just to stir the pot a little more! Why the hell do you want it reversable?
If that piano does go down the steps and destroy part/all of the handrail the least of your problems is going to be how to get the glue unbonded.
I do like Mathewsons advice on the shims but I'm thinking I'd probably still go with the PL, just my opinion and certainly not the final word on it. I dont plan on my handrails having to be taken apart so the PL doesnt bother me to use. Plus I'd bet I could salvage a handrail that was put together with it if it was truely worth salvaging. Hide glue has been shown to last a finite amount of time, especially under stress such as a handrail takes. I think there are other products that last longer.
Hide glue is a great product but not the best thing offered today. When I'm restoring an antique and it has significant value I'll use hide glue but not for architectual work, otherwise there are going to be some really pizzed off carpenters somewhere down the road when they see how I put some architectual elements together.
Again, my word is certainly not the final one on restoration of handrails so it's not my intent to diss your advice.
Doug
Well, bein as niether of us are actually DOING the job, I guess it's a moot point..LOL
I just know what I was taught over the years. Like a doctor "First do no harm" and the many mentors I have had, would have me believe that it was good enough then and is good enough now. I consider that staircase an antique, and would treat it as such.
To ME, using PL or a poly glue is akin to driving it full of sheetrock screws..it's a sacriledge (sp) to go and FU a previously well made work of art, by making permanent alterations that can't be undone without causing more damage.
But hey, I'm funny that way.., you know that..(G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
so i guess the thought of using a color matched epoxy to tighten up the details isn't the best.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends a lot on a few variables.
Skill applying the epoxy, justified by as is condition, level of finish expected by the owner, are / were other options considered and weighed as what will achieve the most desired while maintaining integrity..all those are issues I deal with daily.
If it's up to me, I do the best without leaving tracks of my passage on things such as that. A little more detective work can save a lot of headache and or taking the sledge hammer to swat a fly.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
I can add..thick vis. Cyanoacrylate is often an overlooked fix. Yes, acetone will reverse it. It can be mixed with wood flour of the same species and hit with accelerant for a filler that is sometimes all that is needed. It can be injected into the joints, with a simple syringe.
A swift blow can often shock it apart without the wood being affected adversly, depending on the glue build and penetration into the parts.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
If there was any way possible, i would remove all the balusters and dowel bolt (hangar bolt) em all, add some epoxy up top and it will be very tight. However, the dowel bolts would require that the balusters be screwed in which may not be possible. If you could dowel bolt every 5 it would still help a lot.Beautiful rail though, I would love the opportunity to do that work.
I tend to agree with you--especially on the idea of reversible repairs on an historic railing. People always seem to tout PL and other polyurethane glues for their "gap filling" ability, but if you use them to fill gaps, they are weak. Unless you think something that has less stength than Styrofoam is something you want to repair a railing with! Epoxy is what you want for gap filling, but I still think that even just carpenters white or yellow glue and wood shims is the way to go.
It's pretty obvious what the original builders had in mind, glued ( or not) at the top and dovetailed at the bottom. A dove tail by design needs no glue in one direction of assembly. It is largely a friction fit.
Re-fatten the dovetails so they are snug-up-able and half the battle is won. Seems years of shrinkage and continued wiggle has loosened some joints further, probably crushing some wood fibers..
TLC goes a long way further than a gob of PL. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
People always seem to tout PL and other polyurethane glues for their "gap filling" ability, but if you use them to fill gaps, they are weak.
Thats a pretty broad statement if you dont know how big the gaps are. PL does fill gaps and it doesnt make for a weak joint, provided that the gap isnt all that big, again we dont know since we cant see them. I'd guess that the gaps in this are not all that big since the dovetail is probably at most 1 1/2" wide and a good chance less, only so much shrinkage can occur with that much wood.
Another point, this aint a piece of furniture, dont matter how many times you or Duane say it, it aint! Its an architectural element.
