Ply Sheathing…perp or parallel?
FlyingContractor
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Just gathering opinions on how everyone does their plywood sheathing, long edge parallell to studs or perpendicular?
Replies
As far as I know you can sheath either way with osb but with plywood it's only horizontal.
There was an argument here about three years ago on the subject.
I'd always put it up horizontal (Plywood) because the strength axis is lengthwise and it's often spec'd that way for windshear.
But, some smartazz got the link for the APA (American Plywood Assn.) which stated it could go either way under most circumstances, while pointing out the orientation of the strength axis.
I don't recall what was said about OSB, but I rarely use it anyway.
I have noted plywood installed vertically in this area (PNW) on commercial and some residential....
"There was an argument here about three years ago on the subject."There are always arguments on everything here even though we all do things different ways or opposite ways and get the same good results.We run plywood horizontal starting at the sills and work our way up. Never seen or heard of or ever put a block in at the edges before until I read it here.The only time you would have to put a block in is if the sheathing didn't land on the first of the two top plates, you would have to put blocking in. I solve that depending on the pitch by notching out the bottom of the birdsmouth so the plywood slips behind it to nail to the plate.
Joe Carola
William Spence's book says that vertical sheathing with perimeter nailing is strongest against lateral loading. Horizontal sheathing with edges unblocked and seams staggered is about 75% of the strength of the vertical pattern, and identical if all seams are blocked. End vertical panels are about 40%, and two let-in braces give about 10% of the lateral load strength of the vertically sheathed wall. He doesn't give references to where he got these figures.
Most walls which are completely sheathed with OSB or plywood and finished with interior drywall are plenty strong enough against lateral load whichever way you orient the sheathing.
we always frame plywood horizontally with each upper row overlapping the bottom joint by 4'.
If you apply the sheet vertically you have a 8' joint top to bottom. A wall framed this way will easier bent out of shape.
We NEVER frame with OSB
A wall framed this way will easier bent out of shape.
True, but braces will bring either one back to straight. Your going to need the braces either way to hold it for the top framing.
blue
Of course you need braces until the roof is finished
I am thinking about later. BTW we always sheath the walls on the floor, then raise the walls.
Lately preframing panels in a warehouse makes a lot of sense.
Did a 2800 sqft bungalow outsidewalls in 4 hours with 4 guys
If you apply the sheet vertically you have a 8' joint top to bottom. A wall framed this way will easier bent out of shape.
Whaaa? In what way do you mean bend? Normally, a joint might be a weak spot on a structure, but not in this case. The increased fastener count along both sides of the seams keeps those sheets to the stud... unless you can point out how a stud can tear all the way down it's length do to a shearwall connection. Plus, you have at least 3 studs that do not stop on that joint running the length of the wall, 2 at the top and one at the bottom. Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Why would the rules be different for osb vs. plywood?
My understanding is it can be done either way as long as perimeter is nailed continuously. That is why it is stood up, to avoid putting blocking at 48", and also why 9' or 10' ply is used if the plates are more than 8' apart.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Horizontal, always.
We've always run it horizontal, but I'm convinced either way is acceptable. Around here I'd get laughed at for hanging it 'wrong' if I hung it verticle. Funny how most of the guys who laugh at others actually end up being the ignorant ones, huh? Anyway, I think either is acceptable. I know it's acceptable with OSB, but I'm not 100% sure about ply.
I prefer horizontial, but was told by my inspector that horzontial is not as sound unless you block at the seam. I disagree but what are you gonna do?
Horizontal sure makes nailing a lot easier, especially when the wall is already up. When the first sheet arrived on Larry Haun's site back in the late 1950s (good article in latest FHB), I'm glad he didn't hang it diagonally or that's probably how we'd be doing it today (Ha!).
I'm glad he didn't hang it diagonally or that's probably how we'd be doing it today (Ha!).
*chuckle*
I used to live in a town that used the UBC, it didn't matter if the sheathing was horizontal or verticle as there was no requirement for blocking of horizontal seams.
Now, in a town that follows IRC, it's been an adjustment to use verticle sheets or go through the extra labor to install blocking at all seams. It seems like overkill for a place with no scismic activity and only moderate wind loads.
Other than structural issues, verticle sheets do prevent a good deal of air infiltration, at least in the average house with so-so house wrap.
Don
Perpendicular to the framing.
Same goes fer sheetrock doll gernit!
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Boy you guys are stubborn. The engineers have destroyed walls looking at this. IRC and UBC require blocking at ALL edges if it is structural if you dont use approved alternate methods..such as let in diagonal bracing. Thats why I was kind of wondering about Mike Smiths project as I didnt see any blocking.
I've never seen blocking at the edges, either. In my 2000 IRC, R602.10.7 addresses blocking, and then says: "Exception: Blocking is not required behind horizontal joints where permitted by the manufacturer's installation requirements...." I'm guessing the plywood manufacturers say it's not needed.
I'm not a pro, so I could be misreading the code.
read the code for wind constrcution... and shear walls
when you start trying to conform to theose requirements you'll be doing a lot of different things with your plywood
and plywood isn't even a requirement in a lot of jursidictions .. other than the corners.. if you are trying for a shear wall corner , you're going to have to stand the sheet up
horizontal.. vertical.. not nearly as important as tieing the sill to the top plateMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I run em vertical. top plate to bottom. Anyone else use 16d into the plates? Anyone use the Simpson manufactured shear walls?
Sheet rock is hung horizontally to minimize tape seams, not a strenght issue.
Sheet rock is hung horizontally to minimize tape seams, not a strenght issue.
Never suggested it was.....although an argument can be made that an eight foot seem is weaker than a four foot seem.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
paralel to studs.plate to plate.
Check this out. http://www.lpcorp.com/literature/lp_osb_sheathing_specifications_spec_applications.pdf
it's burried in the fine print but if I understand it right, it can go either way. Tis news to me since I always ran it perp to the framing.
That APA page gives different shear specs for blocked (240 lbs/something)and unblocked horizontal (180 Lbs/)- see the chart on page 4, towards the right (and the nailing schedule in the chart on page 3)
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Most residential walls around here, (northwest Fl.) are sheathed vertically. Any horizontally run plywood has blocking. I'm not sure if it's code required. I assume it is, but I'm to lazy to look it up right now.
When I lived in New England, we always ran it hoizontally. I remember framing apartment houses in about 1968 when plywood prices spiked. We went back to 1x10 spruce for all sheathing and subfloors. As I recall, several kegs of 6d were hand nailed by our crew in short order.
Most builders around here use OSB for wall sheathing. We run ours vertically, with the long edge parallel to the studs. We block the seams and run the OSB from the bottom of the bottom plate to about 1/8" below the top of the double top plate.
I'd like to use some of that new sheating that is made to go from bottom plate to double top plate. It would save some work with blocking and/or cutting.
I'm glad I could open up yet another lively discussion!
Around here, Northern California, I've typically seen vertical sheathing panels. I also block ALL edges of my ply as well (I interpreted the UBC to require this as well, and since I'm in earthquake country, it's probably a good idea).
The reason I started the discussion is that it also seemed logical to me that since ply like sheetrock is stronger across the sheet, wouldn't it be better to hang horizontal...although since ply is engineered the strength is probably equal for both orientations, and hence the "hang either horizontal or vertical" answer.
Second thing, I am one of those guys who likes to stagger seems, and I admit I get alot of ribbing for that, saying it's completely unnecessary.
Thanks again for all the feeback guys!
I find it curious that, building in a seismic zone, sheathing is not always staggered (walls and roofs). What kind of hairball outfit are you working for?
Since West Coast Seismic structural requirements are not fully addressed in the IRC, engineering is almost always required, and staggered sheathing is always specified along with varying degrees of solid blocking, in my experience.
The exception might be portal walls, which are limited to 8' and are usually sheathed vertically, but then there is the heavy anchoring and strapping requirements.
Edited 1/30/2006 10:52 am by Notchman
Around here, Northern California, I've typically seen vertical sheathing panels.
I have seen that, too, visiting CA. My assumption was that, since the shear panels & corners are almost allways "vertical," that it made sense to butt the non-shear sheathing in the same direction. That, and CA being black diamond framing territory, sheets aren't always going to "hit" framing "pretty" in either direction--so why bother changing orientation.
But, that's pure WAG on my part.
Here in central Texas, most sheathing is run horizontal, whether that's a better direction or not <g>.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You guys who block horizontally when you run your sheathing perpendicular to the studs, do you block for your roof sheathing too?
And you guys who run your wall sheathing vertically, do you run your roof sheathing paralell to the rafters/trusses too?
Just looking for a little consistancy of logic here. TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Good questions Jim.
