I have installed crown molding. Actually, the molding is attached to base molding nailed to the ceiling and wall to create a more dramatic look. The stock is primed. My question is what should I use to caulk between the crown molding and the base molding and the base molding and the drywall? Should I use a wood filler or silicon caulk? Do I apply it before or after painting white?
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Absolutely do not use silicone caulk ... it can't be painted, and if you smear it during installation, it's tough to get off. Wood filler would be a second choice. First chsoice would be a latex caulk. HD and Lowes sell various brands ... Alex something is one ... with a 35 year guarantee ... buy it in white, cut a very small hole in the end, and apply carefully. Apply it before the final coat of paint. You can apply it befor the prime also.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Thank you for the info!
Most of my experience has been as a paint contractor, so what has worked for me all these years is a good acrylic latex/silicone (35-50 year) caulk. For interior work, I've used Dap's 35 year caulk to good effect. I'm a detail guy, so I apply the caulk to the joint with the gun, push it into the joint with my finger and then, take a thin wet cotton rag, wiping off all the excess. I've seen some terrible caulk jobs over the years where the caulk was applied with a fat, sloppy finger only. If you're doing high end work, use a wet rag and rinse it out frequently so the excess on the rag doesn't end up on the trim.
I always prime bare wood before I caulk. I think you'll get a better bond. Once it's dry, I go back and fill the nail holes with a good spackling paste(forget those one-time spackles; they're made with tiny glass beads and don't sand well at all), sand all the wood if necessary, spot prime and finish up with a good quality interior semi-gloss/gloss enamel. I still think Benjamin Moore's Satin Impervo(the oil base product) is the best.
redpine
Ditto yup yup yup
I've used the impervo in the past and BM's Dulamel (expensive stuff!) more recently. I found that the Dulamel, while a heck of a smooth finish seems to yellow after just a few months. But can't remember if the impervo keeps white longer. What's your experience?
6
6milessouth,
You know, I haven't used BM's Dulamel, but your observation makes me wonder if something else isn't possibly going on there? How long was it on the wall before you noticed it starting to yellow? And what part of the house are we talking about? I do know that this semi-gloss paint is used primarily in bathrooms and kitchens where moisture content in the air can be high. It's hard to imagine a bleed through with an oil base paint.
It is generally true that oil bas paints will eventually yellow with age(we're talking years and years here, decades actually), but even a good latex/acrylic paint will change color over time. The other downside of oil based paints is that they do tend to gradually grow more and more brittle with age and therefore, become more and more prone to cracking, etc. from expansion and contraction of the wood it's under. I think this is one reason these paints generally don't do as well on the exterior of a house, especially in climates where there are temeperature extremes, and a noticeable expansion/contraction of wood. etc. They aren't porous either the way latex paint is so moisture can get trapped beneath the surface.
BM's Satin Impervo, as a trim paint, is one of the best I know of and I use it exclusively when oil is called for. The gloss is low sheen and once it sets up, really looks classy on woodwork that has been prepped sufficiently. The surface flows out to an almost glassy finish, but you have to use a good brush(chinese white bristle, etc.) and because the paint is a bit thick, you need to thin it a little as you work(small amounts at a time, i.e., 1-2 Tablespoons in your bucket). In hot weather, evaporation happens more quickly and you may need to add more. I have not noticed yellowing of this paint, although maybe after many, many years it might be evident.
BM recently came out with a water based Satin Impervo, but what I've heard about this paint is that it sets up quite quickly and is difficult to work with. I'd love an alternative to the fumes of oil, but even BM's Aquaglo(latex sem-gloss) will simply not give you the same finish(brush marks are more evident). Those painters I know who do quality work all rave about BM's Impervo.
Hope this helps!
Edited 8/24/2004 11:18 am ET by redpine
here's the story. I'm not a painting pro, but a HO (although I paid my way through college painting houses, which certainly does not qualify me as a pro).
I painted all the trim and doors in our house last summer (except the kitchen) with Dulamel before we moved in. A few weeks later, our floors were redone with oil-based poly. After we fully settled in a month later, I noticed that the trim in the kitchen was noticeable whiter than the trim I had painted. So I took one of the doors and held it up against the trim, and sure enough the door looked yellowish -- I mean far from pure white.
The kitchen was painted by the previous owners, so who knows what was used.
There is nothing wrong with the surface, nice and smooth, but I can't help wonder if the floors did some sort of off-gassing that affected the paint, as it was a humid summer and perhaps the paint wasn't fully cured.
