I’m going to have about a week’s delay before pouring the slab for my shop, due to getting the right finishers. In the meantime I’d like to get started on the walls. The adjacent driveway area is gravel and fairly flat. I’m thinking of framing sections of wall on the driveway and then using a boom truck to pick them up and move them onto the foundation. There’s a heavy beam to set for the second floor, so I need the boom anyway.
The footprint is 24×32, and the anchor bolt layout is for 2 sections of mudsill along each side. So, this would probably involve framing 4 sections 12′ long x 9′ high, and 4 at 16′ long x 9′ high. Completely typical stick framing with one mudsill, precut studs, 1/2″ 4×10 plywood (yeah that’s right, run vertically)… that’s about it.
Any tips from those who have done this? Obviously I want to set up some sort of level area in the driveway, something that makes it easy to lay out the parts, keep them flat, square everything up, etc. etc. It could be one stack or two, I guess, maybe the 12s on one and the 16s on another.
For lifting, most sections will have at least one opening, so the sling could go under the header. We’ll need to drop them over the bolts, but that’s about as hard as it gets.
Another thing I like about this is that I avoid framing on top of a green slab, with the inevitable scratches and scrapes that will cause.
Replies
The flatter your worksurface the better your walls will turn out. What's flatter than your slab, the driveway? If you're worried about the surface protect it with sheeting, perhaps a deck made from the roof sheeting tacked onto the 2x4 sleepers(inside the soleplates of course). Build the walls, stand them, dissasemble temp deck and sheet the roof. Use hand driven common brights to tack the sheeting down, easier to pull out than gun nails.
But... the slab isn't going in for a while and I need to git framing.
Did it this summer walls sat under a tarp for a week. When I set green pate I have a stepped drill bit 1/2" to 1 1/2" drills and countersinks the bolt in on shot. Cut the left over bolts off with my grinder. Then placed my walls on top of the green plate. And nailed my walls bottom plate to the green plate. When we got the go ahead from the concrete guy, we framed it in a day.
I laid 2x12's flat on the ground for top and bottom plate nailing worked fine for me.
I have to use the 1/4" x 3 x 3 bearing plates on the mudsill, so I'd actually have to route out the bottoms of the plates to fit. Framing with a router... oh well.
It seems like getting the first panel built on a level work surface is that main thing. Then build the rest on top of that. I was thinking of two stacks so that we can put together corners and keep things from falling down.
If your project has any interior walls build them first, they will be on the bottom of the pile last ones to go up. Build them in the opposite order you want to stand them up. So the wall on top of the pile is the first one you want to stand up.
Maybe blue can add to what was already posted here......blueeyeddevil table framinghttp://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=57808.1Edited 2/15/2006 7:31 pm ET by butch
Edited 2/15/2006 7:32 pm ET by butch
One more thought wandered through my brain - Think about the order you want to set the walls in when you erect them. The first wall you need should obviously be on top of the pile. Sure makes things go smoother when you don't have to sort things...
How do you get a man to do sit-ups?
Put the remote control between his toes
Have you thought about building a temporary table to frame the walls on? You can add some plywood on sawhorses and make a decent jog. Blocks can be nailed down on chalk lines to push the plates against to keep them straight.
And you can put blocks on the left or right side so you can have something to use to square up the walls. That's all some truss plants have to build wall panels on.
Gun nails don't always hold well when the walls are stacked and handled. You might think about adding a screw in each corner to help hold 'em together. Or use a few CC hand bangers.
If you have a truss plant around, they may have lifting hooks made for crane setting walls. They're basically a flat peiece of metal with some nail holes and a loop in them,. You nail 'em to the top of the wall and hook the crane up to them to pick the walls up and set 'em.
Make sure you nail them to both a stud AND the top plates. Otherwise the top plates can pull off from the weight of the wall panel.
Whatever you do, don't get under the walls while they're being hoisted. I know of one that came loose and went completely through the subfloor (and one floor truss) of a house. They're heavy enough to kill anyone they land on.
Great suggestion about building a table with some squaring aids on it. I'll definitely do that. I'll probably have to wing it on the lifting hardware since there's no truss plant here, but I can imagine several good ways to do it with some Simpson stuff.
We are seeing the pricing of factory-panelized jobs coming down very close to the price of materials.
That means why bother to bring it all in raw, chop it, build it, incur all that labor and waste, then cart the scrap away and pay the per cwt charge at the landfill.
Thats where it's heading Stinger.
Even though it's panelized ina factory, there is still a substantial amount of work to be done onsite.
Lets not start the debate about waste though. When we panelize onsite, we don't have anymore or any less waste than they do in the factorys.
blue
David - Is there some reason you can't frame, sheath and tilt the walls up in place? You don't need your slab in for that.
If you frame the walls and roof first, then get the place dried in, you are not as dependent on good weather for a good finish on your slab - can even temporailly heat the building if you want when you pour. TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Jim, there's going to be a couple of obstructions poking up out of the middle of the fill, and due to the inspections I need and the sequence in which I can get them, I'd rather just stay off of there, frame the panels on a table, and then set them. I have to use a boom twice on this job, once for the floor girder and later for the ridge beam, and I know I can pick and set the panels quickly when the boom is here the first time.
