I am so on the fence about which connection system to use with Pex. I was a big fan of Sharkbites, but now have major doubts about this product. I checked out the Wisbro Uponor expander system, which was the most lauded, and that seems very labor intensive, you might as well solder copper.
I am leaning towards going with a copper or stainless steel crimping system, but not sure which one to go with. There are so many systems out there, there is even a guy pumping them out of his garage that advertises on ebay. I would go with a Wisbro Uponor cordless set-up, but at $500-$1000, that seems excessive except for a full time plumber.
I am surprised that there are so many choices out there, and that one standard has not prevailed. What is code approved?, least costly material and labor wise, readily available-in a sense what would you take into the trenches with you if you had to go to war?
Replies
I checked out the Wisbro Uponor expander system, which was the most lauded, and that seems very labor intensive, you might as well solder copper
you aren't even close... i could make up 20 upnor joints in the time you cleaned fluxed and soldered ONE copper joint... and i wouldn't risk burning anything AND i'd bet out of 100 joints you'd have at least one that needed to be redone... I'd have zero...
and just wait til you get to the 1.25 1.5 and 2" fittings....
i know what you thought you had gathered... but the answer you came up with is flawed
P
I was just going off this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z06qjFxGjI&feature=PlayList&p=6422751259C9C667&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=15Is there something I am missing?
just kinda beat'n a dead horse... this topic has been visited way too many times... i have been sweat'n copper since i was 15... and haven't picked up a torch in 2 years to make a common plumbing connection...
we only use the electric expander when it gets to 1.25" material or alot of 1"
p
I have the Wirsbro/Uponor manual expander, for ½- 1" , it really could not be much easyer. Have yet to have a leak, the tool was cheap.
How much and where to get that tool?
pexsupply $289
http://www.pexsupply.com/controller.asp?N=0&Ntk=primary&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=%20expander
Thanks.
That vid is about right -- but I usually only need 3 expansions to get it done on 1/2" or 3/4" -- which will cover 90% of residential use. I'm a bit puzzled how anyone could call that too much work! ;-)
It really is pretty quick - maybe a minute each fitting. Also, remember you'll need fewer fittings than with rigid pipe, so you gain there as well.
Can't compare Uponor with crimp-on style, 'cause I've never used it. But comparing Uponor to copper, PEX is the only way to fly.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
The hand expander works...but if you are going to do a lot of connections, especially 3/4 and 1, you better have lots of muscles. Your hand will get tired real fast. You will need to break down and get the cordless or air powered. I have the air powered.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
I have bought a few on e-bay. Usually $150-175 and they were all in excellent condition.
Good tip, thanks.
The retail price is a bit steep for us occasional
plumbers.
Went with Wirsbo and it's great. Very easy to use. Sometimes you need to balance the one end of the tool against your hip so you can push with one hand and hold the connection with the other.Only spot I've run into that's been at all problematic is if a connection needs to be made in a space smaller than the tool. Had some connections that fell in a 5" space between joists. With some grunting you could make the 1/2" bend enough to expand the end, connect the fitting and slide it all into place. For the 3/4" the crimp style would have been fine, but there was no way you could use the expander. Had to use some sharkbites to take care of that.I know you and Steve are working on antique homes there, so just keep that in mind.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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I've read that tight spaces can be hard with the expander, but
knowing Steve we won't be using any crimp rings. (Maybe, I could sneak a Sharkbite or two in here and there) Steve-
These aren't the droids your looking for...
Edited 4/12/2009 9:55 am ET by Henley
Just tell him that the sharkbites are a new system from AppleThe iSocket;)'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Ha ha, Very good.
Do you know when the new Wii Drywall Sanding comes out?
I think you are making the wrong decision - Uponor is the only way to go IMO.
I've been using the expansion system with a hand expander and auto-rotator on 1/2" - 1". Couldn't be happier. 1/2" is child's play and the ability to expand away from tight quarters and then push the hose onto the fitting is much easier than fighting to reach the joint with crimpers.
Crimp sucks compared to expansion. My plumber buddy was certified in Viega crimp with his former employer and after one use of the Uponor system he was convinced it was a better product.
Hope to put the air to the system tomorrow, maybe just straight to water. Very confident right now but we'll see how it goes.
If you do go with Upnor, I wouldn't worry about the cordless. I can do a 1/2" joint manually in probably 1/4 the time. If you have a lot of 1" then the cordless in nice.
Our shop has used all the systems, we like upnor the best.
This was the kind of info I was looking for. I want to go with the Wisbro system, but the video made it seem very time consuming.
Just out of curiosity, what are your "doubts" about Sharkbite, other than the cost?
I was a huge fan of the Sharkbites. These are my concerns: Long term viability of the connection. There is only a rubber "O" ring, nothing else.Inside diameter of the 1/2" connections is smaller than 1/2" copper, causing a drop in pressure to the fixture.The fittings come with a carcinogenic warning, that advises you inform the clients that you are using this product.For ease of use, there is nothing like the Sharkbite.
How might the Sharkbites differ in comparison to the Gatorbites from Lowes?
I know they cost less than the Sharkbites and I wonder about the price gouging of the Sharkbites in that at times I use a local lumberyard which only sells the Sharkbites and the local plumbing shop that only sells the Watts fittings.
Both Watts and Sharkbites wanted an arm and leg for the a single little plastic U-shaped tool for the fitting removal when the Lowes Gatorbite line gave a package of 3 for like $1.76.
If I recall correctly the Watts are made in China and the Gators are a UK product. Unsure of the Sharkbites but the components appear very similar to the Gator.
