I know this is weird because everyone lives all over, and if anyone knows where I could look at a site or something that would be good too. I know I could get a book, but I need a round about as soon as I can.
Im a paint contractor, and I have a General that I think is pulling my chain. He said that new construction painting should cost “x” amount in square feet and it is half my bid. Now my rates are lower than any painter I know of around here and I dont know how to verify if Im too high or he is pressing me to put me over the barrel.
I told him that if there was a discrepancy it was because other bids werent accounting the same includes or coats
If there are painting contractors willing, or generals that know about what to expect to pay for a full court paint job, or anyone else with insight that would be great.
I dont use a Square Foot Price, or if you have a formula? How much do you allocate for a painter and how?
Replies
What is the X amount per sq.ft. ? In this neck of the woods $1.90 sq.ft is ez to find. Real easy to find cheap labor. But you always get what you paid for!
Thats inside & out 2 colors inside & 3 outside, cut up little townhomes & your going to need the 40' ladder outside!
he said 1.75-2.00 a square foot.
but part of the problem I think is that my bid, which I discussed with him, was 1 prime, 2 finish on drywall, water poly on wood 2 coats with sanding in between, cabinets, trim is all poly, bead board everything inside except floors and stairs.
I dont think that a production figure can account for that but thats why Im asking. In addition Im on the water coast in Maine, the cheapest real painter I know of is $28/hr and the standard company price would be about $35/hr.
The house is going to list for $380k and its about 3024sq ft over 3 floors including a full finished basement with 3rd bath.
Edited 11/30/2004 10:24 pm ET by zendo
Edited 11/30/2004 10:26 pm ET by zendo
Stick to your guns, the $1.90 is labor & materials. Can make some money on the outside, because the middle units only have a front & back. The interiors have about $460 in materials, pay $920 / With and extra $220 @ paint final. No primer & about 4-6 man hrs to make the paint final look good. 1300-1525 sq.ft.
This interior has 1500 in materials 36g for drywall, 14 ceiling, and 10 water poly. The quote was about 9k. I figured about 260 hrs. with sanding and all.
I just got a couple of bids for a job very similar to what G80104 described. Nothing is stained except the stair handrails. No cabinets either (factory finished. $3 a heated square foot, inside and out. no garage. Home sales prices will be about 170k. I assume you are talking new construction?
Like someone said above - in paint, you get what you pay for. Cheap paint job = quick & dirty...
I'd guess that since a paint job is more labor than materials, the going rate would be more heavily tied to the local economy than, say, a turn key garage door, for example.
Ask piffin. He is on the coast of Maine. Matt
hit me on this one, eeh?
Stumbled across it here. I didn't get a notice from Prosperoi'm not even going to talk sq ft price. I see you know about that falacy already. If this builder wants to live in playland that way, it's his concern. He is in some place where he sets price and finds the lack of quality that can match the price he sets.I find quality and then find a way to pay what the price is.You are the one who needs to set the price that meets youir needs to do quality work. Then to sell quality rather than price.I can't think of any trade in this industry where there is more variance in pricing than in painting.The painters out here do fine work with great prep and quality paint products. One exampole - I had a bid for five grand to paint the exterior trim and doors on a fairly large house.
Owner found himself an unknown painter to do the job for half that amt. I observed but didn't interfere. his house, his money, his problems...
This cheap painter did not use caulk or filler, barely sanded, and did one primer and one finish coat. It is now five or six years later and needs repainting. Get this - the owner is going back to same painter for repaint. The job my guys do normally goes 8-10 years and has two finish coats over good caulk and fill work with sanding betyween. You can feel it soft as a babies bottom.You need to work to educate your potential clients. Eventually, you'll have your own crew of dope smokin, beer drinkin...oops;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
First, you should know what your sq ft cost is for all your work. Even if you are not committing yourself to that price, you should still know what it is. Start keeping track of your unit costs with each job that you do. Once you have collected this data, it will be invaluable for providing estimates or firm bids for your customers. You will not need to give a sq ft price. You will give a firm quote tailored to a particular job.
Second, of course the gc is jerking you around. He is either a fool to mess around with a reliable sub, or he doesn't know you or he knows you and is not impressed with your work. Anytime I find a good sub, I don't worry too much about price. I only worry about paying them on time and making their job as straightforward as possible. Production concerns can sometimes trump quality for some contractors and in these cases, speed is king, but in higher end work price is only one factor among many.
Decide what kind of work you want to do, and do that work.
Only reason I havent developed that is that a lot of jobs dont have trim or same/different color or poly on trim, its hard to cut through the variables without feeling like I have screwed someone who doesnt deserve it.
So, I take longer making a bid but when I do I pretty much know exactly how long and how much in materials in addition to the price.