Basically I'm ready to frame now and it's hurry up and wait on the underslab stuff, the fill, and the guys I want to have do the slab itself. This week my excavator will be coming by to deal with the fill, along with the BI to look at the underslab plumbing and then the underslab insulation, and also the L&I guy to look at the feeder and some underslab pipe for floor outlets.
Well it sounds like an interesting exercise, for sure.
How did your foundation look after you stripped it?TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
The foundation turned out fine. I'd give myself an A for square and level (cuz it is), a B- for placement (looks great on the walls, but a rocky spot in one section of footing, surface only, not running into the pour), a C- for speed of execution (I'm not a speedy formsetter), an A for sturdiness of forms (pumped as fast as we could and no blowouts, not even slight), a B+ for use of material (all floor joists and studs with very little cutting), and a C for cleanup effort required (I have to scrape dimensional lumber whereas a concrete pro would simply throw his panels back on the trailer).
This is the one that I thought about monopouring. After we demo'd the old building I shot everything and there's 18 inches of fall from one corner diagonally across. In addition, we had to dig out up to two feet of topsoil so the hole is deep. It seemed easier to just do two pours, get the footing and walls in there first.
I used metal spreader cleats set on top of 1x4 PT cleats nailed across the footing forms, and Simpson wedge ties.
Gotta go out there and strip the last small section of it, then start scraping lumber.
"I have to scrape dimensional lumber whereas a concrete pro would simply throw his panels back on the trailer."
Any pro I ever worked around scraped their forms for the next job. Oiled them, too.
Sounds like you did good, David. The main thing, the only thing that REALLY matters, is that you came out square, flat, and level (I guess it matters if it's in the correct place, too!).
"I used metal spreader cleats set on top of 1x4 PT cleats nailed across the footing forms, and Simpson wedge ties."
Sounds like you DID pour it "mono". Pouring the slab, walls and footings all at once is another type of monopour, but over here we'd call what you did a "stemwall and footing monopour". Nothing to it, huh? That's why I'm always amazed when people report so much trouble with them.
Anyways, congratulations. Sounds like it came out well and you gained a lot of confidence. That's the greatest, isn't it?
150 skins/yard of 6 sack though? Man, that's some expensive mud!TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
I guess. I don't really want to be a concrete guy, don't want to have wicked concrete skills. The only reason I did this is that it's my own place and my own money. For a customer's job I hire good subs to do it, and stick to my own area. I'd have to say though that I am more accurate than they are in terms of level or square.
The main thing that galls me is that Award does not make a spreader cleat that spaces the footing forms AND supports and spaces the wall forms above. The embedded wood in the footing bugs me, even though everyone does it.
"The main thing that galls me is that Award does not make a spreader cleat that spaces the footing forms AND supports and spaces the wall forms above."
Well, then you would need to place your footings as precicely as your wall forms, and who wants to go to all that trouble?
Rapidform makes a steel spreader cleat for the top of the footings, then I screw a standard 6", or 8" wall spreader cleat to that to position the bottom of the wall forms. Much easier to get the footings "close enough" then snap a line and set your wall forms to the gnat's eyelash.TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
It would have to be a two-part or sliding deal. I can imagine something with a wing nut to allow you to position the top part relative to the bottom. Even when trim guys like me build the footing forms they're still not perfect. I'll take a look for the piece you mention.
"When we panelize onsite, we don't have anymore or any less waste than they do in the factorys."
If you don't wanna start a debate, don't throw out a statement that's total BS.
When we put up the wall panels on this house, there wasn't enough scrap to cover the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket.
If you have to cut all the plate material, door and window headers, and cripples on site you're gonna have waste.
I want to eliminate human suffering - namely mine.
When we put up the wall panels on this house, there wasn't enough scrap to cover the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket.
If you have to cut all the plate material, door and window headers, and cripples on site you're gonna have waste.
I'm up for the debate.
Don't they cut plate material, door and window headers, and cripples in the factory? Unless the trees grow exactly 92 and 5/8" tall, there is going to be some waste, somewhere.
blue
Blue,I know it's just you and Frank when your framing and I've seen your table that you panelized on but I've never really understood the reason why you do your walls on the table and not just do them on the deck. Isn't the deck a big table for you and once the wall is build you just tilt it up with the crane.The one house you did with the wrap around porch that you framed the ceilings from what I remember and lifted them up was a great way to do that. I just don't get it why you just don't frame the walls on the deck instead of on the table and then carrying them over to the deck.Does it not work out with what Frank is doing while your prepping something else and Frank is getting other things done so it's efficient for both of you?Joe Carola
Joe, the advantages of framing on that table are several.
1) we can simultaneously frame the interior partitions and exterior walls.
2) the same guys do all the interior partitions and the same guys do ALL the exterior walls.
3) the materials for building all the exterior walls are staged ONCE. They are always at our immediate fingertips.
4) Less materials are used when building the exterior wall. Every stick of lumber that is dropped is immediately re-used or put back on the original stack. For instance, when we are framing a 13'-9" wall, we decide which pile of linial we want to choose from. We have available 10's, 12's, 14's and 16's. We don't have to walk any further to make one choice or the other. Obviously, we choose the 14' stock. That gives us a 3" drop.
5) We dont have to bend over as much. That's actually a huge time advantage.
6) All necessary tools are on a work station immediatly behind me. After making a cut with a saw, I set the saw at waist level either in front of me, or behind me on my work station.