Actually, i've never met a young framer who intuitively understood that there was any significant difference laying a roof horizontally or vertically. I've had to tell every one that I've ever worked with to change some pieces on the floor as well as the roof. Then when I try to mix things up on a wall, they cant understand that it really doesn't matter....because it doesn't. They can't grasp that the weakest method is strong enough in non-seismic zones for walls only.
Actually, this is a fairly frustating thing to discuss for me. I like to eliminate as many visible seams as possible but I don't like to waste product either. As a result of these seemingly conflicting philosophies, I often end up having some non-productive discussions regarding wall sheathings.
Inconsistenly yours,
blue
I am a builder the pacific NW around Seattle. Here you HAVE to run your wall sheating verticle and if you have any field joints they have to be blocked and nailed. We use lots of 9 and 10 ft sheats of OSB for walls. If you dont use the full length sheathing then you have to use A35s at all plate lines @ 32inches OC. We also have an inspection just for the nailing of exerior sheeting and LRPs here. I have stacks of prints for houses that have been structurally engineered and they ALL specify verticle sheeting.
Let me assure you that this has been studied to death here (The building departments are always looking for ways to make us spend more money) and if it was stronger to install sheathing on the walls horizontaly thats how we would be doing it. I'm sure that living in a sizemick area makes a difference.
Where are you in Pac NW? We are in Port Orchard and no one runs sheathing horizontally because it's a waste of labor.
The last custom I did required seam blocking in the rafters 4' O.C. for the first 8' inboard of the gable. The overkill on that house was unbelievable....nearly every interior bearing wall and ALL exterior walls were plywood sheared inside and out....over $1800 in Simpson straps, drag struts, hold downs, hangars, etc.....and made for a lot of extended door jams and box extensions for wiring, extensions for the central vac plugs....pain in the but and a lot of added cost to the HO. That house could fall off the ridge it's perched on and probably only suffer a few broken windows).
Yesterday, we had a pretty good blow here. A newly framed 2 story spec. house, sheathed at the corners with the trusses set and braced, came all the way to the ground.....essentially a pile of kindling to cleanup and redo....I'll try to find out the particulars, but most of us down here have all the walls sheathed before the trusses are rolled.
And most of us down here ("down" from you anyway) sheath horizontally, both for wind shear and seismic (usually an engineering requirement).
The APA website will attest to greater shear strength of plywood along it's long axis, but the difference is small against vertical.
One other thing....all the 1/2" and 5/8" CDX I see is 5 ply doug fir, and the 3/4" is 7 ply, but I guess there's a lot of the 4 ply stuff in other regions.
"...all the 1/2" and 5/8" CDX I see is 5 ply doug fir, and the 3/4" is 7 ply..."
Stop it, Notcher, you're hurting me, man. I haven't seen any 5 ply 1/2"CDX since...well, since I don't remember when. I mean, it's scary to stand on this stuff we get up here. 7/16" OSB is so much better it isn't even a discussion anymore.
5 ply 3/4"CDX is the norm here. It's so bad that you wouldn't want to put your name on a roof sheathed with that crap, either. That stuff is so wriggly a snake would have a tough time navigating across a sheet.
I'm past it now, man. We get real nice OSB sheet goods now and they have figured out how to seal the edges. When it comes to sheathing, I'm an OSB guy through and through (but I try my best to keep it dry).
TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Jim,
What siesmic zone are you in? We are a D2 right now with rumors of going to E, which the inspector told me is the same as SoCal. That should be fun.
We hang all sheathing on walls vertically, 9' sheets on 8' walls, 10' on 9' walls. We block panel edges on taller walls but run them vertically. So far the engineer tells us that we don't need to block a roof because it's so large and doesn't have holes (windows/doors) in the diaphragm. Maybe someday we will.
"What siesmic zone are you in? We are a D2 right now with rumors of going to E, which the inspector told me is the same as SoCal. That should be fun."
I can't imagine Thurston County is much different than you are, Tim, especially around the Sound. I haven't built anything with inspected sheathing since we changed to working under the I.R.C. But I'll have to really pay attention next time I do. There have been framers running their sheathing vertically for years hereabouts, but they didn't have to.
You ever work up in Des Moines? Now THERE are some interesting codes, I guess the result of a class action lawsuit regarding noise from SeaTac airport - triple glazed windows, double sheetrock ceilings, a bunch of other unusual requirements. Plus they have all the siesmic stuff. TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Young guy who used to work for us I thought was framing in Des Moines about 4 years ago and the subfloor was inspected for shear, the walls were, and the roof was. You had to frame and sheathe the floor and go to the next house until you got inspection. Now that would be a pain. Right now we have "underfloor framing inspection" and it ticks me off to no end. The building department either shows up at 9am or 5pm. We usually have the floors framed by noon and want to get subfloor down and lines snapped.
GREAT GREAT POINT!!!!!!!! Things that make you go or say . . . HMMM?
perpendictular to framing with a four foot stagger!Period!
"By HAMMER AND HAND ALL THINGS DO STAND"
"Second thing, I am one of those guys who likes to stagger seems, and I admit I get alot of ribbing for that, saying it's completely unnecessary."Who likes to stagger sheathing.Your supposed too. Who doesn't stagger the sheathing???? Who says it's unnecessary?The guys who say this, are they sheathing walls with joints on top of joints?Also do they say it's unnecessary to stagger the joints on the decking?Joe Carola
How about 2 ft by 40 ft ply or osb? That would solve all the problems. Of course you would need a couple of 20 yr olds to do it.
Second thing, I am one of those guys who likes to stagger seems, and I admit I get alot of ribbing for that, saying it's completely unnecessary.
Who "says" its not necassary?
Common sense alone dictates a weaker job if joints aren't staggered.
I don't care who's told you it's "not necessary".
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I'll tell you it's not necessary!
How strong do we need it? Do we really need it run horizontally, blocked, staggerer and nailed off every 2" oc?
Around these parts, we are allowed to substitute foam sheathing, which has absolutely zero structural strength. To "windbrace" the wall, we would have to put in one sheet of osb on the corners or let in "t braces".
I'm no structural engineer, but I think it's safe to say that a wall that is sheathed solid with horizontal osb, no blocking and joints lined up is far superior, structurally speaking to t he above mentioned foam wall system.
I have an aversion to adding uselss blocking. It tends to act as a thermal bridge and I wouldn't allow any to be installed on any house that a framer framed for me, even if he supplied the blocking free. It's simply a waste of good wood if the house isn't in a seismic zone.
And lets not start the debate about the blocking being free. It isn't. I'm as thrifty as they come to using up "scrap" blocks and their isn't anything laying around longer than 14" that can be used "free" to block in between studs. When you add blocks around the perimeter of the house, you'll be using another 140' of precious linial, any way you want to look at it.
Anyways, osb is stronger if layed across the studs. If you don't believe me, lay two different 16" square pieces across a couple of studs. Cut on in the horizontal direction and one in the vertical manner. Put your full weight on each of them and see which one collapses. If your fat like me, you'll hit the deck on only one of them.
blue
I won't argue with you as far as "what's strong enough"....but as far as which is stronger (the only point I was making)...staggered seams are superior.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
If the sheets are run horizontally on a wall, staggering the seams makes sense. If the sheets are run vertical on an 8' wall, staggering the seams means cutting every second sheet and introducing an otherwise unnecessary seam. That's WEAKER than leaving the sheets alone and nailing them around their entire perimeter, so staggering seams in that case makes no sense. If you lap over the rim/band joist and sill plate and you need a seam anyway, in which case staggering the seams makes sense. Staggering seams on floors and roofs always makes sense.
Did any of that make sense?!
Ditto Blue's comment: if the design states that structural panels in the corners are adequate, sheathing the entire wall with structural panels is overkill regardless how you lay the sheets and whether or not you use blocking- but that doesn't mean that sheathing the entire wall is wasted materials and effort. Personally I wouldn't want a wall with only "exterior drywall",or worse yet foam,(plus siding or EIFS) between me and the outside world.
Unless continuous sheathing is structurally necessary for seismic concerns etc, blocking is just wasted wood and effort from a structural standpoint. It does ensure that your seams lay and stay flat though! And that may be pretty important to you later.
Pretty hard to stagger joints if installed verticially. NO?
Pretty hard to stagger joints if installed verticially. NO?
Yes it is.....which is why I install horizontally.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
You don't need to stagger when sheathing is hung vertically. At least that is one of the misconceptions addressed by Thor
I wouldn't imagine you would. But I don't install plywood vertically.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
> You don't need to stagger when sheathing is hung vertically. At least that is one of the misconceptions addressed by Thor
Very interesting. I'll probably do it anyhow, if it doesn't hurt. Everything I see driving around town is vertical and staggered, so that's what the inspectors are accustomed to seeing.
-- J.S.
> Pretty hard to stagger joints if installed verticially. NO?