Take like window muntins for example...a lot of time but most jobs dont have them anymore.
Edited 11/30/2004 10:43 pm ET by zendo
Anybody else on this one?
Professor?
Zendo-
It doesn't matter what the GC "says the job is worth", or what anyone else here on the board pays for painting work. What matters is whether you can make money at the prices he's quoting. If you can't (and it sounds like you can't), then don't waste your time even talking to him anymore.
The problem that you have (and many other contractors have), is looking at what others are charging, and trying to justify your rate against that. There will always be someone willing to work for less that you are, and there's always someone looking to pay the rock bottom price and not a penny more. If you fall into the trap of trying to match numbers with them, you'll be wearing an orange apron and saying "caulk is in aisle 12" before long (and probably making more money....lol).
If you've figured out your material costs accurately, estimated your labor hours well, and know that hourly rate you need to charge, then stick to your guns. The GC's "SF price" should mean nothing to you.
Bob
thank you, seems like I loose all the big jobs, and that the orange apron might be coming soon
Pardon my ignorance, are you talking sq ft of floor or wall space?
See this is my problem Dave, Im like you, Im a painter I think wall and ceiling space is fair plus the boardft-sqft of trim. I cant allow so much extra that I never have a problem because as it is Im not even peaking the market and my bids are getting crushed.
A 20 man crew paint company owner here was complaining the other day about small guys taking thier work, but I dont understand his deal. His advertising budget is more than my company made this year. His crews show up and drink beer and smoke pot on the job, and I cant land bids, have an old van and no business rented space.
Im trying to be as fair as possible to clients- GC's or home owners, and bidding takes a long time because everyplace has differences including what the client wants painted.
So I guess these guys tow in the work saying 1.80 a sqft, then oh thats an add on, oh thats an add on. Im not trying to gouge I just would like to be in the 50-100k range and this is pushing me far below.
Oh by the way if it was 1.90 a square of wall and ceiling Id be set!
Painters use wall or floor, or look at the job and guess how many days, it gets confusing and I cant even find out how much the local price is.
>See this is my problem Dave, Im like you, Im a painter I think wall and ceiling space is fair plus the boardft-sqft of trim.
Linear feet of trim maybe, but yeah. That's the basis of any sound bid I think.
You have not built up a reputation yet? Or you have pissed them off?Big Macs - 99 cents
Im thinking you mean the one GC- I think he spends to much money at the beginning of the job and doesnt want to allocate what he is considering his profit at the end for finish and paint. It took me a long time to see the trend one year I guess. You probably ask why I stuck around... he gave me regular work and I could fit my clients in around his jobs. Even with his crap I could depend on getting my check a week, maybe a little more after finishing.
As for ones that I know that build nice work they generally have painters that they always use. I have heard the same remard many times. "I tried a new painter once and now I stick with the one I always use."
He doesnt care about quality just how much profit he can take, beat down the subs price and cut corners on the buyers. As sure as Im going to offend a bunch with this statement I think this is the mentality of the majority of GCs. What goes in thier pocket is the key, barely keep the subs quiet, pay just enough so they dont walk, and hide the expensive problems or push them down the road onto the owners hands.
Oh good example - not putting in quality windows to add sq footage of house. GC puts in extruded window that blows in about 3-8 years but not his problem house is SOLD! And they cost half the price of a quality window!
Edited 12/1/2004 1:01 pm ET by zendo
50 to 100 k range net or gross?
I read your text and the overall reaction to it with great interest. I'm a custom painting contractor in Colorado and I believe it is vital to position yourself either as a custom job painter or production job painter. The latter most likely will accept the price offered by the gc; the custom painter has to <sell> his/her quality on every bid.
Your hourly rate is defined by yourself and the market. You define how much you want/have to make in a year, divide it by the hours you most likely will work and you have your hourly rate. example: $100.000:2080hrs=48.08 $/hr
Then you adjust to the market up or down, then you adjust to the worked hours based on previous years, then you possibly adjust your dream income and then...................you send your wife to work> full time with benefits.
thank you for your speaking up, I think I have seen myself as you are and set a fair rate, but it does take me a while to bid a big job, then when I have hours of bidding into it, it hurts even more when you lose it.
But if you would, how do you do your bidding. Do you add on, add on, to a base price (even if the client doesnt see the in between process) for extra trim, maybe stairs, or beadboard, or do you bid based on how many hours you think it will take? or which
There must be a way a quick and dirty formula model that comes pretty close. Like if the house is worth this then the paint sub should be around this, or high end of this. Or a percentage of cost or something. They know how much the heating guy will need and they dont argue it why is it so hard to figure out a painter.
