We are interested in becoming owner-builders in a few years and understand the planning process takes at least a few years (hence our starting now).
We don’t have any construction experience but are two very astute learners and feel we’d have a good working knowledge of the jobs we’d subcontract. There are a few things we’d do ourselves such as running cables (Dh is does this professionally for IT work), painting, putting in fixtures/fans, and possibly tile work, hanging pre-made cabinets/sinks/countertops. Basically the ‘easy’ stuff that dosen’t affect the structure.
I’m having a hard time finding previous owner-builders to discuss this. The only person I’ve talked with was a GC that said they wouldnt’ even GC their own house so we shouldn’t even try. Is this really a far fetched dream?
Replies
As the unofficial resident expert on losing money building spec houses, check out the Spec House from Hell thread.
If you can go through that and still want to build, you might have what it takes to build your own house.
This wouldn't be a spec home (although I'm not 100% sure of the term yet ;) it would be a custom home.
al.. go for it..... we built our first house in '72 ... still standing.... we built it for $27K..
like junkhound.... ours took two years.. we did all the carpentry..
subbed elec, plumbing, drywall, well drilling, and excavation....
worth about $500K right now, if you wanted a quick sale
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/5/2006 9:13 am ET by MikeSmith
Go back into the archives and read all the posts in the thread about U-Build-It. The young lady of the house, a sharpie named Kacy if I recall correctly, tells the whole story from start to finish, with great photos, and great input from a lot of the regulars here.
Read the book "House" by Tracy Kidder. Go to the website for the TV show Hometime and buy their video series on contracting to build your own home.
Get everything you can from your local library about housebuilding and read it, particularly those that talk about the self-contracting side of things.
Some way, some how, get a set of plans and specs that represent what you are going to build, and make sure that the plans depict something that is truly buildable, and meets local codes. A purchased planset from a plan-selling outfit always needs to be gone over in detail by a local architect, or building designer, or engineer, or all, so as to get in all the changes so the planset meets site conditions, and calls out things that meet code.
An outfit like U-Build-It can be invaluable in coming up with all the subcontractor resources you'll need, or you can start now and go out and do the legwork required yourself.
I know you aren't building a spec house - That wasn't the point. That thread gives a unique picture of some of the many things that go wrong during the building of a home. If you can face stuff like that and keep going, then you've got what it takes to build a house. ANYONE can build a house when the weather is nice, you're on budget, and things are going well. But do you have what it takes to keep going when the weather is terrible, your subs don't show up, you're 2 months behind schedule, and $20,000 over budget?
Halloween and Thanksgiving have been canceled in Arkansas this year.
Seems the witch left and took the turkey with her.
""ANYONE can build a house when the weather is nice, you're on budget, and things are going well. But do you have what it takes to keep going when the weather is terrible, your subs don't show up, you're 2 months behind schedule, and $20,000 over budget?""Sounds like my rehab/flip project right now. Only its 4 months behind schedule because all I have to work on it is weekends. The subs have been impossible to coordinate over there. I found out Cape May is short for Cape "Maybe I'll show up for work this afternoon and/or tomorrow if the fish aren't biting". I have been "importing" subs from MD on weekends that I have worked with on other local projects.
Hey bp,
Waay off topic. Tried to send you a personal email but the way your profile is set up doesn't enable.I am leaving Friday for a long weekend in Cape May. Happen to know if anything is happening with surf fishing now...stripers?Todd
Check out Boss Hog's thread on the spec home from hell. It is worth the journey. It is where you can and may go. Sort of like the money pit movie but with believable characters & situations.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Dorothy, you forgot all your dam junk in the garage. Auntie Em.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Wow, what did I miss?"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Welcome.
It helps to add some information in your profile (right click on your name).
We built our first house when in 20's, had 2 kids under 5. No loans ever. Bought and stockpiled plumbing, elec, etc. for 3 years prior to start of build, very cost effective. No GC or subs at all. We did 100%, all the design, drawings, every shovel of dirt, every nail, septic, elec, plumbing*. If you are quick studies like you say all the knowledge needed is in the library and here.
Probably easier without kids, pretty much like both of you working 2 jobs. Took 2 years from clearing the site to moving into partiall finished house.
If you like to go to pro sports games or take a vacation every year, forget it, forget everything else for 2 years. If you can't work 14 hour days and then spend 2 hours with the kids for 2-3 years straight, this route is not for you. Also helps to have built stuff when a kid and have some engineering education.
That said, totally building own house is very satisfying, DIY all removes the contractual worries of hiring, etc. , and the financial aspect is awesome if you choose the right location.
*If you still ask Elaine what here least favorite job of all time was, it was melting kegs of tar in a 55 gal barrel for the builtup roof.
Edited 3/5/2006 9:12 am ET by junkhound
Ditto. It is possible to take too big a bite. After working all day, built a 9500 square footer with an indoor pool. Took 5 years and winters are cold here. I'd do it again, but my wife, and chief assistant, wouldn't. Love the house!
My advice for the beginner; Get details on paper of EVERYTHING before you start.
In addition to U-Build-it, there is also President Homes and HomeWorx (and others). These outfits may be a good fit for what you want to do - and - they make financing for such an undertaking more accesible.
I think the biggest problem with owner builder is, you cannot seperate the emotions from the business. You will overbuild but not increase the value.. 2+3=7
maybe this is a dumb question, but could you give some specific examples of 'overbuilding but not increasing value'? are you referring to things that don't increase resale, but might be important to the current owner? or things like overinsulating, that don't have a good ROI?
I overbuilt my house. I blew the budget. I got concrete block walls with cells filled with 5000 psi concrete. I have R 80 in my attic. I got 2x4 walls with r15 in the wall , all of them, even interior walls. I got 200 amp service with 12 gauge copper wire and 20 amps plugs. I have copper piping. metal roof on 3/4 plywood decking. concrete driveway. concrete patio, concrete porches. 4 ton heatpump on 1100 sq feet. Solid panel wood doors, stainless appliances, whirlpool and wood burning stove. and it still worth less than the everyday stick frame spec house.. could not seperate the emotion from basic building.2+3=7
Edited 3/6/2006 8:21 pm by brownbagg
A. John's comment is a key: something you'd like to do
An absolute must
B. As to all the assumptive comments that 'you cannot save money' DIY - kinda like Frenchy's 'new vehicles are always lower cost' in another thread.
"Cannot save money" is total BS if total DIY, which IMO is the only way to go. Agree that trying a GC role is simply more hassle and time than just doing via DIY every individual job, but see A. Also, if one has disablities, that is a whole other story.
See Mike's numbers on the 3rd or 4th reply - factor of 20X beats infaltion and even housing escallation in most markets.. In own case, lotta capital gains also, cost was only about $18 sq ft when escalated to 2002 (the last year I did an indexed escallation), but does require foresight, planning, and 'giving up' TV, vacations, sports, movies, etc for a couple of years. In hindsight, figure those 2 or so years were worth over $1mil in todays dollars. If one is inherently a lazy slob, the 'cannot save money' assumptions are correct.
Art, I'd have to go back to see if someone said "cannot" save money, but I think most (and myself) mean that you won't save money unless you're able to personally displace the skilled labor. If you hire out plumbing, wiring, framing, tile, excavation, flat work, trim...you're not gonna save money. The original poster mentioned a limited background. I doubt he's handling all those tasks personally. He's not going to save money just by supplanting the GC and a manual laborer or two.
Not trying to nit pick, but "he" is a "she". And I agree with everything you just said. :)View Image
Yes I am a 'she' :)
I think we're going to go the Ubuildit route. I talked with them extensively today. Either way we cut it we have to have something to build first so we're creating our own floor plan with visio which we're taking a few different floor plans we like and mod'ing them to fit what we want. Its smaller than I originally thought I wanted which is great (less to build). I thought I wanted 2000-2500 sq ft plus garage w/work room, attic and patio but it's going to be around 1800 plus those things. Def. knocks down the archy fees.
I am looking into this because I think it is something I would love doing and we've talked about building our own home since before we got married (wow, 7+ yrs ago...).
Crystal
My job as a mother is to work myself out of a job.
Crystal,
Congrats on taking this on. 3 years is alot of planning time, wish I'd had it. My wife and I decided to build , bought the land, and got a home plan in 3 months, then took 12 1/2 months to get it done. I sided, laid the wood floors and tile floors, hung the cabinets, hung all the doors, all the trim, interior paint (except trim), built the stairway and railings, and about 200 small little things that would have never crossed my mind before we started. I helped several of the subs as well just to learn new things.
Going the U-build it route is probably a good idea. I had two thing going for me when I decided to do this. My best friend is vice pres. at a bank in the construction loan dept. he had lots of contacts (people like to keep their bankers happy), and the loan process was very smooth. Another good friend is a GC and was in the middle of building 10 homes, the subs of his that I used performed to his high standards. Having good, tested subs is crucial to getting your home done right.
My advice is to start your research now. Open houses at the local developments helped us see what is being built, what the standards are, and what others are looking for. This may be your dream home and you have no plans to sell anytime soon, but you don't want to stray too far from the norms in case you have to sell. Doing a funky design or layout may fit you, but it may also limit who would be interested in the house, and possibly how much you get for it. Anything to strange may also limit who you can find to work on your house and how much they'll charge you to build it.