7) I don't have to load my tool belt with all kinds of tools/nails. In fact, I ditched my "toolbelt" altogether. I know put a hammer holder and knife holder along with a tape holder on a regular belt.
8) I keep a wider variety of fasteners and tools at my fingertips thus providing a better product. For instance, I would never dream of hauling out a chop saw for making routine cripple cuts, but now I have one set up each day. The chop saw obviously delivers truer square cuts.
9) Quality control issues are lessened because everyone knows exactly what product that each person delivered.
10) A huge benefit is gained if your training new employees. On the last few houses I've been training a new guy. Every day we stand opposite each other on the other side of the table. Every day, it's just us...me and him. He gets a crash course in me and my methods. In a very short time, he's able to take over the exterior wall building. I'm talking about going from zero to 100 in a very, very short time. He doesn't know hoot about building a set of stairs, but he can build an exterior wall!
I'll stop at ten, but I'm sure I could double it.
blue
Blue,Sounds like it works for you with great success. I don't get the less materials for exterior walls though. When you do your lumber list don't you figure what length and where all the lumber goes?For me I use precuts naturally for the walls only and certain lengths for shoes, plates and the drop offs will cover all my window sills and jacks, blocking and caps for under the headers...etc.How do you figure your lumber lists or do you even do them?Joe Carola
"...certain lengths for shoes, plates and..."
Joe, could I interupt a second and ask what a "shoe" is? TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
"Joe, could I interupt a second and ask what a "shoe" is?"Jim,The plate that gets nailed to the deck. I've always heard them called shoes but some people say sole plate.Joe Carola
"The plate that gets nailed to the deck. I've always heard them called shoes..."
Is that the same as what I might call the "bottom plate"? Or do you use two plates at the bottom of a wall?TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
"Is that the same as what I might call the "bottom plate"? Or do you use two plates at the bottom of a wall?"Jim,It would be what you call your bottom plate. I use one bottom plate. I nail down the bottom plate to the snapped out chalk lines stopping at all door openings and then I tack my first of the two top plates on the bottom plate and then nail my second top plate to that and lay out and then pull the two top plates back and frame the walls and lift them up. You will see wher the top plates cover all the door openings. Joe Carola
Edited 2/19/2006 11:36 am ET by Framer
Joe - Do you toe nail your studs to that sole plate, then? TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
"Joe - Do you toe nail your studs to that sole plate, then?"Jim,Yes I do. I pull the two top plates back and with the top of the top plate faceing the deck and then I lay all my headers on the bottom plate and nail the headers in and then nail the king studs by toenailing them into the plate and nailing them into the headers and the king studs are vertical. Once all the headers and king studs are nailed I just push them over and they drop to the deck, then we continue to toenail the rest of the studs and raise the walls and then toenail into the bottom plates.Joe Carola
Yeah, that's how I first learned to frame walls in Western Massachusettes. Takes me back. That's what I like about looking at your photos, they have a timeless quality to them what with all the framing members exposed, the "bones" as they say.
Anyways, thanks for the reminder. Heritage is inspiring and comforting.
TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Edited 2/19/2006 1:19 pm ET by jimblodgett
I've never done a lumber list on a rough frame. That's the lumerman's job.
They dont overthink it like that either. I've been on some jobs where all I have is 14' linial...huge bunks of 14' everything! Sometimes we get loads that make sense, sometimes we have to make sense out of the loads. When it's all stacked within 10 of where you're going to frame everything, it doesn't take much headscractching.
Of course we use the drop offs for blocking etc. That was my point about not creating a lot of scrap. The panel factories try to make lumber effieiency their main selling point for charging more for the package in the first place. It's just a shell game in my opinion.
One of our biggest problems since we started doing the panelization is finding enough scrap to keep our fire buckets going. We use a five gallon steel bucket and sometimes I have to chop up perfectly good lumber to keep myself warm because or efficiency has eliminated all the "scrap". I also have started using osb in the buckets because we can't find enough "clean" wood to burn. It's a terrible problem!
blue
"I've never done a lumber list on a rough frame. That's the lumerman's job.""They dont overthink it like that either. I've been on some jobs where all I have is 14' linial...huge bunks of 14' everything! Sometimes we get loads that make sense, sometimes we have to make sense out of the loads. When it's all stacked within 10 of where you're going to frame everything, it doesn't take much headscractching."Blue,What's over thinking? If you do your own lumberlist you know exactly where everything goes. You just said it yourself that sometimes you get loads that make sense and sometimes you have to make sense out of them. That makes no sense and you have to over think right there.I mark my plans in every room the size length and quantity right there on the plans. Plate length and quantity is marked, bracing length and quantity is marked, header material is marked, ceiling joist, rafters, ridges are all marked and so on. The loads I get will always make sense because there's nothing to figure out. Joe Carola
Joe, I don't have any problem framing an entire house with nothing more than 14's. In fact, it's faster because I never have to stop and think. When I need linial, it automatically comes out of a 14! The drops get either used up, or temp stored until something comes along that fits them perfectly.
The one thing that I dont want to do is to have to go refer to a checklist to make sure I'm choosing the exact same piece that I've ordered. I'm not interested in doing that at all.
Like you said, sometimes I might cut the cripples for a window out of a 7'er instead of linial. I don't want to get to the end of the house and find out that I'm short one 7'er, nor do I want to have to check my "masterlist" to see what I've figured for every window.