It depends on the size and shape of the house. Mine works out pretty easy. Three full 4x8's, then a half, two full and another half, then three full, etc, over and over. The house is two story, 9 ft. ceilings, with a crawl space and parapet wall around the flat roof. Staggering helps to tie things together across the decks.
-- J.S.
It looks like worm vs sidewinder again: the West does it vertical, the East horizontal.
Here in LA, it's vertical and staggered like a bricklayer's running bond -- say three full sheets alternating with a half sheet, two full, and another half on top. Blocking under all the seams, too.
LADBS did some destructive tests on the nailing schedule, and found that 2" on the edges and 4" in the field is actually stronger than 3"/6". They also tried 3x4's instead of 2x4's for studs and blocking under the seams, found that was better, too. I haven't heard of anybody actually using -- or even having -- 3x4's. I wish they would have tried some adhesives, but they didn't.
-- J.S.
First union job I ever worked on was a three story retirement home in Puyallup. We used 3x4 studs on the ground floor on that baby.TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
The house I'm framing right now has 3x4's specced out for the first floor of three. I was really looking forward it because I had never even seen a 3x4. Still haven't. We had to double up the 2x4's on the first floor instead.
"Ah... that's an extra".View Image
Well, I only posted that because John said he never neard anyone say they had used 3x4s. I will admit it's been a (clears throat) "few" years. In fact, I'll put it in perspective - it was also the first job I ever used a nail gun, and I had been framing in the local housing tracts for a year or so by then. We had heard of guns, but none of us believed they could actually be faster than a good framer. TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Does anybody nail & glue the sheathing on? Does it double the labor cost of sheathing or just add 20%? Does it add any real strength to the structure or is it just a waste of time and money?If I was going to overdesign the structure for my area - no seismic loads but some occasional real winds - I would fully sheath the outside walls with full length plywood or OSB vertical from the sill to the top plate, use 3x4 studs for the seams between sheets of sheathing, PL premium glue every place the sheathing hits the structure and nail per code.I realize that I am an overly obsessive engineer, but I have fun at it.
"Does anybody nail & glue the sheathing on?"Not me. Can't imagine why you would glue sheathing. I think it was mentioned here once before. It's like I've never heard of a 3x4 stud either until someone mentioned it on the JLC forum. Or I've never heard of blocking the edges of horizontal sheathing either. Now I'm reading guys sheathing horizontal and not staggering. That's a good one also.Joe Carola
I asked our engineer about that because there is a JLC article where the GC is a design/build and has an inhouse engineer. They were constructing very small portal walls on the garages and the engineer sped'd glue and they have the quality control to ensure the right type of glue and bead size. Someone wrote in about that and the author had to defend himself.
Our engineer said it isn't worth the hassle because in most cases on the site, the guys won't do it. I would do it for portal walls instead of messing with Strong Walls if the engineer spec'd it.
Acutally Paul, glue would make the walls a whole lot stronger.
I think I've got something stronger though.
Why not just pour 36" solid concrete with rebar running every 4" both ways. That should hold for a few years.
At some point everything is overkill and everything is weaker than something else. We aren't building walls that need to withstand Superman taking a run at them. There are times for all the extra details and times when they are overkill. Everyone has to learn what's appropriate and make their own judgments.
I've never glued a wall sheathing but I've built a few walls with 3 x4's (acutually just doubled up the studs). When I was a rookie, my boss made us block all the horizontal seams....and we were using mineral fiber board (Celotex). He thought his methods were necessary but I'd throw him off my job today for wasting lumber. Even if he supplied the lumber, I'd toss him off for wasting time. It just doesn't add anything to the job, but it does create thermal bridging and waste energy.
Your glue is wasteful too, so I wouldn't want you doing a job for me, especially if I was supplying the glue. If you would waste the glue, you'd surely be wasting a lot more lumber every step of the way.
Of course, all those items might be critical in an earthquake zone...I don't know, I've never had to deal with anything like that.
Before anyone worries too much, please not that nothing that I've framed has fallen over yet. I'm sure the frame will outlast the other components in the house.
blue
Blue,
" The building code is written with the expectation that your house will survive and earthquake that has a 1 in 10 chance of occurring in 50 years. The premise is that this big earthquake will be so devastating that your house could collapse and injure or kill you if it was not built to code. The same liklihood of a major windstorm is used to establish what wind forces to use in design." page 2 Wood Framed Shearwalls by Thor Matteson
"Myth#2 Sheathing all the exterior walls will provide enough strength
-simply sheathing the outside walls of today's custom homes usually will not provide nearly the strength needed. This is not because earthquakes or hurricanes have become more powerfull or plywood has become weaker, but rather because of the changes in architectural design from homes built 50 years ago." page 2 Wood Framed Shearwalls by Thor Matteson
I post that because one factor you and guys like you and me don't take into account is the design of homes today. Today you have a lot of 2 storywalls full of windows, windows are more plentiful and they are larger. Homes are more "open" now. It is dangerous to think that because we construct homes, that we can even begin to understand the forces that act on a wall that require either shearwalls or resistance to racking. No amount of framing experience will prepare a framer to understand these forces.
Having said that, if you area doesn't require houses to be fully sheathed, then you are correct, sheathing it all is probably overkill. My question is, why sheathe horizontally? What is the labor advantange? I don't know if you do this, if you don't then that question is really for the guys who do. I don't see any downside to hanging sheathing vertically. Its stronger than an unblocked wall, is easy to do, why not?
By the way, have you ever seen the video here http://strongtie.com/strongwall/testing.html#what
tim... in OZ, where Cadioli builds, they don't use the sheathing for ties... they run thru bolts about every 4' from the foundation to the top of the plate.. then they tie hte rafters to the plate..
mostly every builder there drills and epoxies the thru-bolts..
if i had to do shear corner / tie-down again.. that's the method i'd use..
3 miles south of us, they are in wind zone 120 mph.. they have to do shear panels , impact tested windows, full blocking on the roof, etc.Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"I post that because one factor you and guys like you and me don't take into account is the design of homes today. Today you have a lot of 2 storywalls full of windows, windows are more plentiful and they are larger. Homes are more "open" now. It is dangerous to think that because we construct homes, that we can even begin to understand the forces that act on a wall that require either shearwalls or resistance to racking. No amount of framing experience will prepare a framer to understand these forces."Tim, we do take into account the open floor system and excess window areas. Often, we make framing decisions that reflect our concern for these special circumstances. If a major earthquake ever hits MI, everything and anything will be flattened. I mean EVERYTHING including whatever I'm going to build here in the next 20 years. I'm certainly not going to become the guy running around here worrying about earthquakes! I do worry about freezing to death though!And lastly, since no amount of framing experience will prepare me to understand the forces, I can just quit thinking about it. For me, no glue, blocking or worrying about staggering the sheathing unless special circumstances dictate it. For instance, on the last house we framed, I didn't allow any sheathing to be layed vertical on the walls. The siding was going to be eifs and I didn't want the flex that occurs when the sheathing is layed vertically.blue
"My question is, why sheathe horizontally? What is the labor advantange? I don't know if you do this, if you don't then that question is really for the guys who do. I don't see any downside to hanging sheathing vertically. Its stronger than an unblocked wall, is easy to do, why not?"Tim, it's significantly faster to sheath horizontally on most walls. There is normally less waste too. Finding the studs to fasten to is significantly faster and there is less chance of shiners. On the last house we did, I was table framing all the walls and I was constantly running out of "scrap" pieces to use to sheath the walls. It would not be uncommon for me to have to cut a 6" piece out of a new 8' sheet of osb. I normally keep all my "scrap" either on top of my workstation, or under it. I keep all the 4' cutoffs ranging in size of 3/4" and above. After I get an accumulation of enough 2 and 3" cutoffs, I start burning some of them. I'm not opposed to using 4-3" cutoffs to fill in a solid header though.ONe huge time savings is cutting the window out when laying the sheathing horizontally. Quite often, the sheet will lay into the window and give me a visual to cut it on both axii. I prefer that because I then can very quickly and accurately make the window cut without layout lines or measuring. I cut each window out as I go. I abhor searching for windows in sheets that have completely covered up and opening. It's a huge timewaster. Quite often, the drops from the horizontal window cutoff from the bottom layer will fit perfectly onto the header to fill in the top sheathing. As a result of this ultra efficient material usage, I often end up with a substantial amount of extra osb because they send enough out to cover all windows and doors and I rarely have any of that wasteage.Keep in mind that efficiency in material usage means savings in material handling x 2. You save by not handling the new stock, then save by not having to handle the waste stock. When your handling 10,000 parts on a house, saving a few seconds on each is critical.blue
I build alot of houses here my small section of the world each year and 80% of my walls are sheated with 7/16 OSB and Tyveked before they are stood up, sheets are always run vertical. The back of my sheets of OSB say "strength axis" with two arrows one pointing at one of the 4' sides and the other arrow is pointing at the opposite 4' side so thats the way I run it maybe wrong to some. Maybe they mean something else by "strength axis" because I have been known to screw up once in a while.