Once you have your plans, start scouring the net, and local sources for deals. I found travertine and Hickory floors online, as well as all my plumbing fixtures. My appliances I found at three different places, and saved lots. you can get package deals on those however so it may be better to go that route.
Start taking pictures. It is alot easier to show someone what you want then try to explain it. If you see something you like, take a picture or tear that picture out.
find out your heating, insulation options. find the standard practice for your area, then find out the right way to do it. Spending extra up front for a high efficiency house can cut your monthly heating/cooling significantly. Ask down in the heating column here, lots of florida people.
lots more, can't think right now, and I have to get home. I put pics of my house in the photo column, its under "the money pit" Keep asking lots of questions, there is so much that goes into a house that you don't see, your in for a real rewarding education.
D
Crystal -
I have owner built two houses - the second one went much better than the first!
While you are researching - take a look at the book "A Pattern Language" I read the copy in my library a few times. So many folks design there place with no respect to where the sun rises and sets, public and private spaces, how they actually live etc. In between some very strange ideas are some great principles for house design.
One temptation is to over do things on house features. I tried everything in my first house, but didn't use half of the special features - money down the drain. The second place is simpler and smaller, but with nice details.
I have a job where I can move the schedule around, so the O/B thing worked for us (plus I've built for years on the side) I have made more on house building and appreciation than my salary the past few years (non-solvent equity, of course)
It is great that there are folks out there with the guts and ambition to go for something like this - best wishes!
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
to continue the theme...would you mind listing some of the features that you feel were wasted money?
What special things did you add that later turned out to be a waste. Curious. Would not want to do the same thing.
You'll just have to find out for yourself...
just kidding - mostly we built too much house for the area:
27' high cathedral t&g ceilings, tons of glass in the south elevation, timber framed beams over half the interior (huge reclaimed heart pine beams (10"x15"x39') that I should have cut into flooring and sold for thousands of $), coffered ceiling in office, built ins everywhere, geothermal HVAC system (which we loved, but it didn't help resale), concrete counters, custom cabinets, radiant heat in the bonus room, custom stone masonry heater (most people can't tell it from a fireplace, but I put my heart and soul into making it), custom iron and walnut railings, sliding barn doors inside, huge loft, cedar siding, commercial range, top end appliances, and a real nice pole barn etc. Everything was so custom, and that took lots of time...
All in all it sold for about what a similar sized tract home would, and I could have saved a lot of effort if I stayed in the mainstream. But I thought I would live their forever, until my best friend and I found a big hunk of land for our families.
I did the work in my spare time (moving into the garage apt first, then the house) and we did make a profit, so no regrets (but I wish I still had those beams) The family that lives there now loves the place.
If I ever build a spec house, it will look like all the others, so it will appeal to the broadest market.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Could someone do me a favor and reply to me in this thread? This thread is still popping up under "unread messages to me" as the result of a deleted post to me.
I tried to think of something intelligent to say in this thread that would get a response, but it's just not happening tonight. The dentist did a number on me tonight and my brain is just flatlining.... (Yeah... blame it on the dentist... that'll work)View Image
I think that it has to be the person that posted the orginal deleted message.But we will see.
Ya fixed it.
Thank you much dude.View Image
This thread is still popping up under "unread messages to me"
And it probably will for four weeks + one day, if it behaves like a similar one I had a couple of months ago.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I know I saved money on both my owner-builder homes. Both had gone out with comprehensive bid sets to GCs. The plans and specs were tight as a drum.
On both, I ended up GCing them and subbing everything. I made no changes . . . meaning I ended up with the same house I RFQ'd to builders . . . both times.
Saved $55K first time as compared to lowest bid, $72K on the second.
>On both, I ended up GCing them and subbing everything.Well then I stand corrected. Good for you. Can you expand a bit on how the money was saved?
I cannot really say how the money was saved, other than the fact that I was avoiding a GC's markup on everything, and his profit.
I know that many here will say that an owner-builder cannot get the same price on building materials as a pro builder, or the same kind of pricing when it comes to subcontractor bids, but I beg to differ.
I ran into suppliers that offered trade discounts, and I told them unless I got the trade discount, I would not buy. Most of the time, I was able to prevail.
Same with subs. I explained to anyone I was talking to that I expected a fair quote, in writing, and in exchange I would treat them as a professional, communicate clearly about schedule, and pay promptly when billed, for completed work.
I cannot really say how the money was saved, other than the fact that I was avoiding a GC's markup on everything, and his profit.
The problem, for me, is that I don't know of any builders making 55-75k markup and profit, per house. So I'm having a hard time understanding how an owner-builder could save money that isn't there?
Most builders have to log actual time on the jobsite, which is figured into their profit and overhead picture. As well as administration costs. So they just don't have that much (55-75k) "markup on everything, and...profit".
Their overhead labor and administration costs take a huge chunk of their piece of the pie. And those labor and business costs cannot be supplanted without some type of cost. To my knowledge, anyway. What do you know that I don't? Or am I just misunderstanding your statements?"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
My hard costs were $331K and $422K respectively. And I know how to count.
For my first job, I was able to get two actual professionally-prepared bids. One was $386K and the other was a little more, not much. I was building in a lakes area of second homes that was experiencing a boom.
On the second one, it took me forever to actually get a written proposal of any kind. I was moving somewhere where I knew no one, and did not feel comfortable at all going the o-b route, so I genuinely sought a GC. My problem was that once again, I was building in a place that was having an explosion in vacation home construction.
The two written bids I got were not even bids at all. I had requested lump sum proposals based on a very complete bid package, but all I got were cost-plus "estimates." One had a total of $525K and the other was a little under $500K, but it was incomplete. Typical cost plus terms here go 10 and 10, or a total of 21.1 percent.
What I was willing to do on both jobs was shop supply, whereas many builders don't feel comfortable going outside their regular ring of suppliers.
My hard costs were $331K and $422K respectively. And I know how to count.
So what did you figure your time at per hour, times how many hours per project? And you still had a $55-$75k savings, after including your labor cost in your hard costs?"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
As I said in the posts, Huck, the first one I did was 100 percent subbed. My time was planning, buying, scheduling, coordinating. I was at the site infrequently. Probably about as much as if I had hired you to build it for me.
Don't forget that an owner that hires a GC to do a custom house will spend a whole lotta hours with an architect, or buying and modifying plans, then time spent in meetings with prospective builders, then reviewing proposals, then choosing, choosing, choosing, all the countless things that require product selection. Some clients will say that all that time spent just plain wears them out.
A whole lot of the work I did was done with me at my desk at work, mostly during lunchtimes and in the 6:30am to 8:00am timeslot when it is easy to reach suppliers and tradespeople. I don't consider that as having a cost.
On the second project, I was retired, so what else is there to do with one's time than work on what excites you most and brings much satisfaction? That is why I don't consider my spent time as having cost.
But now, Huck, I am a real builder, beyond the spec house phase (which by the way is far more profitable than working for a client) and I account for all my work time, and charge accordingly. I have even adopted the philosophy of charging for proposals!
Ok well DH and I set our sites on a floor plan last night, we're modifying it in visio to take to an architect.
I think we're pretty minimalist when it comes to 'accessories' for the house. I'd rather spend the money on extra/higher quality insulation and windows/doors to cut energy costs. There are just a few things i'd like to have just to make life easier which are mainly structural like
hard floor in dining area
walk in shower in master
his/her closets
mudroom/laundry room off garage
coat closet in entry
expanded pantry in kitchen
The only 'upgrades' I thikn I want would be a screened porch. Medium grade appliances are fine, I dont' need dual ovens or anythingCrystal
My job as a mother is to work myself out of a job.
>Ok well DH and I set our sites on a floor plan last night, we're modifying it in visio to take to an architect.What do you want the architect to do? Formalize your design? Add in design expertise? What if the floor plan isn't efficient?My least favorite start to a design project is being sent a floor plan. I feel like I'm starting with a hand tied behind my back. There have always been flaws in the plans offered, and I hate that the first major interaction is one where I have to tell someone why their ideas won't work as drawn. Of course I word it nicer than that, but it takes effort that could be spent better elsewhere.Design isn't floor plans. It's about planning spaces, and sight lines, and flows, and more. A "contributed" floor plan can be more limiting than you'd expect.The best starts are where the client can describe themselves, their lifestyle, their habits and hobbies, their likes and dislikes. The rest of the list in your post is great, and most helpful. Pictures of houses, or parts of houses, that you like are fine. Descriptions of adjacencies--we want the master br near the kids' br's and separate from the guest room--are very helpful. Floor plans, though, are more of a hinderance than a help. To my perspective, one should no more take a floor plan to an architect/designer than they should take a truckload of precut 2x4's and trusses to a builder.Of course, if that's what a client brings, I'll be nice about it. But it's usually a lot of work to steer them away from flaws in the plan without stepping on toes. Maybe in the future I should add a "floor plan surcharge" of 20%, kinda like the builders who'll allow homeowner-contributed labor, but add a surcharge for the time to supervise and fix mistakes. :)
"Design isn't floor plans. It's about planning spaces, and sight lines, and flows, and more."