Doug
I'm with Sphere. DO NOT use epoxy, PL, etc. Hot hide glue is OK, as he said. I think Woodcraft still sells a good pot -- it's worth buying one, forget trashing your double-boiler.But you’ll be better off, and so will the next guy, 75 years from now, if you can avoid glue completely./I did an easy repair to a stair with a similar no-post construction, built in 1840. I removed each nosing in turn, pulled out the cut nail that pinned in the dovetailed baluster, screwed the baluster to the tread, and put the nosing back on. When I got to the second floor, I found that the stair section provided the landing section with all the stiffness it needed, and the repair did not preclude future work on the stairs, as epoxy would have.In my case, the main newel was on the first floor, with no ceiling in the basement. There was a tenon on the bottom of the newel with a wedge running through it. One trip to the basement, a couple of whacks with a hammer, and it was good as new.I think you’ll be surprised. But if it’s still too loose for your liking, try wiggling each joint in the railing. If any are loose, you should remove the plug (probably destroying it), and tighten the rail bolts. If you’re lucky, balusters are currently covering the holes -- easier to remove and replace without damage than plugs.Another fix for the landing would be to remove the trim under the nosing, and screw up into each baluster end. A few nails in running trim are much easier to deal with than all of those toenails, and the trim will hide your work when you put it back on. If the corners of the running trim have short, radiused transition pieces, leave them in place, and skip those balusters. These pieces were usually bandsawn, not steamed, so they tend to break if you so much as look at them. Doing the straight runs only should be more than enough.Drill and countersink for all your screws, and use a good screw like a #10 Twinfast. Don’t use a screw with self-countersinking nibs.Note that one reason my repair went very easily was because the original builder DID NOT use glue.Good luck, and let us know how it went!AitchKay
>>Just to stir the pot a little more! Why the hell do you want it reversable? My understanding is that is rule number one in restoration or other work on significant stuff.If you've read any of the preservation/restoration article in FHB (or any of the retoration mags) a common part of just about every article is "well, first we had to undo the effects of a prior, under-informed restoration attempt."And often that "under-informed" means "we've learned a lot since that technique was 'state of the art.'"
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
You got it. Rule #1.AitchKay
Hey, Dustin,From some of your detail pics, maybe there is no removable running trim under the landing nosing. If that is the case, you can't use big flathead screws, as I suggested. I'd pre-drill for GRK trimheads instead, then. Trimheads don't suck things up as tight, so clamping from the top of the railing to the ceiling beneath would be a good idea.AitchKay
Bob
Hide glue was the glue of choice when this stair way was built, because it was the only choice!
Hide glue becomes brittle, not good in an application where there is going to be a lot of lateral pressure, both fore and aft, applied. Therefore I'd say the hide glue is a bad choice here, almost guaranteeing that someone will be repairing that thing sooner rather then later, how is that a good idea.
If you've read any of the preservation/restoration article in FHB (or any of the restoration mags) a common part of just about every article is "well, first we had to undo the effects of a prior, under-informed restoration attempt."
Bob, I've read plenty on the subject, been to several classes regarding the subject. Never has any one of the instructors said that we should rebuild architectural woodwork with inferior products. Now if your talking about restoring a fine antique piece of furniture then yes, you should use the same thing that was used when it was built, even if it is inferior. I've watched furniture conservators repair a piece of cockbeading on a Chippendale chest knowing full well that it was going to fail but they teach you to redo it the way the original craftsman did the work. This is just one example of what a conservator deals with but in the rebuilding of architectural elements they should be built to last, not last several years so that someone else can redo them, again.
The idea is to build a house to last as long as you possibly can, not so that someone can redo it a few years.
Big difference between architectural elements and fine furniture. Regardless of what anybody thinks, these stairs are not furniture.
"Under informed" does not mean that the person that redid the work necessarily used methods that were not reversible, could mean that the guy/gal just plain didn't know how to do the work and did some halfazzed fix. Maybe on the balusters they cut the dovetail off completely and toenailed them down thinking that that would suffice, could be any number of "under informed" scenarios to chose from.