Stilletto, which way do you run your roof sheathing?
If you ran it vertically, you'd noticebly feel the difference. Evertime you stood in between a framing member, the osb would sag considerably.
Our osb has the strength axis marked on it too but without a legend, I really don't know what it means. I can make a good guess....
blue
I run roof sheathing perpindicular to the trusses 24"OC or what is specified for spacing with H-clips
Blue,
I just reread my post and not sure but want to clarify that I'm not talking down to you. You've probably been doing this longer than I've been alive, I don't talk down to anyone and don't plan on starting now so no offense.
I understand where you are coming from on the scrap issue, its a good point you are located in my general region and OSB walls and roofs is kind of "standard here" I look at it this way it was "scrap" before they put glue in it and press it together really this is the last step for this stuff. I use my window-door cutouts for headers 2x12's sometimes 3-ply for 2x6 walls, 2-ply 2x12's for all interior headers so scrap is utilized wherever possible.
Sorry if there was any misunderstanding. No offense intended
Stilleto, I took no offense nor did I see anything wrong with your post. I was simply pointing out that we lay plywood a certain way on roof members because it's stronger layed that way.That same thought would apply to walls except in shear walls which have a different criteria.
blue
I guess I still don't see how it's faster for the guys who don't table frame. I'm not being argumentative (I hope). Here is what we do:
Check the wall for square
Snap a line on the topplates (unless we hold the sheathing up)
1 guy packs sheets (lining up on the snapped line and the layout marks
1 guy tacks them and routers the window opening
1 who packed, nails off
That wall has the same sq footage either way right? So if I use 4x9 sheets hung vertically on an 8' wall, I cover or split the rim and no one has to use strips. I'll handle less peices total by hanging the sheathing vertically. All someone has to do is nail if off on the rim. Our 9' sheathing has lines on it for nailing so that isn't an issue.
For example. http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/94696175.jpg The wall on the left that Jasen (in orange) is nailing off is a 9' wall (roughly) by using 10' sheets vertically, there will be no need for a 1' rip. If we used 8' horizontally, then we'd either have to put a strip on the rim or block the bays and put the strip on the top. Either way (even excluding the blocking) we'd have handled more material and had to cut strips. How is that faster?
Again, I hope I didn't come across dogmatic. If you can convince me, then I've got one more trick to use :-) even if I steal it from you hehe
Tim, table framing doesn't change the facts.
Look at your picture again. You asked "That wall has the same sq footage either way right?". My answer to you is yes, and no.
Yes, the exact same footage of wall surface has to be covered. No, the same volume of materials aren't used.
Why? because you have two very large chunks of sheathing lying there, waiting to be handled again into the scrap bin. Since you've staunchly committed yourself to vertical applications, those pieces will never have a home....because they aren't 10's.
You appear to have layed four sheets and a small rip. I thin you had to rip a small section off the sheet that is lying on top of the pile. If that is the case, you've tapped into five sheets. I'll concede that you'll make good use of that fifth sheet that appears to be over 40" wide.
So, how would I do it. Even if I was platform framing as you are, I'd still run the sheets horizontally. I would typically be working alone. I'd lay an 8' sheet (we would only have 8' sheets available) horizontally, twice on the bottom. If I had to hang it over as you are (we typically dont have to tie in the rims), i'd probably have a very nice rip coming out of the window. It would be the header filler. So, my first course would use two sheets.
My second course is where I make up some time and material. That course looks like it would use a full 8' sheet with about one stud bay (more) to finish it off. That would leave a drop of 80" on my second sheet.. It appears I'd need 24" or so for the area that your man is standing on. 80 minus 24 leaves a 56" drop x a full 48" wide.
That 56" cpould be ripped in half and the two pieces will easily cover the top left hand side of the third course. Even with a lucky stud layout, it would appear that I'd be left one piece short to finish the third course.
This is where I separate from the pack. Instead of using that piece, which won't effectively finish the third course, I'd probably opt to save the 56" drop and rip a full sheet in half. I'll be using that 56" drop on the first course of the next wall. Remember, the top of the header is done, so I only need about 124" of the ripped sheets. Since I'm starting with (96 +96) 192", I'd also have a nice 68" drop, which will be the first piece on the next wall on the third course.
Lets add them up. I used up two on the first course, then two on the second course. I then used one on the third course. So, we each cut into five sheets. The difference is that I've positioned myself to be able to effectively use every bit of the two drops I've created. You, on the other hand, will be creating a huge stack of drops every time you sheath a wall with very few places that they will be used.
Now....before you start crowing too loud, understand that I've only used 8' tall sheets, you've used 10's. If I had tens, I'd be even more efficient!
Basically, you can go around and measure the square footage of all the openings and that will be the materials that I will save and you will use. On a house of the size you're doing, that will amount to about ten to twelve sheets. If you do a house every three weeks, that will be about four sheets per week. If you work 50 weeks a year, you will have burned 200 sheets. After working 35 years, you will have 7000 sheets more than I would. If you equate that 7000 sheets into houses built, I would probably be able to frame 20 houses more than you. 20 houses x $20,000 would be 400k plus the compound interest.
After reveiwing the numbers, I'd say you're tossing away your retirment.
Now lets delve into stud saving and plate strectching.
blue
Blue,
Basically, you can go around and measure the square footage of all the openings and that will be the materials that I will save and you will use. On a house of the size you're doing, that will amount to about ten to twelve sheets. If you do a house every three weeks, that will be about four sheets per week. If you work 50 weeks a year, you will have burned 200 sheets. After working 35 years, you will have 7000 sheets more than I would. If you equate that 7000 sheets into houses built, I would probably be able to frame 20 houses more than you. 20 houses x $20,000 would be 400k plus the compound interest.
After reveiwing the numbers, I'd say you're tossing away your retirment.
You should write speeches for a political party. Doesn't matter which. You are quite good with making a supposition or the plural, and then basing your entire argument on that and then using conjecture (def 2b) as support. You build your argument like a house of cards and when one or two of those cards at the bottom are taken away, the house starts to fall. Maybe you should have constructed your argument with some shearwalls hehehe I'm yanking you around a little here.
Well if you saw my scrap pile at the end of that house, you may edit your last post. Alas I don't have any pics because I lost them all when my computer crashed, so you'll have to take my word for it. That house has a lot of 11' tall walls and 14' tall walls and interior shearwalls. You know whats great about 32' tall (at the tallest) shearwalls? You can use a lot of scrap. Since I use a router, the window cutouts are pretty square. Same with gables, great place to use scrap.
Fact is, you wouldn't hang shear the way you do if you lived in my seismic zone. You don't, so it doesn't apply here. But the bottom line remains, that excluding your argument about scrap, you handle peices and do more cutting than I do for that same wall.
My eyes aren't so good, but it looks like 5 sheets and a rip. That's it. The left over rip will be used on that side wall (on left) because we sheathe on the ground, we'll start the sheathing for that wall in such a way that that rip can be used to tie the walls together.
Since I like you so much, I'm going to try horizontal (even if I have to block, it'll use up some scrap and I can put that $ back into my retirement fund). I will say this though Blue and it brings a dimension to this discussion (it ain't an argument because I think you like me as much as I like you :-)) On our site, the most expensive part is the labor. We do use up the useable scrap.
When we lift a wall, we then lean the cutouts up against that wall. They are close and we can use them as we continue to frame. You might say that we are using labor to clean up those sheets, but we've to a good system going and to bottleneck our framing process to save 1 sheet a house, just isn't worth it. I can use scrap that is right there and cut by eye the 2 blocks necessary for the panel edges. As a crew we gang up on outside wall framing and it goes up real fast. I'll chart the progress of the next decent size house we do, to support that claim. To make one part of that process slower, could mean the whole process is slower and that is just way too expensive.
If I might make a suggestion to you Blue, there are certain things on the jobsite that we just know and can't really put it into words. You are right about a lot of things, but to be able to put them into words in a way that helps the rest of us reading understand, might be impossible. Not just for you or me, but everyone. Sometimes, the discussion can't go farther because we are sitting here at the computer trying to imagine what the other guy is saying. Problem is we imagine that through the prism of our own experience, understanding and situation. That's why a lot of these discussions go round and round. I only debate this with you, because that is how I've learned some really great techniques in the past. When I'm forced to defend myself, I have to really critically think about what I'm doing. It's then that I see where to change it.
I'm just glad you are willing to take the time to do this. There are a lot of guys reading probably who think, Blue is right and then think Tim is right and then think, I'll just blend parts of both and then I'm better than both those guys :-)
I am still waiting for your answer on feet of ext. wall from deck to ready for trusses. I am a patient man. Hope to hear.
