What are my options?
First, I have a round bow at the front of my house. It is a varing radius starts out at 21 feet and decreases to 10 feet before it once again increases to 21 feet.. In addition The edge of the roof is rolled down on a 2 foot radius..
There isn’t a way to hang a gutter if I could figure out how to get a copper gutter like the rest of the house has bent in that wierd decreasing radius.
I was hoping that the radius would allow a dipersal of rain to keep from damaging my lawn.. That wasn’t to happen. I now have a nice groove matching the drip edge..
I could set a rock path and deal with it I suppose but that would look tacky.
I could use brick like my sidewalks are but that agin looked tacky when I stood back and looked at it..
Any suggestions?
Replies
Grant and his crew do radius copper pretty frequently, I have done a few when working for him. I don't see the big deal unless you have no skilled workers around.
I see a lot of talk about the gutterless approach and gravel trenches, but being as I was introduced to bending and soldering, I'd go that way.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "
Me.
Sphere,
Much as I'd like to there is no way to hang the gutter similar to the rest of the house (no rafter tails) In addition the complexities of getting down spouts to take the run off preclude it really. If you look at the pictures of my house at 94941.7 I think you can see the issues involved..
Edited 6/30/2008 1:04 pm ET by frenchy
I looked at the two photos at that discussion link. The detail doesn't show well but it seems to me that a gutter could be fabricated to fit that curve. You need to ignore matching it/hanging it like the gutters on the rest of the roofs. This curved roof is different, so why shouldn't the gutter be different also? Get ahold of a good sheetmetal guy or custom metal fabricator who can think.Edit to add:
If you really can't do a gutter and don't like the stone walkway idea then you might consider commissioning a local artist to do a metal or stone art piece that would be located right in the drip line. A competent artist should be able to make you a piece that is visually pleasing, breaks up the runoff, and enhances the site.
Edited 6/30/2008 5:20 pm by sapwood
sapwood,
I'm back.
I have talked at length to several local fabricators and the amount they want to take my gutters and bend it to that radius is,..... well..... shocking!..
More for simply bending that one piece than I've spent on putting gutters on the whole house thus far. (by several times!) Plus since I've done virtaully all of this myself I'm reluctant to turn something over to a metal fabricator.. I've done far more complex work myself already.
In addition hanging it would be my problem and as there are no rafter tails to mount the brackets on I would need to fabricate those as well not to mention the problem of mounting them when I have several layers over them and no real way to see if they have hit a place strong enough..
It would be realitively simple if I had access to the top then I could measure and mark down. I don't and creating access would damage what is carefully sealed up.. (another words I could spend more than a month simply locating where to hang the rafter tails)..
In addition if you notice there really is only the corners to put down spouts in.. Really in heavy down pours the down spouts are already maxed out not to mention the underground drain pipe etc..
If I more than doubled the amount of water going into those down spouts they couldn't handle it and then rain would spill over the gutters anyway..
Stone walkways are a major code violation.. We have strict hardcover rules and anything that interfers with asorbtion of rain water must meet city approval. I can get a small stone easement but as I've said before I'm worried that that would result in a lot of stones in the grass.. River rock I think would be acceptable to the city but again I worry about scattered rock..
The piece of art is differant but I wonder, we're talking about nearly 50 feet total area and my mind cannot fathom much other than some form of snake?
When you say a "decreasing radius", isn't it just an ellipse?
If you can get a round gutter I don't see why you couldn't get an elliptical gutter.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Frenchy-
I can't get the search function to find that thread. It just keeps showing me threads where you've told others to go to that thread.
Give me a link, please or tell me the name of the thread.
If I see the situation and there's any way to get gutters on it, I can figure it out.
http://grantlogan.net
"I could have had Miss September...... I couuld have had Miss May. I could have had Miss November, but I waited for December....." ZZ Top.
Grant,
Try here.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Thanks, Jon.http://grantlogan.net
"I could have had Miss September...... I couuld have had Miss May. I could have had Miss November, but I waited for December....." ZZ Top.
If I'm seeing right, and following the topic here, I gather that the issues isn't so much making the gutter as it is how to hang it. From what I can see a free hanging system seems to make sense. It's not attached except for the heavy wires suspending it below the drip edge.
Optionally, you could make up some custom brackets that follow the profile of the rafter ends. --------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Ted W.