One of the reasons I hate working with TJI packages is because there is no flexibility built into the package. Using a lumber package of all the dimensional lumber in the same strict way would drive me to become a trimmer.
blue
"Joe, I don't have any problem framing an entire house with nothing more than 14's. In fact, it's faster because I never have to stop and think. When I need linial, it automatically comes out of a 14! The drops get either used up, or temp stored until something comes along that fits them perfectly.The one thing that I dont want to do is to have to go refer to a checklist to make sure I'm choosing the exact same piece that I've ordered. I'm not interested in doing that at all.Like you said, sometimes I might cut the cripples for a window out of a 7'er instead of linial. I don't want to get to the end of the house and find out that I'm short one 7'er, nor do I want to have to check my "masterlist" to see what I've figured for every window.One of the reasons I hate working with TJI packages is because there is no flexibility built into the package. Using a lumber package of all the dimensional lumber in the same strict way would drive me to become a trimmer."Blue,You obviously didn't understand my last post and you are one stubborn mule just like my friend Al who's your age and a perfect example of you can't teach an old dog new tricks. You only have one way of thinking and everyone else’s way is slower and your way is the fastest.You hate truss packages because there's no room for flexibility. That's because there doing the list and not allowing any flexibility, that's why I do my own lumber list and everything, is written right on the plan. How hard is it to look on the plan that you’re already looking at for the floor layout? I use all 16' 2x4's for my layout which cover, shoes, plates, header caps, window sills, jacks and blocking. How hard is that? Every house is the same so all 16' gets used for that.You wouldn't come up short one 7' and you wouldn't have to check a material list for every window because there isn’t one it's all in the 16' already. You’re over exaggerating.Using a dimensional lumber package in a strict way would drive you to become a trimmer is over exaggerating also. There’s nothing strict at all about doing your own lumber list and having it write in front of your face.God for bid if you were to have to do your own lumber list so you can be flexible and get what you want, your head would probably explode.Joe Carola
Framer, if I did a lumber takeoff, I'd do it the same way the lumber guys do it. The take the linilal footage of walls and multiply it by 5 or whatever number they use. Then they turn that number into a stack of 12's, 14's and 16's. 16's are usually a slightly premium price so they tend to send less of that. Sometimes when the prices of lumber shift, 16's are the best buy, so they ship more.
The point that I'm trying to make is that I wouldn't want to have to analyze every wall I build, except in the very specific ways that I've already layed out.
On small remodeling jobs, yes, I've made a lumber list. When I'm dealing with ten sticks of lumber, it's okay, for me to make a written list and stick to it. But on a large job with ten bunks of lumber, I just don't feel the need.
Of course we have to be careful with the 2x10 stock for the decks, especially when there are limited amounts of the longest lengths. In those cases, it would be foolish to NOT pay attention.
I hate TJI packages because I've always had to study them longer than it takes me to stock the entire deck with dimensional lumber! That's been my experience but maybe not yours or others who might have a better mind for working puzzles. Even with my extensive experience with roof truss packages, I struggle to grasp the layout as easily as I have seen some others that I have worked with. It's probably just the way I filter information.
Speaking of stubborn mules...I don't have any problem being called a stubborn mule, thank you. That's one trait that has given me the ability to survive in a trade and business that knocks most people cold...before they survive their first winter!
Thanks for the compliment!
blue
"The point that I'm trying to make is that I wouldn't want to have to analyze every wall I build, except in the very specific ways that I've already layed out."Blue,The point I'm trying to make and I thought I made already is that you’re not analyzing every wall. You keep saying that. For example the first floor plan when you look at my plans in red ink says 2x4's - (shoe/plates) 100/16 (precuts) - 350/9 (bracing) 36/12. That's it. Plus why it's all there is because I'm doing the list and I also have a check list to compare to the ticket when the lumber gets dropped off if there's a mistake somewhere. Everyone already knows that 16' are always for layout and precuts are for walls and 12’s are for bracing. So there’s nothing for anyone to look at.When it comes to floor joists/ceiling joist/rafters there's different length for every section of the house. If you look at the living room section on my plan it says in red ink 38/18 in the kitchen section 26/16 in the library section 32/18 and rafters one section gets 68/20 another section gets 44/18 and so on. There's nothing to guess at or analyze it's all there in red ink.If I'm not there my guys look at the plans and will see what lengths of materials go where and they can't use the wrong length somewhere else and come up short at another section.If a guy starts using precuts for cutting window jacks and sills we will come up short on wall studs but we can't come up short because every length is marked for each section of the house."Speaking of stubborn mules...I don't have any problem being called a stubborn mule, thank you. That's one trait that has given me the ability to survive in a trade and business that knocks most people cold...before they survive their first winter!"I guess from where your from you have to be that way and I can respect thast and that's probably why you don't have patience sometimes and you’re just like my friend Al who I love and bust all the time about being a stubborn mule and telling him you can't teach old dog new tricks and we laugh about it. Al would rather frame something simple and fast and not want to deal with a complicated project that will take to long,When I would get these crazy houses with all bastard hips and valleys with 32' double true valleys and beveling in the bottoms for sheet rocking and different height walls with different pitches with cathedral ceilings he would talk exactly like you do and you even said it to Tim in one of your posts that you don't want to be bothered with stuff like that. It's just that a lot of times your answers are very condescending towards people and you just dismiss what people have to say myself included sometimes like what we do is not even a thought or it's ridiculous without you giving it much thought because you don't have the patience to give it thought. I used to be like that years ago because I met a lot of guys who claimed to be good and had no clue and I was like that but not having patience for seemed to get me in more trouble.Joe Carola
Joe, lets just let it got that we operate in two parallel worlds. We both might be framing homes, but how we get there is like venus and mars.