I totally forgot about that. I'll try and keep real close numbers on the next frame. We are building a small house for one of our trim guys.
Does your number include sheathing? Or siding? This house will get fir reverse board and batten so we will hang windows and side while the wall is on the deck. Shoot me an email with some specifics and I'll try and figure out what we are doing.
Tim, your entire post was sounding fine, until you mentioned that I was only going to save one sheet. That's just not factual.
I think you probably fail to realize that I was taught to lay every sheet verticalas a rookie, and I probably layed 17 years worth of vertical sheathing before I ever layed a sheet horizontal. In those 17 years, I developed systems for efficient material usage and systems for fast installation because that is how I am programmed to do things. That is the essence of my being.
With that background in mind, you can rest assured that I would bet every one of my milkbones that I would save substantially more than one sheet per job. I don't care how tall your walls are, when you chop huge rips out of every window and leave yourself 5' x 2 rips, you aren't going to find that many places to fit them, if you insist on laying every sheet vertical. And that takes into account the work that will be done on the gables.
Quite frankly, I wouldn't want a gable sheathed with 15 pieces of 2' x 5' pieces! The gables are usually one area that I give careful consideration to staggering joints because often the vertical struts are on the flat and quite flimsy. A nice long horizontal sheathing will add considerable stiffness to most gable stock without having to resort to additional internal bracing. And, in most cases, the "drop" from the horizontal gable will flip over and fit somewhat perfectly, so the waste on most gable sheathing is virtually nill for me.
Lastly, if I had to install blocking to lay the sheets horizontally, I would probably lay 90% or more of the sheets vertically and just toss the scrap ply out. Labor is far too expesive to spent cutting blocking and getting that stuff installed so it looks decent. If you have to block, it changes the equation in a significant manner.
And lastly again, I think you failed to fully comprehend the discussion regarding handling "extra" pieces on that wall you framed/sheathed. If you truly want to understand it, you'll have to revisit the story of the tortoise and the hare.
blue
Edited 2/2/2006 12:23 am ET by blueeyeddevil
Tim, your entire post was sounding fine, until you mentioned that I was only going to save one sheet. That's just not factual.
Blue,
That one sheet comment was hyperbole on my part. Had I been able to "write" my facial expression and voice, that would have come across, but I'm still learning how to "emote" with the written word. Sorry about that.
About the gables, don't forget that we stick frame everything. Studs NEVER go on the flat for us.
And lastly again, I think you failed to fully comprehend the discussion regarding handling "extra" pieces on that wall you framed/sheathed. If you truly want to understand it, you'll have to revisit the story of the tortoise and the hare.
No I didn't fail to comprehend anything. Your argument came down to efficiently using scrap. My argument was that you could get all the benefits of a fully sheathed wall with all panel edges nailed, without spending any extra time. I stand by that, because it's true.
Except for this statement My second course is where I make up some time and material. I couldn't find any real comment about speed.
About the turtle and hare, I don't remember any mention of scrap.
Tim, I'm not backtracking from my gable comment even if you frame everything on edge. I've never seen a gable sheathed with all the various random pieces of drops that are created from window cutouts and I highly doubt that you'd do an entire gable like that either. It would be hideous looking and any decent carpenter would be too embarrased to do so. You might be able to use a couple here and there, but the bulk of the gables would be done with full sheets. Then, the drops cut from the angles fill in all the small pieces that the window drops would fill. Either way, you will end up with drops leftover.
Don't make me come over there....I've sheathed 2000 gables!
Next topic:
No I didn't fail to comprehend anything. Your argument came down to efficiently using scrap. My argument was that you could get all the benefits of a fully sheathed wall with all panel edges nailed, without spending any extra time. I stand by that, because it's true.
You did fail to comprhend becuase you're trying to restructure the main point to be "efficiently using scrap" and that isn't my main point! My main point is to NOT CREATE THE SCRAP IN THE FIRST PLACE!
I intentionally didn't elaborate on where I was saving the time and material because I figured the brightest stars, such as yourself would be able to figure it out, if you thought hard enough about it, but I'll cut you some slack and explain. The time savings occurs because the area that spans the window is never covered over. Essentially, I don't ever handle that extra four feet. In your particular case, the second course would have probably been covered by a left over piece from the first wall that I see standing. Rememer, your second course needed a full sheet, then a very small piece...maybe ten to 14".
I know it seems trivial and the tendency is to attempt to ignore the significance, but it acually adds up when you consider that every wall has a few doors and windows. Most normal houses have upwards of twenty openings that range in width from 3' to 6' and if you use a 4' average times 15 sheets, you'd find that you have NOT handled at least 60' of plywood.
The point you are missing about the story of the toroise and hare can be explained this way: when I created the drops that will be carried to the next wall, you should notice that they are perfectly dimensionsed pieces that will most efficiently be the starters (first course) and caps ( third course). The subtle trick that most might miss would be to continously create the full sized 24" rips that will finish the top course, instead of constantly ripping the odd sized drops. Using the full sized (96") rips proves to be faster because they will always fall on a stud without secondary cutting. In that particular examply, most rookies would have split that 56" drop in half in an effort to be thrifty, but that results in having to make an extra cut when they are layed on the wall. That one extra cut doesn't seem like much, but if you realisticly time it, you will find that it would double the time spent laying the third course. I think we all know that doubling the time for anything is not what we are trying to achieve.
Please don't think I'm bothered by this constant back and forth discussion. For some, this all seems so trivial and boring but for me, well, I've tweaked every process I do till I cant squeeze anything else out. One thing I haven't tried is routing the windows but I really don't know how effective that would be. I've routed a lot of things and I've never known anything to cut faster than a power saw. Getting the perfect cut isn't an issue because it's a rough opening and I fully understand the implications of that. It doesn't have to be perfect. It's rough work...not trim work.
blue
Blue,
I'm not restructuring any argument. My point has been and will remain: it is faster to sheathe hanging the sheets vertically AND you get all the benefits of the panel edges being blocked. That was and is my point. You mentioned scrap to begin with not me.
I'm not moving on to the next topic because I simply don't have the time or the desire. I didn't read past the first part of your statement. I hope you don't mind.
As far as your point about the gable, you are preaching to the choir. I am an employee however, and if my boss wants me to use the scrap on the gable I will do it. And then I will try and cover it with Tyvek so no one sees it :-) Incidentally, that same point could be argued in favor of hanging the sheathing vertically. You'd have a nicer looking wall, and it went up faster and its stronger. Sounds like a win-win to me.
I love you man. Keep preaching.
it is faster to sheathe hanging the sheets vertically
I'll quote you: "there are some things you just dont know...". Having extensive experience in both methods, I respectfully agree to disagree if blocking is not a required.
blue
So long as no one fully agrees to this point...thought I'd throw in another question.
Drove past a two story addition today. Walls and roof framing (all stick) are complete, but nothing is sheathed. Sheathing prior to standing walls is my prefered method, but even if that wasn't possible, I can't imagine ever framing the roof before the walls were sheathed.
What say you?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I wouldn't want to get on the roof without the walls being sheathed, but if you sub your sheathing out, it may not be a bad way to go.
On this house http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9094915/126297529.jpg We framed the upstairs outside walls, then 2 guys cut the roof, while Matt and I framed the interior walls. We framed the upstairs walls, cut & stacked the roof, and sheathed the roof in 2 1/2 days. Closer to 3. We've had so much rain and we got a a few days without week before last, that we just went beserk :-)
For us, it wouldn't save a whole lot of time not to just sheathe as we go. Since we've got machines, it makes sheathing the roof a quick job (2 guys 1 day for that hip roof 8-12)
Because we stick frame, and often vault the majority of the upstairs, we use beams for hips/valleys and ridges. Moving them in place with the forklift can "touch" the walls a bit. I'd rather have them sheathed.
"I wouldn't want to get on the roof without the walls being sheathed, but if you sub your sheathing out, it may not be a bad way to go."Tim,Why would you not get on the roof without the walls sheathed also?The house does not move anywhere at all with the braces on.What difference does it make whether you sub the sheathing out or not? Even if you subbed the sheathing out you would still have to frame the rafters without the sheathing on the walls and walk around to nail all the rafters. Or are you just talking about sheathing the roof first without the sheathing on the walls? I know you frame the rafters 24" centers. Do you also frame the ceiling joist 24" centers?Do you sheath the roofs with 1/2" and use H-clips?Joe Carola
Edited 2/3/2006 5:02 pm ET by Framer
Joe,
Because we use the forklift and boom so much material up to the roof at a time, I'd rather have the wall sheathed in case someone bumps the wall. When you have 2000lbs on that forklift, it doesn't take more than a nudge to really through things out if they aren't braced well, and unless we want to nail bracing to its nearly permanent . . . .