Without rafter tails to bolt the brackets to, simply hanging a gutter from the roof will result in much of the rain missing the gutter.. That radiused roof sends a great deal of water out over the gutter unless the inside edge of the gutter is aligned almost with the roof and then you have the 6 inches of gutter to catch the majority of the rain..
Oh it doesn't happen in a light rain so much but when God turns on the fire hoses with the gutter projecting nearly 6 full inches I can still see a good thrid of the rain missing the gutter completely..
I sure would like to see a better snapshot of what were working with here. Any chance of that happening? Even a sketch would be helpful. Just having trouble picturing it without something visual.
--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Edited 7/1/2008 2:05 am by Ted W.
Ted W.
Did you go to the place called chateau Du Dampier? 94941.7 the second picture on the page has a nice view of what I have that works and the first picture has a picture of the roof with the bow.
Yeah, I took a look but can't quite make out the second picture. What I thought was rafter tails, but now I believe I'm looking at corbels. Yes? That's what I was referring to in my post about possibly making custom brackets, when I thought they were rafter tails.
From the first photo I can't quite see why the gutter can't be directly under where the drip edge would be. Where the water would miss the 6" gutter during a heavy rain, would it overshoot the gutter? Or does it turn under the edge of the roof and kick back behind the gutter? If it's the later I would think a drip edge would send the water straight down. But if it overshoots the gutter I don't see what could be done about that, at least nothing that would be aesthetically pleasing.
Maybe a Japanese rock garden? But I'm really trying to come up with a gutter solution.
Maybe we just have to sleep on it. There's always a solution, we just haven't found it yet.
--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Edited 7/1/2008 2:36 am by Ted W.
Ted W.
Yes those are angle headed brackets. Cast bronze ones (about 15 pounds each) holding up the gutter about every 2 feet. They are attached to 4x6 black walnut rafter tails which are screwed to the timbers in the building..
You are correct in that in a heavy rain it simply overshoots the gutter unless that gutter is aligned with the drip edge on the inside and has the whole six inches to catch rain that overshoots.. The picture doesn't show it well but there is a copper drip edge that prevents rain from undershooting the gutter..
I weigh close to 300 pounds and I can hang from my gutters, they are that sturdy.. They need to be that sturdy because there is an awful lot of weight on them when they fill with Ice and snow in the winter.
That is the real issue with the front.. even if I could find someone who would affordably curve my gutters that decreasing radius How would I attach them in a way that would carry all that weight.. No rafter tails to lag bolt into. That plus the down spouts would be an issue. In a heavy down pour those down spouts are full dumping another 38 feet of rain off the roof into them would simply cause them to over flow. There aren't a spare set of drains in the landscape and putting some in would be a massive and disruptive mess of a freshly planted yard..
The simple solution needs to be affordable at least for a while untill I have some cash.. It's been nearly 11 months since I last drew a paycheck and we are quickly draining all of my savings..
OK. I see the problem. IIRC, you've got half round gutters on the house. There are HR hangers for that application.
I've made gutter for a number of round turrets. The HR I've fabricated in the shop. Ogee we normally fabricate on the turret.
To make the HR gutter up, build a plywood table (4x8 will probably do) and lay your radius out on it. Figure out the longest piece of gutter you can use w/o making it look too choppy, but still conform to the radius. Cut a 6" or so wide slice thru your layout radius a little wider than the gutter. Cut a bunch of pieces of gutter in the length you've determined will work. Assemble them upside down on your plywood using the hole you cut to clamp the pieces from below. After you've clamped two together fitting your radius line, pop rivet them together, then repeat until you've got the maximum piece that you can easily handle. You may be able to do your whole turret in one piece.
After you have the pieces riveted securely, flip the whole thing over and solder from the inside.
http://grantlogan.net
"I could have had Miss September...... I couuld have had Miss May. I could have had Miss November, but I waited for December....." ZZ Top.
seeyou,
Well I can't "hang" gutters and have them catch the majority of heavy rain.. due to the radius of the edge much of the water will pour right over the edge of the gutter.. Instead I need to align the inside edge nearly with the edge of the roof and then the 6 in gutter will catch most of the rain..
If you can flip a few pictures back (or is it forward?) you'll see the solution that works for me. However that requires rafter tails and in building it I don't have any way of "seeing" or measuring exactly where the rafter tails are to screw the brackets too.