I don't make lists. I have never been asked to make a list. People would think I'm crazy if I offered or insisted on making a list. Around here, carpenters subcontractors aren't involved in the lumber takeoff phase. Even on the last house that we provided the lumber on, I didn't make the list...the lumberman did! That's what they get paid for. I would be donating my time and he would be getting paid for what I did.
I'm not that generous of a guy!
On every job I might have 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, and quite often 18's and 20's for 2x4 linial. There might be #2 and better, or utility grade.
I also have that array in 2x6's on most jobs.
I get bunks of 7's, a few 8's, 92 5/8, 104 5/8, 10' studs.
I get bunks and loads of a wide variety of lengths of boards and planks.
All of it comes to me in huge piles with usually no layout sheet or takeoff sheet to refer too. I'm lucky to get an accurate accounting of lvl's. It's not unusual for us to make major "in the field" changes to facilitate the material usage and speed up the framing process. In one sub, I used to routinely re-route the entire upper deck layout to make more sense of the lumber lengths and to better facilitate the mechanicals.
So.......when I explain why using panelization is very efficient, maybe you might just accept as fact that putting it all within a very short walk and doing all the walls will be extremely efficient as compared to what the crew next to me is doing. I can also PROVE that our method is significantly more efficient by the size of the scrap pile(s), I've seen piles that would easily fill a 20 yard dumpster....meaning wood only!
So, lets just agree that we do things radically different. I'm sure you have your methods and they work fine for you and you do them for a very good reason. The same is said for me. I know only what I know because that's how I've done it and I'm sure you are the same. You wouln't build on a table and I wouldn't NOT build on a table. I guess were both the same and yet different. The one thing that I can say though, that you can't, is that I've done it both ways. I've platform framed. I've table framed and I've even stood things up bare and toe nailed them to the "shoes" like you have. I've sheathed walls in the air, on the deck and on the tables. Maybe, instead of being more stubborn than I am, you might put your own stubborness aside and try something different. I have and actually enjoy it. For every technique I've used, I've tried and discarded ten and twenty different ones. Can you say the same, or have you been too stubborn to let your imagination run a little on the wild side?
And I'm not exactly like your friend Al. I don't mind doing complicated things, provided I get paid for them. I worked ten or fifteen straight years doing custom frames back when they weren't being done anywhere but in the most exclusive neighborhoods. I made great money back then and lived the good life, earning more than most tradesmen and working only 1/2 or 5/8 of a year. So when I talk about not being interested in doing complicated cut up roofs, it's because I know I'll be doing them for less money than I was getting back in 1989!
No, I'm not interested in doing that.
I don't know how your state is for doing business, but around here it doesn't make any sense anymore to strap some bags on and take an active interest in framing roofs, unless your also interested in earning poverty wages while risking 100k worth of capital investment. No, it doesnt make sense and by walking away from those complicated projects, I refuce my risk to a one or two week period of only my wages and those of some very low paid laborers. Sorry, the times have changed in the framing industry!
Did I used to be interested in cutting all those roofs? Sure. After already learning and knowing how to step off (with a framing square) a "bastard" roof, I did things like calculate a "bastard" hip and all the jacks using nothing more than my pencil and brain. No, I didn't use a calculator, just longhand mathematics and that included figuring the square roots by hand! I couldn't even dream about remembering how to do that, but I did it when I was young and interested and just wanted a different challenge. I don't see anything wrong with that type of interest and I'm very happy that some of you's can still earn a decent living doing that. I can't and therefore I don't get too fired up knowing that I'd be spending extra time losing more money. I guess financial realities have a way of putting a dent in my "fun".
As far as me being condescending, I don't agree, but I might very well be wrong about that. You most likely are taking a lot of my humor wrong or perhaps your more sensitive than most tradesmen. When I talk of things like "man squares" I'm simply saying the type of thing that I would say onsite to create a little good humored friction. This is a site for tradesmen and tradesmen do things like that. Or perhaps you just don't want me standing up and speaking when someone says something that you agree with. Well, sorry, I've always been bold enough to say something, when something I don't agree with is being put out there as fact. That's what makes this site so valuable. I learned a ton out side of this site but I've learned that much more in here from people who were so generous that they'd take the time to explain what they are doing.
I don't think I'd learn so much if we were all homogenous "yes men".