I made that comment about subbing the sheathing out because I knew thats what you did and the posters comment about the house being framed and the roof framed without sheathing made me think that might have been an option. I prefer to sheathe as we go. As I've said many many times, we have shear inspection and its is much easier and faster to do a good job nailing off the sheathing while the walls are on the deck. For the houses we frame, it typically takes maybe 1-2 hours more, if that to sheathe on the deck as opposed to not sheathing them when they are on the deck. I know that even with forklifts, it would take us longer than 1-2 hours to sheathe the upper floor and nail it off.
We sheathe our walls before the roof goes on. As you can see in this pic http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9094915/126297538.jpg the rafter drops down and tucks up to the sheathing.
We frame roofs (including ceiling joists) 24" oc using 7/16" OSB and 1/2" H-clips. We are thinking about switching to 5/8" OSB and NO H-clips, but that would add about $5 a sheet. I believe that you knew we sheathe that way. Are you trying to get me to admit that I'm a hack? :-)
OK I'LL SAY IT I'M FROM HACK-ISTAN!!!
Kidding aside, I'll take pics Monday. I was going to today, but we got in a hurry putting up Tyvek and then it started to rain on us and I wanted to get to the gym. I'll get some pics right up at the eaves to show how flat the roof is and that 7/16" sheathing rafters 24"oc is not a hack thing to do. If you want me to, I can go to houses we framed 10 or more years ago this way and take pics of those too.
Around here, no one uses 5/8" sheathing. When I asked the local lumberyards, they told me that. I have to special order it in if we use it. All roofs here are framed or trussed 24" oc and yes it does look bad on some of the larger trussed commercial buildings, but in residential, it's rare to see the framing telegraph. Typically that is on that old crappy 3 tab, not the nicer thick comps.
So in the words of one of the highest rates hosts "what say you?"
I don't think framing the roof before the walls are sheathed is a poor practice, but I sure as heck wouldn't sheath roof before sheathing the walls.
Saw the roof for an indoor horse riding arena, we're talking a big roof here, sitting on the ground in sections because the contractor decided to have the roof sheathed and shingled before the walls were sheathed.
This was in the days before tie downs and shear walls were prevelant, but I don't think it would be any better an idea today.
Hey Tim - "sub out sheathing"? Do you guys do that? Is that a common practice hereabouts nowdays?
TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Edited 2/3/2006 9:48 am ET by jimblodgett
"I don't think framing the roof before the walls are sheathed is a poor practice, but I sure as heck wouldn't sheath roof before sheathing the walls."Jim,I don't think JDRHI said that it was poor practice not sheath the walls. He just never did it and he seemed concerned about the walls moving.If anyone says that it's poor practice to frame the roof before the walls are sheathed is dead wrong and has no idea what the hell they're talking about at all.This could be another topic where guys just do it one way and have no idea what they're talking about because they've never done it any other way before.We have sheathing crews that sheath our houses and additions or we can sheath them ourselves. It doesn't matter the whole house gets framed and then it gets sheathed around here.Joe Carola
"I don't think JDRHI said that it was poor practice not sheath the walls. He just never did it and he seemed concerned about the walls moving."
Yeah, I didn't mean to say he was saying it was a bad practice, Joe. Maybe my speech patterns don't come across well online.
But it did seem like he was questioning that practice, or he never would have asked, would he? So I was just saying that there's nothing necessarilly wrong with it, as long as you sheath the walls before the roof.TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
"Sheathing prior to standing walls is my prefered method, but even if that wasn't possible, I can't imagine ever framing the roof before the walls were sheathed.""What say you?"Why can't you imagine ever framing a roof before the walls are sheathed?I frame houses and additions every day without sheathing anything. The BRACES hold the whole house together. The house does not move anywhere.Joe Carola
While the braces may keep the walls from blowing out altogether, unless you're bracing virtually every stud, my concern would be portions of the wall being pushed out.
It's not common practice around here....this is actually the first I ever recall seeing completely framed prior to sheathing....and I'm not saying its wrong....it just doesn't seem wise.
Course...I've never heard of a sheathing crew outside of the framing crew. Sheathing is a critical part of framing. I certainly wouldn't trust another to come in and sheathe after I've framed. But....like I said....my preference is to sheathe the walls before standing them.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"It's not common practice around here....this is actually the first I ever recall seeing completely framed prior to sheathing....and I'm not saying its wrong....it just doesn't seem wise."We nail 5/4 x 3 bracing on the walls diagonally so they don't move side by side and we nail 2x4's every 6' or so so the walls don't push out. The floor joists and decking help also.I even do this on walls with cathedral ceilings but I add more 2x4 braces and then I throw another brace from the shoe to the center of the 2x4.Trust me it is wise or it wouldn't be done that way."Course...I've never heard of a sheathing crew outside of the framing crew. Sheathing is a critical part of framing. I certainly wouldn't trust another to come in and sheathe after I've framed. But....like I said....my preference is to sheathe the walls before standing them."These guys sheath every day. That's all they do. They do the job neet and right. So I have no need to worry at all. I would trust them over anyone because that's what they do and nothing esle.Joe Carola
Edited 2/3/2006 5:24 pm ET by Framer
Joe,
I'm curious, what do the sheathing crews use to cut out the RO's? I'm guessing it's done from the inside afterwards? Chainsaw? Sawzall? Do they just sheath right over all openings? I'm guessing they wouldn't precut the sheets on the ground for RO's as it's too time consuming and those guys must make their money on speed alone, right?
Or do you guys have to go back and cut out RO's after they're done? Also, I may have missed this earlier in the thread, but does your sheathing crew hang the sheets horizontally or vertically? I'm just curious.
Mind if I ask how and what they charge to sheath? Is it a sqft thing? By the sheet?
Sometimes I think I'd love to sub out the sheathing, but it's just not done around here. Can't imagine bringing a sheathing crew in from New Jersey would be too cost effective for me. {G}View Image
"I'm guessing they wouldn't precut the sheets on the ground for RO's as it's too time consuming and those guys must make their money on speed alone, right?"They cut the windows out on the ground. It's not time consuming at all. You would have to see how fast these guys go to believe it. "Also, I may have missed this earlier in the thread, but does your sheathing crew hang the sheets horizontally or vertically? I'm just curious."We run everything horizontally. No blocking like I keep reading about. I have run osb vertically with no blocking but never fir."Mind if I ask how and what they charge to sheath? Is it a sqft thing? By the sheet?"They charge $5.00 per sheat. They will sheath a 4000 s/f house in 3-4 hours. I can't do that with my guys in a million years.These guys run up a ladder with two sheets of 5/8" balancing on one hand. I thought I was the strongest goon around until I seen these guys.The first time I saw a sheathing crew was 22 years ago. The company was called Maicon. The guy showed up with about 16 people and they scattered out of the vans setting up piles at all sides of the house and within 2 minutes they're nailing the sheathing on the walls and the other guys are running up the ladders and nailing the sheathing on the roof. They look like ants crawling around.Joe Carola
Wow. I have no doubt that they're fast. I'd love to see that some time. 4 hours to sheath a house? I couldn't touch that. I've also never paid any attention to how many sheets go into a house because we don't buy the lumber so I'm not sure what $5 a sheet comes out to.
I know that we frame houses that are usually around 3500 sqft. Sometimes little 2500 sq fters and sometimes 5000 sq fters. My roofs (which I sub out) average about $2000. Anyway you could throw a ball park number at me regarding what a 4000 sqft house would cost to have sheathed? I'm just curious if I would save or lose money by subbing out the sheathing.
I know the equation changes because by not sheathing we move on to the next job quicker and make more money doing what we do best, framing. But I'm still curious about how it would work out if that service were available to me.View Image
I'm taking video of using the router next time we do it. I'm tired of people who've never tried it blabbing away. Not you. When my editor visited us 2 years ago, 3 this summer, he was there while we framed taking pics of stuff and we were just framing away. One of us used the router to cut out the window openings and he said he had followed a discussion on the forum and now that he'd seen it in person, it was hands down the fastest. He was a finish carp for 20 years before working for the magazine. It is also perfectly clean.
Although the chainsaw is pretty stinkin' cool. :-) I'm working out so I can hold my MS361 http://stihlusa.com/chainsaws/MS361.html by the handle straight out :-) I can almost do it and hold it hehehe Online Mexican Pharmacy's hehehehehehehehe
We use a router too Tim and I agree it's the fastest thing going. Except maybe Blue.... he eyeballs all the cuts with his circ saw. Now that's fast. But I couldn't find any crusty old framers at the tool store so I had to settle for a router.
I'm just kidding Blue. You know we love ya.