Any ideas?
6milessouth,
So, the trim work in the kitchen is ALL uniformly whiter than the trim work in the rest of the house? I'm assuming that all the floors in the house(except the kitchen?) are wood and were refinished? Can you determine that all the trim in the house(except the kitchen trim)has yellowed? If you have some of the original paint, you could test for yellowing by putting a fingerprint's amount on unobtrusive areas throughout the house(side of moulding, for example).
What was on the trim before you painted it? Was it latex or oil? I'm hoping you'll say oil. You can't paint oil over latex(but can paint latex over oil if you rough up the surface with a light sanding). Did you use a primer at all? If so, was it oil or latex?
If there was a reaction to the floor finish one would think that two weeks drying on the trim would have hardened it sufficiently, but oil paint does take weeks to fully harden, so it might be possible that something could affect it's curing.
Also, as to your theory of off-gassing, wouldn't you think that if there was some chemical reaction with the trim, that the trim furthest from the floor would be less affected(trim closer to the ceiling)? If the yellowing is uniform from top to bottom, I guess I'd be leaning to some sort of bleed through rather than off-gassing.
Get back to me on what was on the trim before you painted. The fact that the kitchen trim has maintained it's whiteness sort of shoots down the possibility that the paint itself was defective somehow.
I'd also test the kitchen trim with a fingerprint of fresh paint over what's on there to definitively determine that the difference in value/color isn't due to lighting conditions, for example.
Your scenario in my experience is unusual.
6milessouth,
One more thing: I didn't address the humidity you mentioned. High moisture content might be a secondary cause to your problem. It would tend to slow the drying process, although all paints have "driers" in them to facilitate hardening.
How do you like the high gloss look of the trim?
Redpine, thanks for your response. I think the Dulamel is a semi-gloss and it looks good. Not amazing, and not worth the cost over the impervo (my opinion).
You are right about the kitchen floors, no wood floors. Also, your fear of what's under my paint was shared by me at the time -- I don't know what they painted with before me, but most people tend to use latex, right? Could this cause the yellowing?
Just to clarify, I didn't touch the kitchen trim -- it was white when we moved in, just like the rest of the house. We opted not to paint it because we have other plans for it. The rest of the house got fresh paint -- latex on the walls/ceiling, oil for trim.
I primed with an oil-based Zinser or Killz product. Followed with 2 coats of finish. I don't notice any difference from top to bottom, as far as yellowing. But you know what, the doors are much worse than the other trim and I painted all the doors in the garage in the late summer, fall and into the early winter (I'm slow, yes). I'm starting to think I messed it up somehow -- maybe it was too cold, or I didn't mix it often enough. Maybe since I did the job in stages, the paint in the buckets dried out or lost some of its "whiteness." I've since pitched the empty cans.
My father-in-law uses the Dulamel exclusively and he hasn't seen so much change in color (we live in the same geographical area and buy paint from the same shop, so that's not an issue.)
I plan to repaint in stages and to use impervo. Do you have any recomendations about keeping an open bucket of paint fresh if I can't use it up all at once?
Also, now that I possibly have oil over latex, should I return to latex or can I use more oil -- which looks better in my opinion.
Thanks for your help.
6milessouth
Edited 8/25/2004 11:22 am ET by 6milessouth
if you buy oil paint and dont plan on using it all at once, split it up into 4 one quart cans. You can buy empty metal quart cans with lids at a paint store. Label it and seal em up. For that quart can thats half full, go buy a bag or marbles or get a can of bloxygen or just use some propane if its an oil based paint. shoot some bloxygen or propane into the can and seal it up, Both are heavier then air and will block oxidation of your paint or varnish.
Wouldn't put propane in a paint can, the painter I learned from never went without a lit cig in his mouth (as do many) and propane in the can might give him a pretty rude surprise.
Then again, maybe that would teach 'em
I was going to say the same thing, but thought the oil based might be flammable anyway (though not as volatile as propane!).
6milessouth,
Thanks for clarifying the kitchen for me; I thought you'd painted that room as well.
As for what you had on your trim previous to painting, it depends. A lot of people would much rather paint latex over oil than mess with oil, but I do run across a small number of older homes that have simply always used oil. The older homes were all done exclusively with oil before the advent of latex. You can usually tell what you have on your trim by looking at the surface finish; if you can discern obvious brush marks, you're usually looking at latex. Oil tends to "level" out better than latex which means that those brush marks tend to disappear or are greatly diminished. Another give-away: if you have an area on the trim where the paint has chipped off, pry a bit more off and examine it. If it is brittle and breaks easily, chances are you're looking at oil. Remember I mentioned that oil gets harder and harder with age? Latex, even aged latex, tends to stay much more flexible. Afterall, it's a modified form of rubber, so to speak.