blue
Blue,I know we frame different then one another and I wasn't knocking your panel framing either and never once knocked it. I just didn't understand why you did your walls on the table and you gave me all great answers.For me around here the lumberyards aren't good at doing material lists. The few times they did it on my jobs because some of the builders wanted them to they screwed them up and it cost me time and money waiting for the material to get there or I had to go get it which is something I don't take to well. I don't have time to leave a job for that. That's why I do my own lists."Maybe, instead of being more stubborn than I am, you might put your own stubborness aside and try something different. I have and actually enjoy it. For every technique I've used, I've tried and discarded ten and twenty different ones. Can you say the same, or have you been too stubborn to let your imagination run a little on the wild side?"I've framed in Cape Cod before and framed totally opposite of the way I do now. I would say that I've tried something different. I can say that panelizing walls on a table I won't do because of our sheathing crews. That I will not change."I don't know how your state is for doing business, but around here it doesn't make any sense anymore to strap some bags on and take an active interest in framing roofs, unless you’re also interested in earning poverty wages while risking 100k worth of capital investment. No, it doesn’t make sense and by walking away from those complicated projects, I refuse my risk to a one or two week period of only my wages and those of some very low paid laborers. Sorry, the times have changed in the framing industry!"I sorry it's like that for you there. Here for me since I've framed complicated roofs for so many years it fortunately has gained me some respect around here and a good reputation and hopefully people keep calling me to do there work because it's what I do best and if I can stay busy and make money to feed my family I will keep doing what I'm doing.I bidding on framing a 7000 s/f house right now and watching your thread and Tim's threads about the fork lifts and cranes has been very inspirational to me and if I get this house I will be renting a forklift like I had this past summer that I posted the pictures of.If I strictly framed house all year I would definitely have a fork lift but there’s more money in additions and I’ll frame houses for people I know or who really want me to and it’s profitable. Joe Carola
Edited 2/20/2006 1:08 am ET by Framer
Count your blessings Joe. I'm truly glad that you are able to garner respect for cutting roofs.
I probably would be able to say the same thing if I had chosen to establish my career in additions and remodeing and dealing with the public, rather than dealing with builders. And I probably could choose that path still, but that probably won't happen. We've already started moving out of the subcontractor business and into the building and developing and this year it looks like we will be moving even farther in that direction. It won't be long till I won't have the tools on at all, except maybe my pda and cellphone.
I would suggest renting a machine for your 7000sf frame. There is a small learning curve though and beware that it will possibly change your systems. It will wreak havoc on your normal routine because suddenly the laborers that were spending so much time humping lumber will be standing over your shoulder asking for something to do! I would suggest that someone else run the machine, not you but you will know best what is right for you and your crew. If you are running a small crew, that suggestion won't be so important. You definitely can eliminate at least one man, maybe two when you run a job with a machine and keep up your normal pace.
I worked ten or fifteen straight years doing custom frames back when they weren't being done anywhere but in the most exclusive neighborhoods. I made great money back then and lived the good life, earning more than most tradesmen and working only 1/2 or 5/8 of a year. So when I talk about not being interested in doing complicated cut up roofs, it's because I know I'll be doing them for less money than I was getting back in 1989!
Blue,
Slightly off topic and for my info, I'd like your thoughts on why the above is the case where you live. I just don't get it, why on the complicated stuff is the money less?
Can you describe in more detail, if you want, what the environment around you is like? I'm always interested in the rest of the country because I've spent my whole life in this area. A friend of mine framed for a guy up a little north of me that framed 10,000sq houses. I'm going to talk to him and find out what the money is like. I know in certain areas, people will pay for the better quality or complexity, it's just a matter of breaking into that market I guess.
Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts. You've been at this a lot longer than me.
Tim, nothing in any thread, in any folder is off topic in BT.
The reason that the money is less on complicated stuff is simple: sq foot mentality.
Some houses can be framed profitably at $5 or $6 per sq ft. Profitably means hitting whatever number we have determined to cover our overhead and profit. For us that means about $65 per hour. So on those routine banger houses, we can routinely hit the mark. On some we do better. I used to hit over $100 of some of the bigger easier houses.
When you head over to the custom market, that same $5 or $6 tends to drag along behind you because some of the crews doing the bidding are afraid to "bid too much". So, when they decide that they are going to have to jack up the price to deal with the complexity of a larger cutup custom, they tend to "inch" their pricing up, instead of rocketing it up with a turbo screwjack. So, they timidly come in with a price that trys to keep it under some arbitray ceiling, like $10 per foot or $12 per foot.
Then when they do the house, they end up breaking even and in my neck of the woods, if you "break even" the carpenters think they have hit the jackpot!
The quickest surest way to make money is to build the same house over and over and over and over and over and over....you get the idea. When you try to make money building monsters at rockbottom prices, you eventually could make some good money at it if you built the same house five times to eliminate the mistakes and find the optimum routine. We all know that you don't build that same house five times though.
We're also blessed to have enough skilled carpenters in our area to get all the complicated houses built, even with subpar rates. By the time the carpenter figure out that they are losing, they've trained their apprentice to take over LOL! It's true though, that really happens.
I was looking at a crane. The seller was a long time carpenter that used to have four crews. He specialized in monsters, 10,000 sf and things like that. I asked why he was selling. He said because he had to pull out of the business. He couldn't make a profit anymore.
Our last bid on a big semi custom was 13k too high. Instead of using us at 28k, they found someone to do it for 15k. That would have exceeded our costs and we work fairly efficiently.
blue
blue... i was going to answer tim for you , but you beat me to it..
in construction it's called " the race to the bottom"..
as soon as i read you saying that you could no longer make money on cut-up customs i knew exactly what was going on...
too many clever carpenters who don't know their bottom linesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I bidding on framing a 7000 s/f house right now and watching your thread and Tim's threads about the fork lifts and cranes has been very inspirational to me and if I get this house I will be renting a forklift like I had this past summer that I posted the pictures of.