Yea, that's what I was trying to figure out how to say, here and in the store-bought vs. architect thread. At $80 per hour our architect was reasonably priced for the SF Bay Area, but with a challenging remodel the total cost was substantial. Still, worth every penny - the feel, flow, and positive energy that the space generates are impossible to put a price on. For a spec, yea, whatever. For a home that the OP is putting years of time, passion, sweat, strained relations, etc. into I'd consider a good architect a bargain.
CloudHidden,
My wife and I just bought some property in Tennessee and are starting to think about home designs. We know what we want in terms of spaces, proximity to each other, desired featrures, etc. Can you help me understand what the differences might be in cost and likely outcome if we were to take our must haves / desires to an architect along with architectural styles vs. modifying a stock plan we like to meet the must haves / desires?
Thanks.
Terry
Well, I sure don't want to be the poster child speaking out against stock plans. Instead, I'll speak in favor of quality, however you find it. Start by knowing yourselves well, and documenting that so you can share it if necessary. Document what you can about whomever will be living there, what you own, your hobbies.Here's an example. Real client. Husband goes to work one hour after the wife in the AM. He wants to sleep that hour. So that implies that the master suite setup needs to be one where the closet and bathroom project neither light nor noise into the sleeping area. That affects room layout, door placement and opening, lighting placement, etc.Another example. Client tries to do the nice thing and spec a sewing room for his wife. Going merrily along till I get a chance to talk to her alone. Takes 10 minutes and some tears by her to pull out that she doesn't want a sewing room, she wants a ballet bar! He was assertive enough that her desires weren't finding their voice.Continuing...if you thoroughly know yourselves and what you want/need, and you know your building site, and you know your budget limits, then you work on the best way to get what you want. (If you don't know this stuff, then probably someone needs to help ask the right questions.) You gotta decide if you'll be able to identify all the elements you need by looking at existing plans or if, as with the two examples, it'll take a third party to extract the best info. You also gotta decide if you want a truly custom fit from the house, or if something less than that, something more generic, is close enough. And of course, each of those has a cost, so be sure to identify ALL the costs, and what's provided for that cost. With a designer, look at prior examples and check references. See what services they provide--I talk with the builder regularly and help them with questions about materials, products, finishes, etc. With stock plans, seek references and try to assess how much additional work is needed, if any, to make the plans fit your site and needs.That's a start. Others will have equally valid perspectives. The key is to commit to a level of quality--design and construction--and use that as your guide, whether you go custom design or pre-designed, and whether you go custom-built or tract or manufactured housing.
Side bar: Sounds like the house will end up sold in a divorce anyway. Sewing vs Ballet?????? Hello! Is there any comunication in the marriage?
People keep asking "what do you figure your labor is worth".
Naturally people have different ways of looking at this issue.
I ask, when you go fishing how much is your time worth? Well if you can work and get paid $40/hours, and you go on a fishing trip one hour drive each way and four hours on the water you DARN well better caught $240 worth of fish right? WEll, if you value your time, then you better bring home the fish.
The point is many people build there own home because they want to just like people go fishing because they want to.
Secondly, most people don't work for themselves. They get a pay check. Therefore if they spend one hour building their house it does not come out of their pay. Unlike, you contractors or other self imployed people, who if they spend one house building their house they DO FOREGO ONE HOUR that they could have been working and making a buck ($40 as above) which in turn could be used to pay a contractor. Not so for most people.
But then again, maybe the guy just wants to build his own house.
Personnal I beleive you can build a house yourself and save money. ANd yes that money is the value of the labor. Just like a guy saves money by mowing his own lawn. It is EXACTLY the same thing. And I mow my own lawn not because I like to but to save teh labor cost. A guy can build his own house and not like it but do it to save the labor cost. Of couse it is a big project and would likely be more sucessful and easier on the family if you liked doing at the same time.
Just my thoughts
Huck,
I was an O/B too. I talked to two builders in our development about building our house once I had a set of plans we liked and some bids on materials and some of the subs. Both are very successful custom builders and one of them is now our neighbor. Both had either just finished, or recently contracted to do a house very close to ours in size, layout, and level of finish. They both did a quick estimate based off the prints, material list, and my sub bids so far, as well as the houses they had just bid/completed. They were within 10 grand of each other. My final costs came in at 12-15% lower than their estimates.
Most of the subs and yards the builders referred me to don't give contractor discounts but most did offer me 2-3% discounts if all bills were paid within 30 days.
I did all of the low voltage wiring, half the regular electrical, painting, insulation, and a small amount of the trim work. I figure I saved about 14,000 doing these things. the rest I subbed out. Altogether I saved about 45k over their bids Now of course this number doesn't include my own time spent on the job which over 10 months probably added up to maybe 8-900 hours. But the majority of the time I loved working on the house and so the time spent wasn't like work for me, it was more like a hobby.
However, I was lucky. I didn't have any major problems building the house other than delays. "Most" of my subs were great to work with and all said they would be glad to work with me again. It did take a lot more of my time was a lot more stressful than than I expected. Assuming my wife will let me, I will do it again.
Regards,
Dennis
Now of course this number doesn't include my own time spent on the job
Herein lay the problem, for me as a contractor. At least as far as people claiming huge savings because of inflated contractor markups. It does seem that a contractor can make a pretty hefty profit on a house - as long as he pays himself nothing for his time! "he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Pardon the interruption gang.
Someone posted to me in this thread and then deleted, so it keeps popping up under "unread messages to me". Just trying to remedy the situation.
Carry on.
:)View Image
Huck,
I certainly never intended to imply that contractors have inflated markups or make excessive profits. In fact my experience showed me just the opposite; how much hard work goes into building a home by all the tradespeople, the GC included, for not a lot of money. Well OK except for maybe my plumber, he just charges too damn much. :)
Regards,
Dennis
Saved $55K first time as compared to lowest bid, $72K on the second.
Stinger, I always cringe a bit when I hear someone say something along those lines. I guess I'd like them to conditionalize the statement a bit more, because I think whether you're remodeling or owner-builder'ing, you need to factor your own time (and spouse/kids/friends 'free' time) into the equation.
Typically I keep track of not only costs, but also time spent. Saving $20k is great, but if I have to spend 4k hours doing it, it isn't really a good deal.
jt8
"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Read my earlier post in this thread about the first time around. I was working a day job, long hours, the jobsite was 55 miles from home, and I was not there too often. The time I put into it was mostly on the upfront planning and buying end.
For the second one, I was retired. I considered the time I put into it fun, not work. On that one, I worked with the trim carps for about 11 weeks (yes, 11 weeks of trim work!).
I consider the savings genuine.
you won't save money unless you're able to personally displace the skilled labor.
Which is very tricky and varies (widely) by location.
In town, I need permits for every thing but a "Morgan"-style shed (and that must be under 150sf with niether plumbing nor electrical). Everything permitted will then need either a licensed trade contractor and/or a sealed drawing. That does not leave a lot of room for DIY.
Going out into the County, a bit less is needed--but, the plumbing & electrical will need some one with at least a JM. Slightly funny, that--you could build an unsafe structure on a questionable foundation--but the electrical & plumbing will be "right" . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Junkhound is absolutely right: you can save money if you displace significant hours of skilled labour AND you do it right the first time. But that's not what the OP said that she and her dh wanted to do, and it sounds like they're not anywhere close to being up to doing a total DIY job. Pretending to be a GC won't save anything, and actually being GC on a single job is way more work than most people figure.
Even GCing some of the work is risky unless you really know what you're doing and pick good subs. My brother learned that the hard way. Picking the low bid for an excavation contractor for his own addition was the first step in a chain of events that ended up with him losing the house.
My DIY addition experience has been fantastic- I wouldn't trade the feeling of accomplishment and confidence this project has given me for the world. But it hasn't been without sacrifice, and it's not done yet, nor will it be "done" any time soon. For me personally, doing this totally DIY was the only financial option worth considering, but it wasn't merely about the money. If the experience was of no value to me for the joy and personal growth it offered, we'd have just sold out and moved to a larger place.
The design decisions that made it possible for us to live in the existing house with minimal interruption by the addition work have made all the difference. If I want to work for an hour after the kids are down for the night, I can do it without a minute's lost time. No need to drive, pack and unpack tools etc.
I'm working on an owner-builder project now, and your upgrades sound a lot more logical than the ones I'm seeing. This is a spec house, mind you, built by a non-professional - with an investor partner - who thought he could do it himself, have some creative fun, and save some money.
For starters, this whole-house renovation has been going on for two years now, and its not over yet. I don't know exactly what went on the first year and a half, but I've been on board, t&m, for about 6 months. This is what I've seen so far:
$5000 in cabinet upgrades, without asking the cabinet sub what these extras were going to cost. Just kept ordering upgrades (i.e. elaborate crown molding, elaborate base molding, elaborate carved corbles, fluted-column planks, heavy-duty full-extension drawer glides), saying I'll pay the extra cost, no problem. Turned a $10k job into a $15k job. And (maybe not surprisingly) the cabinet shop was PO'd, because he ordered his cabinets like 6 mo.'s before he was ready for them, so they sat in their small shop taking up floor space for all that time. The cabinets look fancy with all that elaborate trim, but the installation is out of square-plumb in areas, and looks like crap to me (admittedly, most people walk in and say Wow, love the fancy cabinets!).