Doug
I agree with Doug completely. We are talking about construction of houses not furniture. Futhermore having seen some pics of his work I'm more inclined to listen to his advice than to argue.Keith
The problem with you saying hide glue getting brittle is right but missing that if the joint is shimmed as needed , the glue's brittleness isn't a factor.
The glue is only to ease reinsertion and swell the tails. Think like water between two panes of glass..the suction is incredible. So's it go with a PROPERLY fitted glue joint. It's only brittle when in a fat line type of situation.
Thousands of guitars are still held with hide glue in crucial joits, esp. Dovetail necks.
And if it has held for a century, why not repeat?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
I appreciate what you say about hide glue, I just believe there is a better product out there now. I use hide glue quite often, just not for architectural rework.
I'm not real familiar with guitar construction but I've seen a few of them, even held a couple famous ones in my hands! But, the pressure on a guitar neck, although crucial, is not the same as a handrail that gets constantly pushed back and forth/stressed, that's where I believe the hide glue will fail. I understand that the wedges will allow the flex to occur in the wood as opposed to the joint, that's why I've said that I thought that was a good fix as well. I just have a different opinion on the fix.
Doug
Awe c'mon, lets argue! LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
I agree with Sphere. If at all possible, stick to reversible glues.
Doug's advise sounds to be what you need.
I've only re-worked one & found that adding small shims to the dovetails helped greatly in tighting the rake portion.
The only other thing which you may want to consider is using the Domino instead of dowels for the level runs only because with the add-on indexing attachment it would speed things up.
As Doug said it will be more than a one man job lowering the rail back into place once the balasters are Domino'd/dowel'd in.
This could be the answer to your prayers. Seriously!
It's reversible and could be done to the balusters one at a time.
Check out the video clips.
http://www.lamello.com/en/products/invis-system.html
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_hi?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=lamello+invis&x=0&y=0
Edited 9/25/2008 6:09 pm ET by reinvent
Lamello-Schmello!Don't do it!
Sphere said it early on: "First, do no harm." Removing and replacing every single one of those toenailed-in balusters will do a lot of harm -- maybe just small chips and splits, but LOTS of small chips an splits!Leaving as much as possible in place, and adding discreetly-hidden screws is much safer, less intrusive, and follows the rule of "First, do no harm."If you have to go back and get more invasive, you can always do that later. Do as Sphere does; think like a doctor, especially with irreplaceble historic woodwork.AitchKay
Nobody said you have to remove every baluster. Use the Invis system on every 5th one and see how it does.
Hi, reinvent,Those look pretty cool! It would be interesting to try them out -- we can all think of times when we wanted a magic connector like that.I don't think I'd use them on a job like this, though. Even with an MRI-grade magnet, which, of course, it doesn't have, I can't imagine getting the connectors more than finger-tight, if that.But one of us BT types should try them out sometime. I'll give you a holler if I do.AitchKay
You should contact Lemello and see if they have a sales rep in you area. If they do, ask them if you can try one set up to see if it would work.
Shoot! I don't have time to respond right now. I've done many of these, some as elaborate as this some not. Some of them I did the wrong way, but they're holding well still after 25 years or so.
I'm with the restoration view. Figure out how it was done. Take it apart, number the pieces, reglue it with the reversible hide glue...it really can stink! Where the bottom tail is let into the outer stringers, (it might be dovetailed, pull the old fastener and use a screw that will not break....not a sheetrock screw.
Remember, since there are no posts, you need more lateral support especially on the uppers. If they were toe-nailed, then pull it and do the same except with the glue. If you are going to toe nail, I have used ribbed finish nails like a ss siding, because of the holding power but you will have to predrill every one and above all...GO SLOW! The ribbed nails may be against restoration standards but the do hold.
Oh Geez....I'm late!!!
Good luck.