What are using for a router BTW? I like the 2 1/4 HP Bosch D handle myself. We burnt that one up twice being stupid. (Trying to cut stair well openings in 3/4 Advantech.....twice). And while the Bosch was down we used my 1 3/4 HP Milwaukee body-grip.... I was really surprised to see that it worked as well as the larger Bosch. Thought for sure it would bog down. BTW, Bosch waranteed the router and repaired it for free both times...... with a stern warning. {G}
My heart skips a beat everytime I hear one of my gorillas hit a nail with the router. I hear a mini "ca-ching!" everytime it happens. "Ca-ching" is the sound of a twenty dollar router bit pretending to be a suppository. :(View Image
Brian,
We've had a Bosch 3 1/4" HP router for about 3 years now, or close to it. I know what you meant about the bits hitting nails, but we've gotten pretty good about not doing that. Recently switched over to a bit that doesn't need a pilot bearing either.
We've never used a bit with a bearing for sheathing. Figured they'd gum up too fast.
Here's the bit we use. It's a single or double flute, flush cutting, panel pilot bit.
View Image
I get them here sometimes, if you're interested:
http://routerbitworld.com/product_info.php/cPath/1236_1237_1261_1262/products_id/23911View Image
i paid $12.95 for that bit ( Amana ) at Quaker LaneMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The one I linked to was a Freud, but it probably doesn't matter what kind I buy considering the life they lead. Do you think they can be sharpened? Probably not I'm guessing as they usually have chunks of carbide missing by the time I take them out of the router.
That Freud bit I linked to used to be about $12 up until a few months ago. I think they were $12.99 last time I ordered some. It seems they're now over $15. Maybe it's time to check out the Amana bits. They're good, you think?View Image
It sounds like it could be pretty close to a wash. If you sheath as you go, you save putting on and taking off temporary braces. If you have a separate sheathing crew, they're more specialized and efficient. I don't know enough different contractors' methods to say if there's a regional preference here.
-- J.S.
Blue, you misquoted me. That paragraph was as follows, cut and pasted from post $86(highlighting done in this post, not original):
If I might make a suggestion to you Blue, there are certain things on the jobsite that we just know and can't really put it into words. You are right about a lot of things, but to be able to put them into words in a way that helps the rest of us reading understand, might be impossible. Not just for you or me, but everyone. Sometimes, the discussion can't go farther because we are sitting here at the computer trying to imagine what the other guy is saying. Problem is we imagine that through the prism of our own experience, understanding and situation. That's why a lot of these discussions go round and round. I only debate this with you, because that is how I've learned some really great techniques in the past. When I'm forced to defend myself, I have to really critically think about what I'm doing. It's then that I see where to change it.
I stand by that. In fact, that was a pretty good paragraph that describes where you and I am at. I will agree to disagree.
I've said this to you all along, that I greatly respect you and hope I didn't sound dogmatic or rude. That wasn't my intention. I am going to try it your way. We are going to start siding today, and then we have a little frame to put up for one of our guys and then we'll have a decent sized house to try this on where I can do one wall horizontally (I'll block later to make it fair) and I'll have Jasen do the other identical wall vertically and we'll see. I'll give it some thought so that I don't have any scrap either.
Tim,
If I can pull you aside for a second......
We were framing today in the pouring rain. Usually we just bag it when it's raining this bad, but we already lost one day to rain w/ highwinds this week so we figured we'd go for it.
How the heck do you keep the breakers from popping in this crap? We finally just gave up at noon time when I couldn't get the GFCI's to stay pushed in at all. It was pretty discouraging because while we were soaked, it was like 50 degrees and we were cooking along just rolling with the downpours. You're a PNW guy so I figured if anyone knows framing in the rain, it'd be you.
I run off a generator a lot of the time and that doesn't seem to pop as easily as this 20A temp service does. Even made sure that we weren't using any cords with replacement ends.View Image
We have two sets of breakers for our temporary power poles, Diesel. The GFCIs for inspection, the regulars for work.
You can bypass the GFCI breaker on your generator, too. Standard technique around here.
But, um, you didn't hear it from me, okay?
TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
That's about what I figured. Need to get that electrician back out to the site. When we first got to this site I was psyched to see a couple outlets that weren't GFCI's. Then I opened the panel and saw that they were actually 20 amp breakers. Finally a temporary power pole done "right". Come to find out all the outlets were wired through the GFCI outlets so they were all protected. Bummer.
What a drag. Get up on a rainy cold morning. Find it in you to get out there and have at it. Start plugging away, get good and soaked, and after a few hours everything gets too soggy to keep the power live. Oh well. Dems da breaks. Looks like I'm working another Saturday. I've lost count of how many in a row this is. Gotta get the boys 40 in at least.View Image
Mid thirty's and raining is about as bad a weather to work in as I know. Doesn't matter what you wear, you're gonna get wet. And as soon as you stop moving you chill up. We get stretches like that every year and you just have to bite the bullet and do your best.
Sure glad I don't work in the elements all the time anymore. I drive by those sites when it's raining sideways here and always think "poor bastarrds", then give them a nod of the head. Just feeding their families the best they can, most of them.
The hardest days for me was when the foreman would come out of the trailer and say it was optional. If you want to work you could, then 2/3rds of the crew would take off. Some guys would even show up for work with the skis in their trucks, just in case. Next day they'd be skinning and grinning.
Anyways, hats of to all you folks slugging it out every day. You do us all proud. TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Brian,
It's the power of positive thinking that's all :-)
We run a 100' 8ga cord from the temp pole into the house where we have a spider box that is about 20 years gold. I don't know the specifics of it, but it compensates for the voltage drop. We run 12ga cords off that to our tools. Compressor is plugged into a different circuit at the pole and we run a 100' 1/2" hose into the house with a splitter on it.
What I've noticed is that the higher quality the 8ga cord is the less likely we have tripping going on. Also, if someone is really cutting away with the recip saw (15amp Makita) and then someone starts their saw it'll trip. We've been pretty lucky this year even with all the rain. We keep 1 or 2 of the 8ga cords in the truck and then if one trips, we replace it. Only had to do that once this winter and we've had a ton of rain. This last week and a half we've had the wobble lights hooked up on the same circuit (running 2 or 3 of them) as the compressor and running the powertools off a different circuit and it's only tripped once or twice and that was just too many tools running at once.
But, in the past we've had big problems and I don't lose my temper, but when the power trips I just want to cry I get so frustrated :-)
As for glue, I was wondering if it would help limit air infiltration if glue were used on all studs where sheathing seams fall?
Any value? Would be pretty cheap and easy.
As for glue, I was wondering if it would help limit air infiltration if glue were used on all studs where sheathing seams fall?
Air infiltration isn't an issue if you've properly installed a building wrap.
blue
Really? Tweak does not seem very tight to me. Not that I claim to know how that would work, perhaps the siding holds it so tight as to cut off air to the sheathing seams. ?????????
has anyone seen 3/4" T&G used for wall or roof sheathing?
Sounds reasonable. They are advocating gluing around the perimeter of sheet rock.
> Does anybody nail & glue the sheathing on?
Only the really weird DIY's like me. Did it on my roof, and plan to do it when I re-do the outside walls.
> Does it double the labor cost of sheathing or just add 20%?
Probably closer to 20%, but doing it as a hobby, it's just more fun.
> Does it add any real strength to the structure or is it just a waste of time and money?
It adds a huge amount of strength to the structure. Look carefully at pictures of earthquake, landslide, storm, or explosion damage. How much wood is actually *broken* (very little) and how much of the wreckage is wood coming disconnected from wood? (most of it). Glue can be stronger than the wood itself, make and break some test pieces and you'll see the wood break instead of the glue. Beyond that, there's no point in making the connection stronger.
If your potential problem is an earthquake or storm of huge and unpredictable power, the glue might be what saves the structure. Where Blue builds, the chances of that are so tiny that adding glue would be a waste. Here, where anything under 50° F is thought to be extremely cold, I worry much more about seismic loading than thermal bridging. Blue's right that for where he works, it should be the other way around.
Another consideration specific to earthquakes: Weight. The earth is going to move however far and fast it's gonna move, no matter what or how we build on it. Unlike wind pushing against the side of a stationary structure, the load imposed by an earthquake comes from accelerating and decelerating the weight of the building. Therefore, unique to earthquake country, heavy is bad. The higher the weight is in the structure, the worse it is, because the height of the structure acts as a lever arm. That's why I took the 16 psf tile off the roof and went with 16 oz. copper. With seams and cleats, it's probably about 1.2 psf.
-- J.S.
I'm in North Central Texas, so no earthquakes or hurricanes, just tornadoes. The only real answer for a big tornado is to go underground. But, maybe a house can be built for a reasonable price that will survive a near miss by a small one.
I built my own shop and I'm willing to bet that it would survive the near miss, but my methods aren't typical and not the right answer for a house. For example, the roof sheathing is two layers of 3/8" plywood at right angles, glued and screwed. There are hurricane clips all over the place, and the 4x4's in the walls go all the way from the cement piers to the top plate.