Had plumbing and electrical run to the island, with no need for it. Figured a potential buyer would pay more knowing it was set up for future addition of a sink/disposal.
Upgraded to all solid-core six-panel doors throughout the house. Upgraded to ball-bearing hinges. Then the doors came out pre-hung with standard hinges, and the ball-bearing hinges in a box. And they are not interchangeable! The trim is 1x6 across the top, with a small crown molding at the top and a small beaded molding at the bottom, 1x4 sides, and 1x10 baseboard with a small cove molding on top. But the guys who did the trim didn't do such a neat job, and the interior doors are hung very sloppy. I'll probably have to go back and try to clean them up, or they'll sell it as-is, with doors binding, huge gaps on the hinge side, etc.
Paid for insulation in all interior walls, but didn't check to see what insulation they were using. So even though he's got insulated interior walls, he's only got R-19 in the attic. I told him R-38 is the minimum code will accept here, and it was written right on the inspection card. I don't know why the inspector missed it on the insulation inspection, but he also missed the lack of title-24 foam insulation around all doors and windows. It was never put in. They'll never catch that, now, but I told him they may check the attic on the final, and make him re-insulate to get R-38. Expensive to do now, as the attic is barely accessible at this point, and completely inaccessible in some areas of the house.
Paid a fortune to refurbish the original wood casement windows. Tons of labor stripping, sanding, rebuilding. Had a local glass shop put the new glass in (single-pane, totally energy inefficient in a desert climate with continuous weeks of 100 plus degree weather every summer), and they did a really sloppy job of silicone caulking the panes in (divided lite windows). And they didn't finish by applying glazing compound, just left the exterior side unfinished. Which he plans on leaving that way, despite the fact that I told him its completely unprofessional, and unlikely to pass final inspection that way. (He's run out of money now, and scraping to get enough together just to get the place fit to put on the market - and he's asking $500k!)
The windows are poorly built in terms of weatherseal. These are inswinging casement windows. Totally impractical for use with mini-blinds, curtains, etc. His response to all of this is "I hate vinyl windows - they're so plasticky and cheap looking!"
I could, but I guess I won't go on and on, but I'll just wrap it up by adding: His dealing with sub's has been very unprofessional. He didn't get detailed descriptions before work began, so he didn't really know what he was agreeing to. He didn't break progress payments down to logical segments, because he didn't know how. So some of his subs got paid ahead of their work, and then he had a really hard time getting them to finish. He didn't schedule his subs sequentially, so they were constantly getting frustrated with being called to do work he wasn't really ready for. Several of his subs were paid in full without a detailed inspection of their work. When defects started showing up, he had to hire new subs to come out and make corrections.
As an example: he got a bid for landscaping and flatwork. Then his landscape guys said they could pour the back porches, if he had me do the formwork. Red flag - and I told him so. A good concrete guy knows how to build forms, or has a form guy on board. OK, I did the forms - some pretty elaborate porches with steps, and 45 degree angles on everything - no rectangles anywhere. Then they tore all the forms up while loading block in the backyard. Paid me, t&m, to come out and re-build the forms. Then when they poured, they left the forms in place overnight, and tried to finish the next day! The concrete was set up by then, so now the steps have indentations where the forms were. So now he's talking about putting tile or slate over the steps/porches, to cover the defective workmanship.
He's paying me t&m, and much of what he's paying me for seems like throwing money away, to me. For example "meet me at the window/door supplier, so we can go over what trim we need to get." Then I'll spend two hours going over options while he agonizes over every little decision. Tick, tock, tick, tock.
But, he's a nice guy. And so far, the checks don't bounce (they're a little slower arriving lately, however!). But I know he's used up his budget, his investment partner is PO'd at the overages and slow progress, and they're dealing with banks trying to get enough money to finish up. And check this out - they have two other brand new houses, in framing stage, not dried-in, just sitting for months now (in the rain), with no money to go anywhere! A fourth house, another renovation, done with a separate partner, is less far along than this one, and they're having major parnership issues. Probably splitting up, but still in negotiation at this point.
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
YOWSER HUCK!
Your job sounds like a doozy.
Those two specs sound like some decent prospects for an investor. Where did you say you are located?
blue
"could you give some specific examples of 'overbuilding but not increasing value'? "
I did several things on the "spec house from hell" that I don't think increased the value.
Using 5/8" ply on the roof instead of 1/2" was the first. If they can't SEE it, it doesn't exist.
I put in nice cabinets with solid wood frames. People only look at the doors.
I bought a high quality dishwasher and installed it. But the front looks just like the cheap ones at the appliance store.
I did all wood trim, nicely sanded and stained. People can see that, but no one appeared to care. I think I could have slapped up cheap white plastic trim and hollow core doors and they wouldn't have known the difference.
I put in $15 a yard carpet rather than $8 a yard stuff. But all people looked at was the color.
I put down expensive underlayment, glued and stapled to the flooring manufacturer's specs. But once the $25 a yard kitchen flooring is down, no one can tell the difference.
Plenty of insulation in the attic. But again - If they can't SEE it, it doesn't exist.
I used a good line of wood clad windows. But I don't think anyone cared. If I had put in the cheapest vinyl windows I could get and drop the price of the house, that would have been fine.
The toilets are Toto brand. But to most people, they aren't any better than a cheap one from the big boxes.
I did a firestop between the house and the garage. (Not required by code here) I don't think most people even know what that means. All they wanna know is if the garage is big enough to get their SUV into.
I put in plenty of hone jacks, and wired the whole house for 2 phone lines. No one cared.
I also put in a lot of cable TV runs into wall jacks. But no one thinks of that until they try to hok up their TV.
Can you tell that I'm a bit cynical?
Ever wonder what's wrong with people who spend $2 for a little bottle of Evian water? Spell Evian backwards.
Can you tell that I'm a bit cynical?
I can tell you're cynical, but the question remains: why?
All of those things were important to you, but not to the buying public. You have to satisfy your market, not your own interests.
I wouldn't think of living out in the country in open farmland, but we are putting a sped out there right now.
blue
You kinda missed the whole point. He asked what kind of things could be "over-built" into a house that wouldn't necessarilly add value. I answered his question with some examples that I did. All of them added cost, but didn't add value.
Don't take life too seriously. They will soon repeat it on cable TV.
I got the point. You answered the question quite well.
I just dont' think you should be cynical. You should be happy that you learned something about spec building. It's just busines...nothing personal.
I laugh when so many people in here sneer at the McMansions. I find it ironic that so many builders got so wealthy just delivering the products that the homebuyers want.
blue
"I just dont' think you should be cynical. "
I'm cynical about people who give lip service to quality, but have no clue what it means.
"You should be happy that you learned something about spec building. It's just busines...nothing personal."
It should be. But I made it exactly the opposite - Personal instead of business.
"I laugh when so many people in here sneer at the McMansions. I find it ironic that so many builders got so wealthy just delivering the products that the homebuyers want."
I understand that point. There has to be a balance between what people want and maintaining a reasonable level of quality.
Figuring out where to draw that line between what they want and quality will always be a point of contention.
Education is when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get if you don't.
OK, I'll bite.
Just my take - but I'd say the difference has something to do with the difference between perceived value, and intrinsic value. While McMansions offer perceived value, the lack of intrinsic value may surface only over time. An uneducated buyer sees the visual ostentatiousness of the McMansion, and makes assumptions about quality based on what they see. The falseness of those assumptions are not readily evident on the surface, and so some have made hefty profits capitalizing on this trait, offering great perceived value while whittling away at the intrinsic value of their product.
So the seller may say Hey, we just offered them what they wanted. The same is usually said by scammers who prey upon retired elderly women, paying them a lot of insincere romantic attention while emptying their nest egg. The same could be said about the pornography business, a huge multi-billion dollar industry that eclipses even the pro sports industry. Or the tobacco industry. They just give people what they want.
Is there anything morally wrong with that? I guess each one has to decide for themselves."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
LOL Huck! you really went too far with the analogies.
I hope you don't find some way to fit Hitler and Clinton into the discussion! LOL!
Pornography? Preying on the elderly!!! Tobacco?
You are making me feel sorry for all those suburbanites that saw their net worth double and triple because they "invested" in McMansions! Poor things!
blue
Thanks, I thought you'd get a kick out of that. =) But I think the increase in suburbanite equity is little related to McMansion production. Separate issues."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I'm not sure what you mean here. Is there McPorn? McCigarettes? What are the quality issues there? Or is the point that we know quality in building, but wouldn't know it in other areas?
-- J.S.