Edited 4/13/2009 11:52 am ET by rez
I bought a package of the Sharkbite removers, and I don't recall it costing over $2. The fittings themselves aren't cheap, of course.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
The Sharkbite removal "tool" you only need one for each size and they should last until they are lost.If the Lowes is the one that I am thinking of they are from Italy. And to remove then you need wrench and/or pliers.The kit is not a removal tool, but replacement o-ring and grab teeth. The are one time use.PS they also have some spun copper ones that are much cheaper. But they are one time use and it appears that you need to cut the pipe/tubing if you want to disconnect them..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I've seen the ones he's talking about at Lowes. They are made in the UK. Haven't tried them out, but they look very similar to the Sharkbites.I do have some of the ones from Italy (just walked downstairs. Looks like they are from a company called CIM). Much heavier construction on them than the Sharkbites.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Either they have different brands in different areas or they might have changed suppliers since I last looked at them in detail..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Seems I recall seeing some smaller diameter copper fittings there that only came in a bulk package where you had to buy a bag of like 10 at a time. Didn't pay much attention to them.
The blue U-Shaped removal tool for the GatorBites was displayed alongside the GatorBite fittings and I ended up using it when finetuning the placement of a shower control so they are meant for the GatorBite.
Pretty straight forward apply pressure and release.
I'm trying to decipher the exact differences between the SharkBite and the GatorBite fitting as the brass housings appear to be identical as perhaps from the same manufacturer
the only seen difference involves a later applied identification stamped on the outside of the housing.
The collared tubular supports for use with pex differ a small bit in size and color shade between the two.
They come loose and enclosed inside the ziplock baggie along with the fitting in the GatorBites
but the SharkBite fitting comes with the tubular supports already placed inside the brass housing which means they should need removed for use in connecting to copper, in my opinion,
as why shrink down the flow diameter if not needed no matter how minute the consequence.
I recall not seeing any detailed instructions for the removal of those SB tubular supports and am hesitant to remove them running the risk of influencing the small metal teeth that secure the pipe to the fitting
as the supports contact those teeth on removal and I'd rather not want to run the risk of altering the manufacture set by rough horsing around inside there.
I mean if there is a problem I'm the one who gets the call back and there's no money in those kind of callbacks.
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
It seams like they are very good, but not to be buried where
you can't get at them. Ten year warranty if memory serves me right. Not exactly comforting,
but better then no warranty on copper. I never noticed the carcinogenic warning, were can I find it? Oh, and I'm far from an expert but... It stands to reason that in
residential work with properly sized runs the flow shouldn't be a problem.
> I never noticed the carcinogenic warning, were can I find it?Everything causes cancer in California.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
True, very true...
So I can stand in Nevada, along the border with Cal. and get or not get cancer with my shark pipe hooka?
If one was so inclined...
I cannot locate it. It may appear on the packaging.Actually a 25 year warranty, and you can bury them in walls, and underground.I found this on their website: SharkBite¯ is now approved to the new ASSE 1061 standard for push-fit fittings.The SharkBite¯ push-fit fittings are listed by IAPMO and are certified for potable and hydronic heating water distribution (note: Glycol mixture for hydronics is not to exceed 50% concentration). The SharkBite¯ push-fit fittings have been certified for underground applications and as a manufactured joint without access panels and they meet UPC, IPC and cUPC requirements.Please consult with local plumbing codes concerning specific applications.
Good info,thanks My point was, the O ring question is a common concern. Most
prefer to keep them accessible.
The water company uses something not too different on the cast iron (and now plastic) water pipes they bury. These are generally rated to last 75 years.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
I just came across another issue with Sharkbites. My local inspector just laughed when I mentioned them-I mean the attitude these guys have-they are not legal where I live.I have found several items for sale in stores that are not allowed by code. Another one is an Air Admittance Valve.This stuff all works fine, the powers that be just operate at a Medieval pace.I tried to purchase a Wisbro Pex expander from my local plumbing supply store and was given the "5th degree". I was informed that you had to be certified. They teach a "class" once a month or so, and they reluctantly took my name and number down when I asked them to let me know when their next class was. Jeez.I just purchased an expander tool online. I will make sure that I never, ever, purchase anything from them again. I will gladly take their "class" though if they ever call me back.
I have been using the hand operated expander for over 10 years. Just finished my sons three bath two story house with sprinkler heads. 28 man-hours to do all of the dw using a manifold system. I am not a prof plumber but I don't think a prof plumber could have done it in less time
"I am not a prof plumber but I don't think a prof plumber could have done it in less time"
Are you kidding? At $70/hr, it woulda taken a plumber at least TWICE as long! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hey Mike, how are you doing? Do you ever run into Mark from Energy Reduction?
Nope. Am I mis-remembering, or aren't you the one who told me he had left the business?
The place is abandoned and I've not heard anything about either of the guys.
Too bad -- good guys. Also too bad 'cause if I'da known they were going out, I woulda bought some of their stock. Getting Uponor stuff around here is tough.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
They let Mark go two weeks before they closed. I showed up with a bag of cash and they would not even fill my last order! Shipped everything back to the factory.. .everything! I have ended up going to http://www.pexsupply.com but I do miss the one on one info.
Edited 4/14/2009 10:52 am ET by GRCourter
Let him go? I thought it was pretty much his business -- he was the guy with the know-how for sure. Must have been some sort of repo for credit due, and the last 2 weeks was just to close up the books. Shame, tho'.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA