New Windows Frosty – Is this normal??
Hello All:
I thought that I would run this past you guys and see what you thought. I built a new house this past year and this is our first year in it. I expected to no longer have the ice in the window issue because I purchased what I thought were excellent vinyl windows.
Here a are the facts when these pictures were taken. Outside temp was -13F. Humidity overall in the house is around 32%. The normal interior house temp is 67F. As you can see in one of the pictures the thermometer is 49F. It is apparently pretty cold sitting on the extension jamb like that. That is our four season room and the temp that day was in the middle of the room was around 55F (we keep the double sliding doors closed to keep some of the cold out.
The windows are Sovereign by Revere. Triple glazed with a U value of .23.
I spent a lot of time sealing up the house to make it very energy efficient. I did things like build foam boxes for the can lights in the attic. Did a lot of caulking and foaming (professionally) to prevent air leaks.
Replies
thats why i never use vinyl unless specifically requested. do you know if the extruded frames are filled with foam?
problem is the frames around the glass and the frames around the sashes are usually hollow, so there is no real insulation value of the frames and when next to cold or warm glass, will condenseate.
also, vinyl windows usually use only brush pile w/strip around the sashes which dont do much for blocking air.
not to say your windows have these issues, but those are good enough reasons for me to stick with full width clad windows.....
Dan Lynn, Dan Lynn Construction, Joliet, IL
QUOTES TO LIVE BY: 'The bitterness of poor quality lasts far longer than the sweet taste of a low price....' 'Anything worth doing is worth doing well' "If it was easy......ANYBODY could do it"
The frames are not insulated with foam. I considered using an awesome mfg in Canada (Thermotech) that uses fiberglass with foam filled frames but they were asleep at the wheel in getting me the quote. My brother in law has those windows and has no problems.
They do have a double vinyl seal (these are casements) for keeping air infiltration out.
I chose vinyl because me father in law, who knew a lot about building, suggest that I not go with wood casements and instead look at vinyl. I wish that I had gone with fiberglass.
I really feel sick about this whole thing. I built our dream house (I was the GC) and now I feel I have junk windows in our 300 grand house.
Did you install an HRV ( heat recovery ventilation ) system ? If you did , tweak the humidity control to balance the amount of humidity in the house. Up here in On tario it is required by code.Vinyl windows are no problem with this system.It is not the windows but rather the amount of UNCONTROLLED humidity in the house.
I do have a Lifebreath 155MAX HRV installed. It runs 24/7/365 on low. When someone takes a shower there are 20//40/60 switches installed to evacuate the moist air from the bathroom area. When these switches are depressed they ramp up the HRV speed to high.
the other posts have good tips too. vinyl arent junk, but in really cold weather they show their stripes. wood windows may still sweat a bit on the interior, but most likely wont frost up.
the other thing i noticed is the jamb extensions against your windows. if you didnt back-seal the wood, it may darken with the moisture over time.
the standard vinyl window with 3 1/4" protrusion doesnt let you use as much insulation as a standard depth jamb frame. the inside face of the window is only about 2" away from the exterior cold, which gives you only half the rvalue of a 2x4 wall, unless you have 2x6 wall framing or insulated behind your jamb extensions too.Dan Lynn, Dan Lynn Construction, Joliet, IL
QUOTES TO LIVE BY: 'The bitterness of poor quality lasts far longer than the sweet taste of a low price....' 'Anything worth doing is worth doing well' "If it was easy......ANYBODY could do it"
> wood windows may still sweat a bit on the interior, but most likely wont frost up. Any window will frost up if it's cold enough and there's enough humidity.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
There's currently maybe 3 threads already going this week after the cold snap.
You can look around for them to gather some questions and answers.
But, what's the const. of the addition, did you paint, is there any air movement at all in that room-heat, ceiling fan..........?
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"currently maybe 3 threads already going this week after the cold snap."Do you notice that every year there are about half a dozen threads with the same question after things turn cold?The window salespeople recognize it too and know they will get a flurry of complaint calls with the first cold spell.I see with these ones, that a lot of the frost is right at the stop joint where the sash meets it, so there must be some infiltration going on there.vinyl shrinks and expands a lot with thermal change too, so that means a tight fit is not entirely possible.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul, Timing is everything..........
I've installed some vinyl, some fibreglas and many wood and clad windows. With the situation and the weather, probably all would see sweat/frost on the bottom 1/2'' of glass. What I was surprised to see I guess is how the frames had sweat and then iced going up the sides. This I think the result of the hollow frames being completely filled with nothing but cold air rather than infiltration..........but, as mentioned the movement swings in vinyl is greater than you'd see with wood so-bummer if the shrinkage is compromising what weatherseal sweeps exist in the frames.
When do you think the next question will show up. Might be a good betting situation we could all get involved in.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 12/23/2008 7:02 am ET by calvin
"When do you think the next question will show up"Now that i've been gone eight hours, it probably already has!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Google this, with the quotation marks: "windows do not cause condensation"Plethora of info from many sources.......View Image
Would anyone be interested in purchasing 24 beautiful (and energy efficient ;) windows from my new house. I would be will to go 50%.
Here is a link to see them as they are installed.
http://www.picasaweb.google.com/upnorth1993
JJ,
Do not panic..just listent to DanH.
The 4 season room is colder and the RH is higher.
Maybe open those sliding doors to the heated house when it is really cold.
Edited 12/23/2008 11:37 am by homedesign
The dewpoint by those windows. (49F, 41%) is 27.The dwpoint i the main part of the house is (67, 32%) is 36.http://www.decatur.de/javascript/dew/index.htmlBut apparently the warm air is keeping the windows above the condensation point..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
The dewpoint by those windows. (49F, 41%) is 27.
Bill,
Thanks for the link..The window sill is not frosting over or showing condensation.
I wonder what the temp and rh are near the surface of the window?
Edit to say: I guess I do not get your point..please explain
Edited 12/23/2008 5:32 pm by homedesign
JJ,
I just looked at your photos.
Is the 4-season room below/above a heated space?
Why did you not just include it within the thermal envelope of the house?
You spent big bucks on the windows? What is the advantage of not including it with your house?
Were you trying to save money by not heating/conditioning the extra volume?
Heat loss is not a function of volume..but rather of the exterior surface area and r-value.
Edited 12/23/2008 12:13 pm by homedesign
Edited 12/23/2008 12:16 pm by homedesign
The 4 season is above the heated space below. The lower level has infloor heat in the entire lower level.
I was keeping the doors closed because it was cooler in the 4 season room (even with the doors open) so I figured I would just close the doors to save on heating that area, since I am such a tightwad. In 20/20 hindsight, maybe it would be better just to keep the doors open?
I did keep the heat registers open out there, even with the doors closed but considering the number/size of windows the ductwork appears to be having a difficult time keeping up because of minimal airflow (another issue I'm afraid).Oh...by the way..... I have built everything in that house except the kitchen cabinets (wife wisely told me not to do it because I don't have enough time).
JJ, Nice photos.
I like "the sweat equity" and the "pay as you go" approach.
I noticed a few missing doorknobs .. Beats the hell out of a loan.
This is the third thread today.
You don't say where you live, but I'm guessing the temp outside is toying with zero, if not below that. The temperature drop was fairly sudden, right?
You have a new house, and new wood and drywall is pretty damp. It takes about a year to dry down to normal. So there is extra humidity in the house.
The "four season room" is being kept cooler than the rest of the house, but the humidity is about the same as the rest of the house. As temperature goes down, relative humidity goes up. So you're going to have more severe condensation problems in that room, especially right after a major temperature drop.
Use the "fart fan" when you shower and take other steps to reduce humidity in the house, and give things a chance to equalize.
We had some frost on the windows the first couple of days after the cold snap.
Also, the setback thermostat was set to low overnight and it got to cold on the house.
No more frost after the first couple of days. Just turn up the heat a bit on the real cold days.
There is a lot more to a window's quality than its glazing's "U" value. While the glazing may be excellent, hollow vinyl extrusions are poor insulators. Controlling the humidity will help with the frosting, but won't do much for the window's overall performance. At least you don't have to worry about rot when the frost starts to melt.
I have a hard time thinking of any vinyl window as being excellent.
it appears from the flip tabs attached to these, that they are sold with an option of interior energy panels. That tells me that the manufacturer recognizes that need. Buy and install them.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
The flip tabs are for the interior bug screens which we have removed at the moment (winter time only). To my knowledge there are no energy panels available, and really, why should there be when they advertise super energy efficiency with triple glazing. (some sarcasm in there directed to the mfg)
Edited 12/23/2008 8:01 am ET by jurassicjet
Most of the glass shops around here do sell custom sized interior storms that would fit that same spot as the screens go. I believe it would help a lot, but much of the problem seems to be the lack of infill insulation in the vinyl frame.don't let it hurt your relationship with your FIL though. Old fahrts mean well...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Most of the glass shops around here do sell custom sized interior storms that would fit that same spot as the screens go. I believe it would help a lot, but much of the problem seems to be the lack of infill insulation in the vinyl frame.
Piffin,
Ok... I'm confused(nothing new) but if you put storm sash on the inside isn't that the same as using curtains? Will it not just make the window colder?
An interior storm panel / energy panel has an AL frame like a screen, with a rubber seal so when those clips snap in to hold it in place, there is minimal air infiltration. But the quilted curtains have gaps all around. Also, moisture can move through the curtains even if they are tight with velcro as some do, but the glass stops that.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I dont know where you are located, but -13F is COLD. In my area we might see that extreme only a couple times a year,if that often.
A new house does take a while for all the excess moisture to go away.
If it was my house, i would probably wait a year and see what happens, no matter how good the windows are they are still probably the coldest thing in the house and if you have excess moisture, that is where it is going to condense. These being in a room that is only partially heated doesnt help any.
Although I'd like them to be, and no matter how hard you try, no new home is perfect