No, the point is, each industry mentioned is based on giving people what they want - people continue to buy the product, so its supply and demand. But there are hidden costs involved - smoking cigarettes, for example, may cost more than just the price of the cigarettes. Some people are OK with that, some aren't. Some feel that the seller of cigarettes should be concerned about these hidden (i.e. smoker's health, smoker's family's health, addiction) costs, others don't think its their problem. If its not, then its just supply and demand, like I said.
If people continue to buy McMansions that are large and showy, but poorly made, then its supply and demand. Or should a maker of houses be concerned with hidden costs inherent in a poorly constructed product that appears to be well-constructed to the untrained eye? Does the fact that rising equity will likely increase the price of the home, despite its poor quality, come into play? In other words, is it OK to build a home that will rapidly deteriorate, because the rising cost of land will probably increase its market value?
Some people, like the spec house builder in this thread, added actual value without increasing perceived value. People couldn't see the upgrades, so they didn't understand them as upgrades. Others will focus on increasing perceived value, without worrying about actual value. Or they will view actual value as equity deriving from rising real estate prices, not from the quality of their product.
I'm not saying building McMansions is right or wrong - I'm only saying that if a person bridles at the thought of increasing perceived value while decreasing the quality of the product, that person will object to the proliferation of these McMansions. I agree that a lot of the builders of these McMansions are making a lot of money, and if that end justifies the means to you, then you will not object. Its a personal issue, each one has to figure where they stand. "he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
If people continue to buy McMansions that are large and showy, but poorly made, then its supply and demand. Or should a maker of houses be concerned with hidden costs inherent in a poorly constructed product that appears to be well-constructed to the untrained eye? Does the fact that rising equity will likely increase the price of the home, despite its poor quality, come into play? In other words, is it OK to build a home that will rapidly deteriorate, because the rising cost of land will probably increase its market value?
That's a very good question to ask, and there's rumblings, already, where the great adjustment is starting to take place.
A house is "real" estate, it is a substantial investment planted on actual property--this should not be a decision made by assessing superficial appearances, yet it has been, in far too many big-builder created subdivisions. There are a number of people who thought they had bought a substantial house, just because the structure they are in looked like one (or looked like all the others on the block, for blocks and blocks). Some of those people are finding out that they got excatly what they payed for--all facade and very little substance.
I am very afraid that there is a portending huge business oppertunity in McMansion remediation. I'm sore afraid that our society will need special landfills from the debris of that remediation, too--not that the debris is bad or hazardous, just that none of it will be worth the labor to save the very tiny bits left over.
Now, this is the sort of thing that wants to get under BED's skin, and it shouldn't. He's not building the ten-starts-the-week-the-block junk I'm talking about, either. I'm very much afraid that we will have seen an entire generation of home owners buy houses with a less-than one generation lifespan. That is something that is likely to have some major repercussions in the building industry, and not all of those will be good.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm very much afraid that we will have seen an entire generation of home owners buy houses with a less-than one generation lifespan. That is something that is likely to have some major repercussions in the building industry, and not all of those will be good.
No they won't. One of those repercussions will likely be an upsurge in expensive litigation, and (we're seeing it here in California already) attendant increases in insurance rates. As more and more people find that they didn't get what they thought they were paying for, they will turn to the civil courts for redress."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
As more and more people find that they didn't get what they thought they were paying for, they will turn to the civil courts for redress
Yeah, well, that also scares me.
First off, the first people to go that route will be going against the (apparent) evidence that they are a minority (everybody else is happy, or else they would not buy the same product).
But, here's the thing, who will they sue? The previous buyer for failing to disclose what they didn't know about their brand-new house? The now moved-on to other subdivs builder? Even then, what happens when the larger corporate owners of the big builders simply "dumps" the construction side of things--that leaves nothing to sue "against" but debts and liabilities. So, that could be a real muddle.
Here's where it gets really dicey to my thinking. Suppose "we" get a general determination that there are whole neighborhoods of 1/3 & 1/2 & more million dollar valued houses with a real worth only in the tens of thousands. Keep extending that thought--what happens to the tax base when entire subdivisions are really tear-downs? Most RE taxes (sensibly) presume that property tends to be a stable sort of market without wide swings in value. Blammo, so much for City & County taxes--those shortfalls will not lightly touch the rest of us.
That scares me. As does the thought of entire subdivisions of angry resitered voters all clamoring that "Something Must Be Done! And Right Now!" The political responces to such hue and cry are legion in being too much too late, and often worse than the original crisis.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Ts, ts, ts - always these lawyers!
Its only a matter of time when you have a clause in your purchasing agreement, that you will have to buy the house "as is" or it is checked by a "home-inspector" who is on the hook then.
Lawyers will always find a clause applicable to whom it will benefit- the HO or the GC.
Just see the cafafel with the leaky condo syndrom
Is there McPorn?
Might be.
[Is{Are} there] McCigarettes?
Absolutely. Carltons, come in a nifty red box vaguely similar to a famous international brand.
What are the quality issues there?
About 55-75% the cost of name-brand for very little quality (get about 3 drags of of them, and the filler sure seems to be brown paper, not tobac, mostly--ah the wages of former vices . . . )
Ask the convenience store operators, they will tell you there is a definite market for substandard smokes. Even some who get one pack of reds to go with that carton of Carltons. I've heard similar arguments on buying good, then cheap beer, too.
But, in the end, you get what you pay for.
Sure, we don;t care how the attic is insulated (to take BH's example up)--that is, not until it's either too cold or too hot, and utility prices have gone up. People will look at superficial things to make choices--that's the nature of people. Does not mean it has to be.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
right on boss.. you did custom work on a spec house..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thanks to you a brownbagg for the replies.it seems to me that some of these things may have not added any value. (does 5000 psi concrete or 5/8" roof deck make any difference at all? or just no difference that is immediately obvious?)but it seems like a lot of the items you listed, while they might not add to resale value, will certainly add to the livability of the home. i bet that now that you are living in your SHFH, you are actually glad that you put in garage fireblocks, good insulation, lots of cable jacks and all the other upgrades. and i bet that the first time brownbagg needs to add a 20A outlet somewhere, he is going to be happy that he wired with 12ga. my point is that it seems to me that overbuilding as an O/B is more acceptable than as a spec builder. as long as you overbuild the right things, obviously. just because it doesn't add resale value, it doesn't mean it doesn't add value for you.
Building a house should not take too long.
When I was young, I did my 1500sqft house in under a year working every Friday night, all day Saturday and all day Sunday.
When I was much older, I did my daughter's 2400sqft house in about a year working 7-3 most days.
Both were done alone.
A bit of help cuts your time down.
If you're doing it thinking it's a good way to save money--build a bigger, better house for less $$$--forget it. Since you won't be doing the work, you won't be saving money...doing "the easy stuff" doesn't bring lots of cost savings.
If you're not able to be on-site nearly full time, forget it. There are a hundred thousand decisions to make, and waiting till 5 pm to do so won't cut it. And you don't want most subs to not have supervision or time will be spent and decisions will be made that won't suit you.
If you're not able to get smart quick about foundations, framing, insulation, plumbing, wiring, trim...forget it. You'll be dealing with people who have years and years of experience, and, as the General Contractor, you'll need to talk intelligently with them or you won't get the results you want.
If you want the experience of a lifetime, and the satisfaction of being hands-on in building your own house, and have the determination to do so in spite of the difficulty, then go for it. Find all the horror stories you can, and learn their lessons.
>> The only person I've talked with was a GC that said they wouldnt' even GC their own house so we shouldn't even try. << I had to smile. Sounds like he doesn't have much confidence in his abilities - or more likely wants to sell you something :-)
FYI, I'd guesstimate that the "subscribers" to this web forum are 20% remodel, 30% DIY remodel, 20% subcontractors or carpenters/tradesmen, 15% owner/builders, 10% new home builders, and 5% little old ladies who rarely get out of their bedroom slippers and bathrobe but who like to masquerade as macho tool belt guys ;-)
I think you have a good attitude to start though - hire the pros for the important stuff and very labor intensive stuff and DIY some of the finish work, and other non-essential stuff.
BTW - I have done the owner/builder thing too. It can be a bumpy road, but very satisfying in the end. Did not necessarily save a ton of money but did get the house done in 9 months from when the first shovel hit the ground.
Matt, that is an interesting breakdown you give to depict the profile types of Breaktime posters. I think you are just about right.
And looking at that breakdown, I would guess that the majority of posters would say that going the owner-builder route is a bad idea.
But as you and I know, it can be done successfully, and can prove to be rewarding and satisfying.
An other interest statistic would be of those owner/builders that are now postin as "construction professionals" where when they did the owner/builder thing were either not in construction or in a limited way that would not translate to home construction. Either subs in a limited area or commercial.It is hard remembering all of the stories and the order.But I think that Mongo and Cloud had no or limited experience in remodeling homes that they had.The house that Stinger mentioned I think that he was working for the door company and had other experiences with commercial project management.IIRC Mike Smith worked on heavy construction, don't know if that was the time frame when he did the OB thing or not.
I am a GC who has worked with folks who were owner-builders. We have only done this with people that we knew well and that we knew would take responsibility for their own shortcomings. The projects range from finishing a modular house to custom houses. They often involve a contract to finish the house that is satisfactory to a bank lender. Many banks will not lend money to an owner-builder but are happy to participate when a GC is involved.