Rain and or snow & ice are extremely heavy requiring a really solid mount.. Nails won't cut it. Lag screws are all I will trust in this application but without a solid timber to screw too the weight of rain and/or Ice & snow will soon pull out nails..
Not to mention I drew diagrams of the actual roof and no metal bender I could find was willing to do it for anything less than the national debt..
Yeh! It's a matter of cost. (since I've now been unemployed for almost 11 months..)
I'm pretty much left with my own resources and ingenuity.
In my previous post, I told you how to do it. There are hangers for this application. Aren't there rafters or some sort of supports holding the radiused roof sheathing?
http://www.classicgutters.com/Nehemiah/00000038.htmlhttp://grantlogan.net
Come on guys. If you're Festing, it's time to pay up. Half of you have already wasted that much on beer and #### this week already.
seeyou,
If you look at the second picture on that page you'll see how the gutter needs to project out from the roof in order to catch rain overshooting in a heavy down pour.. To do that I needed rafter tails tho hang the brackets on.. there are no timber frames in the bow that's all stick framed and done by eye for a pleasant curve.. Then the bottom was covered with 3/4 inch plywood and finally that was covered with black walnut soffit..
The result is it's nearly impossible to calculate, figure, or see where to attach any rafter tails. Lacking heavy rafter tails to bolt to I can't use those heavy cast bronze angle figured brackets that the rest of the house need to hold the weight of the ice and snow that collects in them during our long winters..
Right now I weigh nearly 300 pounds and I can do a chin up anyplace on my gutters. Those gutters need to be that strong in order to survive here.. Simple aluminum gutters and straps are often pulled off, due to weight of ice and snow sliding off the roof..
Oh by the way, all the gutters did come from classic gutter!
You just keep saying the same thing over and over again. I got it the 1st time. You CAN install gutters on that turret. I showed you the hangers and told you how. If you don't want to put gutters up fine, but why'd you ask?http://grantlogan.net
Come on guys. If you're Festing, it's time to pay up. Half of you have already wasted that much on beer and #### this week already.
Grant, sorry if I'm dense, but Frenchy's got wood roof shingles that roll over the edge where there would usually be a fascia. Once you had the gutter made, would you just face-screw the brackets to the surface of the shingle? Or somehow attach it to the soffit?
would you just face-screw the brackets to the surface of the shingle?
Nah. I'd figure out where the framing was and pull a shingle. Screw thru the bracket into the framing (actually the sheathing would suffice, but Frenchy wants to hit the framing), then re-install a shingle over the bracket. I'd put the brackets under the 1st course.From what I recall of the photo, they're pretty much verticle at that point.
Those brackets are stainless steel and come straight to be bent to whatever pitch is necessary.. They could have reverse bends put in them so that the back of the gutter was about even with the bottom edge of the shingles. And then Frenchy could hang off them.
Thanks for asking that question, Mike. Frenchy's method of communicating frustrates me and puts me on the defensive. Hopefully this will help with his problem.http://grantlogan.net
Come on guys. If you're Festing, it's time to pay up. Half of you have already wasted that much on beer and #### this week already.
Thanks for asking that question, Mike. Frenchy's method of communicating frustrates me and puts me on the defensive. Hopefully this will help with his problem.
I speak French(y)
;-)
Mike,
Where have you been ? Haven't seen you logged on often lately - Summer vacation perhaps ?
Walter
Lurking and working.
And visiting with visitors.
Playing in the garden.
Vacation this Friday though!
seeyou,
Will your straps hold a thousand pounds or more of ice and snow as it slides off the roof? The answer I found out for myself when I selected the method I used was no!
Second I cannot determine where the rafters are.. In order to make this I had to eyeball everything and then it was completely covered up.. The roof has three layers of 1/4 inch plywood and the soffit has two layers of 1/2 inch plywood.. Covering the soffit I have 1 inch thick black walnut boards.
I do not trust nails to hold that sort of weight..They might if correctly sized and used in shear however this loading would put them in pull.
Will your straps hold a thousand pounds or more of ice and snow as it slides off the roof?
If done right they'll hold as much as any other gutter on your house, but that's not what they were designed for. A gutter system is to carry liquid water away not to hold thousands of pounds of ice and snow as it slides off the roof. That's what "snow guards" (or what ever the local name for them is) are for - to protect the gutters and anything else below.
What you're asking the gutters to do is akin to ramming your truck into a concrete wall and then saying the truck is a piece of junk if it got damaged.
