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I am a cabinetmaker’s apprentice, and I am curious about all these particle board cabinets that the home improvement stores are selling. Surely they cannot be better than plywood but are they so popular? Is because they are so cheap when compared to custom build cabinets? Some where the quality of materials and workmanship has got to figure in. I have put some together, and I would be ashamed if my cabinet was as sloppy.
Does anyone know how long these cabinets can last in a kitchen or bathroom? The water and steam must reek havoc on the particle board.
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I'm surprised you even ask this question... since you should know the answers already.
Particle board - or melamine-coated board - or MDF - is more dimensionally stable than plywood. It doesn't contain any voids. It doesn't shown on the exterior, and is easier to clean. For the expected loads, it's quite sufficient. It's easy to work with. And it's vastly cheaper than plywood and veneer, so you can appeal to a larger segment of the market.
That being said, however, I prefer plywood or solid lumber myself, but I'm old-fashioned.
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Hi Tim, I assume you are talking about the cabinetry found in many of the home improvement stores. I once submitted a bid to a customer for some kitchen cabinetry that included an angled (45 degree) sink area. As I usually don't finish my own cabinets, the customer said he was going with some pre made cabs because they were finished and he felt the factory did a much better job of finishing than a local finisher could, plus I know the price was lower than what I had quoted him for mine. He did ask me to give him a price on installation, which I did.
When his units arrived, I went to do the install, but found that the angled area where the sink went consisted only of a face frame and two doors. When I asked the supplier where the rest of the unit was, they replied, that was all there was and I would have to furnish and construct the back, floor, nailers, and figure how to tie in the face frame with the other units. By the time I added my time and the extra materials required to complete the job, The price exceeded my original quote for custom built. Final point being, he ended up with cheap 1/2" particle board boxes that cost more than cabs that could have been built to his exacting requirements.
As for custom built units with melamine interiors as Frank LP mentioned. I have offered this option to several of my customers, and every one of them has chosen cabinet grade plywood for the casework rather than the above. One customer told me they didn't want melamine interiors because they didn't want there cabinets to be built along the same lines as those found in manufactured housing.
Though I don't agree with the above opinion, I pretty much make my suggestions as to what materials are available to them, but always let them make the final decision; after all, they are paying the bill. I can't say I agree about particle board or MDF being more stable than cabinet grade plywood, or having less voids. The plywoods that I use are very stable, and being a lumber core, there are no voids. It is more expensive than melamine, or MDF, but after all, most people want a custom built product to be built with quality products as well as craftsmanship. Sincerely, MDM.
*This has been tossed around here before, and there are several in the plywood camp. I am completely and totally in the particleboard camp; though there are a lot of times I have to use ply for one reason or another. Only the US in fact is still strong on ply; Canada and Europe largely use p.b for basic cabinet construction. Here are some of my reasons for preferring p.b or MDF cores. 1) I mostly build frameless cabinetry, and the tolerances are very exacting. I can build a more consistent cabinet out of p.b than ply because the material is flatter,and more consistent in thickness (by a huge degree; go measure ten sheets of 3/4 ply, in various places, and tell me what you come up with). And it is much more stable and warps less than ply. If you don't believe me, go check the tolerances permitted for deviation from flat for p.b and ply. The manufactureres associations make all the specs available if you go looking. As for warping; it comes warped, and it warps while you're cutting it. It makes it really difficult to build a superior cabinet. And I'm comparing p.b to Canadian ply, which is subject to higher quality standards then US ply; we get some of that too, and there is a difference.2) The veneered surface on p.b and MDF cores (if we are talking wood) is of a much higher quality than what I find on the best hardwood plys; way fewer ripples and sandthroughs because of inconsistencies in the substrate.3) melamine interiors for basic cabinetry are great; inexpensive, durable, easy to clean, and no finishing required (I hate spraying the insides of cabs, and rarely see it done well). What more could you want?4) stucturally, if the material fails, it's because the cabinetmaker screwed up in his application. The usual example is sagging shelves. Plywood sags too, and the architectural millwork specs (from AWI, and AWMAC, acknowledge this) Keep your spans a reasonable length, or add a solid lipping, or whatever, and you will have no problem.Plywood has two advantages; it's lighter, and it holds a screw better in some applications (although particleboard screws make up for most of the differential). For that reason, there are a lot of new sheet products on the market, with composite cores; there is one with lumber in the core, and MDF layers under the face veneer, so it is a little lighter, but flatter and more stable than traditional ply. My supplier has some other new ones I'm waiting to see, but the point is, the manufacturers recognise that traditional ply has inherent problems, and they are trying to come up with better solutions. The process is driven by cabinetmakers demanding better products.One last point; don't compare factory made, home centre cabinets with custom cabinetry just because they are both made with a similar (not neccessarily identical product). There are lines of crappy factory cabinets out there made out of ply as well (allows them to say they are 'all wood').
*Hi Adrian, Your point is very well taken. The cabinetry I build out here are face frame cabs. One problem I have experienced is selling a customer on melamine carcases. For some reason most of the people I have talked to don't seem to go for a white easy to clean interior. I don't know why. It just hasn't caught on much out here yet. Perhaps I need to work on being more convincing with my salesmanship. I couldn't agree more on not having to apply a finish to the interior and ease of keeping it clean. As I mentioned before I may make my suggestions, but go with the final decision of the customer. I don't really experience problems with plywood moving or warping much out here. One thing about the West Texas area is that it is a very arid climate and alot of the problems associated with wood products and humidity are not as critical here. It's interesting how supplies and techniques vary in different areas of the country. The product that I use the most for carcases is a 23/32" lumber core plywood material known as Virola. It's very reasonably priced and comes from South America. MDM
*Intellectually I have to agree with everything Adrian says about pb and mdf cores. The problem is that there is a stigma attatched to pb that often goes unsaid. Customers think "...it's not as good a cabinet. It's cheaper, so it's not as good..." I think that's mostly ignorance but it's a reality nonetheless. I think SOME customers will know the value of melamine and some will associate it with cheap stuff because they see it at the home centers. My solution is to offer the cabinets either way. Give them the price differences and answer any questions they have about either method. Then build what the customer wants. That is the essence of "custom" work, isn't it, giving the customer what they want?
*JB & MDM; you both make good points also, and I do build what the client wants. If they want ply, there you go, they get ply. Most of my projects include a combination of pb/MDF, ply, and solid wood, anyway, as I don't always get my druthers when it comes to thickness, sheet size, availability or whatever. I'll add one more point I forgot before, then step down from the soapbox. The other thing I like about pb/MDF is that you get a perfect, straight line when it's sawn, os if you are adding a solid wood edge or whatever, you can get a clean joint. I've never seen it done as well with ply.as far as Jim's point about the perception of the composite products, that's why I keep sounding off on these topics, just to give a 'for' opinion. And if the builder believes in the product, he can sell anything. And to eventually convert Mongo to my way of thinking.
*Commercial cabinetry seems to be heavily slanted towards 5/8 or 3/4 melamine covered, frameless carcasses, with p-lam skins over faces and exposed edges. Cabinet builders change the specs to plywood when structural requirements necessitate. The only way I can make good money bulding cabinets is to make a one of kind cabinet for a commercial client. I would be interested in hearing how you full time cabinet guys build your particle board core cabinets as the rabbets and dados of plywood joinery seem to be less than ideal for pb.joe d
*In my world, particle board and MDF would be banned.As well as fingered jointed lumber...but that's another issue.Ed. Williams
*Joe, I use very little pb for cabinetry but your right about dado and rabbet joinery not being ideal. When you dado pb you cut thru the strongest part of the board, the first 1/8" or so on both faces is much denser than the center, you can easily see this on the edge of the sheet. I've had good luck with staples combined with screws [definatly not drywall screws] for unexposed ends and biscuits for exposed stuff. If I did much pb I'd use the staple and screw method everywhere and use applied ends or laminate skins over the finished ends, lots faster than bisciuts and clamps. One of my main gripes with melamine is the weight, and avoiding chipping on the bottom side on the table saw. I sure dont use enough to justify a scoring saw. Chuck
*Hi Ed, I was wondering what kind of problems you've experienced with finger jointed lumber or trim? What product do you use for trim when the final finish will be paint rather than stain?
*Mad Dog,For interior "off the rack" trim, I always order A grade. I've had FJ fall apart on me at the joint. I've seen less than ideal builders use this stuff for exterior cornice. Bad idea. I always prefer solid stock mouldings over FJ, anytime. As far as interior paint grade lumber goes, poplar, white pine, magnolia, mahogany or maple paint up fine. Walnut does too, and around here, it's cheaper than white pine.Ed. Williams
*I see your point Ed,especially on outside usage. Come to think of it, I've ad a stick of FJ moulding come apart ay the joint from time to time. I do like poplar for paint grade and believe it's a little more stable than pine.