We would never do these projects for a fixed price. The owner pays us for the work we do, including planning and supervision of their subs. We are very careful in working out a budget that is realistic. These are the numbers that we show the bank. If they save money by doing the work and paying the subs directly, they can do whatever they want with it. It is their risk. Our profit is figured in our hourly rate.
The jobs that these folks usually do are in line with what you want to do. Aside from the high level of trust between us and the owners, the most important factor is that the owners be readily available to make decisions and that they do, in fact, have the time to complete their work in a timely fashion.
Unless you can find a builder who is willing to work on this basis (and most are not), I would not recommend building your own house unless you already have a lot of hands-on experience, such as complete house remodelling, substantial garage, or major addition. Good luck.
It can depend greatly, Schelling, on what kinds of suppliers and subcontractors are available.
I came to the northern Adirondacks from a part of the midwest where "paper GCs" could operate quite successfully, employing no tradespeople at all, and relying 100 percent on subs and suppliers. In an area like that, subs and suppliers are quite different from here.
I went the owner-builder route there, built a highly custom lakefront home while working 60 hours a week full time at my desk job, and the site was 55 miles from where I lived. I could not have done it without the truly professional subs and suppliers I used.
I started by developing a complete set of site-specific plans and specs, right down to model numbers, colors, door hardware, etc. Then I took bids on everything, taking a long time to research subs and suppliers, qualify them, get to know them, inspect their work on built jobs, etc. Then I made commitments and built a schedule.
My excavator and foundation builder worked together all the time, and coordinated with each other on scope and schedule, without much input from me.
My framing sub took it from mudsills to finish roofing and flashing, including flashing for and installing all windows. I never called the lumberyard for a stick, the framer did all that. The burn pile of scrap was tiny.
The lumber supplier had taken my drawings in advance of the job, and had quoted a complete package, then scheduled out all the materials in delivery releases timed to be twice weekly. Perfect. Basement structural and main deck, mainfloor walls, etc. Right through dripedge, shingles, starters, rollflash, ridgevent.
Everything went that way . . . the millwork outfit that supplied all the inside trim and doors was the regular that went ahead of the trim sub I used, and all the measuring for moldings and doors was done by the millwork salesman, per the usual standards of the trim sub. Again, little input from me, other than specifying which moldings to use and how.
Our kitchen and cab work was done by a design-build sub that furnished and installed everything, including the appliances. And he coordinated his work with the plumber.
My electrical sub's wife had a lighting supply business, and all the fixtures came through her. They coordinated together on timing, we just specified everything upfront.
But I have found that here where we are, GCs have to be much much more hands on. Going the owner/builder route in an area like this is much tougher than otherwise.
Gene-
As anyone who has read your posts knows, you are an exceptionally thorough and well prepared person. Any owner-builder with those traits and a little determination will be able to build their own house. As you point out, you were able to do it by finding truly professional subs and suppliers. That is part of the preparation that you brought to the job.
We don't have any construction experience >>>>>>>>>>
I don't recommend it then. Why not have it entirely built for you minus the jobs you want to take on which sounds like few to me. Not enough to save a substantial amt of money. Sounds like your're asking for trouble. Do the partial job as I said and do a bit more on your next house unless you're planning to stay there a decade or more. I won't even go into all the things you'll need to coordinate. The knowledge you need in a pinch as your subs are at one anothers throats. What you will be doing is simply taking a chance and its a uneducated chance at that since as you admit you have zero experience.
As Mike said..you can make/save some good money but Mike's an accomplished builder. This is the third house I've done for myself that I live in between jobs for outside customers. On my first house I dbl'd my money...second house too and this house I will triple and half my money. But we're talking about being in the renovations biz for over 30 years.
I've done some spec houses that I never lived in. A few I made some decent money and one I lost twenty grand due to the drop in the housing market in the 80's.
Maybe start off with a smaller version of what you really want and do the things you're totally comfortable doing with that...then act as the contractor on the additions down the line. Put your toes in the water first because if you just jump right in there's the chance you will drowned
Good luck
a...
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A recap, with my two cents worth added:
Good advice from BossHog to check out the Spec House from Hell thread. (A spec house is a house built on speculation - you don't have a buyer for it, but you're hoping to sell it upon completion.) Junkhound has a good positive outlook, and the results to back it up...but what worked for him will not work for everyone. He could stockpile materials because he had room to store them. Not everyone does. He's got that stubborn determination to do it himself, and a fascination with the creative process, but some people just want to get it finished and move in. Big difference. Mike Smith had a positive experience, but he is a building professional par excellence. Maybe he was just a gun-ho do-it-yourselfer back in '72?
Stinger gave excellent advice on reading material: House by Tracy Kidder. The threads here on U-Build-It. He guesses that the majority of posters would say that going the owner-builder route is a bad idea, but points out that it can be done successfully, and can prove to be rewarding and satisfying. And he made an excellent point, worth repeating: "Some way, some how, get a set of plans and specs that represent what you are going to build, and make sure that the plans depict something that is truly buildable, and meets local codes. A purchased planset from a plan-selling outfit always needs to be gone over in detail by a local architect, or building designer, or engineer, or all, so as to get in all the changes so the planset meets site conditions, and calls out things that meet code." I wouldn't start until I had studied those plans inside and out. You've gotta envision the completed project, and the process, before you begin.
jhausch added the names President Homes and HomeWorx - I hadn't heard of them, but professional help-you-build outfits do tend to "make financing for such an undertaking more accesible," as jhausch pointed out. Brownbagg thinks the biggest problem with owner builder is separating the emotions from the business, with a tendency to overbuild without increasing the value. And I've seen that proven true time after time, in my own experience. GHR gave a pretty optimistic time frame for one man working alone - I doubt those results could be duplicated by the average unexperienced owner-builder.
CloudHidden, who (I think) is a design professional, gave the warning that "If you're doing it thinking it's a good way to save money--build a bigger, better house for less $$$--forget it. Since you won't be doing the work, you won't be saving money...doing 'the easy stuff' doesn't bring lots of cost savings." More important, I feel, was his comment that "if you're not able to be on-site nearly full time, forget it. There are a hundred thousand decisions to make, and waiting till 5 pm to do so won't cut it. And you don't want most subs to not have supervision or time will be spent and decisions will be made that won't suit you." While it can be argued that some have general'd their own projects without being there, I for one wouldn't attempt it. For years I supervised construction projects for a living, and I wouldn't think of letting a project go unattended for more than a few hours at best. Murphy's Law rules the construction process. He concluded with the comment "Find all the horror stories you can, and learn their lessons." Good advice, again.
I have GC'd lots of projects on my own place. I am a construction professional, a licensed contractor since 1989. And almost all of my own projects for myself remain to some degree uncompleted. Time and circumstances encroach. Its too easy to say I can finish up anytime, and put it off in favor of more pressing projects. The old story of the cobbler's kids. So, while I love DIY on my own place, its clearly not always the best route. And for those who want to get it done quickly and move on, I don't see hiring it out as a sign of a lack of self-confidence, or a desire to sell something.
Schelling does work for owner-builders, and points out the need for a high level of trust between him and the owners, and the importance of the owners' ability and availability to make decisions in a timely fashion. He also did not recommend building your own house unless you already have a lot of hands-on experience, such as complete house remodelling, substantial garage, or major addition.
Hopefully the helpful posters here have given you some food for thought, and a direction to go with your ambitions for a great project!
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
>who (I think) is a design professionalYeah, when the checks cash. :)Almost more to the point, I did it owner-builder thing myself. Was able to be there full-time, and saw the benefits. Did lots of the work, and saw which had payoff and which didn't. And had plenty of experience beforehand, though not nearly enough...really had to scramble to keep up. I'm glad I wasn't on BT until I nearly finished the house, be/c the questions I would have posed would have exposed an unfortunate naivete and made me an object of ridicule.Probably half my clients operate as owner-builder and half are turnkey. The sweat-equity of the owner-builders is its own reward, but they've neither saved money nor finished earlier. Those who've hired a good builder (emphasis on "good") have made consistent progress and moved in in a predictable timeframe.Alolco, know your goals, know your dreams, know your limits.Edit: To answer Bill's comment, I had fully rehabbed a house--framing, plumbing, wiring, finish, repointing, addition foundation--before taking on new construction. Just haven't gone into it much here be/c it was all straight walls, and that hardly seems like real construction any more. <g>
Edited 3/5/2006 12:49 pm ET by CloudHidden
huck.. when helen and i built our house.. i was working down the cape in P'town as a field engineer
my boss was a huge Cape Verdean... we were banging together some batter boards out on the breakwater..
he's watching me banging nails & he says " Carpincture or Porcinture ?"
it was porcinture.. i couldn't cut a board, nail a roof shingle, or layout a stair..
burned out the clutch on our volvo by tying a rope to the wall and trying to pull the corner back into plumb ..
hey ... that house was great.. and convinced someone to hire me as a lead man on their crew ... ( still didn't know shid )..
attitude and perseverence..
the biggest drawback i see today is financing the construction.. you have to get it far enough along so the banks will loan you a construction loan to finish
anyways.. the OP sounds like me and helen when we were 29 & dating
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for all the advice!