Joe
We've thought of doing a piece for JLC about using the forklift efficiently for residential sites. Ours are typically about 2500sq +/- 500. There are definitely tricks and a whole new mindset involved with using a forklift. If you get that bid, I can email you with a zillion pics and tell you what we've learned. I think it'll be 4 years that we've used a machine coming up this May.
Mostly, you need 2 or 3 competent drivers and create an environment where there is competition in who is the best driver, ie most controlled, reliable, doesn't drop lumber or create big piles, stacks things so the driver doesn't have to get out of the forklift to grab lumber. Also, what order you want things stacked on the lumber truck. Some of it's intuitive and some of it is just plain learning.
Also, we bought this cart so that we can put a load of studs on it and wheel it around the house. It's great on the larger floors because you can easily move the studs to the walls instead of carrying them, also, we stack a few studs as "stickers" to put the stud pile on, then whoever cuts and nails the kings stud/trimmer combos together can stack them with the pile and there is less to trip over on the deck. In this pic the deck looks cramped, but if I had a wide angle lense for my camera, you'd see that it's not, although that deck was about as small as I'd put the cart on.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9094915/130099935.jpg
Is that a leaf blower on the right side?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yup, makes quick work of cleaning off the deck. We clean up the road a lot so the company blower is in the truck
11. I think the SINGLE most important issue about table framing is the fact you aren't BENT over all day and have that aching back. Besides, blue, didn't you say you had a bad back... 12. YOu take fewer steps in the course of the day= equals saved time13. Why can't you take this "table framing" up one more notch and come up with a "temporary shelter" so your out of the weather Don't know what that temporay shelter would be, but it sure would make life easier on the job.Let me ask all who are involved in the thread, why do people get theirpanties all twisted up when someone does something different. Isn'twhat this forum is all about. Learning from others, picking andchoosing what works and what doesn't for you.Can't we all just get along :->
Why can't you take this "table framing" up one more notch
and come up with a "temporary shelter"
We certainly could create a sheltered area, but that would take all the fun out of working outdoors wouldn't it?
If I was to engage in sheltering activities, I'd probably first opt to figure out a way to keep the wind off me during cold days. I hate cold winds as much as I hate mud. I could very easily create a quick windbreak by framing one wall, then leaving it hooked up to the crane and have it act as a leanto in front of the wind. I actually almost did that one day on the last house, but when I thought about the slightly extra hassle that it would create, I opted not to.
I do have anotherr item:
14) we stay out of the mud! When we set up the table, it's very easy to lay a walkway around it. I usually drop some linial, then overlay that with some osb. I'm then walking on relatively clean, slightly bouncy plywood for the next couple of days. It's easy on the back and legs and we certainly don't miss waddling around in the mud on the rainy or melt days.
The house stays a lot cleaner too because we typically don't have too many people leaving the deck, or going back and forth. I make a visit to the deck when we send a wall, to pick up the pertinent layout marks for the next wall. But, after that, I don't go up there unless we have some issue to discuss.
Butch, you're right about my back. I have several herniated disks from when I was in my twenties. I've lived with chronic back issues since then and table framing has been a godsend for me. My back hurts right now as a type simply because I lifted a five gallon bucket of paint (I'm painting the condo while I have some time).
blue
Panties all twisted up?
I don't even wear underwear :-) Commando style and a Utilikilt for me heheh
I wonder why no one will hold the ladder?
I don't even wear underwearway to much info there and thanx for the warning :)
"Unless the trees grow exactly 92 and 5/8" tall, there is going to be some waste, somewhere."
I thought we were talking about waste on the jobsite only. Apparently that's not what you meant. Sorry if I misunderstood.
You MIGHT be able to get by with a little less cost and a little less waste. We used to spend a fair amount of time figuring out what length of lumber it was cheapest to cut things out of. Like sometimes we'd have 7' lumber to cut cripples out of instead of using 8' lumber.
But I doubt it would be enough to make a huge difference.
It's not how you pick your nose, but where you put the booger.
You MIGHT be able to get by with a little less cost and a little less waste. We used to spend a fair amount of time figuring out what length of lumber it was cheapest to cut things out of. Like sometimes we'd have 7' lumber to cut cripples out of instead of using 8' lumber
Acutally boss, that's not a waste of time, nor a waste of money. I do it all the time on every wall! Every piece I cut I make a rational decision and if I have multiple parts to cut, I most assuredly think it through before I start whacking. My goal is to end up with pieces smaller than 5 or 6 " to fit nicely in the fire bucket. I hate ending up with 8'' pieces...too small to save. I have been known to nail 8" pieces together to make draftstop blocking though!
blue
I would think that the factory would have less waste because of the ability to stack up offcuts that are not used on one project and work them in later. Very few folks would cart them to the next job. I am a packrat that hates to throw anything away and hate to see a 3' piece of 2x go in the dumpster when it can be used for a cripple later.
I would have to support you that if you plan carefully (or just use good judgement) you can do it with very little waste. Hat is off to you for you obviously know how to do it right. Unfortunately most do not work that way. I borrowed some guys from a buddy when I got in over my head last year and cringed when they tossed pieces of 2x4 in the dump trailer that I knew we would be needing just an hour or so later on the same job.
Edited 2/18/2006 1:13 pm ET by rasconc
I would think that the factory would have less waste because of the ability to stack up offcuts that are not used on one project and work them in later.
Thats about the only point that the panelizers could make that would hold water.