I'm in the planning process for building my own house - which will only happen with the help of a whole lot of subcontractors. I'm looking for answers that make sense, and answers that let me sleep easier when there is a storm in the area. Sometimes there is a conflict between the two, and then I start looking for the right compromise.
I'm not willing to depend on 'code' to make it right. There are too many foundations in this part of the country that meet code, and there are too many business's that do nothing but fix them after the fact.
> The only real answer for a big tornado is to go underground.
Absolutely right. The problem even with a near miss isn't so much the wind pushing on your house as it's the wind throwing pieces of other buildings at your house. In Florida, they test for this with a kind of pneumatic cannon that fires a full 2x4 stud square into the sample structure. By going underground, you basically dodge all the stuff that's in motion.
-- J.S.
John,
Over at the JLC forums is a builder from CA and he says every sheet needs to land on a 3x. They hang them vertically. I just got a paper from the APA about doubling studs instead of 3x's and if I recall correctly, when nailed together on a certain schedule, that will substitute. I keep up with this stuff because someday we are going to be just like CA. We are close now.
Have you read Thor Matteson's book? http://www.shearwalls.com/ Talk about interesting. There are a lot of opinions on this board without out any real knowledge (not you). The east coast guys who don't build to these codes and standards don't need to know, but out here man you better know this stuff to a reasonable degree to read the engineering and construct it in the field.
If you are like me, I buy books that may not be useable, but read them anyway to "broaden" my understanding. I recommend the book very highly even if you don't need to build shearwalls. Thor addresses a lot of the comments that guys make in a pretty understandable way.
Tim --
Thanks for the link on the Matteson book. I ordered a copy since I'm going to be demoing the stucco off my place and sheathing it this summer. I'm thinking maybe 4x4's for the edges since nobody here seems to sell 3x4's.
-- J.S.
I can try and find that APA paper about doubling studs. Or if you are only talking 1 or 2 places, I'd use 4x. We have a hard time getting 3x mudsill around here so we use 4x in its place when the engineer specs it, but I have to make extra sure that taller bolts go in.
I think you'll really like the Shear Wall book. I think I have about 4 or 5 copies. It's required reading for anyone who works for us who does any framing, otherwise they leave the shearwall building to us. I don't take that stuff lightly. For 1, its my (company) liability if we don't construct them correctly 2 it ain't that hard or expensive when you do it right and understand how do do it right
I hope you enjoy it. I think its very well written and it conncected a lot of dots in my mind. I'm no engineer, but at least I can converse with ours sometimes :-)
It's gonna be a bunch more than 1 or 2 places. My takeoff has 125 sheets of 4x8 Struct #1 1/2" ply. Studs I'll probably guess low and buy as I go, because I'll be finding and replacing an unknown amount of termite damage. Being a 1926 building, things aren't on precise 16" centers. That wasn't too important in the pre-sheetgoods era. So, if I get lucky, sistering an existing stud will work out for some of the edges.
If I have to "make" 3x4's out of pairs of 2x4's, I'd probaby do it as a bench job and glue them. A pair of 2x4's is cheaper than a 4x4, but probably not by enough to make economic sense. Not that I ever let economic sense interfere with how I do things.... ;-)
-- J.S.
Quick question Tim, I'm in CA and haven't seen a 3x (or double 2x) requirement (although I am only doing small residential remodels) for sheathing. Any idea where this comes from? I checked my CA UBC but didnt see it. Just curious..thanks!
It may be what that builders engineer spec'd. I really don't know any more than that, although if you browse around the APA's website you may find a paper or 2
Tim..could I rent that book from you? I just blew my book budget on the JLC CD's
I may have an extra copy. Shoot me an email with an address and I'll see if I can find one. It may not be in perfect shape though :-)
I was told to use doubled 2xs as a nailer when I did my sheathing. Of course, I was using 3/4" plywood.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
You say from teh bottom plate to teh top plate. What about over teh rim joist and sill?
Any home I've ever built here is on a slab.
What about splitting of the stud where the verticle seam is. I've seen studs split down their length from top to bottom where verticle plywood seems are nailed to it. You don't get much strength there. At least when you put up the sheathing horizontally the stud gets a little break from the heavy nailing.
I was told verticle. Something about more nails per sheet. Teh entire eight foot edge(s) gets nailed. ????????????
Wow it's amazing how many ways there are to frame. In these parts the sheeting is always horizontal with a space between the rows for moisture to escape should it ever get in. Both the plywood and OSB are directiopnal so that it is strongest spanning the stud cavaties. The only time I put sheathing vertically is on small radius curved walls with 3/8 ply. The two outer vaneers grain runs the length of the ply so you are only bending one veneer across the grain.
I wholeheartedly agree Garybuilt!
I know of one old guy that hired a carpener to install 3/8 exterior rs fir plywood under an 8' porch. He ran the plywood vertically without blocking. After a couple months, the ply warped horribly and had to be taken down and replaced. The old guy asked me about it. My first guess was that it was installed vertically without blocking.
Plywood is supposed to be installed horizontally, just like we all do on the roofs.
blue
You do it that way on the roofs so you can stand on it.
Imagine all the sheathing you use is ony 3 ply, two plys in the (long) strength direction and one (short) across. Now instead of those plys being made up of thin lyers of wood, imagine them being made up of 2x4's. While that piece of "plywood" is now 4.5" thick, you can easily see where the strength lies if you want to use it as a platform sheathing, like a roof. You want those two layers of 2x4 going across your rafters, not parallel with them.
On the other hand, a shear wall is a different critter all together. Instead of imagining that plywood made up of 2x4's, lets think of it scaled down. If you have a square block of wood, say 4"x4"x.5", and you can attach in a vice KNOWING you are going to hit the top edge of the block from the side with a BFH, would you attach it with the grain going verticly or horizontally?
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You probably - if you wanted the block to live - orient it verticly like Block B. Why? Because the forces you expect it to be subjected to put Block A at a disadvantage. All the force will travel down one of the weakest grains and shear split there in parallel to the force. If you hit it with 35lbs of force, and just one of the grains can only handle 34lbs of force it will fracture right there at the weakest link.
On the other hand, when you hit Block B it does put shear forces against the grains, but they all support one another. Even if you ran a couple of saw cuts with the grain of Block B, you would not significantly affect its ability to resist force in sideways shear. Think what would happen if you did that with Block A.
It may be more efficient to run them horizontally, with or without blocking. But if you need the walls to be strong then they must be run verticly. Just like you would with the blocks of wood.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
It may be more efficient to run them horizontally, with or without blocking. But if you need the walls to be strong then they must be run verticly. Just like you would with the blocks of wood.
Thank you for that visual on shear wall philosophy. I'm sure when I encounter the need, I'll delve into it with a lot more gusto. Your information is critical for those that build in shear wall territory.
Around here, I can build a house with 18' tall walls, with t-braces and 1/2" foam. Obviously we don't need "strong" walls, and therefore, my primary concern is applying the exterior substrate in a manner that will support the finished wall coverings. Horizontal applications of sheathing is superior to achive that goal. Vertical applications work fine too and when I peruse the manufacturers requirements for most sidings, I find that almost anything that we do meets their standards and the warranties will be warranted. Given that, my secondary goals are to be as efficient as possible in terms of material usage and the time to install them. Thus, I've reached the conclusion that I'm open to running the sheets both vertically and horizontally, or a combination thereof on each wall I do.
The only detail that can be argued is the need to stagger joints. Obviously, staggered joints are important in some situations and anytime I build a wall, I evaluate it to determine if staggered joints are a necessity or a luxury. I also make critical decisions regarding orientation on every wall too and evaluate every applicat in terms of strength issues first, then focus on speed and material usage second. That's what good carpentry is all about.
Getting back to staggering joints, the only argument for that would be that it would help to flatten out a wild stud that might have a slight bow to it. I guess it's fairly obvious that if that particular stud needed this little extra boost to straighten it out, it wouldn't be getting any help from a vertical application. With that thought in mind, I draw the conclusion that if vertical applications are allowed, then so are stacked joints. I make every effort to avoid stacking joints on roofs and floors, but have never given it too much thought on walls, except in those situations that I determine that staggering is critical for whatever various reasons the situation demands.
In a nutshell: don't toss away your retirement simply because the guys in California need shear wall applications.
blue
On walls the stress is in shear . Its different than a floor or roof where the OSB or ply takes on a load on the face of the pannel. Think about it this way...do you expect your plywood or OSB to hold up the roof? Of course not,thats why you have the 2x4s or 2x6 stud wall,not just plywood.
Diagnal works too. They all work! Now, gitterdone!
Please forgive me for the bossy speak. ;-)