That's a very impressive house you're building for yourself and I salute you. But problems like this could have been solved on the drafting board instead of after the fact. I guess we all live and learn. Good luck with your problem.http://grantlogan.net
Come on guys. If you're Festing, it's time to pay up. Half of you have already wasted that much on beer and #### this week already.
seeyou.
If you've followed my design and construction you'll realize that I designed this place to be near as bullet proof as humanly possible.
It's designed to withstand a F5 tornado, be as nearly fire proof as possible, I've used decay resistant woods throughout the construction, I've been hyper energy efficent, and in general tried to anticipate any disasters which could befall it..
That means I have 16"+thick walls that really are bullet proof. The gutter system is designed to withstand virtually anything I can dream up including a sudden massive snow slide on the roof..
(all this while being a totally unique design)
Meanwhile since I cannpt duplicate the gutters on the rest of the house I really was asking about dealing with the resulting drip line in the lawn. Seeing if anyone had a unique or differant idea that I might incorporate.
If the yard has (or can have) the pitch, I vote for the really nice French drain. I saw some real beauties in Paris. Cobblestones on the sides, with a narrow run in the middle of narrow stones laid in the same direction as the water will run. Note sure if I got any pictures, but I'll take a look.
Bryan Sayer
Yes it is great for that sort of solution. Nice pitch away from the house. I was thinking of doing something with either stone or bricks as I have plenty of both but the curved part has me flummoxed. small stones would probably work the easiest but I'm afraid tend to be messy..
I just looked and didn't see any pictures. What I remember is imagine the double yellow line of a road. Use stones about 1" X 4" or so to make two rows, or maybe even more if you think you need it. Standard perf. pipe drainage underneath, but put the holes up. Along the sides lay somewhat larger stones perpendicular to the lines, plus some type of edge treatment to hold the stones in.You can use either steel, or mortar in a soldier course of some type for the edge.
Would the rainhandler system work? I don't know if they make a bendable one or not. You might contact them and see:http://www.rainhandler.com/
You think a rainhandler will hold 9 million pounds of ice?http://grantlogan.net
Come on guys. If you're Festing, it's time to pay up. Half of you have already wasted that much on beer and #### this week already.
"You think a rainhandler will hold 9 million pounds of ice?"That is 9 million pounds of ice, plus frenchy hanging on ..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
9,000,300 #
But...
Hot air has buoyancy....
Well, I think with it being out of the plane of the roof it should be fine. As for Frenchy, if he's up there on the roof with all the ice, he's crazier than we all thought.
nater,
Especially on the 27/12 pitch part of the roof <grin>
Thanks for confirming my mental status, does that mean I can get one of those handicap parking signs now?
Won't that load be offset by the wind from the F5 tornado?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Bwahahahahttp://grantlogan.net
Come on guys. If you're Festing, it's time to pay up. Half of you have already wasted that much on beer and #### this week already.
"I really was asking about dealing with the resulting drip line in the lawn. Seeing if anyone had a unique or differant idea that I might incorporate."Well I had a suggestion but you chose to ignore it. If I lived in your town, I might just pop on over and maybe be inspired by the site. But I live a long way away and I don't think I'm too unhappy about that. To ask anyone for a really creative on the ground solution when all they have to go on is a few photos, is plain unrealistic. If you want some REAL input, your going to have to consult someone versed in creative design and who can visit your home. There are many good and not too expensive solutions for your runoff problem. The problem, I think, is that you don't have a solution so you think no one else has one either. You seem to be filled with "can'ts" and not enough "that's worth considerings."There, I've said enough..... maybe too much.
sapwood,
Well in the past I've found a few really good suggestions here.(yet none from site visits) Plus please note the inspiration for the curved roof came from Fine Home Building. Many of the techniques and methods I've used came from that magazine as well. This is my first and only home that I've built..
If there are too many can't's or not suitables it's because I take the time to explain carefully what's involved since others have been kind enough to write their ideas..
I've had numerous suggestions of using gutters which I clearly do not find suitable.. At least not for this application.. I do have nice gutters on most of the house which you can see in the pictures.
For various reasons which I've set out numerous times prior Gutters won't work.. (nor will disperal devices)
If by chance I didn't respond to your suggestion I really didn't intend to offend you.. I'll take a moment and go back and review what you said and come here again to respond directly to that suggestion..