First off we live in FL so thankfully there won't be snow to deal with ;) and we can't have a basement due to low sea level.
We do plan on having actual blueprints designed for us or from a site that has offers them.
I don't work, just stay home with the kids and by the time (we have three kids under 4 right now) we're ready for this they'll all be in school. We'd work into the budget a cell phone specifically for handling calls related to the project.
From what I've been reading when we go to the lender with our plan to build this house we need to factor in a specfic $% for problems like going over budget or over time. if we take anything less than 1000 hrs planning this it's too soon. We need 3 quotes for every job comparing time, material quality and get references (and check them) for every sub-con we think of hiring. That we need to have about 12 things done before we ever start settling on a house plan.
We've also already contacted U-build-it, they have an office about 1 hr away.
Crystal
My job as a mother is to work myself out of a job.
"We'd work into the budget a cell phone specifically for handling calls related to the project."
Dedicated phone with fax capability - at the job site - is a real plus. My GC writes that into all his contracts (he provides the fax machine).
We're right in the middle of building our house (as owner-builder). We have 2 kids (4 & 8). Some things we have learned:1) Breaktime is an invaluable tool in learning about how things should be done. It's not so valuable when you're trying to explain to your sub why you want "x" done ("I read it on the internet" doesn' t carry too much weight).2) You need to be able to drop everything and go out to the job site at a moment's notice. You need to be able to go out there on a regular basis to check up on how things are going, be there for deliveries, meeting with the various subs to go over things.3) You need to be able to stand up for yourself when someone is doing something you know is wrong, and the only authority you have to bear on it is being a stay-at-home mom who researches things obsessively (in my case, anyways).4) You need to be very organized-- be able to find a sub's phone number, find the relevant receipt, quote or part number at a moment's notice. I carry everything in a big 3-ring binder that's really over-stuffed.5)You need to do this because it's something you've always wanted to do-- because you want to be intimately involved in building your dream home just the way you want. Not because you want to save money or time--you won't do either.6) Finding one excellent sub leads to finding other excellent subs. We lucked out on our builders (we used SIP's). They were a great resource. Willing to answer our questions, and refer other excellent subs to us. Some of our subs were referred to us by another owner-builder. We fired 2 of the 3--and wished we could have fired the 3rd.7) Only work with subs who will write up a contract specifying EXACTLY what they are doing and how they are doing it. If you think you're paying for one thing, and they think you are paying for another, it only leads to pain.8) Make your budget flexible enough to absorb the unexpected expenses and be able to forgo some extra's to pay for them.9) The interest payments on a construction loan will kill you if you don't prepare adequately.10) We got financing through a rural farm credit union. They are very easy to work with, will write me a check within 24 hours of my request. I couldn't imagine doing this with a bank that only made dispersals at pre-determined intervals after it had been inspected by their agent. 11) We are doing a lot of work ourselves, but it's only because my DH had saved up 2 months of vacation. He's working 1/2 time right now. We work on the house 3 1/2 days a week--which means we have to have childcare for those days. We have remodeled 2 houses ourselves, and have watched shows like Hometime and This Old House regularly for the past 15 years. I volunteered with Habitat for Humanity for a few years. We had a pretty decent idea how a house goes together--but we've learned about 10 times that amount during this process.It can be done, but you need to have the right skills and personality. Don't do it to save money. Good Luck,Jo
Edited 3/5/2006 9:14 pm ET by Geode
That was an excellent post.View Image
I have been building my own house for the past three years, and the following are the main reasons why:
1. Prior building experience. I grew up working construction in a family business and for contractors all the way through college, so I have the experience to complete many aspects of the job competently and safely. I didn't say quickly, or cheaply, or to a higher quality than a good professional. That is what you get with a good pro. If I couldn't do most of the work myself, and had to contract it all out, I wouldn't attempt to be an owner-builder.
2. Time off. I am a teacher, so I have summers and holiday vacations to work on the house. When school is in session, I get next to nothing done. Just in case any of you are snickering about a teacher's schedule, I teach in a boarding school- many days on duty from 7 am to 10 pm, every other Sunday off, every Saturday on (that's 1/14 days off). Don't feel sorry for me either, I get 3 weeks off at Christmas and spring break, and 3 months off in the summer! If I had a regular job schedule which didn't allow me large blocks of time in which to immerse myself in building, I wouldn't attempt to be an owner-builder.
3. The desire for a truly custom home which grows organically and in which decisions can be made on my schedule. This doesn't mean a pro builder couldn't build what we did, they certainly could and probably to a higher standard. This does mean that we started with a floor and frame plan (timberframe) and a vision for how we would do the rest, but also that many later decisions were made slowly and as part of the organic growth of the house. This often meant spending lots of time inside and pondering decisions which would have been very difficult looking only at floor plans. Flooring (wide plank white pine), kitchen, countertops, bath layout and furnishings, door and trim style, etc, as well as truly unique items such as the sliding 4x8 barn style doors which I plan to build as part of the master bedroom/loft. Stuff like that would be impossible to imagine (for me, at least) simply by looking at a floor plan or product catalogs. When the house is complete, it will truly be a unique expression of my imagination and personality. It would be impossible to get that in a house we bought from somebody else or had build by a GC. It would be completely unfair and unworkable to ask or expect a builder to give us that kind of latitude in decisionmaking. If we didn't want or expect that kind of building experience or final product, I wouldn't have tried to be an owner builder.
4. Financing. No bank in their right mind would have lent me money if I told them what I planned to do. They all wanted a complete project in 6 months to a year, which would have negated my ability to do the work myself or to take the time to let it grow organically. My project was only possible b/c I had some flexible family financing which was eventually converted into a bank mortgage. Even owner-builder outfits didn't give us this much flexibility.
5. Another place to live. If I didn't have another place to live which was essentially free, our project costs would have escalated beyond our means. Since my housing is part of my income package, I didn't have to pay rent while building or cover two mortgages. If I had to, well, you get the point by now.
I'm not saying don't do it, but if I were in your position, with your skills and family commitments, I wouldn't try it. A good GC will make for a more sane and managable process, and I question if you are going to save money doing it yourself.
Mike
Edited 3/6/2006 2:43 pm ET by MikeFitz
The only person I've talked with was a GC that said they wouldnt' even GC their own house so we shouldn't even try.
That was just a lame attempt to scare you out of the process.
blue
Yeah, but depending on his experiences, it still might have had a good motive behind it. What I mean is, if you've run into enough owner-builders who ended up in the middle of a nightmare, you might be inclined to give that advice, truly believing that you'd be doing them a favor to talk them out of it. Or if you knew their disposition wasn't a good match for the project, but didn't want to come right out and say that. Also, I had an art teacher in college who used to tell some of his art students "I'd find another major, if I was you". Devastating to some, but he told me later he did it to light a fire under the complacent students who needed a wake-up call. At any rate, a major DIY owner-builder project is not for the feint of heart!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I went the owner builder route for our current house.
I had no construction experience other than some student housing rehab for the university in college. Can you do it? Yes.....but... here are a few points I learned.
* You will not save as much money as you think. Some of the books and websites talk about how contractors make this enormous percentage off their houses which just isn't true in most cases. Most of the successful contractors I have gotten to know in my area are making 10-15% off a custom home. We went about 15% over budget and at least 10% of that were "upgrades".
*It will take you much longer than you think. I thought I was being very conservative in setting a 9 month schedule for our house. With delays from subs and my own slowness it took closer to a year. Remember you are paying interest that entire time.
*At least some of the subs will put your job to the bottom of their priority list over the builder who gives them multiple houses a year. Between our foundation sub and the plumber they set framing back over a month. One thing I did find around here though is that most subs don't price things differently for O/B than they do for small builders. Of course they might figure a PITA fee into your bid if they think you don't have a clue what you are doing and will cost them extra time or hassle.
*As Stinger said get subs who can work with less than full time supervision. Talk to several high end builders and ask them for advice on the best subs. The best ones will cost you more money but are worth it. This also mandates you have very good specs and plans for them to work off of. Plans off the web won't have any of this.
*More than likely the stuff you do yourself will not turn out as well as if a pro had done it. This doesn't mean it can't turn out nice, but even if it does, it will take a lot longer.
*Don't move in until you are done. I still have painting and some trim work to do and we have been in the house since September. All of it would have been much easier to do before moving in.
I bought a number of books on contracting your own home and most were worthless. One that was good though was "The Complete Guide to Contracting Your Home".
I will do it again, but then again I was lucky and didn't have any major problems other than some delays. But if you read the spec house from hell thread BossHog linked too this does give you a pretty good idea of what you are in for.
Regards,
Dennis
*Don't move in until you are done. I still have painting and some trim work to do and we have been in the house since September. All of it would have been much easier to do before moving in.
Boy, is that the truth, among everything else you said
I think the toughest hurdle an owner builder is going to face is getting the bank to lend you the money! If you can't convince them that your able to build and finish a house within one year you will never get started.