*Love poplar. I always worry that finger joints will telegraph through paint.
*FWIW, I have been using FJ poplar on interior trim on every job for quite a few years. I love it. Of course I wouldn't use FJ outside, but for interior trim it works great. I have had joints break on me a few times but fewer times than I have found a piece of clear poplar that was warped too badly to use. Never had a problem with the joints showing unless the painter is a hack.
*Back to the original question, the healthy home building folks prefer plywood to particle board, as the particle board is higher in VOCs (Volatile Organic Compounds) and the associated offgassing. I don't see VOCs as a deciding factor, just another element in the equation.
*Hi Ed . I hate that finger joint stuff also. Went to the lumber yard to get some 1x6 oak ,it was two 1x3s glued up and finger jointed about every 12 to18 inches . Left that crap there .
*I've been reading the discussion about the pros and cons of melamine and MDF on this and other threads for sometime now. The same thought always occurs to me, you people are trying to use this material without understanding the system it was developed for. I have been using melamine in making cabinets since 1984. At that time in Houston only the finest of European cabinetry was made from it. This product was developed in post WW2 Europe and a whole system of fasteners and fittings has developed in response. These fittings and fasteners are not only designed to allow greater speed in manufacture but also greater accuracy. Try reading books on the techniques of using this material in the way it was designed and I know you will come away with a different outlook. I not only use mela/MDF in euro-style but in traditional style as well. As for dados and rabbets--don't do it, thats what plate jointers where invented for. Bill Swales
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Mr. Swales, I would appreciate any information concerning educational or instructional materials dealing with melamine and construction techniques. This might help clear up some of my confusion with this product.
*Thanks guys. These messages have really helped out alot. My main concern though is the longevity of particle board. How long can a set of cabinets be epected to last? For that matter what is a good estimate of how long a kitchen is expected to last. Some where I heard 18 years but I cannot remember where at. What a out the strenght of the finished cabinet. Some of this stuff used is only a half inch thich. How severly does this limit the type of countertops that can go on these cabintes?
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Yup...
That's where the frameless euro-style came from. It's pretty much all designed as knock-down cabinetry. In much of Europe, when you move, you break down and take your cabinets with you as well.
Frameless is not quite the built-in, face-frame look that I prefer, but it works for those interested in a more contemporary design. Regardless of it's quality though, I'm still biased against melamine with it's bright, white, shiny surface, even in a face-frame design. Personally, I like framed cabinets and fully inset doors. I'm not slamming the product, it's just not what I prefer to use.
To me, euro vs face-framed cabinetry is not an issue of quality. Both can be built to a high degree of quality. Most lower-end cabinetry that I have seen, however, runs toward a euro-style with overlap doors. It's inherently easier, faster, and requires less precision. When done well, however, it can look quite nice.
*That's an interesting observation,i "In much of Europe, when you move, you break down and take your cabinets with you as well."As an European- true, living in the US, and a cabinetmaker, I've never broken down my cabinets and moved them with me. I don't know any other Europeans that have done either. Most of the stuff made out of chipboard or particle board everyone knows isn't worth breaking down because it never goes back together correctly a second time, even if you were lucky enough to be able to assemble it something like the first time! It frequently just gets left behind, for it's often not worth the bother, especially if it's attached to a wall.
*I have seen instances in Frankfurt, Germany, where apartments lacked virtually all fixtures, including sinks and toilets, and this wasn't considered unusual. The tenant "furnished" the apartment, then made the decision on taking it along afterward. Something to do with their screwy personal property taxation policies. I guess it's a matter of one's experiences.
*I guess we islanders to the west of mainland Europe are different to some of our continental neighbours! I've heard the statement before, puzzled over it, and I've never experienced walking into an empty house in the UK as you describe.