How about just building and mounting the gutters the way you described and then just putting support posts under the gutters every 4' or so? Well, maybe every 2', since its going to have to hold 9,000 lbs of ice, snow, and whatever else falls out of the sky. But then you would have to figure out how to design some posts that would be able to with stand potential lava flow and........ :)
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
On the odd chance that the Breaktime mind guild can't
figure out a good gutter for you,
The slope is in the right direction and the drainage doesn't look bad.
Does a drip line really mess anything up?
This is the first time I've seen your house.
Very nice, I'm glad I've finally gotten a chance to appreciate it.
Edited 6/30/2008 6:34 pm ET by Henley
Henley
I'm sorry I posted a reponse to you much earlier and Unfortunely It didn't take..
To repeat,
Yes exactly! The drip line is not a real problem. The water drains nicely away from the building but I'm wondering what to do with the drip line.. The grass has a large divot where it's falling but stones/river rock etc. turn me off. I'm worried about them getting kicked into the grass. bricks would wind up being major pain in the #### cutting them to fit that curve.. Same with stone I think.. Remember the radius varies..
I need some inspiration. I've pulled my hair out trying to think of a solution.. Someone will come up with something so brillant and simple I'll kick myself..
I'm not a fan of gutters. I'd vote for a path that is really a French drain but with pavers or nice flat pieces of sandstone or bluestone or something not slippery set into a field of smaller stone or pea gravel, river run or similar. Integrate the pathway into a rock garden with hens and chicks, saxifrage, ferns and other such plants woven into the rocks. Could be a very nice feature if done right.
Danno.
I agree that is what's called for here.. something in the drip line.. Maybe I need to go over to Fine Gardening?
Anybody know how to send pictures from here to there?
soooo... plant some bushes, since nothing else will work, and you can't figure out a way to contain some rocks... Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Snort
Bushes in the drip line do not do well they usually are damaged in notable ways by the fall off.
I think you can click into that site and choose to post a discussion topic and attach your pictures same as you do here.
Thinking again about your problem, maybe the powers that be wouldn't notice (nor would it violate the spirit of their law) if you dug a trench about a foot wide and a foot or so deep, lined it with landscape fabric and filled it with rocks, sand, gravel or some combination of those things. Water would percolate through it and not cause damage to landscape. You could insert decorative big rocks, sturdy metal or concrete sculptures, even low walls that rise and fall from and into the trench. (Could have dragons sunning themselves on the walls.) Could also insert plants in containers, although plants would probably survive better not directly under the drip line but in front of or in back of it.
Maybe experiment--try different things, but I think the main core element of this would need to be some sort of French drain or dry well (trench) to allow the percolation of the roof runoff into the soil without causing erosion. Start with the trench and add the decorative elements a little at a time and see whether they "work" for you. I think this would be a fun project--if I lived anywhere near you, I'd be trying to get you to let me have a crack at it!
Was thinking about this again and have perhaps a better, far easier solution.
There is a concrete "block" that you can get that is really a grid (I always called it Belgian Block, but that's not the real name for it--any masonry supply place should be able to get it for you).
You dig a trench and fill it with compacted gravel (I'd also use landscape fabric) and then you place the concrete grid and fill the spaces in the grid with topsoil and plant whatever you want in that.
I used it for pathways for firetrucks at a senior housing project and just planted grass in it like everywhere else in the lawn, but it was solid enough to allow firetrucks to drive across the back yard in an emergency. This stuff woulf prevent erosion from the water falling off of your roof, and from the ground you can hardly tell it's there. On the highrise, the only time you could see the grid was by looking at it from one of the upper floors.
Permeable (?) paving is the generic name.But I don't think tht it would work here. I would slow down the problem, but you still have the high velocity water hitting the earth and washing it out. It would just limit it to a number of small erosions rahter than one large one..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
you need to think a-la frenchy simply make the pavers out of locally sawn black walnut
and seal the offending soil with shellac!!!!
stephen
LOLThat is a good one..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I posted a post to myself, then realized you may not read it--anyway, please see my last post (#50?) about "Belgian Block"--a concrete grid you can plant stuff in--I think that would be the best solution to your problem.
yeah then head voices can get ya..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
I told my wife about what Frenchy wanted to do (or, more specifically, what he didn't want to do) and my suggestions, and she thought I was crazy for even wasting my time thinking about it, but I enjoy such "puzzles." Some people have Suduko, I have Breaktime!