I would talk to the mortgage people at a local bank to find out what they require to owner build. You should try a localy owned bank, they seem to be much more flexible than large banks or mortgage companies. My experience was that the big banks and mortgage companies wanted me to have built several homes in the past two years to get a construction loan.
When I went to my local bank the loan guy said yes at the first meeting. It helped that I owned the land outright and I had constuction experiance. Insurance may be an issue also, I had to convince my insurance company that I would be able to finish the house in less than one years time.
Its good that your looking into this a few years before you want to give this a try. With the proper planning and subcontractors, owner building is rewarding.
You should reconsider the structural part to this job unless you have a background in that.
You might try one of the following for some insight...
http://www.ownerbuilder.com
http://www.ownerbuildercenter.com
http://www.ownerbuilderbook.com
Ain't the web great?
Bruce
Between the mountains and the desert ...
You can contact me at [email protected]. I can help you with your idea.
This forum would be plugged up too much and too fast to discuss the details of such an endevour. I could tell you already that it will take a LOT of time to even discuss any such project. But I am building homes for over 35 years and have the experience and knowledge to do so.
I doubt you'll save money by being your own GC. It's likely you'll put in all that effort and not even save the GC's fee. You won't have access to the best pricing for materials or the best subcontractors. The most you can offer the subs is one job and a good reference, whereas a good GC builds a relationship with their subs over numerous jobs and gets their loyalty and extra effort when it's needed. You'll also spend a tremendous amount of effort in pre-qualifying subs to know which ones can do the job properly and which ones are hacks or thieves or both, whereas the GC expends that effort over multiple projects.
As to whether or not you'll get a better job done regardless of the cost, that depends on you. It depends on how much you're willing to study, how much you can be on site while the work is being done (i.e. not afterward!), how good your plans are, and what problems you encounter during the build. Murphy is as alive in homebuilding as in any other human endeavour.
If all you want to do yourselves is some interior finish work, why don't you hire a GC and just have him leave that work out of his scope? Your savings will probably be similar, and if you choose the right GC your risk will be lower.
As to how to hire a good GC- others may be able to advise you how to do that. The only thing worse than GCing your own home is hiring a bad GC!
Good luck to you.
ALOLCO, welcome to BT.
Don't go in to the owner builder thing thinking you're doing it to save money. Do it because you want your house to be just so... do it because you want the rewarding experience..do it for whatever reason, but don't do it because you think it will be cheaper. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't. Making "cheaper" your prime motivation is building a house of cards, which can easily come crashing down.
Can you do it? Absolutely. It will be a WHOLE lotta work and a WHOLE lotta stress, but you CAN do it. The earlier you start to plan it out, the better off you will be. Get as much planned out ahead of time and try to avoid last minute changes which are almost always expensive. Make sure at least you or dh have flexible enough hours that you can be on site during the day when subcontractors are present. This reduces the chance of something getting screwed up, miscommunication, and generally keeps things running smoother.
A good thread to read here on BT is Kacy & dh's (hubby) addition to their home. They used Ubuildit to assist.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=53790.1
Kacy visits occasionally, and you could probably ask her questions.
jt8
"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
When I first got on my own I worked for several owner-builders with limited experience. I thought it was great for me -I got paid by the hour so there was no worry about estimates and I didn't have a real boss. Only one woman really came out ahead with a good project and saved money. She was very organized and on the job all the time. And she understood who was doing her a favor and praised them.
Others thought that to GC just meant writing checks. Many others didn't do the homework and didn't really have an estimate of costs and drowned in stress when the budget was blown.
You can do it, but you have to put in the time. Preparation is the key.
Being in the middle of an all too slow owner-builder remodel, my recommendation is first find out if building is something you'd like to do. Try a few days with Habitat for Humanity. Read a bunch of stuff here on Breaktime. In a couple months, you should be able to decide if you enjoy it enough to do your own house.
Bottom line, if you do it for the love of doing it, you'll be fine. If you do it to pinch pennies, it'll be a major disappointment.
-- J.S.
You know, of course, with an opener like that you are going to get it?
My wife and I built our 8000 ft log home ourselves. We subbed only the dirt work, foundation, flooring, and fireplaces.
We did 100% of the log work, buying the logs from a local log yard.
I designed the house.
We put in the floor system, I did the plumbing and electrical.
I scratch built all the windows and doors, and installed them. I also built all the cabinets throughout the house, and installed all the faucets, tubs, showersl, etc. Even built a Japanese Furo.
My friend carpenter trimmed all the interior windows, but I did the doors. He is a much better trim carpenter than I.
So, what can I tell you about our experience?
Stef
Stef, I'm thinking I'm remembering you and the house. You have any finished pics that we haven't seen?
Name change no?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I'm that guy. You and I discussed a number of things a few years ago.
Yea, I have pictures, by the millions. We are living in the house, but its not complete. Spent the last week building kitchen cabs.
However, I'll post some pics soon.
Different name, because when Prospero changed the website around a while back I couldn't get my old name to work.
Since I used to have a fatboy Bike I figured that'd do.
Stef
Well, good to see you again. I'll keep an eye out for the photo's in the Gallery. Best of luck on the finish.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Just a quick note - the basic question is what are the building inspector requirements? Some cases they are liberal and you can do yourself what you can - others you must pull a permit and be licensed in that field. I have built in NH and have done everything myself including the framing (except the roof rafters, sheathing and roof itself). I am a mechanical PE and have read extensively how to books written by pros and attended builders hows and asked many questions.
I took this route since
Good luck
ALOLCO,
Big task. I will not speculate as to your own situation and abilities. I will tell you that as a builder, I have performed a "dry-in" or shell home project at the request of about 8 different clients.
All came back and said they wished they had let me finish. All experienced all or some of the following: they did not save any money and in fact spent more than my bid price, were abused by subs and supliers, the project took at least 1.5 times my build schedule, some items are still unfinished when they moved-in, lost valuable time with family and friends, affected performance at their regular jobs and it wore them out.
Keep in mind that unless you have the cash to do the build out of your bank accounts, its going to be extremely difficult to get a construction loan and a construction-to-perm deal is entirely out.
By the time you factor in the higher rate you'll pay on a construction loan as an owner/builder (w/no experience) and the costs of closing two loans (figure 4% total roughly, depending on location), it's very tough to make such a deal work financially, all of the other construction headaches aside.
Jay
Jay,
its going to be extremely difficult to get a construction loan and a construction-to-perm deal is entirely out.
I have heard others say this a number of times and it is opposite of the experience I had as well as three other people I know around here (Iowa) who went the o/b route.
We paid cash for our lot which gave us the required 20% of the construction costs. I had no real prior construction experience but I talked to three banks and all wanted to finance our job. We ended up going with Union Planters/Regions bank. Our 1 year construction loan rate was 4.5% with 30 yr mortgage rates at that time running 5.25%. Unfortunately by the time we were ready to transition over to to a fixed rate mortgage the rates had risen to 6%.
We did have a very good credit rating as well as having enough income to support our then current mortgage and the construction loan payments. I also had good documentation going in to secure the loan including all prints, site plan, bids, project budget, project schedule, proof of insurance for the job etc. We had a fair amount of cash in the bank for budget overruns. FWIW The banks pre-appraisal of the house came in about 50k higher than the construction costs. I am sure all of these helped with the approval of the loan.
Regards,
Dennis
"We did have a very good credit rating as well as having enough income to support our then current mortgage and the construction loan payments. I also had good documentation going in to secure the loan including all prints, site plan, bids, project budget, project schedule, proof of insurance for the job etc. We had a fair amount of cash in the bank for budget overruns. FWIW The banks pre-appraisal of the house came in about 50k higher than the construction costs. I am sure all of these helped with the approval of the loan."
djj,
You hit it correctly. It's not impossible to do, but you're the textbook description of the guy who can get such a loan. You had:
* Good credit
* Good cash reserves
* Good equity
*Low enough debt-to-income ratio
* Proper planning and permitting
That's fairly rare among owner/builders who aren't GCs or at least tradesmen. I've been approached by a lot of people of the last few years who want to go owner/builder, but unless they meet those 5 criteria, there's no chance. Like I said, its not impossible, but it is v-e-r-y difficult for the average American to meet all of the criteria. And unless your planning and prep is very good, you're not going to save the sort of money you hoped.
Jay
It may vary by location. We met all of those criteria and no local bank would touch it. They all required a licensed GC and a 1 year completion time from excavation to completely finished. It's odd because we don't even have building inspectors or inspection schedules around here. We have a zoning administrator who approves building permits and a state agency which approves septic systems. After that, you are on your own.
Mike
If you give the bank your costs first (quotes, material cost), they seldom give you this amount. Let them figure the cost, then accept (or not) what is available to you according to YOUR cost estimate. The banks always want to be covered.
Basically you have to prove to them you don't actually need them. If you come begging you are at their mercy.
Throw in one more here on construction loans and 'saving money'.
DW and I together making about 8,000 a year when we first built, no loans, the savings in DIY were so big that we paid as we went and still had enough to eat, pay the mortgage on the house we were living in, and send the kids to private school. Like working 4 jobs for a couple of years though..