*Fellow melamine users and detractorsYou are not limited to gloss white. Check with your supplier for colors and panel sizes. This bit of product info may be useful in your cabinet business.http://www.industrialdimensions.com/thermal.htmlComments? Ralph
*Timothy; with respect, I think if you want more info, you should seek out one of several good cabinetmakers forums. This is basically a homebuilding forum, and while cabinets do come up, and a few of us are cabinetmakers, you will probably end up with a skewed picture of your profession. I know you have posted this question at Knots, and that is also a good forum, but the community there is largely hobbyist furnituremakers. Plus, we're all set in our ways. I think you need the perspective of a larger sampling of professional cabinetmakers . Try the Woodexplorer forum for Cabinetmaker magazine (just do a search),that's the best cabinetmaker forum going by far, or the Woodworking and Cabinetmaking forums at http://www.woodweb.com (the cabinetmaking one is new).As far as the panel thickness goes, cabinets are engineered for specific purposes and shop practices. There are dozens of acceptable ways to make a cabinet; one shop may use 1/2" material in a certain way. Another shop may use 3/4" and vary the design somewhat. Everyone uses different joinery techniques, and the requirements for residential and commercial may be completely different. Start checking out the forums I mentined above, and you will start to get an idea of how wide ranging this trade is.BTW, when you say you are an apprentice, does that mean you are learning on the job, or are you doing some school time as well and someone is responsible for teaching you this stuff? You may want to look into trade school, if you aren't doing it all already, and if you are serious about learning. This is a big part of what you need to learn.
*Yeah; I have a bid in now on a casino job. Melamine cabs with a pearwood pattern, doors and drawer fronts in p/lam matched to the melamine. There are all kinds of programs to match melamine, p/lam, and edgetape. The wood patterns are pretty useful.
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Go into a house with p-board cabinets, open the cabinet under the sink, get on the floor and look up. If its over a year old its probably swelling and breaking apart.
Make the sink cabinet out of plywood at least! I know, its the plumbers fault, but what can you do about that? I've never seen a kitchen where parts of the cabinets dont get wet at some point.
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Good Question:
I have a very close friend who operates a large custom cabinet shop. Virtually all his work is MDF. I posed your question to him and this was his response:
1. MDF is easier to saw and mill than any form of plywood.
2. MDF has no voids like most plywood (except baltic birch) has
3. MDF paints better, for paint grade cabinets
4. MDF veneers better for stain grade cabinets
5. Shelf hole pins are stronger in MDF than plywood
Of course, I perfer plywood (baltic birch is my favorite, but at $70 a sheet, ouch!!), but his comments did make me think.
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To Tim Belton:
Water and steam can indeed affect particle board, however if the edges are properly sealed and not in direct contact with water, you should get years of satisfactory service out of the cabinets. In my experience, doors and hardware will determine cabinet life-span more than the carcass itself.
As an occasional cabinet builder I find that a plywood carcass is superior to one made of "particle board". Superior in the sense of strong glue bonds, good screw "grab" (hinges and so forth), good finish-holding capabilities, and less prone to chipping during transport and site preparation work.
Possibly because most cabinets sides are hidden from direct view, "particle board" is the popular, relatively inexpensive material of choice.
Since YOU plan to make the cabines, implying your cost will exceed what can be bought factory-ready, I suggest you allow material quality rather than price to guide you in material selection.
Mel
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I am a cabinetmaker's apprentice, and I am curious about all these particle board cabinets that the home improvement stores are selling. Surely they cannot be better than plywood but are they so popular? Is because they are so cheap when compared to custom build cabinets? Some where the quality of materials and workmanship has got to figure in. I have put some together, and I would be ashamed if my cabinet was as sloppy.
Does anyone know how long these cabinets can last in a kitchen or bathroom? The water and steam must reek havoc on the particle board.
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A Great Topic! As an apprentice myself 27 years ago I started out using only plywood for cabinetry. As it started to get harder and harder to find good plywood (poplar substrates, minimum voids, zero delamination of veneer)I started to explore melamine both with particle board and MDF substrates. See FHB #99 Working With Melamine. Now I'm a "born again" melamine user!
Todays technology allows us to cut this two sided material with ease. Freud even makes a circular saw blade, when used with a zero-clearance shoe, will cut melamine without chipping. New router bits just invented in the early 90's (up/down compression spirals) make cutting this material a breeze.
For kitchens I'd recommend melamine interiors everywhere except the sink base cabinet. Plywood here. Bathroom cabinetry should follow the same rule. Water and melamine's substrate don't get along.
To answer your question, depending on the price of a pre-manufactured unit, what you may be seeing is cabinetry with a particle board substrate and foil overlay. Beware of this material. It doesn't hold up or is as waterproof as thermofused melamine. A foil is glued to the surface where thermofused melamine is heated and pressed into the surface, actually becoming part of the substrate.