Of course, if your in a sub, you can do the same thing. If I'm doing multiple houses for the same builder, I would (and I have) recycled the drops from the t&g subfloors if there was anything worth bothering with. There usually isn't. We just send all the other uncut dimensional lumber back though. There really isn't anything useful left from dimensional cutoffs either. They get used up in the "punchlist" mode.
Good point.
Butch is right. I do this all the time.
Heres a shot of our table that we temp build. It consists of four I joist about 18' long with two 8' headers. The interior joist are set into hangers and tacked. The osb plywood is also tacked. The concrete blocks make the unit the perfect height, but we shim if on uneven ground. We don't do anything extraordinary to make this perfectly flat or level. It really doesn't matter. Flat is the key, but if it has a little twist, it won't normally affect anything.
The second picture shows a wall that is alread formed. Since it doens't have a convenient header, we install a strap before we lay the osb sheathing. In the picture you can just barely detect the strap. The larger blue arrow is pointing to the strap as it wraps around the top plates. The smaller arrow points to the excess strap laying on the ground. That particular wall will receive the entire overhang system before we send it. When we have it braced the strap will be pulled out (sometimes the crane has to pull them if the osb is tight. After removal, we finish nailing the sheathing on that section at the top.
David, I wouldn't hesitate doing it this way. It's fun, less strain on the back from bending and very effiecient with the materials.
Incidently, we will be using the tacked sheets of osb on the roof before we leave that job. We'll knock down the IJOist and header and reuse them on the next frame we do. Also, the block is intentionally set to give me a step up onto the table.
I have built only one garage that required me to install these walls over anchor bolts. We had the luxury of drilling the holes first before the walls were framed. That will be your biggest challenge but if you do anchor bolts all the time, you won't have any problem.
blue
That is one sweet setup Blue. How long have you been doing this? What's the biggest wall you've done this with?
Nice chair :-) I've been thinking about getting one of those massage chairs mounted into the box van, but I have a feeling no one will work hehehe
Tim, this would be my second year doing the onsite panelization.
We've set a number of 32' x 10' walls. Most three car garages are about that long with the studs ranging in lengths of 9' to 12'.
It's entirely possible that we've built a wall a little longer maybe 35-26 feet but I don't remember any 40 footers.
I have built a few walls that were too heavy for the crane to lift and set. When that happens we hook up the jib on the skytrak and let the machine grab them. The jib lets us keep the boom at a lower angle, thus reducing the tendency for rollover. The skytrak is pretty efficient at grabbing and setting the walls, but we don't like to have to unload it if it's in service doing something else, so we normally use the crane. The sound of the crane tells the deck guys that a wall is coming, so they immediately prep to recieve it (lay a bead of glue under the wall, get braces and ladders, etc).
The chairs are garbage picked.
blue
ah, i see you have a supervisor's chair just like i do.. smart man!
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
david,
look into SIPs, actaully lower cost than stick built (once you add the cost of insulation)
I've seen SIPS being installed on TV once. My question was... how they gonna run any wire in those walls? They're OSB on both sides.
david
When you order the SIP's they put the wire chases where ever you ask them to.. Or you can do as I did,.. order them without wire chases in them and put my own where ever I wanted.. It's very easy to use a spade bit and several extensions to drill right thru the foam.. it takes but a minute or so and even fat old out of shape me had no problem doing it quickly..
David,
I'm coming late into this discussion and I can't remember if you have a gas curb or it the slab sits on top of the stem wall.
If you have a stem wall already poured why not frame off of that? I'm guessing that you have a long wall that you could set the bottom plate of your first wall on and frame away from the slab. I don't think you would get in the way of the finishers if you did that.
You could install your sill plate and already have a flat and straight surface to start from and you could tack your bottom plates to the sill plate to keep everything in order.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
In case it sounds like my approach will be harder, or more costly, I don't think so. It will cost $100 that otherwise *might* not get spent, for the boom. But without the boom, I need guys to help me stand up walls. I don't have that, at least not reliably, and I don't have jacks or a place to anchor them on a wood deck. If I have a guy here to tilt walls, it will cost more than the boom will.
I can frame a stack of eight panels by myself, alternating that with stuff I need to do next week to get drainage, underslab plumbing, etc. done. The excavator will be working but does not need a lot from me, probably a few hours per day.
So, he can work, I can work, I can frame, and when the boom comes to lift my floor girder, he can set the walls first. I'll have another man on hand for that hour or so.
David,I'm not communicating well. What I'm saying is frame the walls just like you would if you were framing on a first floor deck, the only difference being that your top plates are 8' out over the backfill instead of sitting on the deck.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I understood that part. It would make the other stuff I need to do this week very hard--get the fill in there, get a VB and insulation down, get inspections, etc. Here's what it looks like at the moment, 20-30" deep overall.
HEY, HEY, HEY!!! THAT'S ENOUGH!!!
You KNOW you're not supposed to post any pictures with blue sky showing! Cripes, now we'll have 150 more of them coming into the State!TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
I photoshopped that in so you guys wouldn't have to feel sorry for me living in such a lousy climate. Got a solid prison pallor going right now, and a lot of windburn, my truck is completely caked with heinous clay mud, and my dogs won't even go outside. The sun will usually be out by May. It's horrible, definitely don't come here.
Yeah, that's batter. Geez, man. Gots to protect the home ground.
Hey, as long as we're on the subject, what type moss scraper do you use to clean your windshield in the morning?TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!