I'm not sure how an oil based primer reacts when brushed on over latex. Latex is a porous paint and I suppose it's possible that the oil primer may have caused a reaction with the latex. You might ask your Benjamin Moore guys about that. And I'm not too familiar with Zinser as a primer except when I"ve used it as a stain-blocker on water damaged paint.
How cold was it in your garage? Anything under 50 degrees is problematic. Especially with oil, because oil takes longer to set up than latex. This might be part of your problem! As well as possibly painting oil over latex.
The paint in the cans it came in will form a skin over the surface(once you've opened them) when not being used for periods of time. You simply need to break the seal of the skin around the paint can's walls, remove the skin and stir what you find underneath. The paint or the paint's color should not be affected by this skin.
Air in the can is what causes the skin to form. Some guys turn their bucket upside down to create an air-tight seal, but there is still air in the bucket. I don't bother with this; i simply perforate the seal, remove it and use what's underneath. I don't think this was your problem.
As for what to do with paint you've got in the bucket you're using to paint from(different than the paint can, right?), you always pour it back into the bucket after you're done painting. You can't leave it in an open bucket and leave it sitting around. This could also be part of your problem.
As for what to do now, that's a problem. Oil over latex is not recommended because oil does not expand and contract like latex. So oil over latex is like putting a relatively brittle covering over something that will expand and contract with humidity and temperature change. You don't want the paint underneath moving more than the paint on the surface. It could definitely lead to cracks, crazing, alligatoring, etc. in the oil eventually. I guess you could chance it. Maybe you actually have oil underneath all of it? Removing all that paint doesn't seem plausible, but you still haven't solved the problem of the yellowing either. I'd use some Satin Impervo over the Duramel on a door and see what happens. It's important that you lightly sand all the glossy surfaces with 180 grit before using more oil. Doesn't take much; just make sure you dull the surface. At the very least use a dust brush after, or better yet, a tack cloth to remove the residue.
I'd still try and touch base with Benjamin Moore; they might have some definitive answers for you as to the yellowing.
Hmmm, there are brush marks in the kitchen trim, so i assume there was latex throughout the house.
As for the skin that forms, I saw plenty of that and did what you suggest -- peel it off and use what's underneath. But are you sure that there wasn't some harm in this? If after painting I let the can sit for a week, the oil/paint will seperate, right? Then the skin that forms is not a uniform mixture of the contents of the can, more oil than paint solids. So when I remove the skin, stir up the paint and go to work, I'm not applying the same mixture as I was when the can was new. I don't know.
As for the temperature, it might have dipped below 50, I'm not sure.
Thanks for your help. At this point I think I'm just going to enjoy my buttery trim.
The advice above is right on. Just to be sure you're not confused in the store, what you want is siliconized acrylic latex. You do not want silicone.
Just a "dumb" do it yourselfer but ... I have never caulked between moulding and the adjoining surface ??? It is two seperate pieces, why would you want it to look like one ? I personally like the look of a seperate piece of material.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
I think they are reffering to the joints and miters of the woodwork itself.
It is two seperate pieces, why would you want it to look like one ?
You can say it's just personal taste but the space between the two adjoining surfaces is never even and tight, so caulking and painting make a better presentation don't you think?
In an ideal world the space would not be there and that's why stain-grade mouldings cost so much more to install.
Edited 8/20/2004 12:29 am ET by TOMCHARK
you cant paint air. The paint alone defines the differences in surfaces, not a crack.
It's a matter of taste really. You wouldn't caulk if you're staining. I have painted trim and caulk everything. The shadows should be defined by the reveals between different pieces of trim. However, gaps take away from the clean lines of the trim and reveals.
If it's properly nailed together and caulked, it will still look like several pieces of trim...unless of course there is someone out there that thinks there is a single router bit that could shape something like dental crown molding. :-)
Also, if there are very thin, hairline gaps, most of that will probably get filled in by the primer anyway.
Just a "dumb" do it yourselfer but ... I have never caulked between moulding and the adjoining surface ??? It is two seperate pieces, why would you want it to look like one ? I personally like the look of a seperate piece of material.
Seamless brother....trim should look seamless.
Gaps are a no-no. Scribing is an art form developed for this very purpose.