Edited 12/1/2004 1:04 pm ET by zendo
I have built houses in Germany and know the other side of the trade. You said it before, the gc mostly goes for the willing and there is nothing wrong with it. I had my painter employed......we did about 10 quality homes a year. The painting work amounted to about 4% of the contract price.
As a painting contractor I usually bid my projects with a flat fee or by the hour. Either way I have my calculation checked in 2 ways. I figure out the daily work volume for one person and add it up because the square footage alone does not give you a clue of the time input (living room with 30 ft ceiling?). Second, I check against it with square footage to paint and material. I developed a fast bidding process for giving a quick price idea by estimating a room (depending on size $250-$550) and then just multiplying.
Flat fee:
When I give a fixed price I have to know exactly what is included. Anything not included and added later on will be priced separately or worked by the hour. For example: To paint the exterior of the house will cost you $ 5,500.00. Then I describe what is included, how will I work the job and which material will be used. Anything not described or necessary repairs (which happens all the time) will be pointed out before the additional work has started and priced by the hour or as a fixed price.I require 20-30% down, additional work has to be paid when finished, the last payment when the job is finished. On larger projects weekly installments until done.
The point of it is, I don't want to get stuck with unpaid bills....remember, the painter is the last guy on the job!
Time and material:
Hourly rate and material without markup. The time spent at Kelly Moore, Benjamin Moore, Diamond Vogel,Home Depot or Sherman Williams is paid. 30% down to start. Friday is payday.
Like someone else said... choose production work or custom work.
In my opinion, you need to steer clear of production work. Most production work sucks, unless you're the right guy for it... willing to do the cheapest job possible and cut as many corners as possible, use cheap materials, use cheap labor, pay your workers shi!t, have minimal equipment... just get it done enough to sell an unwitting homeowner.
Concentrate on custom work. It's an entirely different market with different values, different things that are important. Find the people who want quality and can pay for it. It takes a while (probably quite a while) to build a reputation with those folks and get steady good-paying work from them, on your terms. You need the right combination of craft skill and customer service to do it.
No point in doing production unless you want to compete on price with a lot of hacks, guys who skimp on everything including paying taxes and worker's comp.
Before getting into details, I just want to say how much I enjoy and appreciate fine painting.
Now, there's a lot of painters (as well as everybody else) who think more highly of their work than do the people paying them. This creates cognitivce dissonance; how come I'm so damn good but nobody wants me at my price? The answer can be found in one of three factors:
1. You're not that good (variant: you smell bad and the other guys can't stand having you around)
2. You charge too much
3. You charge more than other painters who are just as good as you (variant: you smell worse...)
You've made the solution far more complicated that it needs to be. You have a minimum amount of money you need to earn to keep your kids from starving and dressing like they're from New Jersey. You do the calculations already posted. If you can't get that amount, you go to work for somebody who can or become a lawyer, whichever comes first. This may be written in a joking manner, but it sums up reality.
SHG
read Stephen Has post again
cultivate a helper or two w/ sense of discipline & pride
numbers sound big but the project sounds bigger
hope you have someone else to work for
let's both read Stephen's again best of luck
Zendo, Stephen and JohnH are correct. You will NEVER make a decent living working for builders. NEVER. You must aim your marketing efforts at the end user, they are the only ones who will pay for better quality work. Builders are only concerned with price. If you can't or won't do the job for the little they are prepared to pay then they will find someone who will.
John
"You have a minimum amount of money you need to earn to keep your kids from starving and dressing like they're from New Jersey. "
Ans what's wrong wit how wez dress in Joisey? Uhh? You wanna swim wit da fishes?
Zendo,
I suspect if you step back and analize the situation objectively in a business like manner------you will walk away from new construction work.
Instead work dillegently at developing a "retail" mindset instead of" wholesaling" your services to contractors.
this will require more handholding, furniture moving, and people skills----but you will likely earn more in a 2 or 3 day work week than you make busting your hump 6 days a week for builders.
Work directly for the homeowners of older well maintained homes----cultivate a slight air of " old world craftsman" about you ---and go out of your way to do really good work.
Then---take your customer by the hand and lead them through your completed project---point out some area and mention how concerned you were with that area----how such and such a technique would "probably " have been ok but you put more effort into using such and such a method to be "sure" it was done right.
Buy the best & most expensive materials from the most expensive paint store in town, by your painters pants and drop cloths there, ask the paint store owners advice on better materials and methods---even if they take more time and work
What will happen is that your retail customers AND the paint store will be enthusiastically referring you to people---saying things like " Zendo is the guy for you----he is a REAL character, but he is worth EVERY penney he charges
And if you do it right---one day on the drive home you will realize that that day you earned $50/hour washing walls-----and one day you will be reading the newspaper while waiting in between coats for some paint to dry and you will realize you are earning $50/hour reading the newspaper.
good Luck.
Stephen